I realize authors need to self promote, but some of our opinions this is really not the place or the time, for some of us it feels like you are "ambulance chasing" if you get my drift.
I spent about 30 hours of my free time over the last 4 days working on these exploration missions... for free... for this game... and for players to have just a taste of the potential of Foundry exploration. And I'm certainly not the best at it. And for this company... which, ah I won't go there.
Sorry if you feel like that is ambulance chasing. I was trying to step up to the plate, because I believe that Foundry authors can do this task better than Cryptic.
I get that you have some grand hopes for an exploration system developed by the devs. I do not. I actually dread it. It would be a flavorless grind or a scan 5/5 rocks on New Romulus, or some other nonsense with buckets to fill and repetitive tasks to perform.
The Foundry can actually deliver exploration, IMO. Just my opinion.
Not sure I really understand. I can't rely on Cryptic's useless Foundry UI to get plays. I have to self-promote my missions. Every author does, unless they are happy with 1 review every 3 months. Sorry to spam you, but I have little choice.
It sounds like you'd rather not have anyone try to make Foundry content that satisfies your exploration cravings, because you're pissed at Cryptic.
I'm pretty sure that's not what it sounds like. I accept that it's what you're hearing. I'll try to clarify:
I'm not pissed at Cryptic. Or anyone else.
What I meant to communicate was that I don't think your self-promotion in this thread is doing anything to help the community and might actually be harmful.
I also wanted to suggest that your comments might be motivated more by the desire (for whatever reason) to promote your work than by an interest in the topic at hand: the removal of Exploration.
Without any information on if, how, and when Cryptic might improve the Foundry so that it's more robust and accessible, replacing Exploration with Foundry content seems like a bad idea to me.
I think it would be absolutely brilliant if the Foundry was improved. But since the Foundry isn't improved, and the've no announced no plans to do so, then relying on your excellent work seems to be a bad idea and also very unfair to you.
I'm pretty sure that's not what it sounds like. I accept that it's what you're hearing. I'll try to clarify:
I'm not pissed at Cryptic. Or anyone else.
What I meant to communicate was that I don't think your self-promotion in this thread is doing anything to help the community and might actually be harmful.
I also wanted to suggest that your comments might be motivated more by the desire (for whatever reason) to promote your work than by an interest in the topic at hand: the removal of Exploration.
Without any information on if, how, and when Cryptic might improve the Foundry so that it's more robust and accessible, replacing Exploration with Foundry content seems like a bad idea to me.
I think it would be absolutely brilliant if the Foundry was improved. But since the Foundry isn't improved, and the've no announced no plans to do so, then relying on your excellent work seems to be a bad idea and also very unfair to you.
And, well...there you go.
You still haven't explained how my self-promotion is bad for the community. You are being vague.
And I'm not sure that I understand:
"They can't remove that scan 5/5 rocks mission... and replace it with a mission made by a tool that is FAR MORE POWERFUL than genesis."
I can't remember a single cluster mission with any of the features we already have in the foundry, like:
branchng dialogue
dynamic stories
choice or the illusion of choice
triggers (was there even a clusters mission out there where something exploded besides a ship that you destroyed?)
etc. etc. etc.
We can do a lot more than genesis ever did. So, you can't point to the limitations of the Foundry as an excuse to not remove the crappy cluster missions. Foundry can do more than genesis ever could, in spite of the limitations and lack of dev support from producers.
They are replacing missions made by a brain-dead blender, with missions made by an actual thinking and sentient person. I think that is a good trade off, if people can find those missions.
They are replacing missions made by a brain-dead blender, with missions made by an actual thinking and sentient person. I think that is a good trade off, if people can find those missions.
I think you might be mistaken here.
They are not replacing the Exploration missions with Foundry missions. We already have both. All they're doing is removing Exploration missions.
Or are you suggesting that the Foundry will dry up if Exploration isn't removed?
I spent about 30 hours of my free time over the last 4 days working on these exploration missions... for free... for this game... and for players to have just a taste of the potential of Foundry exploration. .....Sorry if you feel like that is ambulance chasing. I was trying to step up to the plate, because I believe that Foundry authors can do this task better than Cryptic.
I appreciate what you are doing but, you missed my point, which is we cannot rely on the public to produce, much less produce quality missions on a reoccurring bases. What happen if your computer blows up, or some other tragedy occurs? Will everyone devote 8 hours a days four days to create a mission? One can hope, but the only way to get this company to listen to us, is for the entire community to pressure them and lobby for something better than what they have given us. Even you must agree that after 4 years, there are some things that should be merely consistent like just departing a system. When I returned to this game I expected some of those things to be fixed. Now maybe the Devs are going thru this in stages, but based on what they drop on us regarding the "Exploration" missions is just wrong.
I don't want a constant grind, I want emersion. I can see and have advocated in the past where Foundry missions could play a big role in creating the "Exploration" aspect of this game. But better use of travel, visual effects, discovering new people, places and things will set the stage for those foundry missions. I don't expect perfection, and I don't expect it to be fixed other night. But I don't expect something more than what was presented by the Devs. Maybe we need to start a thread and we explain how we envision this MMO would help the Devs and the customers understand each other?
They are not replacing the Exploration missions with Foundry missions. We already have both. All they're doing is removing Exploration missions.
Or are you suggesting that the Foundry will dry up if Exploration isn't removed?
For those who will miss the opportunity to explore these particular locations, we will be adding doors to the Foundry so that player-created missions can make use of these settings. The limitless nature of the potential missions that can be created using the Foundry as well as the high quality of content that Foundry authors continue to deliver are both exactly in line with the original goals of Exploration Clusters.
- Exploration Cluster Removal Dev Blog
So no, we don't currently have both because Foundry cannot make use of the Cluster doors.
And yes, the purpose of adding those doors to the Foundry is specifically to replace the subtraction of what Cryptic is calling substandard content.
What I think is more damaging to the community than an author "shamelessly" advertising his product is attacking that author for trying to contribute to his community by filling a void.
But can anyone give me a clear concise explanation of what the Current Exploration Clusters offer that cannot be obtained from a Foundry missions?
