It'll take you a LOT less than 105 days to get to level 15 if you ACTUALLY CRAFT. The daily is just there to help casuals.
I swear, you all just want a system you can press a button and complete. Every time we get something that requires you to either play the game (to win materials from queue packs) or participate in the economy (to buy materials for EC) and actively participate in the new system, you all ***** and whine that you can't get back to a state of having nothing to do in under a month.
Firstly, no it isn't. Second, that's a weak argument and only diminishes your position.
I'm going to make pretend you weren't serious...regular crafting gives you about 600 XP an hour as someone else noted. It would take 10 hours of gameplay to reach 6,000 XP (the equivalent to the 20 hr project). Most players with jobs, mortgages, and family won't put in 10 hours of gameplay so we have to think about cost vs. reward...to most 600 XP an hour probably won't be worth the time or components needed (this isn't including the grinding needed to get said components every day) so most people will rely on the 20 hour project as their main source of leveling up.
If 21 pages wasn't enough to tell you this I don't know what else would.
Fleet Admiral Thomas Winston James a.k.a. The Grayfox Fleet Leader of:
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Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
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I just object to the notion that crafting should be nerfed into nothingness because some people are so ADD riddled they can't stomach a wait of more than a month.
~35 days to get to L15 in one school.
~81 days to get to L20 in one school.
~147 days to get to L20 in the second school.
~213 days to get to L20 in the third school.
~280 days to get to L20 in the fourth school.
~347 days to get to L20 in the fifth school.
~414 days to get to L20 in the sixth school.
~481 days to get to L20 in the seventh school.
If you think there are 481 days in a month...you need to go back to school.
I mean forgetting that lvl 15 is real the 'breakpoint' with lvl 20 being gravy... You're not spending 7 years, because after a week and a bit you'll have four slots to play with. So it'll be under a year to get to lvl 20 in FOUR schools.
Or you could go at it the other way and probably get everything to 15 in under a year. Which isn't that long. And then you have 5 slots to use to get 5 schools up to lvl 20 at a time.
You know, if it took more than 2-3 days to level...there might be some value to the stuff that's not Mk XII.
Thats one of the main points. In other MMOs I can craft a new item as soon as I reach a new level. Maybe I need some extra grind for that item, but at least I can get it.
On our new STO crafting system I would have to wait a week or longer, simply doing nothing, just to be allowed to craft a new item fitting for my level. R&D is way too slow. Or leveling is too fast. But I guess that will never change.
And another question... as you need doffs for crafting, can you even craft something before level 15? Do you get that white holo doffs earlier now?
It'll take you a LOT less than 105 days to get to level 15 if you ACTUALLY CRAFT. The daily is just there to help casuals.
I swear, you all just want a system you can press a button and complete. Every time we get something that requires you to either play the game (to win materials from queue packs) or participate in the economy (to buy materials for EC) and actively participate in the new system, you all ***** and whine that you can't get back to a state of having nothing to do in under a month.
Firstly, no it isn't. Second, that's a weak argument and only diminishes your position.
Are you for real? it's not about not doing work. it's about the fact not everyone can treat a game as a job and spend 24 hours online micromanaging a system. nor should we.
Virus, I always appreciate your number crunching so that I don't have to. I just wish this was under better circumstances.
Meh, I think it was a simple case that folks had planned on eating that month before they could do anything...then they were prepared to do all the gambling that Cryptic wants folks to do which would lead to the ZEN purchases to get Dil, buying the R&D Gamble Boxes, etc, etc, etc.
With this change, all Cryptic is doing is delaying the point at which folks would have potentially invested in it.
It's just mind-boggling.
It's not about wanting to be finished in a month...it's about having wanted to be able to start in just over a month...not having to wait over three months to get started.
Meh, I think it was a simple case that folks had planned on eating that month before they could do anything...then they were prepared to do all the gambling that Cryptic wants folks to do which would lead to the ZEN purchases to get Dil, buying the R&D Gamble Boxes, etc, etc, etc.
With this change, all Cryptic is doing is delaying the point at which folks would have potentially invested in it.
It's just mind-boggling.
It's not about wanting to be finished in a month...it's about having wanted to be able to start in just over a month...not having to wait over three months to get started.
