I think this is partly rooted in the fact that at launch STO wasn't a typical MMO and attracted many players who only came because of Star Trek, but who weren't otherwise interested in MMOs. And then they stayed because there simply are no other games with core mechanics that are comparable to STO's capital ship space combat.
I don't really want an MMO with gear progression. I'd be totally happy if there was a game that uses STO's space mechanics (of the S1.2 variety) as a foundation and provides a mixture of FIFA and Unreal Tournament as game types.
I totally agree with Mancom. I'm one of those players that came because it was Star Trek. STO was my first MMO and I hate how it has become so grind oriented.
I have played GW2, and I love the way you can PvP from day 1 and do as much, or as little, PvE as you like. That's the kind of experience I would love to have in STO.
It's the whole point of a forum, to express both negative and positive points of view :eek:
Yes, but everyone's made their point. You like VPvP, or you don't. No need to clog up the thread with redundant points trying to convince the people having fun that they aren't.
There's also a "reward component" in MMOs. When you set up for doing something, you get like "dang, I must try that!". When you finally achieve in your goal, getting what you need for your ship, it feels rewarding. You like the idea that it's your build, one that took time, experimenting, even worked for it.
If I'd get straight away a Scimitar, all the equipment, bridge officers, duty officers... I don't feel it when I'm piloting it. Instead, it took me a whopping five months to find out the very perfect build that fit me. It felt... just so good. Probably I was the happiest player for a day. I don't call the time it took me to buy it with dilithium. I wanted it, I set up for it, and made it.
I can't see the fun in an environment where I get everything on a silver dish.
I have the opposite view point: I see something interesting and I know I'll do something fun with it. Then I do the math and I see I'd have to pay $XX or grind for 2 months. If I really want it, I'll pay (and most often I come to regret paying later), but I'll never grind for it because I feel my time is better spent doing something more interesting.
For me this is a game, not a job, and the few hours per day I can devote to gaming I don't want to spend grinding.
So yeah, give it to me on a silver dish so I can have fun with it and don't make me work for it needlessly. Anyways in 2 months a new better thing will come out, so there's no reward to grinding because it's endless.
I can't see the fun in an environment where I get everything on a silver dish.
Different people enjoy different things. Personally I would rather splash the cash than grind, I cannot see the point in grinding for the pittance Dil gets (what, half a cent now an hour now?) when I am paid many, many, many multiples of that for my time in RL.
Just saying, and i'll say again, MMO's have changing meta, where thing become horrible unbalanced, and other become obsolete. My point is that this channel is going directly against that. People here don't want to venture out and try new things when they come out. They want a constant meta, and a constant playing field in which to perform this all.
You are missing the point. That channel is filled with veterans who have no problems "adapting" to whatever meta there may be out there. There is a hefty price tag attached to be part of an unrestriceted meta game play. To upgrade your gear from MK XII VR to MK XIII VR on one PvP toon alone costs about 200k DIL and 150m EC. Gear for vPvP costs about 5 to 10m EC max.
VPvP seems a bit out of touch with what an MMO is all about.
I simply prefer to both use an adapt, to new content.
In the past, adapting meant switching out some gear and bridge officers.
Nowadays, some people seem to think adapting means opening up the wallet, pouring in hundreds of dollars to get the R&D science school to Level 15, to buy a golden Exciter console with double-PrtG modifier then call it a day. But that is not really adapting.
I agree that every multiplayer game should have vanilla mode. In fact in most FPS games such modes are most popular.
What would do wonders for STO PvP, however, is not a vanilla mode but rather custom games, where game "host" can make a server/room with his rules, so a simple expansion to current challenge system.
Along with lack of custom games, biggest problem in PvP right now is lack of PvP balancing based on gear/stats.
All gear these days seems to balanced around PvE modes. read: Average Joe's ability to kill Elite NPCs.
Not logged in atm but gonna try to catch a mod a bit later this evening for channel invite.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." Q Join the 44th Fleet. [FED and KDF] Apply Online: startrek.44thfleet.com
This also raises the associated questions why Marauding Force (requires the T5 C-Store flight deck cruiser) and Orion Interceptors (requires the T3 C-Store flight deck cruiser) are allowed.