I've never played EVE Online so I don't have a comparison. But looking at future changes Cryptic wants to make, in particular getting rid of the different sectors in favor of one open map, I think it would be awesome to have at each location in this vast space a new mission of unknown variety to take part in. That starts with having a high amount of unique content and I can't think of a more unique method than having the community create it's own content. Because who knows a Star Trek fan better than themselves?
And I don't think creating content for a game should be the sole responsibility of developers nor feel I should be compensated for the content I create. We don't hold that argument for games like the Sims, which requires you to create your own content to be of any value. We don't expect Bill Gates to create our spreadsheets and documents for us or claim that MS owes us some kind of compensation for creating our own PowerPoints.
I'm fine with a model of developers creating the ability for me to create my own universe and focus on bug fixes, stabililty and new gear/ships/functionality. If it's done right then STO could be on the short list of games that has been completely created by it's user base as far as story and immersion. I don't know about you, but that's sounds pretty cool.
For those who will miss the opportunity to explore these particular locations, we will be adding doors to the Foundry so that player-created missions can make use of these settings. The limitless nature of the potential missions that can be created using the Foundry as well as the high quality of content that Foundry authors continue to deliver are both exactly in line with the original goals of Exploration Clusters.
- Exploration Cluster Removal Dev Blog
So no, we don't currently have both because Foundry cannot make use of the Cluster doors.
And yes, the purpose of adding those doors to the Foundry is specifically to replace the subtraction of what Cryptic is calling substandard content.
What I think is more damaging to the community than an author "shamelessly" advertising his product is attacking that author for trying to contribute to his community by filling a void.
But can anyone give me a clear concise explanation of what the Current Exploration Clusters offer that cannot be obtained from a Foundry missions?
I've never played EVE Online so I don't have a comparison. But looking at future changes Cryptic wants to make, in particular getting rid of the different sectors in favor of one open map, I think it would be awesome to have at each location in this vast space a new mission of unknown variety to take part in. That starts with having a high amount of unique content and I can't think of a more unique method than having the community create it's own content. Because who knows a Star Trek fan better than themselves?
And I don't think creating content for a game should be the sole responsibility of developers nor feel I should be compensated for the content I create. We don't hold that argument for games like the Sims, which requires you to create your own content to be of any value. We don't expect Bill Gates to create our spreadsheets and documents for us or claim that MS owes us some kind of compensation for creating our own PowerPoints.
I'm fine with a model of developers creating the ability for me to create my own universe and focus on bug fixes, stabililty and new gear/ships/functionality. If it's done right then STO could be on the short list of games that has been completely created by it's user base as far as story and immersion. I don't know about you, but that's sounds pretty cool.
I played Star Trek Online, Eve Online, Kerbal Space Program, and when I get the chance Space Engineering.
Players creating content is a great tool for authoring new content. I even created some content and received comments on improving it.
BUT
To not get compensated for the time spent create a Foundry mission because Cryptic mandate the exploration cluster not up to standard. Forcing players to create content is wrong. Developers get paid $25 to $75 almost hourly. So another poster posted, he spent 8 hours for 4 days making a foundry mission. So that's roughly $400 he would have gottent paid at the lowest amount. Cryptic is making $400 and above from the added content and saved $400. So, if they profited. They earned $800 dollars off a player expense of time and work.
LATTER POINT
People who created content for movies, video games, comics, promotions, and other media even if it was just fun. Are paid usually in some form.
SINCE
Content from Foundry cannot be randomized. How is that Exploration?
SInce you will not be flying through sector space and hit a unknown system. How is Foundry Exploratoin?
Content from Foundry cannot be randomized. How is that Exploration?
SInce you will not be flying through sector space and hit a unknown system. How is Foundry Exploratoin?
I invite you to play my first attempts and ask yourself, "Gee, is this one of the aid the planet ones, or do I have to kill 5/5 ships?"
Content from Foundry cannot be randomized. How is that Exploration?
SInce you will not be flying through sector space and hit a unknown system. How is Foundry Exploratoin?
Foundry content can be randomized to a degree. And to your question "how is Foundry Exploration", well it's not. It's a tool to create missions. But that tool can be used to create a mission where you explore.
To the rest of your point about compensation...It just seems to me like another excuse. Why would you refuse to play Foundry content, and be satisfied, because someone else made the decision creating content for a game they enjoy without compesation was of interest to them? Why should you as the player care what another player decides to do with their time? If the end result is you enjoing new content what's it to you?
Are you really telling me you would refuse to play a Foundry mission, of however quality, because you prefer that person to be paid for thier time? Really?
Why would you refuse to play Foundry content, and be satisfied, because someone else made the decision creating content for a game they enjoy without compesation was of interest to them?
No because Cryptic/Star Trek Online/Developers have the means and tools to make exploration part of the game improving Genesis over 4 years. In their laziness or inability they are removing a Star Trek aspect of the game which is mainly exploration. No offense to Foundry developers. It seems the money they are making are going into people pockets and other game development not Star Trek Online.
Why should you as the player care what another player decides to do with their time?
I don't care what another player does with their time. In my time, I started working on a client for my own game that would allow created maps or procedural created maps. Since Cryptic is removing a exploration aspect of this game.
If the end result is you enjoing new content what's it to you?
Playing something of quality.
Why would you refuse to play Foundry content, and be satisfied, because someone else made the decision creating content for a game they enjoy without compesation was of interest to them?
Yes. I know the time it takes to make content and since Cryptic makes TRIBBLE loads of $$$ they can give some to content creaters. Since they cut the bottom line of paying developers.
I create content for Second Life, same aspect but I can choose to get paid from the content I create or not.
In the end, I think space exploration is more like below not a Foundry mission. It should never be the same for all players.
To not get compensated for the time spent create a Foundry mission because Cryptic mandate the exploration cluster not up to standard. Forcing players to create content is wrong. Developers get paid $25 to $75 almost hourly. So another poster posted, he spent 8 hours for 4 days making a foundry mission. So that's roughly $400 he would have gottent paid at the lowest amount. Cryptic is making $400 and above from the added content and saved $400. So, if they profited. They earned $800 dollars off a player expense of time and work....People who created content for movies, video games, comics, promotions, and other media even if it was just fun. Are paid usually in some form.
