I want to explore. I don't explore without heading off into the unknown. Just being told that I am doing that by the script defeats the point. I have to do it myself.
But you can head off to the unknown in a Foundry mission. You were always following a script with the clusters. It was a predictable roll of the die. And there are all kinds of things we can do in a Foundry mission to encourage you to deviate from the go here, go there. Objectives can be entirely optional. Easter eggs can be all over the place. You can choose to explore further at any moment. There are missions out there that you can complete in 20 minutes. But, if you really want to explore, talk to everyone, search for every clue, find the Easter eggs, etc., it takes more like an hour.
I hope that appeals to your passions for exploration.
I remember nothing resembling that exploration and optional content in an exploration cluster mission, nor would I expect it from a revamp of a blender.
1) The problem I'm having with many of the supporters of this move is that they keep trying to explain that we are somehow 'wrong' for being against it.
That is what supporters do. They support something. If you oppose it, you tell the supporters why they are wrong.
But you can head off to the unknown in a foundry mission. You were always following a script with the clusters. It was a predictable roll of the die. And there are all kinds of things we can do in a Foundry mission to encourage you to deviate from the go here, go there. Objectives can be entirely optional. Easter eggs can be all over the place. You can choose to explore further at any moment. There are missions out there that you can complete in 20 minutes. But, if you really want to explore, talk to everyone, search for every clue, find the Easter eggs, etc., it takes more like an hour.
I remember nothing resembling that exploration and optional content in an exploration cluster mission, nor would I expect it from a revamp of a blender.
You are... still kind of focusing on the missions alone.
I really don't understand why I'm having so much trouble getting my point across. :(
It's about the experience, not the particulars of the things you find. The clusters themselves are a part of the experience.
That is what supporters do. They support something. If you oppose it, you tell the supporters why they are wrong.
Well, yeah, OK. I just have a hard time getting my head around the notion of insisting that people can't actually be liking what they claim to be liking, even with that in mind; and you know people are doing just that.
You are... still kind of focusing on the missions alone.
I really don't understand why I'm having so much trouble getting my point across. :(
It's about the experience, not the particulars of the things you find. The clusters themselves are a part of the experience.
Uhh...
It's about the journey, not the destination?
So it's the box where you fly around and press f? That's your version of rewarding exploration? Every one of those boxes looks pretty identical. All you see are anomalies.
If you ask me, the "journey" between entering a cluster and "Explore Unknown System" isn't the highlight of the clusters. It's the scenery. And, now, it will also be about the mystery and the stories and journey of discovery. Not flying around a shoebox, getting annoyed every time you come upon a worthless anomaly.
So it's a box where you fly around and press f? That's your version of rewarding exploration? Every one of those boxes looks pretty identical. All you see are anomalies.
If you ask me, the "journey" between entering a cluster and "Explore Unknown System" isn't the highlight of the clusters. It's the scenery. And, now, it will also be about the mystery and the stories and journey of discovery. Not flying around a shoebox, getting annoyed every time you come upon a worthless anomaly.
Not the 'highlight', just an important part of the experience. It shapes it, and helps make it what it is. It is why the clusters are different from everything else in STO. No menus, no queues; just heading off and seeing what's out there, and finding something different every time (if not necessarily all that different).
Like I keep saying, it's not the missions by themselves. Of course I would like better missions in the clusters; I've been asking for them for years, but they are only half the point.
Let me try this another way. Take your standard hack and slash fantasy MMORPG. Who is the explorer? The person who sets off into the wilderness just to see what they find, or the person who picks 'mysterious lost citadel' off the PvE instanced dungeon list?
That's the problem here. I am an explorer (or so the Bartle Test keeps telling me), I want to explore. I don't explore without heading off into the unknown. Just being told that I am doing that by the script defeats the point. I have to do it myself.
You ARE doing it yourself. Lets compare the process shall we...
Current State Exploration
1. fly to the edge of a map, e.g. Delta Velonis
2. presented with a prompt to enter the territory
3. once inside you fly around until you locate an "Explore Unknown System" popup
4. enter the system then proceed to some canned oft repeated set of gameplay
Foundry State Exploration
1. fly to a point on the map, e.g. Delta Velonis
2. presented with a list of missions to choose from
3. once selected you are thrown immediately into a story that could be ANYTHING
notice how the first two steps are EXACTLY THE SAME. Fly to a point and make a choice to interact. in this comparison you are giving up the action of flying around looking for missions to immediately selecting a mission and doing your flying around and exploring IN ONE LESS STEP.
There was a poster in this thread that wrote an extension explanation of how he role plays with the exploration clusters. I was taken aback by how much imagination he needed to expend to make what he was obviously describing as a lackluster game mechanic into something he could enjoy.
Why waste energy, play a foundry mission and let the authors do the imagination for you.
EDIT: Actually, I'm stopping my argument. not because it's pointless, but because I just realized all the counter arguments are doing is giving authors ideas for their next mission. An empty space map in the foundry is just as big as an "exploration cluster". If you like flying around looking for mystery in unknown space that is easily created.
