Like I keep saying, it's not the missions by themselves. Of course I would like better missions in the clusters; I've been asking for them for years, but they are only half the point.
Let me try this another way. Take your standard hack and slash fantasy MMORPG. Who is the explorer? The person who sets off into the wilderness just to see what they find, or the person who picks 'mysterious lost citadel' off the PvE instanced dungeon list?
That's the problem here. I am an explorer (or so the Bartle Test keeps telling me), I want to explore. I don't explore without heading off into the unknown. Just being told that I am doing that by the script defeats the point. I have to do it myself.
You ARE doing it yourself. Lets compare the process shall we...
Current State Exploration
1. fly to the edge of a map, e.g. Delta Velonis
2. presented with a prompt to enter the territory
3. once inside you fly around until you locate an "Explore Unknown System" popup
4. enter the system then proceed to some canned oft repeated set of gameplay
Foundry State Exploration
1. fly to a point on the map, e.g. Delta Velonis
2. presented with a list of missions to choose from
3. once selected you are thrown immediately into a story that could be ANYTHING
notice how the first two steps are EXACTLY THE SAME. Fly to a point and make a choice to interact. in this comparison you are giving up the action of flying around looking for missions to immediately selecting a mission and doing your flying around and exploring IN ONE LESS STEP.
There was a poster in this thread that wrote an extension explanation of how he role plays with the exploration clusters. I was taken aback by how much imagination he needed to expend to make what he was obviously describing as a lackluster game mechanic into something he could enjoy.
Why waste energy, play a foundry mission and let the authors do the imagination for you.
EDIT: Actually, I'm stopping my argument. not because it's pointless, but because I just realized all the counter arguments are doing is giving authors ideas for their next mission. An empty space map in the foundry is just as big as an "exploration cluster". If you like flying around looking for mystery in unknown space that is easily created.
Foundry State Exploration
1. fly to a point on the map, e.g. Delta Velonis
2. presented with a list of missions to choose from
3. once selected you are thrown immediately into a story that could be ANYTHING
Careful now there, Rekurzion,
Step 2. will probably be Open mission journal and somehow try to find a Foundry mission that starts at this door. I've seen no indications that the clusters will present something to players, as far as what Foundry missions are there. So people will probably have to fight tooth and nail with the UI.
I hope that isn't the case though. Basically, somebody is going to have to know that if you search "title" for "Delta Volanis," you get a list of missions with Delta Volanis in the mission description. And even then, it might only show 50 results.
This stuff is a problem that needs to be addressed by devs. I'm not too sure that they are aware of it.
NO! (You win the award for creating the biggest oxymoron ever btw.)
A dice roll is inherently unpredictable, that's why we use them when a random outcome is called for. You wouldn't say a coin is predictable because it only has two sides. It's only got two possible outcomes, but when you toss the coin you don't know what you're going to get.
A foundry mission is the exact antithesis of exploration.
But you can head off to the unknown in a Foundry mission
Maybe this will help you understanding why people don't consider this exploration. If you run a foundry mission a hundred times, it will be identical each time. It's the perfect antithesis of exploration. It can't even have branching dialog.
Conversely, the exploration clusters, you don't know what combination of things you're going to get. It may be limited like a coin, but you don't know if it's going to be heads or tails until you flip it. It would be great if there were more diversity in the missions, but there's no need to kill what tiny bit of diversity there is.
If you run a foundry mission a hundred times, it will be identical each time. It's the perfect antithesis of exploration. It can't even have branching dialog.
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. We have tons of branching dialogue. We can even fake branching objectives. We can do things like trigger explosions or enemy mobs, given a player's choice in a dialogue. We can set explosions to timers of sorts. We can even have alternate endings. It is not as linear as you think it is. It is far more powerful than anything done in a cluster mission.
Also, what I meant by the die is that you will know for certain that it will be 1 of something, depending on how many sides the die has. With foundry, you literally have no idea, most of the time, what will happen or what it's really about at all.
And we don't really expect you to play the mission more than once, unless you want to see different outcomes. Go play a different author's mission if you're done with mine. Go explore what else is out there in that great unknown.
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. We have tons of branching dialogue. We can even fake branching objectives. We can do things like trigger explosions or enemy mobs, given a player's choice in a dialogue. We can set explosions to timers of sorts. We can even have alternate endings. It is not as linear as you think it is. It is far more powerful than anything done in a cluster mission.
You're right, I mean branching objectives, not dialog - like going to different maps or having different things spawn based on the dialog choices or actions in the map.
Also, what I meant by the die is that you will know for certain that it will be 1 of something, depending on how many sides the die has. With foundry, you literally have no idea, most of the time, what will happen or what it's really about at all.
I think the main issue is that some of us see exploration in two separate ways, and others (I think you're in this camp) view them as the same thing.
I would say it's not simply being unaware or not knowing what's going to happen that provides exploration. It's the fact that it's not completely scripted. That this particular time I'm doing something will be personal.
I'll try to give you an example: Mass Effect (substitute any suitable modern RPG on rails) - I would not say is exploration. I don't know what's going to happen before I play it, but I'm not exploring. Dialog choice can impact the flow of the narrative. Actions can impact the flow of the narrative. But it's essentially a predetermined story with some branches. It's a narrative - there's an implied story being told. The key is there's a narrative, some other person is driving the fiction, telling the story.
Exploration is the opposite. I would say games like FTL, NetHack, etc offer exploration. There's a set up giving motivation, there's a goal, but what happens in between is essentially random. The encounters are random, the enemies are random. What you find is random. The Exploration Clusters offer this in a fashion. "Go see what's out there." Yes, you're going to get one of a handful of missions, with some random aliens and some slightly different planetary graphics. It's not much, but it's something. Put that in front of someone with imagination and they have an experience - a somewhat unique one. And the experience is their own. It was generated for them, it was personal.
It would be great if there was more variety, but what's there is a beginning that should be expanded not axed.
You're right, I mean branching objectives, not dialog - like going to different maps or having different things spawn based on the dialog choices or actions in the map.
I think the main issue is that some of us see exploration in two separate ways, and others (I think you're in this camp) view them as the same thing.
I would say it's not simply being unaware or not knowing what's going to happen that provides exploration. It's the fact that it's not completely scripted. That this particular time I'm doing something will be personal.
I'll try to give you an example: Mass Effect (substitute any suitable modern RPG on rails) - I would not say is exploration. I don't know what's going to happen before I play it, but I'm not exploring. Dialog choice can impact the flow of the narrative. Actions can impact the flow of the narrative. But it's essentially a predetermined story with some branches. It's a narrative - there's an implied story being told. The key is there's a narrative, some other person is driving the fiction, telling the story.
Exploration is the opposite. I would say games like FTL, NetHack, etc offer exploration. There's a set up giving motivation, there's a goal, but what happens in between is essentially random. The encounters are random, the enemies are random. What you find is random. The Exploration Clusters offer this in a fashion. "Go see what's out there." Yes, you're going to get one of a handful of missions, with some random aliens and some slightly different planetary graphics. It's not much, but it's something. Put that in front of someone with imagination and they have an experience - a somewhat unique one. And the experience is their own. It was generated for them, it was personal.
It would be great if there was more variety, but what's there is a beginning that should be expanded not axed.
OK, this is by far the clearest explanation offered so far in this thread. I think that I understand. But, with Foundry, you have no idea what is going to happen, what mobs I'll use, what locations will occur, etc. etc. And it's all just as scripted as it would be if a machine randomly scripted it with different variables, just for you.
We don't expect you to play it twice. So, from your point of view, isn't that random and personal? I mean, it's not like you have a choice when the blender writes an instance for you. You have to fight who the blender makes you fight in that instance.
But, with a long list of Foundry missions that are each unique, you don't really know what you're going to experience, except that it will be different from the last experience in that cluster. Because it's a different mission.
Also, we can do this with Foundry:
having different things spawn based on the dialog choices or actions in the map.
I understand. In fact I've done it in some foundry missions I've built. Mostly to spawn helper ships in space missions based on interaction with an object. But the point is that this branching dialog doesn't meet the definition of exploration I put forward. Assuming it's capable of creating something on the level of Mass Effect level interactions, that's not still not exploration.