Devs have provided us with a basic system to create missions in. We are not coding, texturing, recording sounds etc. so it is hardly equivalent. And not everything has to be monetised. I volunteer for lots of organisations because I'm passionate about the work. I view this no differently. It is a great way to get my story ideas into a game, which I would not be able to do otherwise, and get it out into the world.
Content from Foundry cannot be randomized. How is that Exploration? SInce you will not be flying through sector space and hit a unknown system. How is Foundry Exploratoin?
It is exploration of the unknown if you haven't played it before. And there are a lot to play. Mars doesn't randomise every time we send a probe. Why so het up about randomisation - the old system was ****. Yes it would be nice if they create a brilliant system that worked amazingly well but they've been a bit busy on the last several expansions which were brilliant. You can't work on every player's pet area of joy all of the time, especially when their only income is coming from zen rather than a regular, reliable subscription rate with which to pay salaries on time.
Whether through subscription or Zen purchases, we pay Cryptic to develop this game.
If Cryptic then turns around and says "we are cutting an entire class of content and relying on the players to make up for it"... that is, bluntly, exploitation.
It remains exploitation even if some people come forward and say "oh, yes, we're happy to be exploited, here are our Foundry missions to prove it". It may be technically legal - ethically, it still stinks.
Now, if Cryptic are not going to cut that class of content - if they have plans, however vague and unformalized at this point - for some new and better exploration system... well, that would be fine with me. But I will invite them, cordially, to say as much. I don't ask for a binding commitment to methods or to timescales... just some statement along the lines of "we know exploration is an important part of Star Trek, and we have plans to develop that aspect of the game".
But unless and until some statement like that emerges, I stand by my statement, which is that Cryptic's behaviour stinks.
(So, incidentally, does the behaviour of the - fortunately fairly small - "we are happy to be exploited" group. I'm making a mental note of the people who are self-promoting their Foundry content in this thread, with a view to never playing any of their missions at all. No, guys, I'm not boycotting all Foundry content. Just yours.)
So no, we don't currently have both because Foundry cannot make use of the Cluster doors.
What I actually said was: "They are not replacing the Exploration missions with Foundry missions. We already have both. All they're doing is removing Exploration missions."
What I think is more damaging to the community than an author "shamelessly" advertising his product is attacking that author for trying to contribute to his community by filling a void.
Well, thank goodness no one is doing that, then.
But can anyone give me a clear concise explanation of what the Current Exploration Clusters offer that cannot be obtained from a Foundry missions?
Here's one:
The Current Exploration Clusters do not rely on players to provide the development of exploration-themed content (however reliable and talented those players and however wanting the current content might be).
It is exploration of the unknown if you haven't played it before. And there are a lot to play. Mars doesn't randomise every time we send a probe. Why so het up about randomisation - the old system was ****. Yes it would be nice if they create a brilliant system that worked amazingly well but they've been a bit busy on the last several expansions which were brilliant. You can't work on every player's pet area of joy all of the time, especially when their only income is coming from zen rather than a regular, reliable subscription rate with which to pay salaries on time.
Sandbox gaming; or at least the illusion of it. To just head off 'out there', and see what you find. An exploration themed mission is still just another mission. I do exploration to get away from plot missions and queued events.
I play the clusters for the same reason I play PvP; because it's unscripted and you can never ever know how it is going to turn out, no matter how many times you do it. Well... that's one of the reasons anyway.
The randomness is an important element. The cluster zones themselves are an important element.
The Foundry cannot replace the clusters; it simply doesn't have the required functionality.
(So, incidentally, does the behaviour of the - fortunately fairly small - "we are happy to be exploited" group. I'm making a mental note of the people who are self-promoting their Foundry content in this thread, with a view to never playing any of their missions at all. No, guys, I'm not boycotting all Foundry content. Just yours.)
Wow, you're just a fountain of good will and community spirit aren't you?
So, players decide to selflessly produce content you haven't experienced before. And quite honestly having played Kirkfat's Exploration missions , pretty darned good content, and you decide to boycott it because you are mad at Cryptic ?
Your attitude is toxic and very anti-community.
So please, go on and have your little boycott of Foundry.
Please add me to the list of authors whose missions you will never play.
Seriously, please. I wouldn't want you playing them anyway.
No one is happy to "be exploited", but that isn't what's happening here. I'd explain it, but your hateful , toxic attitude tells me you wouldn't listen anyway.
Players taking time to craft stories and missions happens because we are storytellers and we enjoy creating missions. No more, No Less.
This recent change to exploration clusters simply inspired some people to make exploration missions.
How exactly is that a bad thing ?
Should we simply stop writing stories because it offends your sensibilities about the company?
To the folks that take the time to play Foundry missions (new exploration styled ones or older missions) simply, thank you.
You think you're doing something good for the community by creating Foundry content.
I think you're supporting Cryptic's bad decision here, and that, in the long run, will do more harm to the game than any amount of Foundry content you can create.
So, I'm not going to support your decisions here. And since you won't even notice me not playing your content unless I tell you about it - I'm telling you. All I can do is make a gesture, and if nobody knows I'm making it, it's pointless even doing that.
(I'm wondering, now, if I should add "Proudly banned from @hippiejon's Foundry missions" to my sig... naah. Pointless.)
We are bashing our heads against a Neotroium wall.
They are going to bring back the old exploration/diplo missions and they sure as hell haven't told us in any shape or form that they plan to replace it anytime soon or at all.
I call that actions that cryptic and PWE are taking. Storefront. They make the outside of the storefront as interesting as can be to draw in the free to play players in and when they come they see 3 items on the store sheleves. Federation/KDF & Romulan class game play and a dusty item called the foundry in a darken conner of the STO store.
and the outline of another dusty item called exploration. That has been pulled from the store sheleves and is no longer produced or sold.
STO remindes me of the old video store section of my local supermarket. At one-time it was pretty big and over time it got smalleer and smaller and the selections got fewer and fewer and then one day it was gone all together.
I get the same type of feeling from STO.
I foresee that PWE will pull the plug on STO STO with in the next 2 to 5 years at the most.
At its current rate of decline in the eyes of many of the current STO players.
They make the outside of the storefront as interesting as can be to draw in the free to play players in and when they come they see 3 items on the store sheleves. Federation/KDF & Romulan class game play and a dusty item called the foundry in a darken conner of the STO store.