Foundry State Exploration
1. fly to a point on the map, e.g. Delta Velonis
2. presented with a list of missions to choose from
3. once selected you are thrown immediately into a story that could be ANYTHING
Careful now there, Rekurzion,
Step 2. will probably be Open mission journal and somehow try to find a Foundry mission that starts at this door. I've seen no indications that the clusters will present something to players, as far as what Foundry missions are there. So people will probably have to fight tooth and nail with the UI.
I hope that isn't the case though. Basically, somebody is going to have to know that if you search "title" for "Delta Volanis," you get a list of missions with Delta Volanis in the mission description. And even then, it might only show 50 results.
This stuff is a problem that needs to be addressed by devs. I'm not too sure that they are aware of it.
NO! (You win the award for creating the biggest oxymoron ever btw.)
A dice roll is inherently unpredictable, that's why we use them when a random outcome is called for. You wouldn't say a coin is predictable because it only has two sides. It's only got two possible outcomes, but when you toss the coin you don't know what you're going to get.
A foundry mission is the exact antithesis of exploration.
But you can head off to the unknown in a Foundry mission
Maybe this will help you understanding why people don't consider this exploration. If you run a foundry mission a hundred times, it will be identical each time. It's the perfect antithesis of exploration. It can't even have branching dialog.
Conversely, the exploration clusters, you don't know what combination of things you're going to get. It may be limited like a coin, but you don't know if it's going to be heads or tails until you flip it. It would be great if there were more diversity in the missions, but there's no need to kill what tiny bit of diversity there is.
If you run a foundry mission a hundred times, it will be identical each time. It's the perfect antithesis of exploration. It can't even have branching dialog.
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. We have tons of branching dialogue. We can even fake branching objectives. We can do things like trigger explosions or enemy mobs, given a player's choice in a dialogue. We can set explosions to timers of sorts. We can even have alternate endings. It is not as linear as you think it is. It is far more powerful than anything done in a cluster mission.
Also, what I meant by the die is that you will know for certain that it will be 1 of something, depending on how many sides the die has. With foundry, you literally have no idea, most of the time, what will happen or what it's really about at all.
And we don't really expect you to play the mission more than once, unless you want to see different outcomes. Go play a different author's mission if you're done with mine. Go explore what else is out there in that great unknown.
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. We have tons of branching dialogue. We can even fake branching objectives. We can do things like trigger explosions or enemy mobs, given a player's choice in a dialogue. We can set explosions to timers of sorts. We can even have alternate endings. It is not as linear as you think it is. It is far more powerful than anything done in a cluster mission.
You're right, I mean branching objectives, not dialog - like going to different maps or having different things spawn based on the dialog choices or actions in the map.
Also, what I meant by the die is that you will know for certain that it will be 1 of something, depending on how many sides the die has. With foundry, you literally have no idea, most of the time, what will happen or what it's really about at all.
I think the main issue is that some of us see exploration in two separate ways, and others (I think you're in this camp) view them as the same thing.
I would say it's not simply being unaware or not knowing what's going to happen that provides exploration. It's the fact that it's not completely scripted. That this particular time I'm doing something will be personal.
I'll try to give you an example: Mass Effect (substitute any suitable modern RPG on rails) - I would not say is exploration. I don't know what's going to happen before I play it, but I'm not exploring. Dialog choice can impact the flow of the narrative. Actions can impact the flow of the narrative. But it's essentially a predetermined story with some branches. It's a narrative - there's an implied story being told. The key is there's a narrative, some other person is driving the fiction, telling the story.
Exploration is the opposite. I would say games like FTL, NetHack, etc offer exploration. There's a set up giving motivation, there's a goal, but what happens in between is essentially random. The encounters are random, the enemies are random. What you find is random. The Exploration Clusters offer this in a fashion. "Go see what's out there." Yes, you're going to get one of a handful of missions, with some random aliens and some slightly different planetary graphics. It's not much, but it's something. Put that in front of someone with imagination and they have an experience - a somewhat unique one. And the experience is their own. It was generated for them, it was personal.
It would be great if there was more variety, but what's there is a beginning that should be expanded not axed.
You're right, I mean branching objectives, not dialog - like going to different maps or having different things spawn based on the dialog choices or actions in the map.
I think the main issue is that some of us see exploration in two separate ways, and others (I think you're in this camp) view them as the same thing.
I would say it's not simply being unaware or not knowing what's going to happen that provides exploration. It's the fact that it's not completely scripted. That this particular time I'm doing something will be personal.
I'll try to give you an example: Mass Effect (substitute any suitable modern RPG on rails) - I would not say is exploration. I don't know what's going to happen before I play it, but I'm not exploring. Dialog choice can impact the flow of the narrative. Actions can impact the flow of the narrative. But it's essentially a predetermined story with some branches. It's a narrative - there's an implied story being told. The key is there's a narrative, some other person is driving the fiction, telling the story.
Exploration is the opposite. I would say games like FTL, NetHack, etc offer exploration. There's a set up giving motivation, there's a goal, but what happens in between is essentially random. The encounters are random, the enemies are random. What you find is random. The Exploration Clusters offer this in a fashion. "Go see what's out there." Yes, you're going to get one of a handful of missions, with some random aliens and some slightly different planetary graphics. It's not much, but it's something. Put that in front of someone with imagination and they have an experience - a somewhat unique one. And the experience is their own. It was generated for them, it was personal.