Nicely put. Not gonna start crafting until I reach a point where I can craft something to care about.
Are you for real? it's not about not doing work. it's about the fact not everyone can treat a game as a job and spend 24 hours online micromanaging a system. nor should we.
Then they shouldn't expect to get to the top?
Does anyone have a link to the table that shows school XP required by crafting level?
i hate to say this but i was pushed out of other parts of the game over time and now im just feeling as though i was pushed out of this one before i really even got started...
i mean come on cryptic you can only keep someones attention for about a month and a half with the content you have THATS IT!
so if you want people to stay well just start creating stuff worth our time and stop stretching content out to last till the next stuff is expected it may be good standard in Asia but we are not Asians we are European Australian and American at least your target market is so why on earth are you treating us as you would treat the asian markets?
i understand in that market pay for progress and stretching content is the norm but if you haven't the time or money to do right by us your real market then just shut it down its not worth our time anymore.
well honestly for me crafting level 8 and 10 are right out - too expensive to craft them
So to craft level 6 stuff. Let's say I run 3 600 exp projects say 3 times a day = 5400
Then I do my 20 hourlies for another 6000. More than this is too much of an ask.
So it's about = to 2 20's instead of 3 or 4.
I don't know the exp required for lvl 15 but I'd guess maybe 50 days. Hmm pushing it. Really pushing it.
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
After doing it for 3 rounds worth. Even myself is deeming it about a waste of time. To gain a high boost takes too long. Since you have to do each one to get them all up. To make use of any of it. Where the old one you didn't have a waiting time. The random thing is ok, but I rather pick which one I want so I can make a match set for my ships. So this will make it harder to do that with so many variations on it. This will also lead some not to do this feature. Even making 2 low Mark II weapons for my new sci captain to try that out. Even didn't knock a dent in the crafting Exp needed to advanced to the next level.
Granted I can understand making $ by using Dil to reduce the time. For someone who is conservative on $ to convert zen into Dil, or who rarely hits the cap on Dil. This was not a good feature. I get it the company needs another way to make $, but this alone will have many not doing the crafting.
Its nice they updated crafting it really needed it. But they have gone too far. As it will take up way too much time to get anywhere. They should just tweaked the old system for newer items.
I'm like the others, I just don't see much time going into this project. Too much time involved to get anywhere. Even WoW had a better crafting than this and far more enjoyable.
For someone who only gets on 2 days a week if I'm lucky. This type of crafting I don't see it worth doing. As this is just too much. Even the Rep grind is far better than this. I rather do another Rep grind than the crafting.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
There's a fine line between monetising a "freemium" game, and taking the TRIBBLE. This change is firmly on the side of taking the TRIBBLE, and is a blatant money grab.
Freemium is meant to be about a decent basic experience with some real-money extras/shortcuts, but it shouldn't be "grind or pay"... that just puts off those who can't pay with too much grind, and those who can pay but don't want to feel like they're being milked.
I'm happy to put money into freemium games, this won't be the first nor the last, but I tend to do it in a quick splurge for an occasional item, and regular small top ups to make my life easier (I can't grind because I work, so I use some of the money from work to shorten the grind).... I'm not paying for regular progress, though.
After doing it for 3 rounds worth. Even myself is deeming it about a waste of time. To gain a high boost takes too long. Since you have to do each one to get them all up. To make use of any of it. Where the old one you didn't have a waiting time. The random thing is ok, but I rather pick which one I want so I can make a match set for my ships. So this will make it harder to do that with so many variations on it. This will also lead some not to do this feature. Even making 2 low Mark II weapons for my new sci captain to try that out. Even didn't knock a dent in the crafting Exp needed to advanced to the next level.
Granted I can understand making $ by using Dil to reduce the time. For someone who is conservative on $ to convert zen into Dil, or who rarely hits the cap on Dil. This was not a good feature. I get it the company needs another way to make $, but this alone will have many not doing the crafting.
Its nice they updated crafting it really needed it. But they have gone too far. As it will take up way too much time to get anywhere. They should just tweaked the old system for newer items.