OK, this is by far the clearest explanation offered so far in this thread. I think that I understand. But, with Foundry, you have no idea what is going to happen, what mobs I'll use, what locations will occur, etc. etc. And it's all just as scripted as it would be if a machine randomly scripted it with different variables.
So just touching back one what I said in my last post - simply not knowing what's going to happen doesn't meet the criteria for exploration. When I watch a movie the first time, I have no idea what's going to happen. I'm not exploring, I'm being told a story.
It was kind of a short lived thing, but there some "choose your own adventure" style DVDs and VHS tapes. But again, even these are choosing
We don't expect you to play it twice. So, from your point of view, isn't that random? I mean, it's not like you have a choice when the blender writes an instance for you. You have to fight who the blender makes you fight in that instance.
So there's the rub. Exploration missions are something you could play twice and have a different experience. Or a dozen times, or a hundred times. Eventually you'll get an idea of the limits of the system, but the experience will be slightly different each time. Again, more variety would be welcome.
But, with a long list of Foundry missions that are each unique, you don't really know what you're going to experience, except that it will be different from the last experience in that cluster. Because it's a different mission.
It's just not a substitute. They're not the same thing. It would be like taking out the Foundry and saying, well there's PVE queues, go play them - what happens will be based on your team! You can RP a story! You wouldn't think that was a good idea would you?
And I want to be clear, this isn't a competition between the Foundry and Exploration Clusters. They're different things and they meet the needs of different playstyles. A Foundry mission (or a lot of them) aren't a good substitute. It should be clear by the fact the Foundry is already in game as an option and you have people saying they would like to keep clusters. That on it's face should be sufficient to indicate one is not an effective replacement for the other.
So there's the rub. Exploration missions are something you could play twice and have a different experience. Or a dozen times, or a hundred times. Eventually you'll get an idea of the limits of the system, but the experience will be slightly different each time. Again, more variety would be welcome.
It's just not a substitute. They're not the same thing. It would be like taking out the Foundry and saying, well there's PVE queues, go play them - what happens will be based on your team! You can RP a story! You wouldn't think that was a good idea would you?
But if you're an explorer, you shouldn't be visiting the same place over and over again expecting a different experience. I don't understand the distinction here. Go explore strange new worlds, not the the same world on auto-repeat where the people are suddenly Vegans instead of hot dog lovers like the last time you vacationed there. That's not exploration. That's more like the definition of insanity, you know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
I also don't understand what that second paragraph is trying to say.
But if you're an explorer, you shouldn't be visiting the same place over and over again expecting a different experience. I don't understand the distinction here. Go explore strange new worlds, not the the same world on auto-repeat where the people are suddenly Vegans instead of hot dog lovers like the last time you vacationed there. That's not exploration. That's more like the definition of insanity, you know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
I also don't understand what that second paragraph is trying to say.
If they revamped the Genesis engine, and put the exploration clusters between certain sectors. It would have been nice. This video would be a good example of possiblities.
But if you're an explorer, you shouldn't be visiting the same place over and over again expecting a different experience. I don't understand the distinction here.
Go explore strange new worlds, not the the same world on auto-repeat where the people are suddenly Vegans instead of hot dog lovers like the last time you vacationed there. That's not exploration. That's more like the definition of insanity, you know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
The idea is that it's not the same place over and over. The conceit is that it's a different place that you're discovering. I understand STO's implementation is limited.
Your comparison to insanity is misguided. We understand how the system functions AND WE LIKE IT. We want it to be more than it is, but we'd prefer not lose what we have.
I also don't understand what that second paragraph is trying to say.
It's saying simply that the Foundry is not an acceptable substitute for Exploration Clusters. They're not the same thing, they're not what people who do clusters want. Foundry missions are already in game and if someone preferred them they would already be dong them instead of Clusters. Conversely there are people who find Clusters fun and prefer those.
If they revamped the Genesis engine, and put the exploration clusters between certain sectors. It would have been nice. This video would be a good example of possiblities.
You seem to be using a mistaken concept of what Genesis is.
Genesis does not create missions in real time. Genesis isn't even a part of the game. Genesis is a dev tool that they used to create a few thousand missions.
So it's the box where you fly around and press f? That's your version of rewarding exploration? Every one of those boxes looks pretty identical.
Keeping in mind that the only difference between that Exploration mission and an STF is the slider bar you can fill out in the Reputation box after.
And the only difference between that exploration mission and Tau Dewa is you get to click your reward choice for Tau Dewa after doing one of the dailies, but have to do three explorations to get the reward from the wrapper.
Oh and the exploration missions have variety. The Daily is the same exact mission. Every single time.
The Breen keep falling for the same sensor trick. YEARS later.
That's immersive story focused gameplay, lemme tell ya!
But if you're an explorer, you shouldn't be visiting the same place over and over again expecting a different experience. I don't understand the distinction here. Go explore strange new worlds, not the the same world on auto-repeat where the people are suddenly Vegans instead of hot dog lovers like the last time you vacationed there. That's not exploration. That's more like the definition of insanity, you know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
I also don't understand what that second paragraph is trying to say.
I'm not exploring the same place over and over again. I'm exploring uncharted parts of the B'Tran Cluster that I've never been to before. Planet XYZ12345 is different from where I was yesterday, Planet ABC0987. Different sky, different columns, different people (Crimto instead of Starlians).
But that Borg STF and that Voth Battlezone look suspiciously familiar. Like completely redundant.
I'm not exploring the same place over and over again. I'm exploring uncharted parts of the B'Tran Cluster that I've never been to before. Planet XYZ12345 is different from where I was yesterday, Planet ABC0987. Different sky, different columns, different people (Crimto instead of Starlians).
But that Borg STF and that Voth Battlezone look suspiciously familiar. Like completely redundant.
But, you're still delivering the same 10 Shield Generators, or still picking up the same five probe pieces, or still shooting the five alien mobs to death.
But, you're still delivering the same 10 Shield Generators, or still picking up the same five probe pieces, or still shooting the five alien mobs to death.
Aiding a new planet I've just discovered with the same standard set of starfleet provisions is really part of the routine of exploration and being in starfleet.
It's still a new planet I haven't aided before.
But when I visit the P'Jemm monastery, it's the exact same Undine who's once again impersonating the exact same ambassador.
Which content is the shallower content? Which of these is the low quality mission? Which has the higher standards of development?
They both seem pretty meh overall to me. I can just use my imagination more with the exploration system and pretend better and have more fun personally.
The New Crafting system, removes the need for particle traces, so the cluster mission scanning points are no longer needed. . .
If they were removed, then the cluster missions would only rely on their low quality although random (which is refreshing) content. And all the content in the Cluster Missions was not just about KILLING EVERYTHING! So there was some real Exploration. . .
But that limited exploration and other limited cluster missions would need to be Improved, and that takes imagination and time. . . Time which Cryptic could use to make a new ship for Zen, or a new Lock Box for Zen, or a new area for us to need better equipment for Zen. . . and on and on.
So compared to making Zen money, Revamping the Exploration system which would not make them Any Zen money is a Extremely Low Priority.
Although it is the most authentic Star Trek thing they could do (in my opinion)
So they continue to turn Star Trek into Battlestar Galactica=WAR, or Star Wars=WAR, or just Plain WAR. . . Because there is money to be made in it. While us true Star Trek explorers, desire exploration missions that surprise us and keep doing so. Where we can learn about new places, peoples and cultures and see wondrous sights never before seen. . .
Not just a well voice acted episode every once in a while. Have you noticed that the first 3 to 4 Episodes are 5 missions long, then the Worf voice acted episodes were only 3, and now the Tuvok Episode is only 1? (please forgive me if I am not remembering the numbers Exactly right, it is the idea I am trying to convey to you).
Yes I love those new Episodes! But I have noticed a definite slow down in the creation of this new content, ever since Cryptic has split their time between STO and Neverwinter. Haven't you?
We are losing more than just Cluster exploration missions, we are losing the Doff Chain missions where you could get blue and purple doffs at the end of them and redo them over and over. . .