It would be great if there was more variety, but what's there is a beginning that should be expanded not axed.
OK, this is by far the clearest explanation offered so far in this thread. I think that I understand. But, with Foundry, you have no idea what is going to happen, what mobs I'll use, what locations will occur, etc. etc. And it's all just as scripted as it would be if a machine randomly scripted it with different variables, just for you.
We don't expect you to play it twice. So, from your point of view, isn't that random and personal? I mean, it's not like you have a choice when the blender writes an instance for you. You have to fight who the blender makes you fight in that instance.
But, with a long list of Foundry missions that are each unique, you don't really know what you're going to experience, except that it will be different from the last experience in that cluster. Because it's a different mission.
Also, we can do this with Foundry:
having different things spawn based on the dialog choices or actions in the map.
I understand. In fact I've done it in some foundry missions I've built. Mostly to spawn helper ships in space missions based on interaction with an object. But the point is that this branching dialog doesn't meet the definition of exploration I put forward. Assuming it's capable of creating something on the level of Mass Effect level interactions, that's not still not exploration.
OK, this is by far the clearest explanation offered so far in this thread. I think that I understand. But, with Foundry, you have no idea what is going to happen, what mobs I'll use, what locations will occur, etc. etc. And it's all just as scripted as it would be if a machine randomly scripted it with different variables.
So just touching back one what I said in my last post - simply not knowing what's going to happen doesn't meet the criteria for exploration. When I watch a movie the first time, I have no idea what's going to happen. I'm not exploring, I'm being told a story.
It was kind of a short lived thing, but there some "choose your own adventure" style DVDs and VHS tapes. But again, even these are choosing
We don't expect you to play it twice. So, from your point of view, isn't that random? I mean, it's not like you have a choice when the blender writes an instance for you. You have to fight who the blender makes you fight in that instance.
So there's the rub. Exploration missions are something you could play twice and have a different experience. Or a dozen times, or a hundred times. Eventually you'll get an idea of the limits of the system, but the experience will be slightly different each time. Again, more variety would be welcome.
But, with a long list of Foundry missions that are each unique, you don't really know what you're going to experience, except that it will be different from the last experience in that cluster. Because it's a different mission.
It's just not a substitute. They're not the same thing. It would be like taking out the Foundry and saying, well there's PVE queues, go play them - what happens will be based on your team! You can RP a story! You wouldn't think that was a good idea would you?
And I want to be clear, this isn't a competition between the Foundry and Exploration Clusters. They're different things and they meet the needs of different playstyles. A Foundry mission (or a lot of them) aren't a good substitute. It should be clear by the fact the Foundry is already in game as an option and you have people saying they would like to keep clusters. That on it's face should be sufficient to indicate one is not an effective replacement for the other.
So there's the rub. Exploration missions are something you could play twice and have a different experience. Or a dozen times, or a hundred times. Eventually you'll get an idea of the limits of the system, but the experience will be slightly different each time. Again, more variety would be welcome.
It's just not a substitute. They're not the same thing. It would be like taking out the Foundry and saying, well there's PVE queues, go play them - what happens will be based on your team! You can RP a story! You wouldn't think that was a good idea would you?
But if you're an explorer, you shouldn't be visiting the same place over and over again expecting a different experience. I don't understand the distinction here. Go explore strange new worlds, not the the same world on auto-repeat where the people are suddenly Vegans instead of hot dog lovers like the last time you vacationed there. That's not exploration. That's more like the definition of insanity, you know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
I also don't understand what that second paragraph is trying to say.
But if you're an explorer, you shouldn't be visiting the same place over and over again expecting a different experience. I don't understand the distinction here. Go explore strange new worlds, not the the same world on auto-repeat where the people are suddenly Vegans instead of hot dog lovers like the last time you vacationed there. That's not exploration. That's more like the definition of insanity, you know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
I also don't understand what that second paragraph is trying to say.
If they revamped the Genesis engine, and put the exploration clusters between certain sectors. It would have been nice. This video would be a good example of possiblities.
But if you're an explorer, you shouldn't be visiting the same place over and over again expecting a different experience. I don't understand the distinction here.
Go explore strange new worlds, not the the same world on auto-repeat where the people are suddenly Vegans instead of hot dog lovers like the last time you vacationed there. That's not exploration. That's more like the definition of insanity, you know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
The idea is that it's not the same place over and over. The conceit is that it's a different place that you're discovering. I understand STO's implementation is limited.
Your comparison to insanity is misguided. We understand how the system functions AND WE LIKE IT. We want it to be more than it is, but we'd prefer not lose what we have.
I also don't understand what that second paragraph is trying to say.
It's saying simply that the Foundry is not an acceptable substitute for Exploration Clusters. They're not the same thing, they're not what people who do clusters want. Foundry missions are already in game and if someone preferred them they would already be dong them instead of Clusters. Conversely there are people who find Clusters fun and prefer those.
