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Welcome to the 1 year crafting grind. Let them know what we think.

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  • snowpig74snowpig74 Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Of course you do, you just need to press a handful of buttons once a day, 90 times.

    Wouldnt it be easier just to wait 3 months longer and then to release the stuff for free/dilithium? that would definetly cause less emotions and head- & hand-ache.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    No - but your quoted post does not seem to take into account multiple slots allowing you to progress more quickly than 10 xp per minute, which the XP curve assumes you will use. Slots 4 and 5 are actually totally bonus and were added in playtesting, and we didn't go back and scale XP around them. By my calculations, it will take 350 hours of R+D to hit level 15, almost all of which can be offline time assuming a large starting resource stockpile.

    The system's supposed to be a long-term goal for level 15, and even more so for level 20. Not everyone will like that, but some people will like it very much.
    "Is the amount of XP required...going to be looked at"? Maybe. The XP curve is structured the way it is because the system is designed for 4 different types of player - super casual, casual, midcore, and super hardcore. It's less of a curve and more of 4 different curves stuck together - thus the extreme breakpoint around level 3 that many players have noticed.

    As you point out, the initial XP values are extremely low. Part of this is due to the tutorial that isn't in-game yet - we give you the components to make a Mark 2 item for free and walk you through the creation process. We wanted that creation to give you enough XP to hit level 1 - so 1 5-minute project had to be enough XP to ding. Another reason it's so low is because you start with only one R+D slot - when you unlock the 2nd and then the 3rd slot, the curves increase in steepness under the assumption you'll do projects in all available slots. (Worth noting that this does NOT occur for the 4th and 5th slots, making all projects you run in those slots "bonus time" from our perspective).

    Of course we don't expect players to play 24 hours of the day 7 days a week. We know the patterns of play that most of our players follow, and the system is supposed to be a long-term but achieveable/attainable goal for these players.

    It's a fake!!!
  • lunastolunasto Member Posts: 774 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I'm speechless, I was enjoying learning this new addition. Is all of what I am hearing true? :(
    Lightningdealwithit.gifNew Lunar Republic
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  • cmdrscarletcmdrscarlet Member Posts: 5,137 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Meh. I'm okay with it actually. it took me 4 hours to max crafting skill with the first version and have not used crafting AT ALL since then.

    Now I get to tinker with the new system, but since I have not needed it before then I can wait for whatever I'll get from it.

    "Grind"? Nah.
  • latiasracerlatiasracer Member Posts: 680 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Yeah, No.


    I was pretty much only playing for a few seconds a day to set crafting missions each day in order to get my hands on a Phaser Omni-Directional. Now i'm just not gonna bother.



    See you in expansion 2, if you are still around Cryptic!
    warp plasma can't melt neutronium beams
  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Guess I was wrong about the multiple 20 hr projects per school WAI.

    But after unlocking more slots over the weekend, I can't argue with that change and I'm not really surprised. I unlocked 3 of the 5 slots on multiple characters over the course of a few days without actually crafting more than a handful of components and one item. One of them has already hit level 5 in one school and others are at level 3 and 4.

    That's too fast. If they'd let it go a couple of weeks anybody would've been able to unlock 4 of 5 slots without spending a bit of dilithium. Good for the players, not so much for Cryptic.

    I'm not saying that they don't need to adjust the XP somehow to make things go faster, mind you. I don't have an opinion yet.

    I would tend to believe that they haven't done anything significant to accelerate low-level crafting for max level characters... especially the ones that already maxed out the previous crafting system.

    Without the 20 hr assignments, high-level characters are indeed stuck crafting low-level junk in order to make any progress and that's not right.

    Yes, I know that Cryptic made it 'possible' to craft Mk12 stuff right out of the gate, but realistically -- given the skill level and materials necessary to get a good chance of a decent result -- it was never practical to do that, IMO.
    My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here
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  • snowpig74snowpig74 Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    bluegeek wrote: »
    That's too fast. If they'd let it go a couple of weeks anybody would've been able to unlock 4 of 5 slots without spending a bit of dilithium. Good for the players, not so much for Cryptic.

    The dilithium spending starts with the crafting of MK X ++ gear. Btw. similar to crafting system 3
  • vawlkusvawlkus Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Being able to slot multiple R&D research projects made this pile TRIBBLE tolerable: it was NEVER good. With the removal of that, this new system is complete and utter garbage and not worth looking further at.

