Yes, as I said, VOY had its' flaws. But it's still my most favorite Trek show, regardless & that ain't gonna change.
Heh.
I gave up on Voyager once the ostensibly Mayan Chakotay said something about tepees and vision quests. I was already stretched to the breaking point with Ensign Generic and Neelix and the totally not racist at all treatment of the mostly dark-skinned Kazon as opposed to the Caucasian Ocampa, and the Kazon in general, and the biology fail of the Ocampa, and Neelix in general, and Janeway being an incompetent Sue, and nobody at all listening to Tuvok even though he was the only one making any sense at all, and the fact that Ms. Chief Engineer Klingon Rage could not identify manure with a tricorder.
I decided I hated Voyager more than seasons 1-3 of Enterprise when I was subjected to "Threshold" on a bet.
I gave up on Voyager once the ostensibly Mayan Chakotay said something about tepees and vision quests. I was already stretched to the breaking point with Ensign Generic and Neelix and the totally not racist at all treatment of the mostly dark-skinned Kazon as opposed to the Caucasian Ocampa, and the Kazon in general, and the biology fail of the Ocampa, and Neelix in general, and Janeway being an incompetent Sue, and nobody at all listening to Tuvok even though he was the only one making any sense at all, and the fact that Ms. Chief Engineer Klingon Rage could not identify manure with a tricorder.
I decided I hated Voyager more than seasons 1-3 of Enterprise when I was subjected to "Threshold" on a bet.
But TEHO, I guess.
That's the first time i hear/read this. I never had the idea of the Kazon/Ocampa relation being in any way related to racism.
Interesting point of view. But also strange, a bit exaggerated and bizarre though.
100% agreement to the rest.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
That's the first time i hear/read this. I never had the idea of the Kazon/Ocampa relation being in any way related to racism.
Interesting point of view. But also strange, a bit exaggerated and bizarre though.
100% agreement to the rest.
It was just...the obvious "street gang" vibe of the Kazon, which apparently the writers were actually aiming for, plus the dark-skinned, big-hairdoed Kazon, plus the Caucasian, predominantly blond Ocampa, combined to form a really offensive racist stereotype.
Just rewatch "Caretaker", and any other episodes that deal with Ocampa or Kazon.
But yeah, I linked to some of the more fundamental Neelix fails earlier in the thread.
It was just...the obvious "street gang" vibe of the Kazon, which apparently the writers were actually aiming for, plus the dark-skinned, big-hairdoed Kazon, plus the Caucasian, predominantly blond Ocampa, combined to form a really offensive racist stereotype.
Just rewatch "Caretaker", and any other episodes that deal with Ocampa or Kazon.
But yeah, I linked to some of the more fundamental Neelix fails earlier in the thread.
Truthfully? I have to call that a success. You're supposed to dislike the Kazon. But like the other guy said, you're reading into it... a lot.
and where did you get the "ostensibly Mayan" idea? He always struck me as being more like a Navaho.... (or Hopi) the only thing that really connects him to Central America at all is that thing with the "Rubber Tree People"... and that's kinda vague.
Truthfully? I have to call that a success. You're supposed to dislike the Kazon. But like the other guy said, you're reading into it... a lot.
and where did you get the "ostensibly Mayan" idea? He always struck me as being more like a Navaho....
Heh. I may be reading a lot into it, but being a history buff, I am VERY leery of racism of all stripes.
And I DO hate the Kazon. But for the wrong reasons.
IIRC Chakotay is explicitly stated to be Mayan at some point. The fact remains that the consultant the writers got to ensure they were writing their token Native American properly was a legendary faker with no actual Native American heritage or knowledge beyond that common in popular culture.
Sorry, but I didn't get the whole Khazon / Ocampa storyline as being racist in the least. Throwing the term racist out there has lost it's potency, because anytime people disagree with one another, accusations of racism are levied.