If they revamped the Genesis engine, and put the exploration clusters between certain sectors. It would have been nice. This video would be a good example of possiblities.
You seem to be using a mistaken concept of what Genesis is.
Genesis does not create missions in real time. Genesis isn't even a part of the game. Genesis is a dev tool that they used to create a few thousand missions.
So it's the box where you fly around and press f? That's your version of rewarding exploration? Every one of those boxes looks pretty identical.
Keeping in mind that the only difference between that Exploration mission and an STF is the slider bar you can fill out in the Reputation box after.
And the only difference between that exploration mission and Tau Dewa is you get to click your reward choice for Tau Dewa after doing one of the dailies, but have to do three explorations to get the reward from the wrapper.
Oh and the exploration missions have variety. The Daily is the same exact mission. Every single time.
The Breen keep falling for the same sensor trick. YEARS later.
That's immersive story focused gameplay, lemme tell ya!
But if you're an explorer, you shouldn't be visiting the same place over and over again expecting a different experience. I don't understand the distinction here. Go explore strange new worlds, not the the same world on auto-repeat where the people are suddenly Vegans instead of hot dog lovers like the last time you vacationed there. That's not exploration. That's more like the definition of insanity, you know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
I also don't understand what that second paragraph is trying to say.
I'm not exploring the same place over and over again. I'm exploring uncharted parts of the B'Tran Cluster that I've never been to before. Planet XYZ12345 is different from where I was yesterday, Planet ABC0987. Different sky, different columns, different people (Crimto instead of Starlians).
But that Borg STF and that Voth Battlezone look suspiciously familiar. Like completely redundant.
I'm not exploring the same place over and over again. I'm exploring uncharted parts of the B'Tran Cluster that I've never been to before. Planet XYZ12345 is different from where I was yesterday, Planet ABC0987. Different sky, different columns, different people (Crimto instead of Starlians).
But that Borg STF and that Voth Battlezone look suspiciously familiar. Like completely redundant.
But, you're still delivering the same 10 Shield Generators, or still picking up the same five probe pieces, or still shooting the five alien mobs to death.
But, you're still delivering the same 10 Shield Generators, or still picking up the same five probe pieces, or still shooting the five alien mobs to death.
Aiding a new planet I've just discovered with the same standard set of starfleet provisions is really part of the routine of exploration and being in starfleet.
It's still a new planet I haven't aided before.
But when I visit the P'Jemm monastery, it's the exact same Undine who's once again impersonating the exact same ambassador.
Which content is the shallower content? Which of these is the low quality mission? Which has the higher standards of development?
They both seem pretty meh overall to me. I can just use my imagination more with the exploration system and pretend better and have more fun personally.
The New Crafting system, removes the need for particle traces, so the cluster mission scanning points are no longer needed. . .
If they were removed, then the cluster missions would only rely on their low quality although random (which is refreshing) content. And all the content in the Cluster Missions was not just about KILLING EVERYTHING! So there was some real Exploration. . .
But that limited exploration and other limited cluster missions would need to be Improved, and that takes imagination and time. . . Time which Cryptic could use to make a new ship for Zen, or a new Lock Box for Zen, or a new area for us to need better equipment for Zen. . . and on and on.
So compared to making Zen money, Revamping the Exploration system which would not make them Any Zen money is a Extremely Low Priority.
Although it is the most authentic Star Trek thing they could do (in my opinion)
So they continue to turn Star Trek into Battlestar Galactica=WAR, or Star Wars=WAR, or just Plain WAR. . . Because there is money to be made in it. While us true Star Trek explorers, desire exploration missions that surprise us and keep doing so. Where we can learn about new places, peoples and cultures and see wondrous sights never before seen. . .
Not just a well voice acted episode every once in a while. Have you noticed that the first 3 to 4 Episodes are 5 missions long, then the Worf voice acted episodes were only 3, and now the Tuvok Episode is only 1? (please forgive me if I am not remembering the numbers Exactly right, it is the idea I am trying to convey to you).
Yes I love those new Episodes! But I have noticed a definite slow down in the creation of this new content, ever since Cryptic has split their time between STO and Neverwinter. Haven't you?
We are losing more than just Cluster exploration missions, we are losing the Doff Chain missions where you could get blue and purple doffs at the end of them and redo them over and over. . .
We are losing first contact missions. Losing diplomatic missions. Losing Lots of Doff missions as other folks have already pointed out as they are playing with Version 9.5 on Tribble. We are also loosing 1440 dilithium a day.
I am not trying to be mean, I am just voicing the opinion that Starfleet was suppose to be a Peace Keeping force, that is now fighting on more fronts than ever in any of the series. . . Lets see we are fighting the Undine, the Voth, the Tal'Shiar, the Tholians, and the Borg, and still some Klingons. . . I believe that is more than many of the series put together.
So when some of you say Good they are getting rid of the Cluster Missions, . . . Realize that although your right they were not that good, . . . They Were One of the ONLY Random things in the game. . .
