However, when cryptics lead designer says (apparently with a straight face) there was no feedback on the tribble forum about the 9.5 changes its clear that communication has utterly broken down.
That leaves us with few choices to actually express an opinion.
Closing wallets is probably the best of those few choices.
Understandable, however I want to see some proof that the Crafting system will literally take a year to complete, factoring in additional XP from crafted items and not just Research Projects.
Understandable, however I want to see some proof that the Crafting system will literally take a year to complete, factoring in additional XP from crafted items and not just Research Projects.
I'd like to see some validity to this claim.
I'd like to see validity in yours.
No, I am not who you think I am. I am someone different. I am instead a banana.
Understandable, however I want to see some proof that the Crafting system will literally take a year to complete, factoring in additional XP from crafted items and not just Research Projects.
Well, unless one of our resident math wizards is willing to undertake that task, you're gonna be in a for a looong wait...
Understandable, however I want to see some proof that the Crafting system will literally take a year to complete, factoring in additional XP from crafted items and not just Research Projects.
We would have to know how long, each day, a player can reslot projects.
And a moments thought shows that number to be hugely variable.
Nowadays I probably get no more than two hours playtime a day.
Obviously someone able to put more time in would go faster.
However, for myself and given I want to do other things ingame as well as crafting, I doubt the side projects would speed things up that much.
Certainly not enough to offset this ill thought out decision.
If they hiked up the XP 2.5 times to 15XP, then it wouldn't be completely unreasonable to go one at a time. It would still take more than 4 months to do 4 schools, and then another 4 for the rest.
And after that?
You've got to see crafting in the context it's intended to be viewed in. Crafting in STO is an attempt to:
1) Create new player economies. We're encouraged to trade in materials, components and finished items. It's why EVERYTHING in crafting is Bind on Equip.
2) Encourage player socialisation. We're encouraged to work with fleet mates or other players to fill the gaps in our own crafting skills.
3) Provide long term goals. If this was just another Reputation-length run you'd be finished in forty days and would be twiddling your thumbs until the next month-long system came out.
Now don't get me wrong, the system isn't perfect. There needs to be more for lower-level players to do. Someone else has suggested that high quality consumables should be added to the recipe list. I'd propose that 'tweaking' existing items should also be something for lower players to engage in (maybe make the difficulty of the tweak reflect the number of mods being changed or the number of mks the item is increasing by).
Level 15, assuming they didn't change anything from Tribble, is 630,000 xp. Using only the 20 hour porject that gives 6,000 xp once a day, starting from 0 takes 105 days.
Crafting gives 600 xp an hour, no matter the project. If a project takes 1 hour, you get 600 xp. If it takes 3 hours, you get 1800 xp. At the rate of 600 xp an hour, it takes 1050 hours to get to level 15. That's 1050 Mark 6 projects, or 350 Mark X projects. So, you can play with those numbers. I calculated it out for running Mark 6 items, which only cost you common and uncommon materials. I also did not include the xp you get from crafting the components, so the real number will be a bit less, but using Mark 6 items (doesn't matter what) and assuming that you craft 4 items ever hour for 4 hours a day, you will be done in about 65 days, give or take. Assuming no dilithium to finish now. That will also cost you a fair number of materials. I ran the calculations for ground weapons. The numbers are below.
For my time, its not worth running around hoping random drops give me what I need, or farming story mission harvesting points.
Also, old system, using only projects, your first school would be done in 33 days about, second in 25 days (total 58), third in 25 days (total 83), fourth and later in 27 days (total 110, 137, 164, and 191).
New system, the first 3 in 105 days-ish, would actually be a bit more for the second and third, but I'm rounding. Then another 105 days for the last four schools for a total of 210 days. Old way was faster, though not by that much overall, I will grant.
Finally, Doffing gives you dilithium, EC, stuff you can use for starbase, etc. Crafting gives you mark 6-10 items. Mark 10 might be useful, everything else is vendor trash. So what is that worth, counting the new EC vaule decrease? not enough for me to bother with it. There are better ways to get EC. Like Doffing. And better ways to get Mark 11 gear, like story missions.
Overall. If this took 40 days with the 20 hour xp project, it would be worth it to go into crafting majorly. At 105 days, and in my view not worth the time and material cost to craft vendor trash to go faster, I'm only in this for the TR-116B which I will craft for some of my characters, and anyone else who I like, who wants one, and who brings me the materials.
on FRIDAY, one day into the launch of the new system, there was already a TR-116B on the exchange for 500,000,000 EC. Someone with more Dilithium than sense, got through 15 levels of ground in less than a DAY. Watch Smirk's livestream from Friday, someone mentions it to him. I'm already at level 5 myself in ground weapons, and at minimum 2 in all others.