I don't think I can reply to that without falling foul of the mods. Needless to say, that's your opinion and I can show you where to stick it if you like. As far as I am concerned, authors, such as kirksplat and hippiejon above, have produced far deeper and more interesting content than the regular Cryptic missions and they deserve a little more respect than that. They've done the job of exploration content for years, removing the clusters is simply an acknowledgement of reality.
I foresee that PWE will pull the plug on STO STO with in the next 2 to 5 years at the most.
Then hop off and troll another game rather than spread forum doom. The devs are doing a damn good job and this game will be around for a long while yet, with or without doomsayers.
You think you're doing something good for the community by creating Foundry content.
I think you're supporting Cryptic's bad decision here, and that, in the long run, will do more harm to the game than any amount of Foundry content you can create.
So, I'm not going to support your decisions here. And since you won't even notice me not playing your content unless I tell you about it - I'm telling you. All I can do is make a gesture, and if nobody knows I'm making it, it's pointless even doing that.
(I'm wondering, now, if I should add "Proudly banned from @hippiejon's Foundry missions" to my sig... naah. Pointless.)
Meh, whether it's a "bad decision" is a matter of opinion. personally, I think it's a moot point, and will take what I can get and run with it. In my case that means making Foundry missions.
Your... "gesture" conveys a mixed message. It's like those "animal lovers" that burn fake fur coats.... Or someone who protests bad food by refusing to eat... I can't really see why you expect people to agree with you.
Well, I think I've given my reasons why I think it's a bad decision earlier in the thread - I've seen nothing since then that changes my mind.
I've nothing against the Foundry in itself, of course - as an add-on to the game's content, and not a replacement for it. I do, however, find the attitudes of some contributors to this thread, well, distinctly reprehensible. Hence my small and no doubt meaningless gesture.
I'm reasonably convinced I'm right on this issue, so in a sense it doesn't actually matter whether people agree with me or not.... I do wish Cryptic would listen, though. However, I'm speaking only for myself, and I have no particular desire to speak for anyone else.
This recent change to exploration clusters simply inspired some people to make exploration missions.
How exactly is that a bad thing ?
This is a sentiment that three of the more vocal Foundry types have expressed in this thread. I don't think anyone (other than they themselves) has suggested that there's anything wrong with some being inspired to make exploration missions.
And yet, for some reason, they seem unable or unwilling to separate disagreement with their opinion in this forum from an attack on their creativity.
I can't think of any reason for that which ends up with me thinking that relying on them to provide content is a good idea.
In answer to the question:
It's not a bad thing, and not what people are objecting to.
This is a sentiment that three of the more vocal Foundry types have expressed in this thread. I don't think anyone (other than they themselves) has suggested that there's anything wrong with some being inspired to make exploration missions.
And yet, for some reason, they seem unable or unwilling to separate disagreement with their opinion in this forum from an attack on their creativity.
I can't think of any reason for that which ends up with me thinking that relying on them to provide content is a good idea.
In answer to the question:
It's not a bad thing, and not what people are objecting to.
Actually, there have a few people who have been attacking this sort of thing because they're calling Cryptic "lazy" over letting the Foundry members making new missions. There have been a few people who are suggesting that these people should also get paid for their work.
The main gist of the problems is that those players don't want the Foundry missions, they want the old exploration missions, no matter how broken they are.
You think you're doing something good for the community by creating Foundry content.
I think you're supporting Cryptic's bad decision here, and that, in the long run, will do more harm to the game than any amount of Foundry content you can create.
I'm in agreement with this. It does seem to me like Cryptic is exploiting authors a bit here with a "You don't want grind, then go make it yourself" approach. I personally have nothing against the foundry with the exception of the mission search window, which is just awful. However it's hard not to believe that Cryptic is banking on what exactly appears to be happening. A select few Power Authors, some of whom are in this thread screaming to the heavens and turning this content crisis into a publicity/marketing stunt for their missions, to pick up the slack as unpaid Devs.
I support the Foundry as an add-on component to the game, not a replacement for official content. I think of the Foundry as my Captain heading to the ship's holodeck in-between missions for a holonovel adventure.
Exploration should be saved. Rip out the scanning of materials so it doesn't interfere with the monetization of crafting, and update the Genesis engine to not use the Borg (let's just say they found their lost dynasty). Then please begin work on a new Foundry mission search interface.
Thank you.
Thank you for the T6 Galaxy Class. - I support Tovan Khev. - Please bring back the exploration missions.
Actually, there have a few people who have been attacking this sort of thing because they're calling Cryptic "lazy" over letting the Foundry members making new missions. There have been a few people who are suggesting that these people should also get paid for their work.
The main gist of the problems is that those players don't want the Foundry missions, they want the old exploration missions, no matter how broken they are.
I don't think this is a very accurate summary, at least of my position.
I don't think Cryptic are being lazy - I'm sure they're working terribly hard, developing new lockboxes and new grind zones. I do think they've made a massively bad decision in axing what should be a core component of the game, and I do think it is unethical for them to expect players to fill that gap.
I wouldn't be too worried, myself, about the loss of the exploration clusters. Cryptic has neglected that aspect of the game, and it's long past time - in my opinion - that they redeveloped and improved it. (No disrespect intended to those who are genuinely fond of the old exploration clusters. But, having done exploration dailies seven hundred and more times, I am thoroughly aware of their limitations.) Basically, I'm opposed to them being dropped with no official replacement in the offing.
(I really am trying to save my ire and bile for Cryptic, here, but the self-promoters in the Foundry clique ain't making it easy - especially with responses that have a strong subtext of "how dare you criticise Wonderful Us, you peon?".... I should rise above it, I know. Petty, that's what I am, petty.)
I don't think this is a very accurate summary, at least of my position.
I don't think Cryptic are being lazy - I'm sure they're working terribly hard, developing new lockboxes and new grind zones. I do think they've made a massively bad decision in axing what should be a core component of the game, and I do think it is unethical for them to expect players to fill that gap.