My last thought is this, If indeed Cryptic wants to pass the torch to the Really Hard working Foundry Authors, shouldn't they get some incentive, and more importantly, Shouldn't those authors get the same "Quality" tools for exploration missions, that Cryptic has been using to make their own "Quality" missions? So that way the "Quality" can be improved using the EXACT same Tools?
I have helped make missions using the Foundry and the tools in the Foundry are Nothing Close to the "Quality" tools that Cryptic has at their disposal. So Do they really want a "Increase in Quality across the Game or don't they? Because they need to release those tools to the Foundry Authors to really accomplish that goal. Lets see what they do, shall we?
I am against removing exploration zones from the game. I'm not fretting that much though. I'm just biding my time until "No Man's Sky" comes out.
Yes, the exploration in that game is what exploration in this game should have been.
So they butcher the cornerstone of Star Trek, exploration, in favour of what? Nothing.
They remove STFs so why not remove all those that doesn't get played enough. They might as well remove PvP due to the small number of players actually playing it.
No seriously, removing content is BAD Cryptic. Looking back on all the other times you have done that and the repercussions it had on the community, I would have thought that you had learned that it isn't a smart thing to do.
Now, if you decided to replace the exploration with a new system that is more like "No Man's Sky" then people would probably be ecstatic. Or if you simply improved the current one with more mission parameters and add Foundry doors to the map. That would start a truly random Foundry mission. That would be exploring the unknown.
For the Foundry to carry all the weight of exploration is BAR as it still is lacking huge amount or resources and functionality to be a good tool to make missions with. I'm talking about functionality and resources available in game already from mission that Cryptic have made. Like I don't know, NPCs that can switch loyalty during a mission and attack you or join your group for the rest of the mission. Or using a transporter to beam to different locations on the same map resource. Making it possible to test the routing and NPC critter spawning without having to launch the mission first. The option to make single player mission as well as 5 player missions. Making requirements for space suits or any other form of clothing category the default one when on a map. Making hostile environments that require suits to survive. Making maps that can take on up to 20 players or why not 50 players at the same time. Just to mention a few things that needs to improve before the Foundry even can start to fill the gap of the deleted exploration content.
It also need a better alien generator then the one we have now. Why can't we make aliens like the ones from the planet Cheron. Or avian species or aquatic species or canine species?
No removing the exploration maps and the diplomatic first contact missions is a disgrace.
For every change Cryptic presents these days I get less and less interested in playing this game. And I've stuck by this game since closed beta and poured money in to Cryptic's pockets. No I'm beginning to ask myself if it is really worth it. Especially when I read about games like "No Man's Sky" being developed.
Frankly, the exploration clusters, to me, were as they described them: redundant and they got boring after a while. I stopped doing anything with them months ago, with the exception of DOFF missions. And, the ironic thing, is that to do the DOFF missions, I would warp to the cluster, and just sit there where I showed up, load up the DOFF missions, and leave again - EXACTLY what I figure I'll be doing with the "anchor point" or whatever they put in there to facilitate said missions. So, from my own perspective, it really won't change much at all, except now I can get to the DOFF missions one warp sooner, so all is good!
Frankly, the exploration clusters, to me, were as they described them: redundant and they got boring after a while. I stopped doing anything with them months ago, with the exception of DOFF missions. And, the ironic thing, is that to do the DOFF missions, I would warp to the cluster, and just sit there where I showed up, load up the DOFF missions, and leave again - EXACTLY what I figure I'll be doing with the "anchor point" or whatever they put in there to facilitate said missions. So, from my own perspective, it really won't change much at all, except now I can get to the DOFF missions one warp sooner, so all is good!
Well you lose half the chances you had to get the mission to spawn with the change. But hey, it's all good!
I hope they pull the same tactic with some other piece of super boring, repetitive, extremely redundant content that's in the game that you participate in. Like STFs.
I'm not exploring the same place over and over again. I'm exploring uncharted parts of the B'Tran Cluster that I've never been to before. Planet XYZ12345 is different from where I was yesterday, Planet ABC0987. Different sky, different columns, different people (Crimto instead of Starlians).
you should write down the names of all the places you go to. It might surprise you. :P
Comments
But you can head off to the unknown in a Foundry mission. You were always following a script with the clusters. It was a predictable roll of the die. And there are all kinds of things we can do in a Foundry mission to encourage you to deviate from the go here, go there. Objectives can be entirely optional. Easter eggs can be all over the place. You can choose to explore further at any moment. There are missions out there that you can complete in 20 minutes. But, if you really want to explore, talk to everyone, search for every clue, find the Easter eggs, etc., it takes more like an hour.
I hope that appeals to your passions for exploration.
I remember nothing resembling that exploration and optional content in an exploration cluster mission, nor would I expect it from a revamp of a blender.
That is what supporters do. They support something. If you oppose it, you tell the supporters why they are wrong.
You are... still kind of focusing on the missions alone.
I really don't understand why I'm having so much trouble getting my point across.
It's about the experience, not the particulars of the things you find. The clusters themselves are a part of the experience.
Uhh...
It's about the journey, not the destination?
Well, yeah, OK. I just have a hard time getting my head around the notion of insisting that people can't actually be liking what they claim to be liking, even with that in mind; and you know people are doing just that.