I had the same conclusion, but didnt want to distract from my original question. However, since this has happened due to another kind of discussion inthis thread, I boost my original question again to get some answers. (also because I wanna try a Vo'quv with syphons)
I had the same conclusion, but didnt want to distract from my original question. However, since this has happened due to another kind of discussion inthis thread, I boost my original question again to get some answers. (also because I wanna try a Vo'quv with syphons)
I missed those when I copied Aelwin's list. I'll fix the pets section.
What's your opinion on a GW2-style PVP experience where you get access to all available gear at no cost? Is that something you would like because it reduces the entry barrier for high-end builds and increases competition, or is it something you wouldn't want because it allows players to copy your builds without grinding/paying for it?
I like this idea, and enjoy gw2 pvp, as do a lot of people. I would wager the ratio of pve:pvp players in gw2 is exponentially greater then in sto, because of the accessibility granted by the competitive arena style gameplay that the equalized system promotes.
As to the idea that grinding and commitment or investment should be rewarded, it acually is in gw2 because not all pvp is equalized. GW2's wvw pvp does permit you to have superior gear to other people. This flavor of pvp could be possible in any game, the real problem with this idea is that sto is a f2p micro transaction game, and providing people with all the toys they could ever want wouldnt really make much money.
I have some hope (albiet little) that sto is moving in the right direction though with the introduction of the PVP mod on weapons in the crafting system. This mod indicates that is it possible for Cryptic to have their game's mechanics vary between pve and pvp content, which is sorely needed. The style of gameplay in pve (5 vs hundreds) does not translate well in a 5 on 5 scenario we end up with a game with 100 different shafts of light, invisible clouds of irrenderable particle fog, and none of it makes sense. Also there are some skills that work fine in pve that are just silly overpowered in pvp, like feedback pulse, which doesent one shot anything in pve (because that would be game breaking) but most certainly can in pvp, especially when it is deployed against someone who is already commited to their firing cycle. They can easily deselect their target or prevent their next firing cycle, but they could do nothing about the firing cycle in progress, making fbp an instant 'I win' button. - Fbp could have its mechanics changed for pvp, reducing the scope of the penalty from 'you die in one shot because you shot at me' to 'you take damage if you shoot at me' - or better yet, your weapons are offline, or you lose a whole lot of weapon power for shooting at me. - You can pick your own nemesis skill and imagine how it works in pve but not in pvp.
GG to those in my first T5 2v2 match. Well dione all. Look forward to much more for 'Ferengi entertainment node credits' only.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." Q Join the 44th Fleet. [FED and KDF] Apply Online: startrek.44thfleet.com
This also raises the associated questions why Marauding Force (requires the T5 C-Store flight deck cruiser) and Orion Interceptors (requires the T3 C-Store flight deck cruiser) are allowed.
I don't chase the meta at all. I really don't care about what the current meta is. I create builds that usually are way off the meta, and i still do well in PVP.
I still find this Vanilla PVP abit off... i mean, i get it if it was as a way to "ease people" into pvp, but thats about it. Not only will this way of thinking reduce cryptic's income, it will also basicly remove alot of the diversity that has been introduced into the game.
And remember, the less money cryptic earns.. the higher the chances are that we would never ever get any love towards PVP. And encouraging people to not spend money on this game, is the same of killing any chances for cryptic to ever gives us some love...
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
they can copy the build all they want; they can't copy the skill required to use it
Well said Shadow.
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
1) you guys are assuming that people who do VPvP don't do normal PvP. Most all the people I see in VPvP also hit up the queues, play tournaments, and run in premades. Some of them are even some of the best players in the game.
2) When someone says they don't like your play style, you guys say you can play as you want. This is 100% correct. No one in VPvP is telling you to not run clickies or circle someone with FAW or spam warp poo and TBR. Always play as you want, but don't come here and complain that someone is playing different. I'm actually surprised that you guys are complaining at all since VPvP is obviously optional. The people who have joined VPvP just want to play the game differently than you.
3) If you don't like VPvP it's totally fine. I just don't undersand your need to complain about it.
Getting people to stop spending time and money on a game, would essentially be the same as killing the game. Remember Cryptic needs players to spend money on the game to defend for its existence.
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
If that MO worked, we would not be in this situation in the first place - The devs do not care about PvP, only about the money we continually dump into drip fed "progression".