I wouldn't be too worried, myself, about the loss of the exploration clusters. Cryptic has neglected that aspect of the game, and it's long past time - in my opinion - that they redeveloped and improved it. (No disrespect intended to those who are genuinely fond of the old exploration clusters. But, having done exploration dailies seven hundred and more times, I am thoroughly aware of their limitations.) Basically, I'm opposed to them being dropped with no official replacement in the offing.
(I really am trying to save my ire and bile for Cryptic, here, but the self-promoters in the Foundry clique ain't making it easy - especially with responses that have a strong subtext of "how dare you criticise Wonderful Us, you peon?".... I should rise above it, I know. Petty, that's what I am, petty.)
Yes, yes you are being petty. HippieJon, the person you criticized a while back was one of the first and LOUDEST people to argue against removing these clusters. I'm the same way.
But I also have Tacofangs on record as saying Genesis and the randomization had to be abandoned because to quote "it took as much time to fix the maps Genesis created as it would have to just make them from scratch. Hence why it was abandoned."
Second, we're not being exploited. We do get "paid" for our foundry missions. They're called Foundry Tips. Players who like our missions drop between 25-100 Dilithium by choice as a thank you for the mission. Spotlighted authors like myself can make thousands of refined dilithium in a day. And that dilithium can be exchanged for Zen, etc. Those tips helped pay for my fleet's Embassy.
As for advertising, yeah, we kinda have to because the foundry UI and Cryptic doesnt exactly give us the best advertising in game. I'm grateful for Smirk and before him, Brandon, for putting it out there, but many authors only see 25 plays if their lucky in the first month of their mission being published. And in this case, Kirkfat and the others are PISSED about the exploration content going away. We can hope Cryptic will do something. But thats in the hands of Geko and DeAngelou. I'm praying X2 and the Delta Quadrant will be that, but Ill keep my skeptical spectacles on.
In the meantime, I'll be damned if this Star Trek game lacks exploration and make my own missions to fill that void. And maybe if they become popular enough, the big wigs will decide to actually MAKE exploration a priority again. 'Cause believe me, we'll burn out on trying to make new exploration all the time.
Perfectly well aware of Foundry tips... have even been known to leave them, in the past. How is letting the player base support other players in doing the developers' job any more ethical on Cryptic's part?
And, if and when you burn out doing their job for them, for nothing, what is to prevent Cryptic's response from being "eh well, never mind, there'll be another one along in a minute"?
(Also, I think you're misremembering who called whom "toxic and hateful". But what do I know, I'm only a peon.)
Perfectly well aware of Foundry tips... have even been known to leave them, in the past. How is letting the player base support other players in doing the developers' job any more ethical on Cryptic's part?
And, if and when you burn out doing their job for them, for nothing, what is to prevent Cryptic's response from being "eh well, never mind, there'll be another one along in a minute"?
(Also, I think you're misremembering who called whom "toxic and hateful". But what do I know, I'm only a peon.)
By that same logic, the Foundry shouldn't exist because anything in there is "doing Cryptic's job." Cryptic wouldn't make the same stories that I do in the foundry, because they're not me. If the Foundry can fill a role that Cryptic is neglected, it gives it purpose. I wrote a 3 part series about Ferasan culture and why player non-Klingons are treated equally. While its an obvious gap in Cryptic's story, I guarantee you that Kestral wouldn't have written the same dialogue, I'm positive that Tacofangs would not have made the same maps, and I dont think Geko would think of some of the same mechanics I used to pull it off.
And honestly, many of us want to do these exploration missions because we don't want other players to not have exploration in this game. In addition, its an opportunity to gather our community together and work on something we love - the foundry. Its a united cause among us to do something.
2) youre right, nothing is stopping them. But you know what would be more successful in bringing them back? Us making exploration missions and then showing "heres X number of players who'd played these missions. There's a market for exploration, please bring it back." Don't think this is some self-serving attitude. We want Cryptic-made exploration just as much as you do. But we also know some members of the staff in high positions only care about numbers at times. So, we'll get them their numbers for them.
3) You are being toxic and hateful. Condemning an entire community in this game for not agreeing with your sentiment is willful ignorance and self-importance. We're not your enemy. But we're willing to do SOMETHING to prove that exploration has a place in this game. If Cryptic chooses not to listen to that, its their loss. We're still going to do it, just to tell the story we have floating around. Because we're writers and that's what we do.
And honestly, many of us want to do these exploration missions because we don't want other players to not have exploration in this game. In addition, its an opportunity to gather our community together and work on something we love - the foundry. Its a united cause among us to do something.
I would add that we can do it better than a blender or a Cryptic system, and I think the devs know that.
Self-promotion alert! This is why I made my two exploration missions: to try to show what we can do, even though I'm not really a top-notch author.
We can do this, if we try. And it can feel more like Star Trek than anything Cryptic has ever done. Of course, players will need to find our missions.
2) ... But you know what would be more successful in bringing them back? Us making exploration missions and then showing "heres X number of players who'd played these missions. There's a market for exploration, please bring it back." ...
Comments
I spent about 30 hours of my free time over the last 4 days working on these exploration missions... for free... for this game... and for players to have just a taste of the potential of Foundry exploration. And I'm certainly not the best at it. And for this company... which, ah I won't go there.
Sorry if you feel like that is ambulance chasing. I was trying to step up to the plate, because I believe that Foundry authors can do this task better than Cryptic.
I get that you have some grand hopes for an exploration system developed by the devs. I do not. I actually dread it. It would be a flavorless grind or a scan 5/5 rocks on New Romulus, or some other nonsense with buckets to fill and repetitive tasks to perform.
The Foundry can actually deliver exploration, IMO. Just my opinion.
I'm pretty sure that's not what it sounds like. I accept that it's what you're hearing. I'll try to clarify:
I'm not pissed at Cryptic. Or anyone else.
What I meant to communicate was that I don't think your self-promotion in this thread is doing anything to help the community and might actually be harmful.
I also wanted to suggest that your comments might be motivated more by the desire (for whatever reason) to promote your work than by an interest in the topic at hand: the removal of Exploration.
Without any information on if, how, and when Cryptic might improve the Foundry so that it's more robust and accessible, replacing Exploration with Foundry content seems like a bad idea to me.
I think it would be absolutely brilliant if the Foundry was improved. But since the Foundry isn't improved, and the've no announced no plans to do so, then relying on your excellent work seems to be a bad idea and also very unfair to you.