So it's the box where you fly around and press f? That's your version of rewarding exploration? Every one of those boxes looks pretty identical. All you see are anomalies.
If you ask me, the "journey" between entering a cluster and "Explore Unknown System" isn't the highlight of the clusters. It's the scenery. And, now, it will also be about the mystery and the stories and journey of discovery. Not flying around a shoebox, getting annoyed every time you come upon a worthless anomaly.
Not the 'highlight', just an important part of the experience. It shapes it, and helps make it what it is. It is why the clusters are different from everything else in STO. No menus, no queues; just heading off and seeing what's out there, and finding something different every time (if not necessarily all that different).
You ARE doing it yourself. Lets compare the process shall we...
Current State Exploration
1. fly to the edge of a map, e.g. Delta Velonis
2. presented with a prompt to enter the territory
3. once inside you fly around until you locate an "Explore Unknown System" popup
4. enter the system then proceed to some canned oft repeated set of gameplay
Foundry State Exploration
1. fly to a point on the map, e.g. Delta Velonis
2. presented with a list of missions to choose from
3. once selected you are thrown immediately into a story that could be ANYTHING
notice how the first two steps are EXACTLY THE SAME. Fly to a point and make a choice to interact. in this comparison you are giving up the action of flying around looking for missions to immediately selecting a mission and doing your flying around and exploring IN ONE LESS STEP.
There was a poster in this thread that wrote an extension explanation of how he role plays with the exploration clusters. I was taken aback by how much imagination he needed to expend to make what he was obviously describing as a lackluster game mechanic into something he could enjoy.
Why waste energy, play a foundry mission and let the authors do the imagination for you.
EDIT: Actually, I'm stopping my argument. not because it's pointless, but because I just realized all the counter arguments are doing is giving authors ideas for their next mission. An empty space map in the foundry is just as big as an "exploration cluster". If you like flying around looking for mystery in unknown space that is easily created.
Careful now there, Rekurzion,
Step 2. will probably be Open mission journal and somehow try to find a Foundry mission that starts at this door. I've seen no indications that the clusters will present something to players, as far as what Foundry missions are there. So people will probably have to fight tooth and nail with the UI.
I hope that isn't the case though. Basically, somebody is going to have to know that if you search "title" for "Delta Volanis," you get a list of missions with Delta Volanis in the mission description. And even then, it might only show 50 results.
This stuff is a problem that needs to be addressed by devs. I'm not too sure that they are aware of it.
NO! (You win the award for creating the biggest oxymoron ever btw.)
A dice roll is inherently unpredictable, that's why we use them when a random outcome is called for. You wouldn't say a coin is predictable because it only has two sides. It's only got two possible outcomes, but when you toss the coin you don't know what you're going to get.
A foundry mission is the exact antithesis of exploration.
Maybe this will help you understanding why people don't consider this exploration. If you run a foundry mission a hundred times, it will be identical each time. It's the perfect antithesis of exploration. It can't even have branching dialog.
Conversely, the exploration clusters, you don't know what combination of things you're going to get. It may be limited like a coin, but you don't know if it's going to be heads or tails until you flip it. It would be great if there were more diversity in the missions, but there's no need to kill what tiny bit of diversity there is.
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. We have tons of branching dialogue. We can even fake branching objectives. We can do things like trigger explosions or enemy mobs, given a player's choice in a dialogue. We can set explosions to timers of sorts. We can even have alternate endings. It is not as linear as you think it is. It is far more powerful than anything done in a cluster mission.
Also, what I meant by the die is that you will know for certain that it will be 1 of something, depending on how many sides the die has. With foundry, you literally have no idea, most of the time, what will happen or what it's really about at all.
And we don't really expect you to play the mission more than once, unless you want to see different outcomes. Go play a different author's mission if you're done with mine. Go explore what else is out there in that great unknown.
You're right, I mean branching objectives, not dialog - like going to different maps or having different things spawn based on the dialog choices or actions in the map.
I think the main issue is that some of us see exploration in two separate ways, and others (I think you're in this camp) view them as the same thing.
I would say it's not simply being unaware or not knowing what's going to happen that provides exploration. It's the fact that it's not completely scripted. That this particular time I'm doing something will be personal.
I'll try to give you an example: Mass Effect (substitute any suitable modern RPG on rails) - I would not say is exploration. I don't know what's going to happen before I play it, but I'm not exploring. Dialog choice can impact the flow of the narrative. Actions can impact the flow of the narrative. But it's essentially a predetermined story with some branches. It's a narrative - there's an implied story being told. The key is there's a narrative, some other person is driving the fiction, telling the story.
Exploration is the opposite. I would say games like FTL, NetHack, etc offer exploration. There's a set up giving motivation, there's a goal, but what happens in between is essentially random. The encounters are random, the enemies are random. What you find is random. The Exploration Clusters offer this in a fashion. "Go see what's out there." Yes, you're going to get one of a handful of missions, with some random aliens and some slightly different planetary graphics. It's not much, but it's something. Put that in front of someone with imagination and they have an experience - a somewhat unique one. And the experience is their own. It was generated for them, it was personal.