We are losing first contact missions. Losing diplomatic missions. Losing Lots of Doff missions as other folks have already pointed out as they are playing with Version 9.5 on Tribble. We are also loosing 1440 dilithium a day.
I am not trying to be mean, I am just voicing the opinion that Starfleet was suppose to be a Peace Keeping force, that is now fighting on more fronts than ever in any of the series. . . Lets see we are fighting the Undine, the Voth, the Tal'Shiar, the Tholians, and the Borg, and still some Klingons. . . I believe that is more than many of the series put together.
So when some of you say Good they are getting rid of the Cluster Missions, . . . Realize that although your right they were not that good, . . . They Were One of the ONLY Random things in the game. . .
My last thought is this, If indeed Cryptic wants to pass the torch to the Really Hard working Foundry Authors, shouldn't they get some incentive, and more importantly, Shouldn't those authors get the same "Quality" tools for exploration missions, that Cryptic has been using to make their own "Quality" missions? So that way the "Quality" can be improved using the EXACT same Tools?
I have helped make missions using the Foundry and the tools in the Foundry are Nothing Close to the "Quality" tools that Cryptic has at their disposal. So Do they really want a "Increase in Quality across the Game or don't they? Because they need to release those tools to the Foundry Authors to really accomplish that goal. Lets see what they do, shall we?
I am against removing exploration zones from the game. I'm not fretting that much though. I'm just biding my time until "No Man's Sky" comes out.
Yes, the exploration in that game is what exploration in this game should have been.
So they butcher the cornerstone of Star Trek, exploration, in favour of what? Nothing.
They remove STFs so why not remove all those that doesn't get played enough. They might as well remove PvP due to the small number of players actually playing it.
No seriously, removing content is BAD Cryptic. Looking back on all the other times you have done that and the repercussions it had on the community, I would have thought that you had learned that it isn't a smart thing to do.
Now, if you decided to replace the exploration with a new system that is more like "No Man's Sky" then people would probably be ecstatic. Or if you simply improved the current one with more mission parameters and add Foundry doors to the map. That would start a truly random Foundry mission. That would be exploring the unknown.
For the Foundry to carry all the weight of exploration is BAR as it still is lacking huge amount or resources and functionality to be a good tool to make missions with. I'm talking about functionality and resources available in game already from mission that Cryptic have made. Like I don't know, NPCs that can switch loyalty during a mission and attack you or join your group for the rest of the mission. Or using a transporter to beam to different locations on the same map resource. Making it possible to test the routing and NPC critter spawning without having to launch the mission first. The option to make single player mission as well as 5 player missions. Making requirements for space suits or any other form of clothing category the default one when on a map. Making hostile environments that require suits to survive. Making maps that can take on up to 20 players or why not 50 players at the same time. Just to mention a few things that needs to improve before the Foundry even can start to fill the gap of the deleted exploration content.
It also need a better alien generator then the one we have now. Why can't we make aliens like the ones from the planet Cheron. Or avian species or aquatic species or canine species?
No removing the exploration maps and the diplomatic first contact missions is a disgrace.
For every change Cryptic presents these days I get less and less interested in playing this game. And I've stuck by this game since closed beta and poured money in to Cryptic's pockets. No I'm beginning to ask myself if it is really worth it. Especially when I read about games like "No Man's Sky" being developed.
Frankly, the exploration clusters, to me, were as they described them: redundant and they got boring after a while. I stopped doing anything with them months ago, with the exception of DOFF missions. And, the ironic thing, is that to do the DOFF missions, I would warp to the cluster, and just sit there where I showed up, load up the DOFF missions, and leave again - EXACTLY what I figure I'll be doing with the "anchor point" or whatever they put in there to facilitate said missions. So, from my own perspective, it really won't change much at all, except now I can get to the DOFF missions one warp sooner, so all is good!
Frankly, the exploration clusters, to me, were as they described them: redundant and they got boring after a while. I stopped doing anything with them months ago, with the exception of DOFF missions. And, the ironic thing, is that to do the DOFF missions, I would warp to the cluster, and just sit there where I showed up, load up the DOFF missions, and leave again - EXACTLY what I figure I'll be doing with the "anchor point" or whatever they put in there to facilitate said missions. So, from my own perspective, it really won't change much at all, except now I can get to the DOFF missions one warp sooner, so all is good!
Well you lose half the chances you had to get the mission to spawn with the change. But hey, it's all good!
I hope they pull the same tactic with some other piece of super boring, repetitive, extremely redundant content that's in the game that you participate in. Like STFs.
I'm not exploring the same place over and over again. I'm exploring uncharted parts of the B'Tran Cluster that I've never been to before. Planet XYZ12345 is different from where I was yesterday, Planet ABC0987. Different sky, different columns, different people (Crimto instead of Starlians).
you should write down the names of all the places you go to. It might surprise you. :P
It's disappointing for reasons that so many people have already stated: It was a different way to play the game that wasn't centered on the equally redundant and distressingly militant story arcs, episodes and queues. It had some randomness and a totally different feel of hopeful exploration and discovery.
By removing this, it seems that you're essentially removing from STO the unique thematic core of the IP. The thing that makes it different from all other sci-fi - an optimistic view of humanity's future.
Doing this without even attempting to improve or enhance the current system seems...questionable.
An alternative approach would be to improve the system somehow. A couple of suggestions have been made:
1) Improve the system in-house
ADD more random missions and more random aliens. How about a dozen missions in each category that all seem to start the same, but take different directions as each progresses? Maybe some lead into story arcs or first contacts? How about some random alien and critter generation? Environmental threats?
2) Open it up to the Foundry
Not a bad plan. As others have mentioned, it would be better if the Foundry were less limited. Not only mission tools, but also things like alien costumes, critters, environmental issues and (why was this not obvious from day 1?) alien ship costumes.
3) Why not leave it in place?
The devs say it's useless and "not up to standards". That's a fine opinion, but maybe not one that is shared by the community that actually, you know, plays the game. It's also not the only useless aspect of the game...so why is this one system getting singled out for redaction? Why not leave the clusters in place until such time as you can develop a better, more satisfactory system?
When I play STO, I like to imagine the Star Trek universe going on somewhere in the background. NOT the Star Trek universe the dev's imagine - with respect and apologies, they're just fans with a bigger soap box than the rest of us. No, I mean the Star Trek I've seen on screen.
A peace-seeking, humanitarian Star Trek.
The Exploration Clusters best represent that aspect of Star Trek in STO. Removing the Clusters, without any effort to enhance or replace them, removes that spirit from STO and in my opinion, for whatever that's worth, would be...ill-advised.
I started playing this game when you had to buy the software and it required a subscription. It 's biggest and most glaring fault was in my opinion the size of the universe and exploration. I hope that the developers will indeed fix it and add other things. I don't know what the designers are planning, but what is the present universe would seem to me would be a great starter area. I would recommend the developers use the "Worm Hole" in the DS9 sector as a gateway to area similar in size to "EVE's" universe.
My suggestion is you would go thru the worm hole and be presented with a totally un-explored area, each solar system you would be able to map out by exploring the planets, moons, asteroid belts, and some could have other worm holes. Some of these planets would contain various life forms with the more rare ones containing intelligent life or civilizations. The area would be a cross between "EVE" and "Earth and Beyond". Some systems could contain Ruins and Relics. I would be also be nice to include a more "Civilian Side" of game play were one could be a Trader. I think the distance between worlds is a too close, I would like to see space travel more like "EVE" in the way distance, time and flight manner. But maintain the set course and off you go. This would bring more meaning to the type of ship I possess in regards to engine speed (Warp Capability), Trans-Warp Drive and those other purchasable speed/travel perks. I think such a long range endeavor would be a positive for the players and the company. It would bring more meaning to becoming a Admiral and even Player Fleets. Maybe we could start a topic regarding ideas in the design of a "Exploration" area? Heck if the developers needed more funds to create such an area I would certainly chip in on top of my subscription.
Ok, so I've sat back from this discussion for a while and I'm quite suprised where it lead. I didn't quite expect to witness this discussion and how mislead some information seems to be. It also took some unexpected turns.