And, well...there you go.
You still haven't explained how my self-promotion is bad for the community. You are being vague.
And I'm not sure that I understand:
"They can't remove that scan 5/5 rocks mission... and replace it with a mission made by a tool that is FAR MORE POWERFUL than genesis."
I can't remember a single cluster mission with any of the features we already have in the foundry, like:
branchng dialogue
dynamic stories
choice or the illusion of choice
triggers (was there even a clusters mission out there where something exploded besides a ship that you destroyed?)
etc. etc. etc.
We can do a lot more than genesis ever did. So, you can't point to the limitations of the Foundry as an excuse to not remove the crappy cluster missions. Foundry can do more than genesis ever could, in spite of the limitations and lack of dev support from producers.
They are replacing missions made by a brain-dead blender, with missions made by an actual thinking and sentient person. I think that is a good trade off, if people can find those missions.
I think you might be mistaken here.
They are not replacing the Exploration missions with Foundry missions. We already have both. All they're doing is removing Exploration missions.
Or are you suggesting that the Foundry will dry up if Exploration isn't removed?
I appreciate what you are doing but, you missed my point, which is we cannot rely on the public to produce, much less produce quality missions on a reoccurring bases. What happen if your computer blows up, or some other tragedy occurs? Will everyone devote 8 hours a days four days to create a mission? One can hope, but the only way to get this company to listen to us, is for the entire community to pressure them and lobby for something better than what they have given us. Even you must agree that after 4 years, there are some things that should be merely consistent like just departing a system. When I returned to this game I expected some of those things to be fixed. Now maybe the Devs are going thru this in stages, but based on what they drop on us regarding the "Exploration" missions is just wrong.
I don't want a constant grind, I want emersion. I can see and have advocated in the past where Foundry missions could play a big role in creating the "Exploration" aspect of this game. But better use of travel, visual effects, discovering new people, places and things will set the stage for those foundry missions. I don't expect perfection, and I don't expect it to be fixed other night. But I don't expect something more than what was presented by the Devs. Maybe we need to start a thread and we explain how we envision this MMO would help the Devs and the customers understand each other?
For those who will miss the opportunity to explore these particular locations, we will be adding doors to the Foundry so that player-created missions can make use of these settings. The limitless nature of the potential missions that can be created using the Foundry as well as the high quality of content that Foundry authors continue to deliver are both exactly in line with the original goals of Exploration Clusters.
- Exploration Cluster Removal Dev Blog
So no, we don't currently have both because Foundry cannot make use of the Cluster doors.
And yes, the purpose of adding those doors to the Foundry is specifically to replace the subtraction of what Cryptic is calling substandard content.
What I think is more damaging to the community than an author "shamelessly" advertising his product is attacking that author for trying to contribute to his community by filling a void.
But can anyone give me a clear concise explanation of what the Current Exploration Clusters offer that cannot be obtained from a Foundry missions?
I've never played EVE Online so I don't have a comparison. But looking at future changes Cryptic wants to make, in particular getting rid of the different sectors in favor of one open map, I think it would be awesome to have at each location in this vast space a new mission of unknown variety to take part in. That starts with having a high amount of unique content and I can't think of a more unique method than having the community create it's own content. Because who knows a Star Trek fan better than themselves?
And I don't think creating content for a game should be the sole responsibility of developers nor feel I should be compensated for the content I create. We don't hold that argument for games like the Sims, which requires you to create your own content to be of any value. We don't expect Bill Gates to create our spreadsheets and documents for us or claim that MS owes us some kind of compensation for creating our own PowerPoints.
I'm fine with a model of developers creating the ability for me to create my own universe and focus on bug fixes, stabililty and new gear/ships/functionality. If it's done right then STO could be on the short list of games that has been completely created by it's user base as far as story and immersion. I don't know about you, but that's sounds pretty cool.
I played Star Trek Online, Eve Online, Kerbal Space Program, and when I get the chance Space Engineering.
Players creating content is a great tool for authoring new content. I even created some content and received comments on improving it.
BUT
To not get compensated for the time spent create a Foundry mission because Cryptic mandate the exploration cluster not up to standard. Forcing players to create content is wrong. Developers get paid $25 to $75 almost hourly. So another poster posted, he spent 8 hours for 4 days making a foundry mission. So that's roughly $400 he would have gottent paid at the lowest amount. Cryptic is making $400 and above from the added content and saved $400. So, if they profited. They earned $800 dollars off a player expense of time and work.
LATTER POINT
People who created content for movies, video games, comics, promotions, and other media even if it was just fun. Are paid usually in some form.
SINCE
Content from Foundry cannot be randomized. How is that Exploration?
SInce you will not be flying through sector space and hit a unknown system. How is Foundry Exploratoin?
I invite you to play my first attempts and ask yourself, "Gee, is this one of the aid the planet ones, or do I have to kill 5/5 ships?"
Foundry content can be randomized to a degree. And to your question "how is Foundry Exploration", well it's not. It's a tool to create missions. But that tool can be used to create a mission where you explore.
To the rest of your point about compensation...It just seems to me like another excuse. Why would you refuse to play Foundry content, and be satisfied, because someone else made the decision creating content for a game they enjoy without compesation was of interest to them? Why should you as the player care what another player decides to do with their time? If the end result is you enjoing new content what's it to you?
Are you really telling me you would refuse to play a Foundry mission, of however quality, because you prefer that person to be paid for thier time? Really?
No because Cryptic/Star Trek Online/Developers have the means and tools to make exploration part of the game improving Genesis over 4 years. In their laziness or inability they are removing a Star Trek aspect of the game which is mainly exploration. No offense to Foundry developers. It seems the money they are making are going into people pockets and other game development not Star Trek Online.
Why should you as the player care what another player decides to do with their time?
I don't care what another player does with their time. In my time, I started working on a client for my own game that would allow created maps or procedural created maps. Since Cryptic is removing a exploration aspect of this game.
If the end result is you enjoing new content what's it to you?
Playing something of quality.
Why would you refuse to play Foundry content, and be satisfied, because someone else made the decision creating content for a game they enjoy without compesation was of interest to them?