That's why it got changed (among other reasons I'm sure). This was not intended at all.
Well, unless one of our resident math wizards is willing to undertake that task, you're gonna be in a for a looong wait...
The problem is, while the Crafting system may take a while, it's not meant for you to just do research projects each day. You're actually supposed to craft items each day for XP. Example: I have level 5 Ground weapons currently. I can make Mk VIII items for 1,200 XP every hour and I have 3 slots. I craft 3 weapons and come back in an hour to 3600 XP, slot 3 more weapons then I have a grand total of 7200 XP, 1200 XP more than a 20 hour research project. Even more XP with Mark X+.
While this might not get you to level 20 immediately, I would be happy to help someone figure out totals for the system.
The problem is, while the Crafting system may take a while, it's not meant for you to just do research projects each day. You're actually supposed to craft items each day for XP. Example: I have level 5 Ground weapons currently. I can make Mk VIII items for 1,200 XP every hour and I have 3 slots. I craft 3 weapons and come back in an hour to 3600 XP, slot 3 more weapons then I have a grand total of 7200 XP, 1200 XP more than a 20 hour research project.
If I follow your logic I should craft worthless items none-stop.
The problem is, while the Crafting system may take a while, it's not meant for you to just do research projects each day. You're actually supposed to craft items each day for XP. Example: I have level 5 Ground weapons currently. I can make Mk VIII items for 1,200 XP every hour and I have 3 slots. I craft 3 weapons and come back in an hour to 3600 XP, slot 3 more weapons then I have a grand total of 7200 XP, 1200 XP more than a 20 hour research project.
yes but what is the point or utility of a level 50 player making half a dozen Mk VIII items every day?
yes but what is the point or utility of a level 50 player making half a dozen Mk VIII items every day?
Seems like a waste of resources.
That's not factoring in Mark X/XI/XII either, I'm not nearly high enough to get quality results from that.
However it seems Mark XI/XII items are getting decent modifiers which could potentially fetch huge EC on the exchange, notably someone who crafted a AP Mark XII [CrtD]x3.
It all comes down to numbers. Sure, if lil' ol me closes my wallet it won't really mean much. However, if many of us do, then it can mean something. There is power in numbers.
The real reason they are nerfing R&D is simple: money. If Cryptic makes the grind longer, they are more likely to sell the C Store boxes. That is the real reason they are making things longer for us all. Not only to give the new content more life, but also to make more money. This is the same reason the drop rate for Very Rare R&D mats is ridiculously low. I have said in game chat many times that I am currently at 59 elite runs and not one single VR mat. I don't think that is just a string of bad luck. They are obviously making a push to the C Store for mats. I decided a long time ago I wouldn't buy the c store mat boxes. Keys during a sale, sure. A ship pack, yeah. But not now. Not till this is resolved.
For us, the players, it comes to numbers as well. Back when they removed a significant source of fleet marks (some of you may remember the repeatable foundry mission used to give 50 fleet marks), we did the same thing. We kept the pressure on and we stopped spending our money on the game. This was back when you still got maybe 15 fleet marks from places like Colony Invasion and Fed Fleet Alert so getting 50 marks from a single, repeatable mission was huge and when they removed the mark reward from it, we let them know how unhappy we were. Skip ahead to now and look what we have? Defera gives a good amount of marks. Colony gives good marks, Fed Fleet alert - marks. Heck, you ever have the option now to get fleet marks from places like CCE.
I would have to say voicing our disdain along with closing our wallets did something there. It made the grind more manageable.
Like I said, disagree all you want. You are not going to chance my stance on this.
No, I am not who you think I am. I am someone different. I am instead a banana.
It all comes down to numbers. Sure, if lil' ol me closes my wallet it won't really mean much. However, if many of us do, then it can mean something. There is power in numbers.
The real reason they are nerfing R&D is simple: money. If Cryptic makes the grind longer, they are more likely to sell the C Store boxes. That is the real reason they are making things longer for us all. Not only to give the new content more life, but also to make more money. This is the same reason the drop rate for Very Rare R&D mats is ridiculously low. I have said in game chat many times that I am currently at 59 elite runs and not one single VR mat. I don't think that is just a string of bad luck. They are obviously making a push to the C Store for mats. I decided a long time ago I wouldn't buy the c store mat boxes. Keys during a sale, sure. A ship pack, yeah. But not now. Not till this is resolved.