We see what we want to see in works of art. They're all relative. If you're convinced that the Khazon were an allegory to a specific human race, maybe you need to meditate on your own heart before accusing others.
Sorry, but I didn't get the whole Khazon / Ocampa storyline as being racist in the least. Throwing the term racist out there has lost it's potency, because anytime people disagree with one another, accusations of racism are levied.
We see what we want to see in works of art. They're all relative. If you're convinced that the Khazon were an allegory to a specific human race, maybe you need to meditate on your own heart before accusing others.
Having had a number of encounters with annoying racists who had the very stereotype of African-Americans in general that I referenced, I disagree with you 100%.
Doesn't change the fact that I have had a racist idiot on a train LITERALLY complain at me for thirty minutes about "them darky boys" and their "gangsta hair, like them Cruton things from that trecky-star TV show" and how they're allegedly going to "come in th' night and take our wimminz!"
This has happened on multiple occasions, most recently about two weeks ago.
So I find the Kazon to be a racist stereotype as well as incompetent and stupid. Just my opinion, I guess.
Heh. I may be reading a lot into it, but being a history buff, I am VERY leery of racism of all stripes.
And I DO hate the Kazon. But for the wrong reasons.
IIRC Chakotay is explicitly stated to be Mayan at some point. The fact remains that the consultant the writers got to ensure they were writing their token Native American properly was a legendary faker with no actual Native American heritage or knowledge beyond that common in popular culture.
Which was annoying as heck.
i just got out of work, lifting lots of heavy things around, got a new carrying partner who has a indian background to him but obviously been in the uk for a while, hes a really nice bloke just hard out on his luck without a job. so yeah, i dont see where this racial idea comes into it, everyones got to live, work and play, enjoyment on many forms. i not critical of kazon, klingons, ocampa, half breeds or otherwise.
i honestly dont see what is wrong with the kazon and why everyone else is making up excuses against the idea :P.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Doesn't change the fact that I have had a racist idiot on a train LITERALLY complain at me for thirty minutes about "them darky boys" and their "gangsta hair, like them Cruton things from that trecky-star TV show" and how they're allegedly going to "come in th' night and take our wimminz!"
This has happened on multiple occasions, most recently about two weeks ago.
So I find the Kazon to be a racist stereotype as well as incompetent and stupid. Just my opinion, I guess.
You're letting the racists tell you how to perceive the Kazon.
Just because some idiot is going to misinterpret something or appropriate it for their own agenda, doesn't mean they're right.
Alright. It's easy to derive conclusions potentially from where there were none to begin with. I'm realigning the conversation now, as this meta-discussion over racism will very quickly lead to off-topic flame wars.
Alright. It's easy to derive conclusions potentially from where there were none to begin with. I'm realigning the conversation now, as this meta-discussion over racism will very quickly lead to off-topic flame wars.
Thank you, Trendy.
Shall we discuss the possibility of edible Baconians in the expansion?
Useful, information this time please. Take a break from the Lore Blogs, and give us some information on Ships, especially how you intend to handle the upgrading of Tier 5 to Tier 6.
Useful, information this time please. Take a break from the Lore Blogs, and give us some information on Ships, especially how you intend to handle the upgrading of Tier 5 to Tier 6.
this isnt a t6 discussion, take it elsewhere.
i want to find out if the kazon are the main antagonists despite the level :P
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Useful, information this time please. Take a break from the Lore Blogs, and give us some information on Ships, especially how you intend to handle the upgrading of Tier 5 to Tier 6.
I would be content with a lore blog.
Or a T6 blog.
*Reaches for his own pitchfork, except it's aimed at those raising their pitchforks at devs*
assuming they are planning on a october 14th release, that leaves us with 39 days (40 if they had/have a blog planned) for information to be posted. If not, then 44 days. Just wait a little longer.
i want to find out if the kazon are the main antagonists despite the level :P
I've been speculating that the Kazon are going to be allies of the KDF.