    Oh, and for those arguing that crafting vendor trash will accelerate things, you go ahead and do that. You'll be outta materials inside of a week. That's 7 out of the 90 days per school. Great thining there. I collected the mats across two fleets and nine toons, and even with that I'd run out of crafting mats in two weeks, even allowing for earning more across the same base.
  • champion1701champion1701 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Once again, Cryptic releases a system that is in Beta stages. They have never shipped a complete product from DAY 1. CBS should seriously look at finding another game studio to give the IP, one that ships systems that are tested and done. Don't put systems on a "test" server then ignore everything that your playerbase says is wrong with the system.
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  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    snowpig74 wrote: »
    The dilithium spending starts with the crafting of MK X ++ gear. Btw. similar to crafting system 3

    I was referring to using the "Finish Now" button to accelerate crafting assignments, not the actual crafting of gear.
    My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here
    Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
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  • gurugeorgegurugeorge Member Posts: 421 Arc User
    edited July 2014

    I think we could do with less egotistical behavior on Cryptic's part.


    I don't know, it could be cynicism and being past caring.

    On the hypothesis that PWE have been using Cryptic games as a guinea pig to see how far they can push the Asian grinder model in a Western market, whether it's good for Cryptic and their games or not, it's obviously not going to be good, and Cryptic know it, hence the cynical attitude.

    i.e. essentially PWE are pushing the game away from being a Star Trek game into being a generic Asian grinder with Star Trek skins (ditto for Neverwinter in D&D skin), Cryptic are bound to know this is going to end in disaster in a Western market, so in effect, they're just hanging onto their jobs for as long as they can, knowing in their hearts that it's all going to end in tears.

    At least, that's the only explanation that seems to me to make sense of the gradual change of Cryptic from a dev company that started off with a great reputation for a great game (CoH), and used to be innovative and creative, into what it is now: an implementer of nested grinding mechanisms in different graphical skins.
  • theuser2021theuser2021 Member Posts: 170 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    For some of the people who are thinking, oh levels 1-5 weren't so bad, I should be 20 in no time even with this change. The problem is that the level curve is exponentially higher at each additional level. At some of the later levels it will take over 100 days to make one level. Everquest didn't even have a grind that bad.
  • puttenhamputtenham Member Posts: 1,052 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    bluegeek wrote: »
    Guess I was wrong about the multiple 20 hr projects per school WAI.

    But after unlocking more slots over the weekend, I can't argue with that change and I'm not really surprised. I unlocked 3 of the 5 slots on multiple characters over the course of a few days without actually crafting more than a handful of components and one item. One of them has already hit level 5 in one school and others are at level 3 and 4.

    That's too fast. If they'd let it go a couple of weeks anybody would've been able to unlock 4 of 5 slots without spending a bit of dilithium. Good for the players, not so much for Cryptic.

    I'm not saying that they don't need to adjust the XP somehow to make things go faster, mind you. I don't have an opinion yet.

    I would tend to believe that they haven't done anything significant to accelerate low-level crafting for max level characters... especially the ones that already maxed out the previous crafting system.

    Without the 20 hr assignments, high-level characters are indeed stuck crafting low-level junk in order to make any progress and that's not right.

    Yes, I know that Cryptic made it 'possible' to craft Mk12 stuff right out of the gate, but realistically -- given the skill level and materials necessary to get a good chance of a decent result -- it was never practical to do that, IMO.

    really, not favorable for them... how many peeps are selling max level stuff on the exchange, how many players weather you could slot more than one 20h at a time or not spent the 7+ mil dilithium to max level in the first day? id say cryptic is doing ok with it..

    also, its not like every other aspect of the game is not favorable for them.. you make it sound like they don't sell anything, and they do not create content geared towards playing on players patience on the regular.

    and regardless of weather it is too fast or not.. everyone agrees that their "solution" is way way out of line.. cryptic has not learned yet that they should come up with a solution before dropping the axe to something that can be exploited.. your not just hurting the exploiters, your hurting everyone.. but instead they drop the axe and fluster all of their players..

    another one of my problems with this "nerf" is this is how this somehow was not a problem on tribble.. this just goes to show how much the devs do not pay attention to the actual testing going on by the community.. I have stopped playing on tribble because it does nothing.. all it is, is a stress test for the content.. almost every single bug, and almost every single imbalance has always made it from tribble to holodeck... and this just shows what im talking about.. this type of change should have been introduced on tribble and talked about there, not on holodeck.. the only changes they make from tribble before it hits holodeck, is usually dil costs and stuff that effects the trade of money...
  • snowpig74snowpig74 Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    You want to say, that its not enough for Cryptic, that we should pay around 12000-16000 Dil or crafting MK XII stuff, so they want to make us pay up to additional 18000 * (2070000/6000)*7 = 43.5M Dil ( ~ 280.000 Zen) to "speed things up" ?!?!? :eek:
  • challenger1243challenger1243 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    this is my 1st time for me to respond to what i see as a major change as a BAD MISTAKE changing R&D FROM DOING MORE THAN ONE PROJECT AT A TIME REALLY SUCKS I THOUGHT IT WAS WORKING FINE AS IT WAS !!!!!!!!!:eek::eek:
  • challenger1243challenger1243 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    this is my 1st time for me to respond to what i see as a major change as a BAD MISTAKE changing R&D FROM DOING MORE THAN ONE PROJECT AT A TIME REALLY SUCKS I THOUGHT IT WAS WORKING FINE AS IT WAS !!!!!!!!!:eek::eek:
    what more has to be said if it wasn't brke don't fix it one project at a time in same area is not right iwas fine like it was working!!!!!!
  • kamenriderzero1kamenriderzero1 Member Posts: 906 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    here's the thing, you THOUGH it was working like it was supposed to.