Yes. I know the time it takes to make content and since Cryptic makes TRIBBLE loads of $$$ they can give some to content creaters. Since they cut the bottom line of paying developers.
I create content for Second Life, same aspect but I can choose to get paid from the content I create or not.
In the end, I think space exploration is more like below not a Foundry mission. It should never be the same for all players.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrizm2gnQBo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLtmEjqzg7M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3olcLICtjFA
This is Cryptic. Have you compared the two?
Devs have provided us with a basic system to create missions in. We are not coding, texturing, recording sounds etc. so it is hardly equivalent. And not everything has to be monetised. I volunteer for lots of organisations because I'm passionate about the work. I view this no differently. It is a great way to get my story ideas into a game, which I would not be able to do otherwise, and get it out into the world.
It is exploration of the unknown if you haven't played it before. And there are a lot to play. Mars doesn't randomise every time we send a probe. Why so het up about randomisation - the old system was ****. Yes it would be nice if they create a brilliant system that worked amazingly well but they've been a bit busy on the last several expansions which were brilliant. You can't work on every player's pet area of joy all of the time, especially when their only income is coming from zen rather than a regular, reliable subscription rate with which to pay salaries on time.
If Cryptic then turns around and says "we are cutting an entire class of content and relying on the players to make up for it"... that is, bluntly, exploitation.
It remains exploitation even if some people come forward and say "oh, yes, we're happy to be exploited, here are our Foundry missions to prove it". It may be technically legal - ethically, it still stinks.
Now, if Cryptic are not going to cut that class of content - if they have plans, however vague and unformalized at this point - for some new and better exploration system... well, that would be fine with me. But I will invite them, cordially, to say as much. I don't ask for a binding commitment to methods or to timescales... just some statement along the lines of "we know exploration is an important part of Star Trek, and we have plans to develop that aspect of the game".
But unless and until some statement like that emerges, I stand by my statement, which is that Cryptic's behaviour stinks.
(So, incidentally, does the behaviour of the - fortunately fairly small - "we are happy to be exploited" group. I'm making a mental note of the people who are self-promoting their Foundry content in this thread, with a view to never playing any of their missions at all. No, guys, I'm not boycotting all Foundry content. Just yours.)
What I actually said was: "They are not replacing the Exploration missions with Foundry missions. We already have both. All they're doing is removing Exploration missions."
Well, thank goodness no one is doing that, then.
Here's one:
The Current Exploration Clusters do not rely on players to provide the development of exploration-themed content (however reliable and talented those players and however wanting the current content might be).
Sandbox gaming; or at least the illusion of it. To just head off 'out there', and see what you find. An exploration themed mission is still just another mission. I do exploration to get away from plot missions and queued events.
I play the clusters for the same reason I play PvP; because it's unscripted and you can never ever know how it is going to turn out, no matter how many times you do it. Well... that's one of the reasons anyway.
The randomness is an important element. The cluster zones themselves are an important element.
The Foundry cannot replace the clusters; it simply doesn't have the required functionality.
Wow, you're just a fountain of good will and community spirit aren't you?
So, players decide to selflessly produce content you haven't experienced before. And quite honestly having played Kirkfat's Exploration missions , pretty darned good content, and you decide to boycott it because you are mad at Cryptic ?
Your attitude is toxic and very anti-community.
So please, go on and have your little boycott of Foundry.
Please add me to the list of authors whose missions you will never play.
Seriously, please. I wouldn't want you playing them anyway.
No one is happy to "be exploited", but that isn't what's happening here. I'd explain it, but your hateful , toxic attitude tells me you wouldn't listen anyway.
Players taking time to craft stories and missions happens because we are storytellers and we enjoy creating missions. No more, No Less.
This recent change to exploration clusters simply inspired some people to make exploration missions.
How exactly is that a bad thing ?
Should we simply stop writing stories because it offends your sensibilities about the company?
To the folks that take the time to play Foundry missions (new exploration styled ones or older missions) simply, thank you.
You think you're doing something good for the community by creating Foundry content.
I think you're supporting Cryptic's bad decision here, and that, in the long run, will do more harm to the game than any amount of Foundry content you can create.
So, I'm not going to support your decisions here. And since you won't even notice me not playing your content unless I tell you about it - I'm telling you. All I can do is make a gesture, and if nobody knows I'm making it, it's pointless even doing that.
(I'm wondering, now, if I should add "Proudly banned from @hippiejon's Foundry missions" to my sig... naah. Pointless.)
They are going to bring back the old exploration/diplo missions and they sure as hell haven't told us in any shape or form that they plan to replace it anytime soon or at all.
I call that actions that cryptic and PWE are taking. Storefront. They make the outside of the storefront as interesting as can be to draw in the free to play players in and when they come they see 3 items on the store sheleves. Federation/KDF & Romulan class game play and a dusty item called the foundry in a darken conner of the STO store.
and the outline of another dusty item called exploration. That has been pulled from the store sheleves and is no longer produced or sold.
STO remindes me of the old video store section of my local supermarket. At one-time it was pretty big and over time it got smalleer and smaller and the selections got fewer and fewer and then one day it was gone all together.
I get the same type of feeling from STO.
I foresee that PWE will pull the plug on STO STO with in the next 2 to 5 years at the most.
At its current rate of decline in the eyes of many of the current STO players.
I don't think I can reply to that without falling foul of the mods. Needless to say, that's your opinion and I can show you where to stick it if you like. As far as I am concerned, authors, such as kirksplat and hippiejon above, have produced far deeper and more interesting content than the regular Cryptic missions and they deserve a little more respect than that. They've done the job of exploration content for years, removing the clusters is simply an acknowledgement of reality.
Then hop off and troll another game rather than spread forum doom. The devs are doing a damn good job and this game will be around for a long while yet, with or without doomsayers.
Your... "gesture" conveys a mixed message. It's like those "animal lovers" that burn fake fur coats.... Or someone who protests bad food by refusing to eat... I can't really see why you expect people to agree with you.
My character Tsin'xing
I've nothing against the Foundry in itself, of course - as an add-on to the game's content, and not a replacement for it. I do, however, find the attitudes of some contributors to this thread, well, distinctly reprehensible. Hence my small and no doubt meaningless gesture.