Before this blog post, I assumed that the Ocampans and Talaxians would be Starfleet aligned and the KDF would get the Kazon, so both major factions would receive new playable races.
But now I'm wondering if they will do it differently, Talaxians for Starfleet, Ocampans for Romulan and Kazon for KDF.
I'm now wondering if having telepathic abilities dealing with Romulan spies gives Ocampans an unfair advantage?
Just imagining that debriefing at Tal'Shiar HQ:
Commander: You're back from your mission early, did you complete the objective?
Spy: The Captain was an Ocampan, as soon as I boarded the ship, they read my mind and learned I wasn't loyal to them. Then everything went black and I woke up inside a storage crate at a Ferengi trading post.
Commander: Oh darn it, we can't spy on that ship now!
And I'm wondering if the Talaxians will be playable, if they'll have the innate trait Seven of Nine tells us they have.
According to what she says, Talaxians make excellent drones because of their dense musculature.
I'm assuming this means they have Physical Strength as an trait.
I'm all for the Romulans getting new playable species, but I really hope Ocampan is not one of them!
I've already had to recruit Tovan Skev twice now against my will, a third time is going to raise my ire level even more! :mad:
How is Cryptic not taking the hint and allowing us to dismiss him?
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
*Reaches for his own pitchfork, except it's aimed at those raising their pitchforks at devs*
assuming they are planning on a october 14th release, that leaves us with 39 days (40 if they had/have a blog planned) for information to be posted. If not, then 44 days. Just wait a little longer.
*Looks at everyone waiving farm implements. Shrugs. Logs in and cycles crafting projects. Looks at the Junior Officer Appreciation... nah, that bugged out and didn't grant a reward upon completion. Shrugs, and logs back out. Looks at his own pitchfork. Sighs, and returns to waiting for T6 information to show up in the Dev Blogs.*
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
I would be content with a lore blog.
Or a T6 blog.
ANY blog, really...
Seriously, this lack of information flow after the large amount of promised blogs is increasingly infuriating.
Give us something. Your playerbase is aching for answers about some really important questions, ones that could make or break their continued interest in your game, and you give us nothing.
I must admit I was sincerely hoping that there would be more density of blogs at least early on to...satiate the thirst.
If I recall correctly, the Kazon were created as a way of duplicating youth gang culture which could span from south central LA in the nineties which makes it topical but can also span all the way back to the films The Warriors, and West Side Story. As a gameplay thing this could equally mean that we could make alliances with individual Kazon sects and thus gain Kazon officers, and it could also mean that we could have Kazons that wanna kill us at all times. Or are we going to see a unified Kazon society?
Kazon interaction with Klingons could be interesting, as the Kazon joining the Klingons would be like a gangster joining the military, which happens quite a bit, and finding comfort in the structure of the life. It could make for an interesting background or story, for a Player character or a BOFF. On the Federation or Romulan side a Kazon that wishes to escape the violence and scavenger state of the species would be equally compelling.
I'm also interested in their ships, The Predator class has been estimated at upwards of 2 kilometers, almost twice the length of a D'Deridex, I want to see how that works out in the game, especially if they end up in a Lockbox (I hope not). Otherwise they're just small City Ships. The Kazon had enough problems with Voyager and we know they don't actually technologically advance, though they can steal from others.
Lastly I want to know how they get to the near Delta Quadrant where Delta Rising takes place when they originate in the Far Delta Quadrant. Did they actually follow Voyager home?
*Looks at everyone waiving farm implements. Shrugs. Logs in and cycles crafting projects. Looks at the Junior Officer Appreciation... nah, that bugged out and didn't grant a reward upon completion. Shrugs, and logs back out. Looks at his own pitchfork. Sighs, and returns to waiting for T6 information to show up in the Dev Blogs.*
It is quite unusual. I think people are taking this farming terminology thing a little too far.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Comments
Heh.