I'm like the others, I just don't see much time going into this project. Too much time involved to get anywhere. Even WoW had a better crafting than this and far more enjoyable.
For someone who only gets on 2 days a week if I'm lucky. This type of crafting I don't see it worth doing. As this is just too much. Even the Rep grind is far better than this. I rather do another Rep grind than the crafting.
If the last couple of years have shown anything. It's that STO is no longer a game to be enjoyed by casual gamers. Being a casual player myself, I will be completely ignoring the crafting system.
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Crafting? There is no crafting in STO, just a tightly veiled attempt to pass a rep.system as crafting to simpletons.
You find materials. You build components. You assemble items. It's crafting. If you're going to be reductive, you can go to any absurd length.
Anyhow, I've been crunching some numbers.
Assumptions: Only reputation projects run, with a 25% critical chance for 1000 XP (it's actually higher on average) and all available crafting project slots utilised.
Scenario 1: You want to get a single school to level 15 and then stop.
This takes 84 days. By the end you will have schools 1 through 7 leveled to 15,14,14,14,0,0,0
Scenario 2: You want to get all schools to level 15.
This takes 169 days. By the end you will have schools 1 through 7 levelled to 17,17,15,15,15,15,15
Scenario 3: You want to get a single school to level 20.
This takes 277 days. By the end you will have schools 1 through 7 levelled to 20,19,19,19,18,0,0
Scenario 4: You want to get all schools to level 20.
This takes 554 days.
So let's say you have three alts (one for each faction). After 90 days (3 months) you can have every school to level 15 with some overlap. Everything after that is just a boost. And all of the above assumes you never actually craft a single item, which would speed up progress by about 40%.
Assumptions: Only reputation projects run [...] and all available crafting project slots utilised.
Those projects feature no crafting at all. You utilise a single common material. You will not actually be crafting for several months. I don't see how this is an "absurd length".
Those projects feature no crafting at all. You utilise a single common material. You will not actually be crafting for several months. I don't see how this is an "absurd length".
I was just making a point with that timetable. If you actually did craft, you can get to your desired levels much faster.
I was max-level, now I have no hope of crafting anything but low-level vendor junk.
I'll find somewhere else to spend that $15/mo.
Thanks Cryptic.
Of course you do, you just need to press a handful of buttons once a day, 90 times.
I mean you guys can complain and sulk if you want. But in three months time, most players will be able to craft what they want, or buy what they want from the exchange. You don't need to do anything if you don't want to.
Of course you do, you just need to press a handful of buttons once a day, 90 times.
Wouldnt it be easier just to wait 3 months longer and then to release the stuff for free/dilithium? that would definetly cause less emotions and head- & hand-ache.
No - but your quoted post does not seem to take into account multiple slots allowing you to progress more quickly than 10 xp per minute, which the XP curve assumes you will use. Slots 4 and 5 are actually totally bonus and were added in playtesting, and we didn't go back and scale XP around them. By my calculations, it will take 350 hours of R+D to hit level 15, almost all of which can be offline time assuming a large starting resource stockpile.
The system's supposed to be a long-term goal for level 15, and even more so for level 20. Not everyone will like that, but some people will like it very much.
"Is the amount of XP required...going to be looked at"? Maybe. The XP curve is structured the way it is because the system is designed for 4 different types of player - super casual, casual, midcore, and super hardcore. It's less of a curve and more of 4 different curves stuck together - thus the extreme breakpoint around level 3 that many players have noticed.
As you point out, the initial XP values are extremely low. Part of this is due to the tutorial that isn't in-game yet - we give you the components to make a Mark 2 item for free and walk you through the creation process. We wanted that creation to give you enough XP to hit level 1 - so 1 5-minute project had to be enough XP to ding. Another reason it's so low is because you start with only one R+D slot - when you unlock the 2nd and then the 3rd slot, the curves increase in steepness under the assumption you'll do projects in all available slots. (Worth noting that this does NOT occur for the 4th and 5th slots, making all projects you run in those slots "bonus time" from our perspective).
Of course we don't expect players to play 24 hours of the day 7 days a week. We know the patterns of play that most of our players follow, and the system is supposed to be a long-term but achieveable/attainable goal for these players.