VPvP is one step of many possible steps in that direction, with it's primary aim of reducing the stupid power creep we've seen, which is so costly in time or money a new player might never catch up - add up all the EC, the Dil, the Zen, the Master Keys, the time - is this really what we want?
It is up to us to make PvP work for ourselves, no one else will do it for us. And if we take no action to help ourselves we can all see where it ends.
If you don't like VPvP, you can simply choose to respectfully stop posting here instead of trying to convince us thay we don't like it.
Which means, in no uncertain terms, you (the people who don't like VPvP) don't need to keep posting here.
You know that getting people to not thrive for the new glittering items, would be the same as killing the game slowly....
Ofcourse i would raise my voice against this. And i have a right to do so.
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
If that MO worked, we would not be in this situation in the first place - The devs do not care about PvP, only about the money we continually dump into drip fed "progression".
VPvP is one step of many possible steps in that direction, with it's primary aim of reducing the stupid power creep we've seen, which is so costly in time or money a new player might never catch up - add up all the EC, the Dil, the Zen, the Master Keys, the time - is this really what we want?
It is up to us to make PvP work for ourselves, no one else will do it for us. And if we take no action to help ourselves we can all see where it ends.
Thriving towards getting the new glittering items has been and will still what an MMO should be about. Also STO has given its players a very unique diversity of how you can build your character/ship. This is the only game i know of, that provides this. I would rather have a powercreep to "fight against", than loosing the endless potential of builds that can be created in STO. If you compare to for example games like WoW - virtually everyone has the same talent builds... and this is booooooring. No place for experimenting with how to setup your character, its that one only way, or you loose... not in STO - here you can setup your build in so many ways and stil be powerful in pvp.
Vanilla PVP goes against this uniqiue feature that STO provides for me.
If everyone did this... it would more or less kill the game.. and personally im having to much fun in this game to see it die any time soon. Also like i replied to people earlyer, getting people to not spend any money on the game, wouldnt give cryptic any insentives towards ever giving PVP any love.. it could also slowly kill the game...
Why are trying to kill the game man? it makes me sad...
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
Cryptic say pvp'rs are very low number, so if pvp'rs stop spending money it makes no difference.
With this attitude, ofcourse it would make no difference...
Also in most F2P models, there are usually like 5% of the playerbase that provide 90% of the games income... cryptic has no way of determening who is a pvp player and who is not... So my bet is that PVP'ers would make up alot of that 5%...
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
You know that getting people to not thrive for the new glittering items, would be the same as killing the game slowly....
Ofcourse i would raise my voice against this. And i have a right to do so.
Interesting that you equate buying items that actively make the game worse, to making it better. I own almost all the c-store ship costume packs (from when you could actually buy them). That's a model I agree with. You pay money to get cosmetic upgrades but in the arena everybody's on an even playing field.
Furthermore, if cryptic were to introduce a PvP mode of some sort without gear progression and with a leaderboard, I would resubscribe in a heart beat.
.The Spanish Inquisition. TSI -- Star Trek Online PvP Vidoes (Youtube) /channel_join OrganizedPVP If you are interested in learning PVP, looking for a team, or a private match.
Sad Pandas PvP - Starfleet Dental Member - Lag Industries Leader
--
"What a time it was, with all the world against us, what a time it was... When all we did seemed wrong,
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
And remember, the less money cryptic earns.. the higher the chances are that we would never ever get any love towards PVP. And encouraging people to not spend money on this game, is the same of killing any chances for cryptic to ever gives us some love...
That's quite a bold statement.
Think of it this way: You give lots of money to Cryptic while they are ignoring PVP. Cryptic wants more money and in the process risk as little as possible, so naturally they will go for a "more of the same" approach: more adventure zones, more c-store ships, more lockboxes, a special episode with a prominent voice actor every couple of months.
Why would they change their approach to PVP as long as they are making boatloads of money with their current strategy? If on the other hand PVPers really constitute a big part of the whales, as you yourself suggested, then wouldn't stopping the cashflow send a much stronger signal that the current PVE-only approach is not the right way?
Comments
I totally agree with Mancom. I'm one of those players that came because it was Star Trek. STO was my first MMO and I hate how it has become so grind oriented.
I have played GW2, and I love the way you can PvP from day 1 and do as much, or as little, PvE as you like. That's the kind of experience I would love to have in STO.