For ex., we have kirksplat who I've never seen post so much in a thread not related to the foundry. Now don't get me wrong kirksplat, I know you're one of the most passionate representatives of the foundry community since like forever.
What I'm actually suprised about is how passionately you're doing the job of the devil's advocate here. Please note that I'm not pointing fingers and it's quite possible that because you're so passionate about the foundry to not have noticed you're doing the devil's advocate job.
What saddens me is that if the current state of the foundry treatment by Cryptic is in such a desparate place, so you're so over the moon for getting some crums thrown at the foundry's direction. I mean seriously - noone is debating the quality of the exploration cluster missions here. I have no doubt for a second that the foundry authors could provide better and more varied missions.
But what Cryptic is doing here is relegating content making to the people who play the game, for their own benefit. They're also doing nothing for the foundry here, but throwing crums. Making foundry doors be availibe? Whoopedy-doo!
Now let me ask you kirksplat, and I'm only pointing you out to ask because you're the most prominent member of the foundry community posting here in this passionate debate (don't want anyone to get the impression I've got sth. against them:o) - can you singlehandedly guarantee the quantity of exploration content provided by the foundry?
Because let's face it - pushing the content that is one of the cumberstones of Star Trek to the foundry is not substainable development. The foundry authors are players of STO as well, they're not obligated for anything. What happens if few days from now Cryptic does something epically craptastic to the foundry, that would make the foundry people rage-quit, hypotheticaly speaking? No exploration in STO?
Again, who can guarantee the amount of exploration related content provided by the foundry. Who can guarantee there'll be a big and ever increasing number of missions? Who'll guarantee me that after a couple of weeks playing exploration related foundry missions I won't run out of new content in that regard?
Then, there is the thing about quality. Frankly, in my eyes, attaching foundry doors to the clusters in their "new" incarnation is Season 9.5 doesn't do anything much. Granted I only played around in the foundry for a while (don't have enough time to really devote myslef), but I'm pretty sure a foundry door is just a place you can select your mission to start from. So currently there is no guarantee of the quality of content with a starting point in a cluster, furthermore there's no guarantee it would be exploration related at all. I can put a starting point to my mission in Delta Volanis that will then take you to ESD after the loading screen and your objective will be to dance on Quinn's desk.
As far as I'm aware, the STO team assigned to the foundry currently numbers 0 people! So there's noone to implement a mechanisc specifically for exploration related foundry missions, there's noone to quality check and approve missions that would be treated as 'exploration' which would start in the clusters, in fact there's noone to do anything. Except put a door there.
See where I'm going with this?
The issue at hand here is that they're removing content. Content that regardless of how subpar might have been, was still the closest thing this game had to an actual exploration. Noone's debating quality. Again, I'm not discussing the potential of the Foundry to create more advanced content than the random generator in it's current form.
What is troublesome here is that the game developer is wahsing their hands from a type of content that is the premise of the entire franchise they own a licence to, and outsource the creation of said profile of content to a completely unsustainable source. A source which they have neglected and mislead since the launch of STO, a source that is still in 'beta', a source that gets nothing but crums once in a blue moon, but a source they obviously have no problem falling back to when it takes their collective posteriors out of trouble.
Now there are people saying that since they're removing this, there surely must be a new exploration system right around the corner. This is nothing more than wishfull thinking. As others have said on multiple ocassions, there's no correspondence from Cryptic that would indicate such a thing. For what we know, there is the same amount of chace that Ex.2 will be about exploration as there is a chance to be just another rep.grind, a Cardassian faction, a Kazon kill-a-rama or sharks with friggin' photon cannons on their heads. What we do know however is that the exploration system currently in place is being nuked, without any relevant replacement and the foundry pointed out as a cover shield for the developer to waltz away from responsibility.
And if they really have an exploration revamp/expansion or whatever planned for Ex.2 and they're letting this sad and depressive ragefest, losing confidence in Crpytic and losing faith in STO going on - then their PR responsible should flat out get fired, or at least demoted and sent to finish sveral PR courses. I work in marketing for quite a while even though it's not the profession I graduated for and I'm telling you - if I ever allow such a thing to happen on my watch, I'll get the boot. It's that simple.
At the end - fact time: the main and probably only reason they're removing the clusters right now is the crafting revamp. They want to nerf the gathering of crafting resources before the new system hits holodeck, so they can prolongue the completion of the new crafting schools. Don't forget, we're in a D'Angelo era here - the first thing I heard the guy say after becomming the EP (again) was that the Dyson rep. was not grindy enough for him.
What bothers me actually is them not having the courage to admit this and face the music, but rather underestimating our intellingence here by providing some BS excuses like the size of the game or players getting lost in 2D square with a single entry/exit point. If this was the case, they'd remove the clusters when the game went F2P and they expected a bunch of new F2P players who'd "get lost" in the clusters.
They've basically killed exploration so they can nerf material gathering for crafting. People already explained why it's very complicated for them to change this stuff within the clusters and leave them be - and Cryptic, as always ofcourse, is taking the lazy way out. They don't care it's making the game feel smaller and sadder. It's very simple actually. Use your brain people, it's in there for a reason.
P.S. Sorry for the wall of text, but I feel that some important stuff hapening to the game needs to be discussed.
What saddens me is that if the current state of the foundry treatment by Cryptic is in such a desparate place, so you're so over the moon for getting some crums thrown at the foundry's direction. I mean seriously - noone is debating the quality of the exploration cluster missions here. I have no doubt for a second that the foundry authors could provide better and more varied missions.
But what Cryptic is doing here is relegating content making to the people who play the game, for their own benefit. They're also doing nothing for the foundry here, but throwing crums. Making foundry doors be availibe? Whoopedy-doo!
Now let me ask you kirksplat, and I'm only pointing you out to ask because you're the most prominent member of the foundry community posting here in this passionate debate (don't want anyone to get the impression I've got sth. against them:o) - can you singlehandedly guarantee the quantity of exploration content provided by the foundry?
Because let's face it - pushing the content that is one of the cumberstones of Star Trek to the foundry is not substainable development. The foundry authors are players of STO as well, they're not obligated for anything. What happens if few days from now Cryptic does something epically craptastic to the foundry, that would make the foundry people rage-quit, hypotheticaly speaking? No exploration in STO?
Again, who can guarantee the amount of exploration related content provided by the foundry. Who can guarantee there'll be a big and ever increasing number of missions? Who'll guarantee me that after a couple of weeks playing exploration related foundry missions I won't run out of new content in that regard?
Then, there is the thing about quality. Frankly, in my eyes, attaching foundry doors to the clusters in their "new" incarnation is Season 9.5 doesn't do anything much. Granted I only played around in the foundry for a while (don't have enough time to really devote myslef), but I'm pretty sure a foundry door is just a place you can select your mission to start from. So currently there is no guarantee of the quality of content with a starting point in a cluster, furthermore there's no guarantee it would be exploration related at all. I can put a starting point to my mission in Delta Volanis that will then take you to ESD after the loading screen and your objective will be to dance on Quinn's desk.
As far as I'm aware, the STO team assigned to the foundry currently numbers 0 people! So there's noone to implement a mechanisc specifically for exploration related foundry missions, there's noone to quality check and approve missions that would be treated as 'exploration' which would start in the clusters, in fact there's noone to do anything. Except put a door there.
See where I'm going with this?
I'm not sure where to start with a response to this post. Look, if you've followed my long history of pretty much raging and flaming the devs, you'll know that I'm not exactly a cheerleader for Cryptic producers. A lot of my motivation and support for the Foundry comes down to the statement: "You call this Star Trek? Really? You call this Star Trek? Here, this is Star Trek. Take notes, please." There are notable exceptions to the dev content, from excellent FEs to the Romulan expansion, etc. But, the vast majority of "content" in this game has been MMO filler, not Star Trek lore of storytelling. You're lucky to get a story-related cutscene from the Dyson sphere stuff.
I have far more faith in the ability of fans to tell stories that capture the essence of Star Trek exploration than I do with metric-driven producers who don't have a problem letting players fly Borg cubes. I have faith in the ability of fans to enrich the lore of this universe, when the overarching story arch of the producers is catered to justify a new lockbox or adventure zone.