    on FRIDAY, one day into the launch of the new system, there was already a TR-116B on the exchange for 500,000,000 EC. Someone with more Dilithium than sense, got through 15 levels of ground in less than a DAY. Watch Smirk's livestream from Friday, someone mentions it to him. I'm already at level 5 myself in ground weapons, and at minimum 2 in all others.
    Everywhere I look, people are screaming about how bad Cryptic is.
    What's my position?
    That people should know what they're screaming about!
    (paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
  • thatcursedwolfthatcursedwolf Member Posts: 1,617 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    For some of the people who are thinking, oh levels 1-5 weren't so bad, I should be 20 in no time even with this change. The problem is that the level curve is exponentially higher at each additional level. At some of the later levels it will take over 100 days to make one level. Everquest didn't even have a grind that bad.

    Which was my experience with crafting in Neverwinter. Which has the crafting portal to speak in its favor at least.
    This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    bluegeek wrote: »
    But after unlocking more slots over the weekend, I can't argue with that change and I'm not really surprised. I unlocked 3 of the 5 slots on multiple characters over the course of a few days without actually crafting more than a handful of components and one item. One of them has already hit level 5 in one school and others are at level 3 and 4.

    That's too fast. If they'd let it go a couple of weeks anybody would've been able to unlock 4 of 5 slots without spending a bit of dilithium. Good for the players, not so much for Cryptic.

    If they hiked up the XP 2.5 times to 15XP, then it wouldn't be completely unreasonable to go one at a time. It would still take more than 4 months to do 4 schools, and then another 4 for the rest.
  • havokreignhavokreign Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Dislike the change. If anything kick up the Xp costs for levels to accommodate the 4th slot (let the 5th stay a bonus for those who get there). Or increase the requirements to unlock slots 4/5.

    I don't buy the 'craft as you level' TRIBBLE. What materials are you crafting with? Where are you getting EC with the vendor trash price nerf? Where are you getting dilithium to fastcraft or build rare components? How're you farming these things at levels 12,18,24,36?

    The sparse hits off DoFF assignments?
    The handful of 'data scans' strewn about in missions?
    'Data scans' in exploration sectors?
    Common boxes from a fleet alert, assuming you get into one before 50?
    Paying the inflated prices on the exchange that assume you've been around for the last 4 years?

    Nah, I don't see it. Feels more like reneging.
  • heckgoblinheckgoblin Member Posts: 685
    edited July 2014
    I just had a thought.

    Consider that at L15 in each crafting school, you're awarded with traits.

    Now, because some people managed to max certain schools already, they will have the advantage of those traits over all other players, for months if not years.

    Brilliant move, Craptic. You got your whales to spend all their dilithium, and now they've got superpowers and the ability to generate infinite EC by crafting things others won't be able to for a year. Brilliant.
    I AM WAR.
  • olivia211olivia211 Member Posts: 675 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Here is basically what I said in the patch thread:

    Anyone who knows me in game knows I buy zen from time to time and I don’t just buy 5-10USD worth. I buy quite a bit. Not only that, I am also a lifer so I have paid a fair amount of money into the game. That being said, I am , at this point, halting all my zen purchases.

    I am doing this as a way to let Cryptic know that the nerfing of the R&D system is unacceptable. Running multiple research projects was a good way to get a jump on pushing a school further and faster. To be honest, I wasn’t at all happy with the grind the way it was setup. However, the researches made it tolerable. Removing this ability to run multiples pretty much says that they want us to takes months to complete even a single school unless we dump huge amounts of dilithium into nothingness.

    I am not even going to get started on the ridiculously low drop rates for the Very Rare R&D mats (59 elite runs and not a single VR mat).

    I’m not gonna yell. I’m not gonna call anyone names. All I am gonna do is not give Cryptic anymore of my money until this is resolved. I have defended Cryptic on several occasions when it came to grinding and farming items, but this I cannot defend. It’s been said many times before in this thread – Bad idea is BAD. I am sure any Dev or Community Manager can look at my account and see just how much money I have sent their way in the past 2 years. Consider that money lost from this point forward until you lessen the grind you have turn the game into.