For us, the players, it comes to numbers as well. Back when they removed a significant source of fleet marks (some of you may remember the repeatable foundry mission used to give 50 fleet marks), we did the same thing. We kept the pressure on and we stopped spending our money on the game. This was back when you still got maybe 15 fleet marks from places like Colony Invasion and Fed Fleet Alert so getting 50 marks from a single, repeatable mission was huge and when they removed the mark reward from it, we let them know how unhappy we were. Skip ahead to now and look what we have? Defera gives a good amount of marks. Colony gives good marks, Fed Fleet alert - marks. Heck, you ever have the option now to get fleet marks from places like CCE.
I would have to say voicing our disdain along with closing our wallets did something there. It made the grind more manageable.
Like I said, disagree all you want. You are not going to chance my stance on this.
I can actually agree about the Fleet Mark changes.
That's not factoring in Mark X/XI/XII either, I'm not nearly high enough to get quality results from that.
However it seems Mark XI/XII items are getting decent modifiers which could potentially fetch huge EC on the exchange, notably someone who crafted a AP Mark XII [CrtD]x3.
Until you have reached a certain level, you won't get a pruple.
Until you have reached a certain level, you won't get a pruple.
That's not including a VR DOFF which will give you +30 Crafting skill, but you are mostly correct.
I bought a few R&D packs with Stipend ZEN and got a few +25 and +50 Catalysts. They're on the exchange for a hefty price, but you can definitely get a purple if you are close to the skill requirement.
Some items are far out of reach and are level locked though so technically you do need to get to level 15, which is pretty intimidating.
My intrest in the crafting system just went from "this could be cool" to "nope f' it not gonna bother now".
The dil cost for finishign projects early is also stupid high, 1000 dil per hour, not counting discounts ><. Means its gonna take me over 2 days of dil farming and refining to hurry *one* project.
And it's not like i need dil for other things either, like gear, fleet projects, etc etc.
Here's my issue with this. I already have a job. I work on average 60 hours a week. Popping on and starting a few crafting cycles, then going and playing some maps was a bit of a grind, but at least I got to go do something fun after I started the projects.
I don't need my entertainment to be as tedious as my job. I don't need menial boring tasks to shoehorn me into logging into Farmville in Space. I want to play a game. A GAME. With the old system, it would have been a relatively simple matter to slot the projects, and let everything level itself in a few months.
With this change - everything in the crafting system will be completely obsolete and underpowered by the time the average player gets finished. Expansion gear, Season 11, the next three lockboxes. I'm a lifetime subscriber so I can't just walk away from an investment, but I can damned well give any new money to other companies. Cryptic might not feel it and they might not care, but It'll certainly make me feel better.
What should we call this "game" now? Starville? Farmtrek?
I have to admit to being annoyed about people being able to slot more than one 20 hr mission for research. Personally, my R&D was not able to do this - I suppose it was working for me as intended. However I'm really PO'd that others were able to do it and are now really ahead of the game due to a 'glitch'. I can only assume that some people are already max level for beams as I've seen Multi Directional Beams all over the place on the exchange from 38 - 80 million EC. How can this be possible given the new system hasnt even been out a full week unless they've taken advantage of some kind of exploit? Sure you can dump dil to advance progress . . . but isnt that a suspicious amount in addition to being able to advance more than one 20 hr R&D mission at a time? How is it fair that people in my situation of having this work as intended are never going to be able to reap the same early benefits without a ridiculous amount of time invested to catch up?
Be happy, Neverwinter's economy is far worse and they've even account-bound their master keys from what I've heard.
I don't know about that, but their auction house uses Astral Diamonds (their Dilithium) as a unit of exchange and I believe there's a posting fee. So it's not the same kind of system.
Comments
I'd like to see some validity to this claim.
I'd like to see validity in yours.
Well, unless one of our resident math wizards is willing to undertake that task, you're gonna be in a for a looong wait...
We would have to know how long, each day, a player can reslot projects.
And a moments thought shows that number to be hugely variable.
Nowadays I probably get no more than two hours playtime a day.
Obviously someone able to put more time in would go faster.
However, for myself and given I want to do other things ingame as well as crafting, I doubt the side projects would speed things up that much.
Certainly not enough to offset this ill thought out decision.
And after that?
You've got to see crafting in the context it's intended to be viewed in. Crafting in STO is an attempt to:
1) Create new player economies. We're encouraged to trade in materials, components and finished items. It's why EVERYTHING in crafting is Bind on Equip.
2) Encourage player socialisation. We're encouraged to work with fleet mates or other players to fill the gaps in our own crafting skills.
3) Provide long term goals. If this was just another Reputation-length run you'd be finished in forty days and would be twiddling your thumbs until the next month-long system came out.
Now don't get me wrong, the system isn't perfect. There needs to be more for lower-level players to do. Someone else has suggested that high quality consumables should be added to the recipe list. I'd propose that 'tweaking' existing items should also be something for lower players to engage in (maybe make the difficulty of the tweak reflect the number of mods being changed or the number of mks the item is increasing by).