Yes, the Foundry has been treated like an ugly and neglected stepchild. Yes, it is pretty insulting that they are spinning the Foundry as lining up with core design principles when 0 people on the STO team have Foundry in their job description. Yes, the history of the Foundry and its beta state is not exactly an encouraging reason for players to even try to make content for this game. Plus, nobody can really find that content, even if they try.
What I can guarantee is based not on any confidence in Cryptic, its commitment to Foundry, or any real belief that they'll do anything besides hook up doors as a convenient justification for removing the clusters. What I will say, based solely on my belief in the power of Star Trek fans, is that we can make exploration better than anything done by a blender, or a reputation bucket, or a rinse and repeat pew pew mission made by the devs. We can make exploration feel like exploration. I promise you that, because I know that most authors simply want to tell engaging stories set in the universe of Star Trek. We aren't giving you reasons to do some repetitive task for a .005 point increase in your flight turn rate or a few new plants on your castle.
We're doing what we can with the only game that we have to work with at the moment. I'm not ready to give up hope on the power and creativity of Star Trek fans, even if I have little faith in the dev team, despite some "skunk work" support by certain devs like Taco or QA support from Cryptic Frost.
This is my analogy of the logic that Cryptic seems to be using, from my perspective, to "improve" STO:
According to Cryptic, they want to remove the Exploration Clusters because the missions are not up to the standards of quality of the other missions of the game. It also takes up too much hard drive space on end-users systems, driving away new players.
Ok, so Cryptic gives you a car (STO as a basic representation of Star Trek canon) with tires shaped like hexagons - it's tires are not perfected, they are a work in progress, but it gets you to where you need to go... roughly. After a while, they design better tires that are octagon shaped. They are not perfect yet but they are rounder.
Each one of the tires are called Episodes, Reputation System, Crafting and Exploration.
The first tire was called Episodes gets replaced with better Episodes (left front) - it's definitely a little smoother ride.
Next to be replaced was Reputation System (the right-front tire,) it's a little over inflated and wears down more due to "grinding" but there are more new ones coming every other month to replace it.
Next one to be replaced is called Crafting (right-rear tire) but Cryptic figures that since the Exploration tire shares the same axle as Crafting, Exploration is not really necessary. Crafting can hold up the back of the car. Exploration was an ugly tire anyways. So the plan is to replace Crafting but remove the wheel for Exploration altogether.
You ask Cryptic why only one wheel in back, car were meant to have 4 wheels and tires?!
Cryptic says this way they don't need to maintain as many tires and as long as you only make left turns or go straight carefully, besides that, new potential car owners say that the car is too heavy, so without the extra wheel and tire, the car is lighter.
Yes, the car was meant to do right turns too but it's not really necessary, so Cryptic says, "Trust us and carry on."
At this point, some people say the car is better without that fourth wheel, that tire is REALLY ugly. Other say, even though the tire was ugly, the car worked the way it was meant to.
(They haven't worked out the "bugs" yet to be able to make round tires yet. It's a work in progress...)
NOTE: Excuse me if I got the physics wrong, it should still get the point across. I hope you at least found my analogy entertaining.
Star Trek Battles Channel - Play Star Trek like they did in the series!Avatar: pinterest-com/pin/14003448816884219Are you sure it isn't time for a "colorful metaphor"? --Spock in 'The Voyage Home' SCE ADVISORY NOTICE: Improper Impulse Engine maintenance can result in REAR THRUSTER LEAKAGE. ALWAYS have your work inspected by another qualified officer.
I'm not sure where to start with a response to this post. Look, if you've followed my long history of pretty much raging and flaming the devs, you'll know that I'm not exactly a cheerleader for Cryptic producers. A lot of my motivation and support for the Foundry comes down to the statement: "You call this Star Trek? Really? You call this Star Trek? Here, this is Star Trek. Take notes, please." There are notable exception to the dev content, from excellent FEs to the Romulan expansion,etc. But, the vast majority of "content" in this game has been MMO filler, not Star Trek lore of storytelling. You're lucky to get a story-related cutscene from the Dyson sphere stuff.
Don't get me wrong, I know you're not a Cryptic cheerleader, I tried to make that clear as much as I could.
What I said is that it looks like you're playing the devil's advocate job by encouraging the swapping of the clusters with foundry content (for the right reasons I know), but it comes off as a loud support for the current decsion being made, without firstly doing the following that relates to the second part I'll quote here:
Yes, the Foundry has been treated like an ugly and neglected stepchild. Yes, it is pretty insulting that they are spinning the Foundry as lining up with core design principles when 0 people on the STO team have Foundry in their job description. Yes, the history of the Foundry and its beta state is not exactly an encouraging reason for players to even try to make content for this game. Plus, nobody can really find that content, even if they try.
Basically they're saying that the foundry needs to do this work for them, without providing the foundry authors even the basic necessary stuff to make it happen. I have no doubt for the foundry authors' abilities, what I have an issue with is them just simply removing content without any replacement and without prviding tools for the people that are suposed to create that replacement.
It basically comes off as:
"We're nuking the exploration in STO!" "But Cryptic, the exploration is the basic premise of ST, you can't do that!" "Well, go to kirksplat if you want exploration" "But kirksplat doesn't have all the tools from you to make it happen on a really quality level" "Uhm...tools...schmools........oh look a new Xindi lockbox!!!"
I have far more faith in the ability of fans to tell stories that capture the essence of Star Trek exploration than I do with metric-driven producers who don't have a problem letting players fly Borg cubes. I have faith in the ability of fans to enrich the lore of this universe, when the overarching story arch of the producers is catered to justify a new lockbox or adventure zone.
No arguments from me here, I'm also pretty sure that every person that dedicated his time and effort to make a foundry mission (that is not a grinder, but a true story content) has much love and passion for the franchise and the work he/she's doing.
Certainly more than Cryptic lately it seems.
What I can guarantee is based not on any confidence in Cryptic, its commitment to Foundry, or any real belief that they'll do anything besides hook up doors as a convenient justification for removing the clusters. What I will say, based solely on my belief in the power of Star Trek fans, is that we can make exploration better than anything done by a blender, or a reputation bucket, or a rinse and repeat pew pew mission made by the devs. We can make exploration feel like exploration. I promise you that, because I know that most authors simply want to tell engaging stories set in the universe of Star Trek. We aren't giving you reasons to do some repetitive task for a .005 point increase in your flight turn rate or a few new plants on your castle.
Again, I don't doubt the ability of foundry authors to provide engaging content, in many instances more engaging than what's been provided in the game by the developer.
What I'm questioning is the amount of content that the foundry can create in a period of time (I have no idea how many missions does the foundry give birth to over a period of time or if there is a way to measure this in game) in order to fill the expectation of closing the gaping hole in terms of exploration, especially opened now after they're killing the clusters.
I'm also questioning the quality of said content, not in terms of the quality of the stories told by the authors, but how accesible they are, how conected to exploration and the clusters both are they as well as wheather they're lost in a cacaphony of 'Admiral Bobo' and other grinders.
We're doing what we can with the only game that we have to work with at the moment. I'm not ready to give up hope on the power and creativity of Star Trek fans, even if I have little faith in the dev team, despite some "skunk work" support by certain devs like Taco or Cryptic Frost.
I know you guys do. And I know authors that have created some remarkable content. As a KDF player, the foundry has been my source of content for quite a while filling the empty space left there by Cryptic until recently. And even now.
What I'm saying is that is sucks royally on Cryptic's behalf to leave the foundry as the only venue for exploration content, while at the same time not moving even their small finger to do something about the foundry and provide the tools you guys need to truly make experiences that will feel like exploration and not a list of missions for me to search from.
Don't get me wrong, I know you're not a Cryptic cheerleader, I tried to make that clear as much as I could.