Which means, in no uncertain terms, you (the people who don't like VPvP) don't need to keep posting here.
I think you do not understand me correctly.
Which is better ??
Wins the team with the better skills or the team with the better buttons and equipment ?
For my part, i like the first version, which is to win with the better skills, not who has the better P2W buttons.
This does not mean that I do not "normal" PvP games, find the other only interesting because it is simply fair and sporting.
regards
*** R.I.P. ***
It's the whole point of a forum, to express both negative and positive points of view :eek:
Yes, but everyone's made their point. You like VPvP, or you don't. No need to clog up the thread with redundant points trying to convince the people having fun that they aren't.
I have the opposite view point: I see something interesting and I know I'll do something fun with it. Then I do the math and I see I'd have to pay $XX or grind for 2 months. If I really want it, I'll pay (and most often I come to regret paying later), but I'll never grind for it because I feel my time is better spent doing something more interesting.
For me this is a game, not a job, and the few hours per day I can devote to gaming I don't want to spend grinding.
So yeah, give it to me on a silver dish so I can have fun with it and don't make me work for it needlessly. Anyways in 2 months a new better thing will come out, so there's no reward to grinding because it's endless.
Different people enjoy different things. Personally I would rather splash the cash than grind, I cannot see the point in grinding for the pittance Dil gets (what, half a cent now an hour now?) when I am paid many, many, many multiples of that for my time in RL.
And I thought the whole point to play a video game is to have fun.
You are missing the point. That channel is filled with veterans who have no problems "adapting" to whatever meta there may be out there. There is a hefty price tag attached to be part of an unrestriceted meta game play. To upgrade your gear from MK XII VR to MK XIII VR on one PvP toon alone costs about 200k DIL and 150m EC. Gear for vPvP costs about 5 to 10m EC max.
In the past, adapting meant switching out some gear and bridge officers.
Nowadays, some people seem to think adapting means opening up the wallet, pouring in hundreds of dollars to get the R&D science school to Level 15, to buy a golden Exciter console with double-PrtG modifier then call it a day. But that is not really adapting.
In a game like this the concept of Skill lies in the eye of the beholder. vPvP is not necessarily more "skillful" (whatever that means).
It's different. And believe it or not, it's more fun to play in such an environment for some people. Consider it a time travel to previous seasons.
What would do wonders for STO PvP, however, is not a vanilla mode but rather custom games, where game "host" can make a server/room with his rules, so a simple expansion to current challenge system.
Along with lack of custom games, biggest problem in PvP right now is lack of PvP balancing based on gear/stats.
All gear these days seems to balanced around PvE modes. read: Average Joe's ability to kill Elite NPCs.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
Join the 44th Fleet. [FED and KDF] Apply Online: startrek.44thfleet.com
I had the same conclusion, but didnt want to distract from my original question. However, since this has happened due to another kind of discussion inthis thread, I boost my original question again to get some answers. (also because I wanna try a Vo'quv with syphons)
@rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
@rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
@rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
I missed those when I copied Aelwin's list. I'll fix the pets section.
I like this idea, and enjoy gw2 pvp, as do a lot of people. I would wager the ratio of pve:pvp players in gw2 is exponentially greater then in sto, because of the accessibility granted by the competitive arena style gameplay that the equalized system promotes.
As to the idea that grinding and commitment or investment should be rewarded, it acually is in gw2 because not all pvp is equalized. GW2's wvw pvp does permit you to have superior gear to other people. This flavor of pvp could be possible in any game, the real problem with this idea is that sto is a f2p micro transaction game, and providing people with all the toys they could ever want wouldnt really make much money.
I have some hope (albiet little) that sto is moving in the right direction though with the introduction of the PVP mod on weapons in the crafting system. This mod indicates that is it possible for Cryptic to have their game's mechanics vary between pve and pvp content, which is sorely needed. The style of gameplay in pve (5 vs hundreds) does not translate well in a 5 on 5 scenario we end up with a game with 100 different shafts of light, invisible clouds of irrenderable particle fog, and none of it makes sense. Also there are some skills that work fine in pve that are just silly overpowered in pvp, like feedback pulse, which doesent one shot anything in pve (because that would be game breaking) but most certainly can in pvp, especially when it is deployed against someone who is already commited to their firing cycle. They can easily deselect their target or prevent their next firing cycle, but they could do nothing about the firing cycle in progress, making fbp an instant 'I win' button. - Fbp could have its mechanics changed for pvp, reducing the scope of the penalty from 'you die in one shot because you shot at me' to 'you take damage if you shoot at me' - or better yet, your weapons are offline, or you lose a whole lot of weapon power for shooting at me. - You can pick your own nemesis skill and imagine how it works in pve but not in pvp.