But the concept is sound. It just needs *more*.
Considering that crafting the basic materials only nets around 5-20 xp and the levels are in the thousands and millions.
Yeah, good luck with that.
That's why it got changed (among other reasons I'm sure). This was not intended at all.
While this might not get you to level 20 immediately, I would be happy to help someone figure out totals for the system.
But this can still be done.
If I follow your logic I should craft worthless items none-stop.
What? No.
You can still do exactly that. I bet they power leveled through it by using only one slot anyway, makes repetitive clicking easier.
This update won't change anything in that regard. Anyone with a godzillion amount of dilithium can still burn through crafting schools that quickly.
yes but what is the point or utility of a level 50 player making half a dozen Mk VIII items every day?
Seems like a waste of resources.
However it seems Mark XI/XII items are getting decent modifiers which could potentially fetch huge EC on the exchange, notably someone who crafted a AP Mark XII [CrtD]x3.
You are, yes.
It all comes down to numbers. Sure, if lil' ol me closes my wallet it won't really mean much. However, if many of us do, then it can mean something. There is power in numbers.
The real reason they are nerfing R&D is simple: money. If Cryptic makes the grind longer, they are more likely to sell the C Store boxes. That is the real reason they are making things longer for us all. Not only to give the new content more life, but also to make more money. This is the same reason the drop rate for Very Rare R&D mats is ridiculously low. I have said in game chat many times that I am currently at 59 elite runs and not one single VR mat. I don't think that is just a string of bad luck. They are obviously making a push to the C Store for mats. I decided a long time ago I wouldn't buy the c store mat boxes. Keys during a sale, sure. A ship pack, yeah. But not now. Not till this is resolved.
For us, the players, it comes to numbers as well. Back when they removed a significant source of fleet marks (some of you may remember the repeatable foundry mission used to give 50 fleet marks), we did the same thing. We kept the pressure on and we stopped spending our money on the game. This was back when you still got maybe 15 fleet marks from places like Colony Invasion and Fed Fleet Alert so getting 50 marks from a single, repeatable mission was huge and when they removed the mark reward from it, we let them know how unhappy we were. Skip ahead to now and look what we have? Defera gives a good amount of marks. Colony gives good marks, Fed Fleet alert - marks. Heck, you ever have the option now to get fleet marks from places like CCE.
I would have to say voicing our disdain along with closing our wallets did something there. It made the grind more manageable.
Like I said, disagree all you want. You are not going to chance my stance on this.
No - it's changed for the exact OPPOSITE!!
People can still level up to 15 in a few hours by spending 1.9 million dilithium - they want this!!!
What they don't want is people doing it faster by NOT spending dilithium.
So their reasoning is - make it take longer and make it harder and more people will try to spend dilithium to fast track it.
This is ALL about the money - nothing more.
Until you have reached a certain level, you won't get a pruple.
I bought a few R&D packs with Stipend ZEN and got a few +25 and +50 Catalysts. They're on the exchange for a hefty price, but you can definitely get a purple if you are close to the skill requirement.
Some items are far out of reach and are level locked though so technically you do need to get to level 15, which is pretty intimidating.
My intrest in the crafting system just went from "this could be cool" to "nope f' it not gonna bother now".
The dil cost for finishign projects early is also stupid high, 1000 dil per hour, not counting discounts ><. Means its gonna take me over 2 days of dil farming and refining to hurry *one* project.
And it's not like i need dil for other things either, like gear, fleet projects, etc etc.
1.) You get 2 free slots at start
2.) You can get up to nine slots
3.) You can slot more than one 20 hour project of the same school
I don't need my entertainment to be as tedious as my job. I don't need menial boring tasks to shoehorn me into logging into Farmville in Space. I want to play a game. A GAME. With the old system, it would have been a relatively simple matter to slot the projects, and let everything level itself in a few months.
With this change - everything in the crafting system will be completely obsolete and underpowered by the time the average player gets finished. Expansion gear, Season 11, the next three lockboxes. I'm a lifetime subscriber so I can't just walk away from an investment, but I can damned well give any new money to other companies. Cryptic might not feel it and they might not care, but It'll certainly make me feel better.
What should we call this "game" now? Starville? Farmtrek?
Yeah but that system makes sense. This is STO!!:rolleyes:
Show me the money!
I knew there was something I did not consider.
That's because they have no equivalent to EC.
I don't know about that, but their auction house uses Astral Diamonds (their Dilithium) as a unit of exchange and I believe there's a posting fee. So it's not the same kind of system.