It would be great if there was more variety, but what's there is a beginning that should be expanded not axed.
OK, this is by far the clearest explanation offered so far in this thread. I think that I understand. But, with Foundry, you have no idea what is going to happen, what mobs I'll use, what locations will occur, etc. etc. And it's all just as scripted as it would be if a machine randomly scripted it with different variables, just for you.
We don't expect you to play it twice. So, from your point of view, isn't that random and personal? I mean, it's not like you have a choice when the blender writes an instance for you. You have to fight who the blender makes you fight in that instance.
But, with a long list of Foundry missions that are each unique, you don't really know what you're going to experience, except that it will be different from the last experience in that cluster. Because it's a different mission.
Also, we can do this with Foundry:
I understand. In fact I've done it in some foundry missions I've built. Mostly to spawn helper ships in space missions based on interaction with an object. But the point is that this branching dialog doesn't meet the definition of exploration I put forward. Assuming it's capable of creating something on the level of Mass Effect level interactions, that's not still not exploration.
So just touching back one what I said in my last post - simply not knowing what's going to happen doesn't meet the criteria for exploration. When I watch a movie the first time, I have no idea what's going to happen. I'm not exploring, I'm being told a story.
It was kind of a short lived thing, but there some "choose your own adventure" style DVDs and VHS tapes. But again, even these are choosing
So there's the rub. Exploration missions are something you could play twice and have a different experience. Or a dozen times, or a hundred times. Eventually you'll get an idea of the limits of the system, but the experience will be slightly different each time. Again, more variety would be welcome.
It's just not a substitute. They're not the same thing. It would be like taking out the Foundry and saying, well there's PVE queues, go play them - what happens will be based on your team! You can RP a story! You wouldn't think that was a good idea would you?
And I want to be clear, this isn't a competition between the Foundry and Exploration Clusters. They're different things and they meet the needs of different playstyles. A Foundry mission (or a lot of them) aren't a good substitute. It should be clear by the fact the Foundry is already in game as an option and you have people saying they would like to keep clusters. That on it's face should be sufficient to indicate one is not an effective replacement for the other.
"Second star to the right, and straight on till the morning"
"Boldly go where no one has gone before"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrizm2gnQBo
I think Star Trek Online lost it.
Funny, I think newer games going capture the sense of Star Trek better then Star Trek Online this coming year and next.
No Mans Sky (Next Generation Take On It)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLtmEjqzg7M
Eve Online (Deep Space Nine Take On It)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFTUazuGdTw
Honorable mentions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvIZUrB92fI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYDmq1TeDFs
So, I probably will get the Playstation 4 soon.
But if you're an explorer, you shouldn't be visiting the same place over and over again expecting a different experience. I don't understand the distinction here. Go explore strange new worlds, not the the same world on auto-repeat where the people are suddenly Vegans instead of hot dog lovers like the last time you vacationed there. That's not exploration. That's more like the definition of insanity, you know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
I also don't understand what that second paragraph is trying to say.
You might like this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrizm2gnQBo
If they revamped the Genesis engine, and put the exploration clusters between certain sectors. It would have been nice. This video would be a good example of possiblities.
The idea is that it's not the same place over and over. The conceit is that it's a different place that you're discovering. I understand STO's implementation is limited.
Your comparison to insanity is misguided. We understand how the system functions AND WE LIKE IT. We want it to be more than it is, but we'd prefer not lose what we have.
It's saying simply that the Foundry is not an acceptable substitute for Exploration Clusters. They're not the same thing, they're not what people who do clusters want. Foundry missions are already in game and if someone preferred them they would already be dong them instead of Clusters. Conversely there are people who find Clusters fun and prefer those.
Genesis does not create missions in real time. Genesis isn't even a part of the game. Genesis is a dev tool that they used to create a few thousand missions.
My character Tsin'xing
Keeping in mind that the only difference between that Exploration mission and an STF is the slider bar you can fill out in the Reputation box after.
And the only difference between that exploration mission and Tau Dewa is you get to click your reward choice for Tau Dewa after doing one of the dailies, but have to do three explorations to get the reward from the wrapper.
Oh and the exploration missions have variety. The Daily is the same exact mission. Every single time.
The Breen keep falling for the same sensor trick. YEARS later.
That's immersive story focused gameplay, lemme tell ya!
I'm not exploring the same place over and over again. I'm exploring uncharted parts of the B'Tran Cluster that I've never been to before. Planet XYZ12345 is different from where I was yesterday, Planet ABC0987. Different sky, different columns, different people (Crimto instead of Starlians).
But that Borg STF and that Voth Battlezone look suspiciously familiar. Like completely redundant.
But, you're still delivering the same 10 Shield Generators, or still picking up the same five probe pieces, or still shooting the five alien mobs to death.
Gee, how did all of that get there, too?
Aiding a new planet I've just discovered with the same standard set of starfleet provisions is really part of the routine of exploration and being in starfleet.
It's still a new planet I haven't aided before.
But when I visit the P'Jemm monastery, it's the exact same Undine who's once again impersonating the exact same ambassador.