Join the 44th Fleet. [FED and KDF] Apply Online: startrek.44thfleet.com
I did specifically ask you to look the pets over ... :P
... but I'll accept the responsibility nonetheless ...
Naw, I just missed it when I looked it over. I'm not terribly familiar with KDF pets.
I don't chase the meta at all. I really don't care about what the current meta is. I create builds that usually are way off the meta, and i still do well in PVP.
I still find this Vanilla PVP abit off... i mean, i get it if it was as a way to "ease people" into pvp, but thats about it. Not only will this way of thinking reduce cryptic's income, it will also basicly remove alot of the diversity that has been introduced into the game.
And remember, the less money cryptic earns.. the higher the chances are that we would never ever get any love towards PVP. And encouraging people to not spend money on this game, is the same of killing any chances for cryptic to ever gives us some love...
Well said Shadow.
Getting people to stop spending time and money on a game, would essentially be the same as killing the game. Remember Cryptic needs players to spend money on the game to defend for its existence.
VPvP is one step of many possible steps in that direction, with it's primary aim of reducing the stupid power creep we've seen, which is so costly in time or money a new player might never catch up - add up all the EC, the Dil, the Zen, the Master Keys, the time - is this really what we want?
It is up to us to make PvP work for ourselves, no one else will do it for us. And if we take no action to help ourselves we can all see where it ends.
You know that getting people to not thrive for the new glittering items, would be the same as killing the game slowly....
Ofcourse i would raise my voice against this. And i have a right to do so.
Cryptic say pvp'rs are very low number, so if pvp'rs stop spending money it makes no difference.
Thriving towards getting the new glittering items has been and will still what an MMO should be about. Also STO has given its players a very unique diversity of how you can build your character/ship. This is the only game i know of, that provides this. I would rather have a powercreep to "fight against", than loosing the endless potential of builds that can be created in STO. If you compare to for example games like WoW - virtually everyone has the same talent builds... and this is booooooring. No place for experimenting with how to setup your character, its that one only way, or you loose... not in STO - here you can setup your build in so many ways and stil be powerful in pvp.
Vanilla PVP goes against this uniqiue feature that STO provides for me.
If everyone did this... it would more or less kill the game.. and personally im having to much fun in this game to see it die any time soon. Also like i replied to people earlyer, getting people to not spend any money on the game, wouldnt give cryptic any insentives towards ever giving PVP any love.. it could also slowly kill the game...
Why are trying to kill the game man? it makes me sad...
With this attitude, ofcourse it would make no difference...
Also in most F2P models, there are usually like 5% of the playerbase that provide 90% of the games income... cryptic has no way of determening who is a pvp player and who is not... So my bet is that PVP'ers would make up alot of that 5%...
Interesting that you equate buying items that actively make the game worse, to making it better. I own almost all the c-store ship costume packs (from when you could actually buy them). That's a model I agree with. You pay money to get cosmetic upgrades but in the arena everybody's on an even playing field.
Furthermore, if cryptic were to introduce a PvP mode of some sort without gear progression and with a leaderboard, I would resubscribe in a heart beat.
TSI -- Star Trek Online PvP Vidoes (Youtube)
/channel_join OrganizedPVP If you are interested in learning PVP, looking for a team, or a private match.
that ensign uni is bugged, tractor beam in there
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
Think of it this way: You give lots of money to Cryptic while they are ignoring PVP. Cryptic wants more money and in the process risk as little as possible, so naturally they will go for a "more of the same" approach: more adventure zones, more c-store ships, more lockboxes, a special episode with a prominent voice actor every couple of months.
Why would they change their approach to PVP as long as they are making boatloads of money with their current strategy? If on the other hand PVPers really constitute a big part of the whales, as you yourself suggested, then wouldn't stopping the cashflow send a much stronger signal that the current PVE-only approach is not the right way?