I'm speechless, I was enjoying learning this new addition. Is all of what I am hearing true?
New Lunar Republic
"Where monsters rampage, I'm there to take them down! Where treasure glitters, I'm there to claim it! Where an enemy rises to face me, victory will be mine!" -Lina Inverse
I was pretty much only playing for a few seconds a day to set crafting missions each day in order to get my hands on a Phaser Omni-Directional. Now i'm just not gonna bother.
See you in expansion 2, if you are still around Cryptic!
Comments
I'm going to make pretend you weren't serious...regular crafting gives you about 600 XP an hour as someone else noted. It would take 10 hours of gameplay to reach 6,000 XP (the equivalent to the 20 hr project). Most players with jobs, mortgages, and family won't put in 10 hours of gameplay so we have to think about cost vs. reward...to most 600 XP an hour probably won't be worth the time or components needed (this isn't including the grinding needed to get said components every day) so most people will rely on the 20 hour project as their main source of leveling up.
If 21 pages wasn't enough to tell you this I don't know what else would.
Fleet Leader of:
Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians
U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
Game Handle: Grayfox@GrayfoxJames
Website: https://www.libertytaskforce.com
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Twitter: STOFA@LTFGrayfox
Email: CSDynamix@Hotmail.com
~35 days to get to L15 in one school.
~81 days to get to L20 in one school.
~147 days to get to L20 in the second school.
~213 days to get to L20 in the third school.
~280 days to get to L20 in the fourth school.
~347 days to get to L20 in the fifth school.
~414 days to get to L20 in the sixth school.
~481 days to get to L20 in the seventh school.
If you think there are 481 days in a month...you need to go back to school.
note: That is before the patch today...
You know, if it took more than 2-3 days to level...there might be some value to the stuff that's not Mk XII.
If there weren't so many readily available ways to get VR/UR Mk XII gear...there might be some value to stuff that's not VR/UR MK XII.
Some of us get that, eh?
I do, it is called sarcasm but don't tell anyone else about it.
Edit: yeah nevermind I see what your saying.
Still... leave it as it is!!!!
Thats one of the main points. In other MMOs I can craft a new item as soon as I reach a new level. Maybe I need some extra grind for that item, but at least I can get it.
On our new STO crafting system I would have to wait a week or longer, simply doing nothing, just to be allowed to craft a new item fitting for my level. R&D is way too slow. Or leveling is too fast. But I guess that will never change.
And another question... as you need doffs for crafting, can you even craft something before level 15? Do you get that white holo doffs earlier now?
Are you for real? it's not about not doing work. it's about the fact not everyone can treat a game as a job and spend 24 hours online micromanaging a system. nor should we.
Meh, I think it was a simple case that folks had planned on eating that month before they could do anything...then they were prepared to do all the gambling that Cryptic wants folks to do which would lead to the ZEN purchases to get Dil, buying the R&D Gamble Boxes, etc, etc, etc.
With this change, all Cryptic is doing is delaying the point at which folks would have potentially invested in it.
It's just mind-boggling.
It's not about wanting to be finished in a month...it's about having wanted to be able to start in just over a month...not having to wait over three months to get started.
Nicely put. Not gonna start crafting until I reach a point where I can craft something to care about.
Then they shouldn't expect to get to the top?
Does anyone have a link to the table that shows school XP required by crafting level?
i mean come on cryptic you can only keep someones attention for about a month and a half with the content you have THATS IT!
so if you want people to stay well just start creating stuff worth our time and stop stretching content out to last till the next stuff is expected it may be good standard in Asia but we are not Asians we are European Australian and American at least your target market is so why on earth are you treating us as you would treat the asian markets?
i understand in that market pay for progress and stretching content is the norm but if you haven't the time or money to do right by us your real market then just shut it down its not worth our time anymore.
So to craft level 6 stuff. Let's say I run 3 600 exp projects say 3 times a day = 5400
Then I do my 20 hourlies for another 6000. More than this is too much of an ask.
So it's about = to 2 20's instead of 3 or 4.