I gave up on Voyager once the ostensibly Mayan Chakotay said something about tepees and vision quests. I was already stretched to the breaking point with Ensign Generic and Neelix and the totally not racist at all treatment of the mostly dark-skinned Kazon as opposed to the Caucasian Ocampa, and the Kazon in general, and the biology fail of the Ocampa, and Neelix in general, and Janeway being an incompetent Sue, and nobody at all listening to Tuvok even though he was the only one making any sense at all, and the fact that Ms. Chief Engineer Klingon Rage could not identify manure with a tricorder.
I decided I hated Voyager more than seasons 1-3 of Enterprise when I was subjected to "Threshold" on a bet.
But TEHO, I guess.
Interesting point of view. But also strange, a bit exaggerated and bizarre though.
100% agreement to the rest.
It was just...the obvious "street gang" vibe of the Kazon, which apparently the writers were actually aiming for, plus the dark-skinned, big-hairdoed Kazon, plus the Caucasian, predominantly blond Ocampa, combined to form a really offensive racist stereotype.
Just rewatch "Caretaker", and any other episodes that deal with Ocampa or Kazon.
But yeah, I linked to some of the more fundamental Neelix fails earlier in the thread.
and where did you get the "ostensibly Mayan" idea? He always struck me as being more like a Navaho.... (or Hopi) the only thing that really connects him to Central America at all is that thing with the "Rubber Tree People"... and that's kinda vague.
My character Tsin'xing
Heh. I may be reading a lot into it, but being a history buff, I am VERY leery of racism of all stripes.
And I DO hate the Kazon. But for the wrong reasons.
IIRC Chakotay is explicitly stated to be Mayan at some point. The fact remains that the consultant the writers got to ensure they were writing their token Native American properly was a legendary faker with no actual Native American heritage or knowledge beyond that common in popular culture.
Which was annoying as heck.
We see what we want to see in works of art. They're all relative. If you're convinced that the Khazon were an allegory to a specific human race, maybe you need to meditate on your own heart before accusing others.
My character Tsin'xing
OK, let me get some pictures.
Kazon.
Racist stereotype of African-American youth.
Oh, yeah. Totally no resemblance whatsoever.
/sarcasm
Having had a number of encounters with annoying racists who had the very stereotype of African-Americans in general that I referenced, I disagree with you 100%.
This unbelievably stupid and anthropologically incorrect episode, actually. The same one you mentioned.
I don't see the resemblance, honestly.
...
OK.
Doesn't change the fact that I have had a racist idiot on a train LITERALLY complain at me for thirty minutes about "them darky boys" and their "gangsta hair, like them Cruton things from that trecky-star TV show" and how they're allegedly going to "come in th' night and take our wimminz!"
This has happened on multiple occasions, most recently about two weeks ago.
So I find the Kazon to be a racist stereotype as well as incompetent and stupid. Just my opinion, I guess.
i just got out of work, lifting lots of heavy things around, got a new carrying partner who has a indian background to him but obviously been in the uk for a while, hes a really nice bloke just hard out on his luck without a job. so yeah, i dont see where this racial idea comes into it, everyones got to live, work and play, enjoyment on many forms. i not critical of kazon, klingons, ocampa, half breeds or otherwise.
i honestly dont see what is wrong with the kazon and why everyone else is making up excuses against the idea :P.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
You're letting the racists tell you how to perceive the Kazon.
Just because some idiot is going to misinterpret something or appropriate it for their own agenda, doesn't mean they're right.
Point.
I still don't like the Kazon, mostly due to their complete incompetence as villains.
Thank you, Trendy.
Shall we discuss the possibility of edible Baconians in the expansion?
WE WANT MORE INFO!!! :eek:
< reaches for Pitch fork and torch >
Useful, information this time please. Take a break from the Lore Blogs, and give us some information on Ships, especially how you intend to handle the upgrading of Tier 5 to Tier 6.
this isnt a t6 discussion, take it elsewhere.
i want to find out if the kazon are the main antagonists despite the level :P
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I would be content with a lore blog.