What I said is that it looks like you're playing the devil's advocate job by encouraging the swapping of the clusters with foundry content (for the right reasons I know), but it comes off as a loud support for the current decsion being made, without firstly doing the following that relates to the second part I'll quote here:
Basically they're saying that the foundry needs to do this work for them, without providing the foundry authors even the basic necessary stuff to make it happen. I have no doubt for the foundry authors' abilities, what I have an issue with is them just simply removing content without any replacement and without prviding tools for the people that are suposed to create that replacement.
It basically comes off as:
"We're nuking the exploration in STO!" "But Cryptic, the exploration is the basic premise of ST, you can't do that!" "Well, go to kirksplat if you want exploration" "But kirksplat doesn't have all the tools from you to make it happen on a really quality level" "Uhm...tools...schmools........oh look a new Xindi lockbox!!!"
No arguments from me here, I'm also pretty sure that every person that dedicated his time and effort to make a foundry mission (that is not a grinder, but a true story content) has much love and passion for the franchise and the work he/she's doing.
Certainly more than Cryptic lately it seems.
Again, I don't doubt the ability of foundry authors to provide engaging content, in many instances more engaging than what's been provided in the game by the developer.
What I'm questioning is the amount of content that the foundry can create in a period of time (I have no idea how many missions does the foundry give birth to over a period of time or if there is a way to measure this in game) in order to fill the expectation of closing the gaping hole in terms of exploration, especially opened now after they're killing the clusters.
I'm also questioning the quality of said content, not in terms of the quality of the stories told by the authors, but how accesible they are, how conected to exploration and the clusters both are they as well as wheather they're lost in a cacaphony of 'Admiral Bobo' and other grinders.
I know you guys do. And I know authors that have created some remarkable content. As a KDF player, the foundry has been my source of content for quite a while filling the empty space left there by Cryptic until recently. And even now.
What I'm saying is that is sucks royally on Cryptic's behalf to leave the foundry as the only venue for exploration content, while at the same time not moving even their small finger to do something about the foundry and provide the tools you guys need to truly make experiences that will feel like exploration and not a list of missions for me to search from.
I can't really argue against your legit concerns here. You have good reasons for raising each question and objection. However, I will say that, despite the lack of support, we can do a lot with the tools that we currently have. We can make missions now that put those cluster missions to shame.
Whether or not people can find those missions is another story. We've been asking for a UI revamp for a long time now, and there is a widely supported alternative that many of us have been requesting for many months. It is Captain Hunter's proposal.
As it stands now, even if many authors spent 2 months really filling in those exploration clusters, players would need to know how to search for the missions, and the lists would only show like the top 50 results. So, it's a big problem that needs to addressed.
But, it doesn't change the potential that we have to really flesh out the clusters, if there is dev support for it. This change, as minimal as it is, could be the first step toward that support. And, there is supposed to be some important Foundry news in the coming days or weeks.
In the end, regardless of the lack or plentitude of dev support, we can still do a lot with what we have. And I think you'll enjoy what we can do, if you can find the missions. Maybe you'll need to rely on a thread in the Foundry section of the forums. Even then, I think the experience will be more enjoyable than the previous clusters or anything that might resemble a Cryptic revamp of a blender.
So, yeah, it will be a challenge. But, I think we are up for it, in spite of the enormous hurdles.
Problem is that they haven't said so far IF they're going to replace both ground & Space Exploration or not.
If they do so. They are going to have to start from scrach and it is going to have to be many times better that they had and could of fix for less than what they are going to spend in the terms of money, time and manhours to replace the former exploration setup.
To me that seams to be a very bad business practice.
I have a dream where CBS gets its head out if *** and laids down the law to both CRYPTIC and PWE and says if you don't clean up your act. The possility of Star Trek Lic renewal for STO will be highly unlikly.
Comments
You ARE doing it yourself. Lets compare the process shall we...
Current State Exploration
1. fly to the edge of a map, e.g. Delta Velonis
2. presented with a prompt to enter the territory
3. once inside you fly around until you locate an "Explore Unknown System" popup
4. enter the system then proceed to some canned oft repeated set of gameplay
Foundry State Exploration
1. fly to a point on the map, e.g. Delta Velonis
2. presented with a list of missions to choose from
3. once selected you are thrown immediately into a story that could be ANYTHING
notice how the first two steps are EXACTLY THE SAME. Fly to a point and make a choice to interact. in this comparison you are giving up the action of flying around looking for missions to immediately selecting a mission and doing your flying around and exploring IN ONE LESS STEP.
There was a poster in this thread that wrote an extension explanation of how he role plays with the exploration clusters. I was taken aback by how much imagination he needed to expend to make what he was obviously describing as a lackluster game mechanic into something he could enjoy.
Why waste energy, play a foundry mission and let the authors do the imagination for you.
EDIT: Actually, I'm stopping my argument. not because it's pointless, but because I just realized all the counter arguments are doing is giving authors ideas for their next mission. An empty space map in the foundry is just as big as an "exploration cluster". If you like flying around looking for mystery in unknown space that is easily created.
Careful now there, Rekurzion,
Step 2. will probably be Open mission journal and somehow try to find a Foundry mission that starts at this door. I've seen no indications that the clusters will present something to players, as far as what Foundry missions are there. So people will probably have to fight tooth and nail with the UI.
I hope that isn't the case though. Basically, somebody is going to have to know that if you search "title" for "Delta Volanis," you get a list of missions with Delta Volanis in the mission description. And even then, it might only show 50 results.
This stuff is a problem that needs to be addressed by devs. I'm not too sure that they are aware of it.
NO! (You win the award for creating the biggest oxymoron ever btw.)
A dice roll is inherently unpredictable, that's why we use them when a random outcome is called for. You wouldn't say a coin is predictable because it only has two sides. It's only got two possible outcomes, but when you toss the coin you don't know what you're going to get.
A foundry mission is the exact antithesis of exploration.
Maybe this will help you understanding why people don't consider this exploration. If you run a foundry mission a hundred times, it will be identical each time. It's the perfect antithesis of exploration. It can't even have branching dialog.
Conversely, the exploration clusters, you don't know what combination of things you're going to get. It may be limited like a coin, but you don't know if it's going to be heads or tails until you flip it. It would be great if there were more diversity in the missions, but there's no need to kill what tiny bit of diversity there is.
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. We have tons of branching dialogue. We can even fake branching objectives. We can do things like trigger explosions or enemy mobs, given a player's choice in a dialogue. We can set explosions to timers of sorts. We can even have alternate endings. It is not as linear as you think it is. It is far more powerful than anything done in a cluster mission.
Also, what I meant by the die is that you will know for certain that it will be 1 of something, depending on how many sides the die has. With foundry, you literally have no idea, most of the time, what will happen or what it's really about at all.
And we don't really expect you to play the mission more than once, unless you want to see different outcomes. Go play a different author's mission if you're done with mine. Go explore what else is out there in that great unknown.
You're right, I mean branching objectives, not dialog - like going to different maps or having different things spawn based on the dialog choices or actions in the map.
I think the main issue is that some of us see exploration in two separate ways, and others (I think you're in this camp) view them as the same thing.
I would say it's not simply being unaware or not knowing what's going to happen that provides exploration. It's the fact that it's not completely scripted. That this particular time I'm doing something will be personal.
I'll try to give you an example: Mass Effect (substitute any suitable modern RPG on rails) - I would not say is exploration. I don't know what's going to happen before I play it, but I'm not exploring. Dialog choice can impact the flow of the narrative. Actions can impact the flow of the narrative. But it's essentially a predetermined story with some branches. It's a narrative - there's an implied story being told. The key is there's a narrative, some other person is driving the fiction, telling the story.
Exploration is the opposite. I would say games like FTL, NetHack, etc offer exploration. There's a set up giving motivation, there's a goal, but what happens in between is essentially random. The encounters are random, the enemies are random. What you find is random. The Exploration Clusters offer this in a fashion. "Go see what's out there." Yes, you're going to get one of a handful of missions, with some random aliens and some slightly different planetary graphics. It's not much, but it's something. Put that in front of someone with imagination and they have an experience - a somewhat unique one. And the experience is their own. It was generated for them, it was personal.
It would be great if there was more variety, but what's there is a beginning that should be expanded not axed.