I don't know the exp required for lvl 15 but I'd guess maybe 50 days. Hmm pushing it. Really pushing it.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
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L2 requires 260
L3 requires 10,000
L4 requires 30,000
L5 requires 48,000
L6 requires 68,400
L7 requires 93,600
L8 requires 120,600
L9 requires 149,400
L10 requires 180,000
L11 requires 252,000
L12 requires 333,000
L13 requires 423,000
L14 requires 522,000
L15 requires 630,000
L16 requires 882,000
L17 requires 1,152,000
L18 requires 1,440,000
L19 requires 1,746,000
L20 requires 2,070,000
Granted I can understand making $ by using Dil to reduce the time. For someone who is conservative on $ to convert zen into Dil, or who rarely hits the cap on Dil. This was not a good feature. I get it the company needs another way to make $, but this alone will have many not doing the crafting.
Its nice they updated crafting it really needed it. But they have gone too far. As it will take up way too much time to get anywhere. They should just tweaked the old system for newer items.
I'm like the others, I just don't see much time going into this project. Too much time involved to get anywhere. Even WoW had a better crafting than this and far more enjoyable.
For someone who only gets on 2 days a week if I'm lucky. This type of crafting I don't see it worth doing. As this is just too much. Even the Rep grind is far better than this. I rather do another Rep grind than the crafting.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Freemium is meant to be about a decent basic experience with some real-money extras/shortcuts, but it shouldn't be "grind or pay"... that just puts off those who can't pay with too much grind, and those who can pay but don't want to feel like they're being milked.
I'm happy to put money into freemium games, this won't be the first nor the last, but I tend to do it in a quick splurge for an occasional item, and regular small top ups to make my life easier (I can't grind because I work, so I use some of the money from work to shorten the grind).... I'm not paying for regular progress, though.
If the last couple of years have shown anything. It's that STO is no longer a game to be enjoyed by casual gamers. Being a casual player myself, I will be completely ignoring the crafting system.
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You find materials. You build components. You assemble items. It's crafting. If you're going to be reductive, you can go to any absurd length.
Anyhow, I've been crunching some numbers.
Assumptions: Only reputation projects run, with a 25% critical chance for 1000 XP (it's actually higher on average) and all available crafting project slots utilised.
Scenario 1: You want to get a single school to level 15 and then stop.
This takes 84 days. By the end you will have schools 1 through 7 leveled to 15,14,14,14,0,0,0
Scenario 2: You want to get all schools to level 15.
This takes 169 days. By the end you will have schools 1 through 7 levelled to 17,17,15,15,15,15,15
Scenario 3: You want to get a single school to level 20.
This takes 277 days. By the end you will have schools 1 through 7 levelled to 20,19,19,19,18,0,0
Scenario 4: You want to get all schools to level 20.
This takes 554 days.
So let's say you have three alts (one for each faction). After 90 days (3 months) you can have every school to level 15 with some overlap. Everything after that is just a boost. And all of the above assumes you never actually craft a single item, which would speed up progress by about 40%.
You contradicted yourself in that very same post:
Those projects feature no crafting at all. You utilise a single common material. You will not actually be crafting for several months. I don't see how this is an "absurd length".
I won't be participating.
I was max-level, now I have no hope of crafting anything but low-level vendor junk.
I'll find somewhere else to spend that $15/mo.
Thanks Cryptic.
I was just making a point with that timetable. If you actually did craft, you can get to your desired levels much faster.
Of course you do, you just need to press a handful of buttons once a day, 90 times.
I mean you guys can complain and sulk if you want. But in three months time, most players will be able to craft what they want, or buy what they want from the exchange. You don't need to do anything if you don't want to.
Wouldnt it be easier just to wait 3 months longer and then to release the stuff for free/dilithium? that would definetly cause less emotions and head- & hand-ache.
It's a fake!!!
"Where monsters rampage, I'm there to take them down! Where treasure glitters, I'm there to claim it! Where an enemy rises to face me, victory will be mine!" -Lina Inverse
Now I get to tinker with the new system, but since I have not needed it before then I can wait for whatever I'll get from it.
"Grind"? Nah.
I was pretty much only playing for a few seconds a day to set crafting missions each day in order to get my hands on a Phaser Omni-Directional. Now i'm just not gonna bother.
See you in expansion 2, if you are still around Cryptic!