Or a T6 blog.
ANY blog, really...
assuming they are planning on a october 14th release, that leaves us with 39 days (40 if they had/have a blog planned) for information to be posted. If not, then 44 days. Just wait a little longer.
I've been speculating that the Kazon are going to be allies of the KDF.
Before this blog post, I assumed that the Ocampans and Talaxians would be Starfleet aligned and the KDF would get the Kazon, so both major factions would receive new playable races.
But now I'm wondering if they will do it differently, Talaxians for Starfleet, Ocampans for Romulan and Kazon for KDF.
I'm now wondering if having telepathic abilities dealing with Romulan spies gives Ocampans an unfair advantage?
Just imagining that debriefing at Tal'Shiar HQ:
Commander: You're back from your mission early, did you complete the objective?
Spy: The Captain was an Ocampan, as soon as I boarded the ship, they read my mind and learned I wasn't loyal to them. Then everything went black and I woke up inside a storage crate at a Ferengi trading post.
Commander: Oh darn it, we can't spy on that ship now!
And I'm wondering if the Talaxians will be playable, if they'll have the innate trait Seven of Nine tells us they have.
According to what she says, Talaxians make excellent drones because of their dense musculature.
I'm assuming this means they have Physical Strength as an trait.
I'm all for the Romulans getting new playable species, but I really hope Ocampan is not one of them!
I've already had to recruit Tovan Skev twice now against my will, a third time is going to raise my ire level even more! :mad:
How is Cryptic not taking the hint and allowing us to dismiss him?
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
*Looks at everyone waiving farm implements. Shrugs. Logs in and cycles crafting projects. Looks at the Junior Officer Appreciation... nah, that bugged out and didn't grant a reward upon completion. Shrugs, and logs back out. Looks at his own pitchfork. Sighs, and returns to waiting for T6 information to show up in the Dev Blogs.*
:P
Seriously, this lack of information flow after the large amount of promised blogs is increasingly infuriating.
Give us something. Your playerbase is aching for answers about some really important questions, ones that could make or break their continued interest in your game, and you give us nothing.
You're testing my patience.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Have fun with that, you're out numbered already!
hip63 :P
If I recall correctly, the Kazon were created as a way of duplicating youth gang culture which could span from south central LA in the nineties which makes it topical but can also span all the way back to the films The Warriors, and West Side Story. As a gameplay thing this could equally mean that we could make alliances with individual Kazon sects and thus gain Kazon officers, and it could also mean that we could have Kazons that wanna kill us at all times. Or are we going to see a unified Kazon society?
Kazon interaction with Klingons could be interesting, as the Kazon joining the Klingons would be like a gangster joining the military, which happens quite a bit, and finding comfort in the structure of the life. It could make for an interesting background or story, for a Player character or a BOFF. On the Federation or Romulan side a Kazon that wishes to escape the violence and scavenger state of the species would be equally compelling.
I'm also interested in their ships, The Predator class has been estimated at upwards of 2 kilometers, almost twice the length of a D'Deridex, I want to see how that works out in the game, especially if they end up in a Lockbox (I hope not). Otherwise they're just small City Ships. The Kazon had enough problems with Voyager and we know they don't actually technologically advance, though they can steal from others.
Lastly I want to know how they get to the near Delta Quadrant where Delta Rising takes place when they originate in the Far Delta Quadrant. Did they actually follow Voyager home?
Inquiring minds want to know.
It is quite unusual. I think people are taking this farming terminology thing a little too far.
Yeah, the Klingons would get tired of those wannabes and kill the misogynistic idiots that call themselves Kazon in about 20 seconds.
It WOULD be fun to see Worf solo about 500 Kazon and totally LOLfacerollPWNZOR them, but otherwise...
tl;dr: If Cryptic makes playable Kazon, I'm NOT playing one. Under any circumstances.