OK, this is by far the clearest explanation offered so far in this thread. I think that I understand. But, with Foundry, you have no idea what is going to happen, what mobs I'll use, what locations will occur, etc. etc. And it's all just as scripted as it would be if a machine randomly scripted it with different variables, just for you.
We don't expect you to play it twice. So, from your point of view, isn't that random and personal? I mean, it's not like you have a choice when the blender writes an instance for you. You have to fight who the blender makes you fight in that instance.
But, with a long list of Foundry missions that are each unique, you don't really know what you're going to experience, except that it will be different from the last experience in that cluster. Because it's a different mission.
Also, we can do this with Foundry:
I understand. In fact I've done it in some foundry missions I've built. Mostly to spawn helper ships in space missions based on interaction with an object. But the point is that this branching dialog doesn't meet the definition of exploration I put forward. Assuming it's capable of creating something on the level of Mass Effect level interactions, that's not still not exploration.
So just touching back one what I said in my last post - simply not knowing what's going to happen doesn't meet the criteria for exploration. When I watch a movie the first time, I have no idea what's going to happen. I'm not exploring, I'm being told a story.
It was kind of a short lived thing, but there some "choose your own adventure" style DVDs and VHS tapes. But again, even these are choosing
So there's the rub. Exploration missions are something you could play twice and have a different experience. Or a dozen times, or a hundred times. Eventually you'll get an idea of the limits of the system, but the experience will be slightly different each time. Again, more variety would be welcome.
It's just not a substitute. They're not the same thing. It would be like taking out the Foundry and saying, well there's PVE queues, go play them - what happens will be based on your team! You can RP a story! You wouldn't think that was a good idea would you?
And I want to be clear, this isn't a competition between the Foundry and Exploration Clusters. They're different things and they meet the needs of different playstyles. A Foundry mission (or a lot of them) aren't a good substitute. It should be clear by the fact the Foundry is already in game as an option and you have people saying they would like to keep clusters. That on it's face should be sufficient to indicate one is not an effective replacement for the other.
"Second star to the right, and straight on till the morning"
"Boldly go where no one has gone before"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrizm2gnQBo
I think Star Trek Online lost it.
Funny, I think newer games going capture the sense of Star Trek better then Star Trek Online this coming year and next.
No Mans Sky (Next Generation Take On It)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLtmEjqzg7M
Eve Online (Deep Space Nine Take On It)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFTUazuGdTw
Honorable mentions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvIZUrB92fI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYDmq1TeDFs
So, I probably will get the Playstation 4 soon.
But if you're an explorer, you shouldn't be visiting the same place over and over again expecting a different experience. I don't understand the distinction here. Go explore strange new worlds, not the the same world on auto-repeat where the people are suddenly Vegans instead of hot dog lovers like the last time you vacationed there. That's not exploration. That's more like the definition of insanity, you know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
I also don't understand what that second paragraph is trying to say.
You might like this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrizm2gnQBo
If they revamped the Genesis engine, and put the exploration clusters between certain sectors. It would have been nice. This video would be a good example of possiblities.
The idea is that it's not the same place over and over. The conceit is that it's a different place that you're discovering. I understand STO's implementation is limited.
Your comparison to insanity is misguided. We understand how the system functions AND WE LIKE IT. We want it to be more than it is, but we'd prefer not lose what we have.
It's saying simply that the Foundry is not an acceptable substitute for Exploration Clusters. They're not the same thing, they're not what people who do clusters want. Foundry missions are already in game and if someone preferred them they would already be dong them instead of Clusters. Conversely there are people who find Clusters fun and prefer those.
Genesis does not create missions in real time. Genesis isn't even a part of the game. Genesis is a dev tool that they used to create a few thousand missions.
My character Tsin'xing
Keeping in mind that the only difference between that Exploration mission and an STF is the slider bar you can fill out in the Reputation box after.
And the only difference between that exploration mission and Tau Dewa is you get to click your reward choice for Tau Dewa after doing one of the dailies, but have to do three explorations to get the reward from the wrapper.
Oh and the exploration missions have variety. The Daily is the same exact mission. Every single time.
The Breen keep falling for the same sensor trick. YEARS later.
That's immersive story focused gameplay, lemme tell ya!
I'm not exploring the same place over and over again. I'm exploring uncharted parts of the B'Tran Cluster that I've never been to before. Planet XYZ12345 is different from where I was yesterday, Planet ABC0987. Different sky, different columns, different people (Crimto instead of Starlians).
But that Borg STF and that Voth Battlezone look suspiciously familiar. Like completely redundant.
But, you're still delivering the same 10 Shield Generators, or still picking up the same five probe pieces, or still shooting the five alien mobs to death.
Gee, how did all of that get there, too?
Aiding a new planet I've just discovered with the same standard set of starfleet provisions is really part of the routine of exploration and being in starfleet.
It's still a new planet I haven't aided before.
But when I visit the P'Jemm monastery, it's the exact same Undine who's once again impersonating the exact same ambassador.
Which content is the shallower content? Which of these is the low quality mission? Which has the higher standards of development?
They both seem pretty meh overall to me. I can just use my imagination more with the exploration system and pretend better and have more fun personally.
If they were removed, then the cluster missions would only rely on their low quality although random (which is refreshing) content. And all the content in the Cluster Missions was not just about KILLING EVERYTHING! So there was some real Exploration. . .
But that limited exploration and other limited cluster missions would need to be Improved, and that takes imagination and time. . . Time which Cryptic could use to make a new ship for Zen, or a new Lock Box for Zen, or a new area for us to need better equipment for Zen. . . and on and on.
So compared to making Zen money, Revamping the Exploration system which would not make them Any Zen money is a Extremely Low Priority.
Although it is the most authentic Star Trek thing they could do (in my opinion)
So they continue to turn Star Trek into Battlestar Galactica=WAR, or Star Wars=WAR, or just Plain WAR. . . Because there is money to be made in it. While us true Star Trek explorers, desire exploration missions that surprise us and keep doing so. Where we can learn about new places, peoples and cultures and see wondrous sights never before seen. . .
Not just a well voice acted episode every once in a while. Have you noticed that the first 3 to 4 Episodes are 5 missions long, then the Worf voice acted episodes were only 3, and now the Tuvok Episode is only 1? (please forgive me if I am not remembering the numbers Exactly right, it is the idea I am trying to convey to you).
Yes I love those new Episodes! But I have noticed a definite slow down in the creation of this new content, ever since Cryptic has split their time between STO and Neverwinter. Haven't you?
We are losing more than just Cluster exploration missions, we are losing the Doff Chain missions where you could get blue and purple doffs at the end of them and redo them over and over. . .
We are losing first contact missions. Losing diplomatic missions. Losing Lots of Doff missions as other folks have already pointed out as they are playing with Version 9.5 on Tribble. We are also loosing 1440 dilithium a day.
I am not trying to be mean, I am just voicing the opinion that Starfleet was suppose to be a Peace Keeping force, that is now fighting on more fronts than ever in any of the series. . . Lets see we are fighting the Undine, the Voth, the Tal'Shiar, the Tholians, and the Borg, and still some Klingons. . . I believe that is more than many of the series put together.
So when some of you say Good they are getting rid of the Cluster Missions, . . . Realize that although your right they were not that good, . . . They Were One of the ONLY Random things in the game. . .
My last thought is this, If indeed Cryptic wants to pass the torch to the Really Hard working Foundry Authors, shouldn't they get some incentive, and more importantly, Shouldn't those authors get the same "Quality" tools for exploration missions, that Cryptic has been using to make their own "Quality" missions? So that way the "Quality" can be improved using the EXACT same Tools?
I have helped make missions using the Foundry and the tools in the Foundry are Nothing Close to the "Quality" tools that Cryptic has at their disposal. So Do they really want a "Increase in Quality across the Game or don't they? Because they need to release those tools to the Foundry Authors to really accomplish that goal. Lets see what they do, shall we?
Thanks for your time!
Yes, the exploration in that game is what exploration in this game should have been.
So they butcher the cornerstone of Star Trek, exploration, in favour of what? Nothing.
They remove STFs so why not remove all those that doesn't get played enough. They might as well remove PvP due to the small number of players actually playing it.