I'm reasonably convinced I'm right on this issue, so in a sense it doesn't actually matter whether people agree with me or not.... I do wish Cryptic would listen, though. However, I'm speaking only for myself, and I have no particular desire to speak for anyone else.
This is a sentiment that three of the more vocal Foundry types have expressed in this thread. I don't think anyone (other than they themselves) has suggested that there's anything wrong with some being inspired to make exploration missions.
And yet, for some reason, they seem unable or unwilling to separate disagreement with their opinion in this forum from an attack on their creativity.
I can't think of any reason for that which ends up with me thinking that relying on them to provide content is a good idea.
In answer to the question:
It's not a bad thing, and not what people are objecting to.
Actually, there have a few people who have been attacking this sort of thing because they're calling Cryptic "lazy" over letting the Foundry members making new missions. There have been a few people who are suggesting that these people should also get paid for their work.
The main gist of the problems is that those players don't want the Foundry missions, they want the old exploration missions, no matter how broken they are.
I'm in agreement with this. It does seem to me like Cryptic is exploiting authors a bit here with a "You don't want grind, then go make it yourself" approach. I personally have nothing against the foundry with the exception of the mission search window, which is just awful. However it's hard not to believe that Cryptic is banking on what exactly appears to be happening. A select few Power Authors, some of whom are in this thread screaming to the heavens and turning this content crisis into a publicity/marketing stunt for their missions, to pick up the slack as unpaid Devs.
I support the Foundry as an add-on component to the game, not a replacement for official content. I think of the Foundry as my Captain heading to the ship's holodeck in-between missions for a holonovel adventure.
Exploration should be saved. Rip out the scanning of materials so it doesn't interfere with the monetization of crafting, and update the Genesis engine to not use the Borg (let's just say they found their lost dynasty). Then please begin work on a new Foundry mission search interface.
Thank you.
I don't think Cryptic are being lazy - I'm sure they're working terribly hard, developing new lockboxes and new grind zones. I do think they've made a massively bad decision in axing what should be a core component of the game, and I do think it is unethical for them to expect players to fill that gap.
I wouldn't be too worried, myself, about the loss of the exploration clusters. Cryptic has neglected that aspect of the game, and it's long past time - in my opinion - that they redeveloped and improved it. (No disrespect intended to those who are genuinely fond of the old exploration clusters. But, having done exploration dailies seven hundred and more times, I am thoroughly aware of their limitations.) Basically, I'm opposed to them being dropped with no official replacement in the offing.
(I really am trying to save my ire and bile for Cryptic, here, but the self-promoters in the Foundry clique ain't making it easy - especially with responses that have a strong subtext of "how dare you criticise Wonderful Us, you peon?".... I should rise above it, I know. Petty, that's what I am, petty.)
Yes, yes you are being petty. HippieJon, the person you criticized a while back was one of the first and LOUDEST people to argue against removing these clusters. I'm the same way.
But I also have Tacofangs on record as saying Genesis and the randomization had to be abandoned because to quote "it took as much time to fix the maps Genesis created as it would have to just make them from scratch. Hence why it was abandoned."
Second, we're not being exploited. We do get "paid" for our foundry missions. They're called Foundry Tips. Players who like our missions drop between 25-100 Dilithium by choice as a thank you for the mission. Spotlighted authors like myself can make thousands of refined dilithium in a day. And that dilithium can be exchanged for Zen, etc. Those tips helped pay for my fleet's Embassy.
As for advertising, yeah, we kinda have to because the foundry UI and Cryptic doesnt exactly give us the best advertising in game. I'm grateful for Smirk and before him, Brandon, for putting it out there, but many authors only see 25 plays if their lucky in the first month of their mission being published. And in this case, Kirkfat and the others are PISSED about the exploration content going away. We can hope Cryptic will do something. But thats in the hands of Geko and DeAngelou. I'm praying X2 and the Delta Quadrant will be that, but Ill keep my skeptical spectacles on.
In the meantime, I'll be damned if this Star Trek game lacks exploration and make my own missions to fill that void. And maybe if they become popular enough, the big wigs will decide to actually MAKE exploration a priority again. 'Cause believe me, we'll burn out on trying to make new exploration all the time.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
And, if and when you burn out doing their job for them, for nothing, what is to prevent Cryptic's response from being "eh well, never mind, there'll be another one along in a minute"?
(Also, I think you're misremembering who called whom "toxic and hateful". But what do I know, I'm only a peon.)
By that same logic, the Foundry shouldn't exist because anything in there is "doing Cryptic's job." Cryptic wouldn't make the same stories that I do in the foundry, because they're not me. If the Foundry can fill a role that Cryptic is neglected, it gives it purpose. I wrote a 3 part series about Ferasan culture and why player non-Klingons are treated equally. While its an obvious gap in Cryptic's story, I guarantee you that Kestral wouldn't have written the same dialogue, I'm positive that Tacofangs would not have made the same maps, and I dont think Geko would think of some of the same mechanics I used to pull it off.
And honestly, many of us want to do these exploration missions because we don't want other players to not have exploration in this game. In addition, its an opportunity to gather our community together and work on something we love - the foundry. Its a united cause among us to do something.
2) youre right, nothing is stopping them. But you know what would be more successful in bringing them back? Us making exploration missions and then showing "heres X number of players who'd played these missions. There's a market for exploration, please bring it back." Don't think this is some self-serving attitude. We want Cryptic-made exploration just as much as you do. But we also know some members of the staff in high positions only care about numbers at times. So, we'll get them their numbers for them.
3) You are being toxic and hateful. Condemning an entire community in this game for not agreeing with your sentiment is willful ignorance and self-importance. We're not your enemy. But we're willing to do SOMETHING to prove that exploration has a place in this game. If Cryptic chooses not to listen to that, its their loss. We're still going to do it, just to tell the story we have floating around. Because we're writers and that's what we do.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
I would add that we can do it better than a blender or a Cryptic system, and I think the devs know that.
Self-promotion alert! This is why I made my two exploration missions: to try to show what we can do, even though I'm not really a top-notch author.
We can do this, if we try. And it can feel more like Star Trek than anything Cryptic has ever done. Of course, players will need to find our missions.
This. To the Nth degree.