Which content is the shallower content? Which of these is the low quality mission? Which has the higher standards of development?
They both seem pretty meh overall to me. I can just use my imagination more with the exploration system and pretend better and have more fun personally.
If they were removed, then the cluster missions would only rely on their low quality although random (which is refreshing) content. And all the content in the Cluster Missions was not just about KILLING EVERYTHING! So there was some real Exploration. . .
But that limited exploration and other limited cluster missions would need to be Improved, and that takes imagination and time. . . Time which Cryptic could use to make a new ship for Zen, or a new Lock Box for Zen, or a new area for us to need better equipment for Zen. . . and on and on.
So compared to making Zen money, Revamping the Exploration system which would not make them Any Zen money is a Extremely Low Priority.
Although it is the most authentic Star Trek thing they could do (in my opinion)
So they continue to turn Star Trek into Battlestar Galactica=WAR, or Star Wars=WAR, or just Plain WAR. . . Because there is money to be made in it. While us true Star Trek explorers, desire exploration missions that surprise us and keep doing so. Where we can learn about new places, peoples and cultures and see wondrous sights never before seen. . .
Not just a well voice acted episode every once in a while. Have you noticed that the first 3 to 4 Episodes are 5 missions long, then the Worf voice acted episodes were only 3, and now the Tuvok Episode is only 1? (please forgive me if I am not remembering the numbers Exactly right, it is the idea I am trying to convey to you).
Yes I love those new Episodes! But I have noticed a definite slow down in the creation of this new content, ever since Cryptic has split their time between STO and Neverwinter. Haven't you?
We are losing more than just Cluster exploration missions, we are losing the Doff Chain missions where you could get blue and purple doffs at the end of them and redo them over and over. . .
We are losing first contact missions. Losing diplomatic missions. Losing Lots of Doff missions as other folks have already pointed out as they are playing with Version 9.5 on Tribble. We are also loosing 1440 dilithium a day.
I am not trying to be mean, I am just voicing the opinion that Starfleet was suppose to be a Peace Keeping force, that is now fighting on more fronts than ever in any of the series. . . Lets see we are fighting the Undine, the Voth, the Tal'Shiar, the Tholians, and the Borg, and still some Klingons. . . I believe that is more than many of the series put together.
So when some of you say Good they are getting rid of the Cluster Missions, . . . Realize that although your right they were not that good, . . . They Were One of the ONLY Random things in the game. . .
My last thought is this, If indeed Cryptic wants to pass the torch to the Really Hard working Foundry Authors, shouldn't they get some incentive, and more importantly, Shouldn't those authors get the same "Quality" tools for exploration missions, that Cryptic has been using to make their own "Quality" missions? So that way the "Quality" can be improved using the EXACT same Tools?
I have helped make missions using the Foundry and the tools in the Foundry are Nothing Close to the "Quality" tools that Cryptic has at their disposal. So Do they really want a "Increase in Quality across the Game or don't they? Because they need to release those tools to the Foundry Authors to really accomplish that goal. Lets see what they do, shall we?
Thanks for your time!
Yes, the exploration in that game is what exploration in this game should have been.
So they butcher the cornerstone of Star Trek, exploration, in favour of what? Nothing.
They remove STFs so why not remove all those that doesn't get played enough. They might as well remove PvP due to the small number of players actually playing it.
No seriously, removing content is BAD Cryptic. Looking back on all the other times you have done that and the repercussions it had on the community, I would have thought that you had learned that it isn't a smart thing to do.
Now, if you decided to replace the exploration with a new system that is more like "No Man's Sky" then people would probably be ecstatic. Or if you simply improved the current one with more mission parameters and add Foundry doors to the map. That would start a truly random Foundry mission. That would be exploring the unknown.
For the Foundry to carry all the weight of exploration is BAR as it still is lacking huge amount or resources and functionality to be a good tool to make missions with. I'm talking about functionality and resources available in game already from mission that Cryptic have made. Like I don't know, NPCs that can switch loyalty during a mission and attack you or join your group for the rest of the mission. Or using a transporter to beam to different locations on the same map resource. Making it possible to test the routing and NPC critter spawning without having to launch the mission first. The option to make single player mission as well as 5 player missions. Making requirements for space suits or any other form of clothing category the default one when on a map. Making hostile environments that require suits to survive. Making maps that can take on up to 20 players or why not 50 players at the same time. Just to mention a few things that needs to improve before the Foundry even can start to fill the gap of the deleted exploration content.
It also need a better alien generator then the one we have now. Why can't we make aliens like the ones from the planet Cheron. Or avian species or aquatic species or canine species?
No removing the exploration maps and the diplomatic first contact missions is a disgrace.
For every change Cryptic presents these days I get less and less interested in playing this game. And I've stuck by this game since closed beta and poured money in to Cryptic's pockets. No I'm beginning to ask myself if it is really worth it. Especially when I read about games like "No Man's Sky" being developed.
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Well you lose half the chances you had to get the mission to spawn with the change. But hey, it's all good!
I hope they pull the same tactic with some other piece of super boring, repetitive, extremely redundant content that's in the game that you participate in. Like STFs.
My character Tsin'xing