    I think all of us should do the same. Our words can only do so much. Our wallets will speak much louder.
    No, I am not who you think I am. I am someone different. I am instead a banana.
  • grayfoxjamesgrayfoxjames Member Posts: 1,516 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    walshicus wrote: »
    Scenario 3: You want to get a single school to level 20.
    This takes 277 days. By the end you will have schools 1 through 7 levelled to 20,19,19,19,18,0,0

    Scenario 4: You want to get all schools to level 20.
    This takes 554 days.

    This too me just sounds like a lot. I only really play with one toon and like to complete everything on that one character. 554 days for all Level 20, I mean that's nearly 2 years...

    And even if I do decide to push the "I Win Crafting Button" i.e. Dilithium...we're talking 2,070,000/6000=345 projects x 18,000 Dilithium = 6,210,000 Dilithium for one project to 20. If you want a project to 15 with the "I win button" then it would be...

    630,000/6000=105 projects x 18,000 Dilithium = 1,890,000 Dilithium. Even for the Zen to Dil crew we're talking (at the current exchange rate) $120.00 to rush one project to Level 15....................................that's nearly as much as as it was upgrading our Tier V Shipyard...and that was a GROUP effort...this is solo!
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  • sfc#5932 sfc Member Posts: 992 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    olivia211 wrote: »
    Here is basically what I said in the patch thread:

    Anyone who knows me in game knows I buy zen from time to time and I don’t just buy 5-10USD worth. I buy quite a bit. Not only that, I am also a lifer so I have paid a fair amount of money into the game. That being said, I am , at this point, halting all my zen purchases.

    I am doing this as a way to let Cryptic know that the nerfing of the R&D system is unacceptable. Running multiple research projects was a good way to get a jump on pushing a school further and faster. To be honest, I wasn’t at all happy with the grind the way it was setup. However, the researches made it tolerable. Removing this ability to run multiples pretty much says that they want us to takes months to complete even a single school unless we dump huge amounts of dilithium into nothingness.

    I am not even going to get started on the ridiculously low drop rates for the Very Rare R&D mats (59 elite runs and not a single VR mat).

    I’m not gonna yell. I’m not gonna call anyone names. All I am gonna do is not give Cryptic anymore of my money until this is resolved. I have defended Cryptic on several occasions when it came to grinding and farming items, but this I cannot defend. It’s been said many times before in this thread – Bad idea is BAD. I am sure any Dev or Community Manager can look at my account and see just how much money I have sent their way in the past 2 years. Consider that money lost from this point forward until you lessen the grind you have turn the game into.

    I think all of us should do the same. Our words can only do so much. Our wallets will speak much louder.
    That's not to do anything, I'll just keep buying ZEN and funding the game. You logging in each day is funding the game anyway.
  • olivia211olivia211 Member Posts: 675 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    That's not to do anything, I'll just keep buying ZEN and funding the game. You logging in each day is funding the game anyway.

    Pinches are still felt regardless. This is me pinching. You can disagree if you like.
    No, I am not who you think I am. I am someone different. I am instead a banana.
  • sfc#5932 sfc Member Posts: 992 Bug Hunter
    edited July 2014
    olivia211 wrote: »
    Pinches are still felt regardless. This is me pinching. You can disagree if you like.
    Not at all, whatever you think you're doing is not going to hurt the game at all especially as they create an upcoming Expansion almost primed for release.

    Feel free to think you're hurting STO somehow.
  • lowy1lowy1 Member Posts: 964 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    What baffles me is how many games frak up crafting that were developed and made during and after SWG. SWG IS STILL the standard when it comes to crafting. Even with the NGE, you could level a crafter in 2-3 hours as an Architect/Shipwright, but that corresponded with a ton of resources, not to mention RESOURCE QUALITY made the difference. This could easily be applied to this game by assigning 2 attributes to the mats and then a 1-1000 quality number, hell it could even be 1-100 or 1-75.

    If you kept the grind to max level reasonable (which it really isn't now and was with 5 projects available) and add resource quality to it, you receive the same endstate. Dedicated crafters will hunt for the good mats, you'll have people collect resources for credits, and eventualy a healthier, more stable economy.
    HzLLhLB.gif

  • natewest1natewest1 Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    what more has to be said if it wasn't brke don't fix it one project at a time in same area is not right iwas fine like it was working!!!!!!

    EXACTLY! It was working great the way it was. I was sacrificing my crafting of Cannon stuff to fill up on R&D, level up so I can work the better projects. I'm not usually one to complain, but damn, they really screwed that one up.
  • nepsthennepsthen Member Posts: 209 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Just when I was planning on buying a ship bundle, too, since it's been several months since I bought anything from them. I was never planning on buying the R&D packages anyway, but it looks like I'll be spending my money elsewhere.

    On a game that's not as grindy.
    With a more enjoyable crafting system.
    Like FFXIV.

    Even Haven & Hearth's crafting system is more enjoyable than this, and I thought that was the worst revamp ever. Clearly I was wrong.
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