No seriously, removing content is BAD Cryptic. Looking back on all the other times you have done that and the repercussions it had on the community, I would have thought that you had learned that it isn't a smart thing to do.
Now, if you decided to replace the exploration with a new system that is more like "No Man's Sky" then people would probably be ecstatic. Or if you simply improved the current one with more mission parameters and add Foundry doors to the map. That would start a truly random Foundry mission. That would be exploring the unknown.
For the Foundry to carry all the weight of exploration is BAR as it still is lacking huge amount or resources and functionality to be a good tool to make missions with. I'm talking about functionality and resources available in game already from mission that Cryptic have made. Like I don't know, NPCs that can switch loyalty during a mission and attack you or join your group for the rest of the mission. Or using a transporter to beam to different locations on the same map resource. Making it possible to test the routing and NPC critter spawning without having to launch the mission first. The option to make single player mission as well as 5 player missions. Making requirements for space suits or any other form of clothing category the default one when on a map. Making hostile environments that require suits to survive. Making maps that can take on up to 20 players or why not 50 players at the same time. Just to mention a few things that needs to improve before the Foundry even can start to fill the gap of the deleted exploration content.
It also need a better alien generator then the one we have now. Why can't we make aliens like the ones from the planet Cheron. Or avian species or aquatic species or canine species?
No removing the exploration maps and the diplomatic first contact missions is a disgrace.
For every change Cryptic presents these days I get less and less interested in playing this game. And I've stuck by this game since closed beta and poured money in to Cryptic's pockets. No I'm beginning to ask myself if it is really worth it. Especially when I read about games like "No Man's Sky" being developed.
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Well you lose half the chances you had to get the mission to spawn with the change. But hey, it's all good!
I hope they pull the same tactic with some other piece of super boring, repetitive, extremely redundant content that's in the game that you participate in. Like STFs.
My character Tsin'xing
It's disappointing for reasons that so many people have already stated: It was a different way to play the game that wasn't centered on the equally redundant and distressingly militant story arcs, episodes and queues. It had some randomness and a totally different feel of hopeful exploration and discovery.
By removing this, it seems that you're essentially removing from STO the unique thematic core of the IP. The thing that makes it different from all other sci-fi - an optimistic view of humanity's future.
Doing this without even attempting to improve or enhance the current system seems...questionable.
An alternative approach would be to improve the system somehow. A couple of suggestions have been made:
1) Improve the system in-house
ADD more random missions and more random aliens. How about a dozen missions in each category that all seem to start the same, but take different directions as each progresses? Maybe some lead into story arcs or first contacts? How about some random alien and critter generation? Environmental threats?
2) Open it up to the Foundry
Not a bad plan. As others have mentioned, it would be better if the Foundry were less limited. Not only mission tools, but also things like alien costumes, critters, environmental issues and (why was this not obvious from day 1?) alien ship costumes.
3) Why not leave it in place?
The devs say it's useless and "not up to standards". That's a fine opinion, but maybe not one that is shared by the community that actually, you know, plays the game. It's also not the only useless aspect of the game...so why is this one system getting singled out for redaction? Why not leave the clusters in place until such time as you can develop a better, more satisfactory system?
When I play STO, I like to imagine the Star Trek universe going on somewhere in the background. NOT the Star Trek universe the dev's imagine - with respect and apologies, they're just fans with a bigger soap box than the rest of us. No, I mean the Star Trek I've seen on screen.
A peace-seeking, humanitarian Star Trek.
The Exploration Clusters best represent that aspect of Star Trek in STO. Removing the Clusters, without any effort to enhance or replace them, removes that spirit from STO and in my opinion, for whatever that's worth, would be...ill-advised.
And, well...there you go.
Carry on.
(Edited for clarity)
My suggestion is you would go thru the worm hole and be presented with a totally un-explored area, each solar system you would be able to map out by exploring the planets, moons, asteroid belts, and some could have other worm holes. Some of these planets would contain various life forms with the more rare ones containing intelligent life or civilizations. The area would be a cross between "EVE" and "Earth and Beyond". Some systems could contain Ruins and Relics. I would be also be nice to include a more "Civilian Side" of game play were one could be a Trader. I think the distance between worlds is a too close, I would like to see space travel more like "EVE" in the way distance, time and flight manner. But maintain the set course and off you go. This would bring more meaning to the type of ship I possess in regards to engine speed (Warp Capability), Trans-Warp Drive and those other purchasable speed/travel perks. I think such a long range endeavor would be a positive for the players and the company. It would bring more meaning to becoming a Admiral and even Player Fleets. Maybe we could start a topic regarding ideas in the design of a "Exploration" area? Heck if the developers needed more funds to create such an area I would certainly chip in on top of my subscription.
For ex., we have kirksplat who I've never seen post so much in a thread not related to the foundry. Now don't get me wrong kirksplat, I know you're one of the most passionate representatives of the foundry community since like forever.
What I'm actually suprised about is how passionately you're doing the job of the devil's advocate here. Please note that I'm not pointing fingers and it's quite possible that because you're so passionate about the foundry to not have noticed you're doing the devil's advocate job.
What saddens me is that if the current state of the foundry treatment by Cryptic is in such a desparate place, so you're so over the moon for getting some crums thrown at the foundry's direction. I mean seriously - noone is debating the quality of the exploration cluster missions here. I have no doubt for a second that the foundry authors could provide better and more varied missions.
But what Cryptic is doing here is relegating content making to the people who play the game, for their own benefit. They're also doing nothing for the foundry here, but throwing crums. Making foundry doors be availibe? Whoopedy-doo!
Now let me ask you kirksplat, and I'm only pointing you out to ask because you're the most prominent member of the foundry community posting here in this passionate debate (don't want anyone to get the impression I've got sth. against them:o) - can you singlehandedly guarantee the quantity of exploration content provided by the foundry?
Because let's face it - pushing the content that is one of the cumberstones of Star Trek to the foundry is not substainable development. The foundry authors are players of STO as well, they're not obligated for anything. What happens if few days from now Cryptic does something epically craptastic to the foundry, that would make the foundry people rage-quit, hypotheticaly speaking? No exploration in STO?
Again, who can guarantee the amount of exploration related content provided by the foundry. Who can guarantee there'll be a big and ever increasing number of missions? Who'll guarantee me that after a couple of weeks playing exploration related foundry missions I won't run out of new content in that regard?
Then, there is the thing about quality. Frankly, in my eyes, attaching foundry doors to the clusters in their "new" incarnation is Season 9.5 doesn't do anything much. Granted I only played around in the foundry for a while (don't have enough time to really devote myslef), but I'm pretty sure a foundry door is just a place you can select your mission to start from. So currently there is no guarantee of the quality of content with a starting point in a cluster, furthermore there's no guarantee it would be exploration related at all. I can put a starting point to my mission in Delta Volanis that will then take you to ESD after the loading screen and your objective will be to dance on Quinn's desk.
As far as I'm aware, the STO team assigned to the foundry currently numbers 0 people! So there's noone to implement a mechanisc specifically for exploration related foundry missions, there's noone to quality check and approve missions that would be treated as 'exploration' which would start in the clusters, in fact there's noone to do anything. Except put a door there.
See where I'm going with this?
The issue at hand here is that they're removing content. Content that regardless of how subpar might have been, was still the closest thing this game had to an actual exploration. Noone's debating quality. Again, I'm not discussing the potential of the Foundry to create more advanced content than the random generator in it's current form.
What is troublesome here is that the game developer is wahsing their hands from a type of content that is the premise of the entire franchise they own a licence to, and outsource the creation of said profile of content to a completely unsustainable source. A source which they have neglected and mislead since the launch of STO, a source that is still in 'beta', a source that gets nothing but crums once in a blue moon, but a source they obviously have no problem falling back to when it takes their collective posteriors out of trouble.
Now there are people saying that since they're removing this, there surely must be a new exploration system right around the corner. This is nothing more than wishfull thinking. As others have said on multiple ocassions, there's no correspondence from Cryptic that would indicate such a thing. For what we know, there is the same amount of chace that Ex.2 will be about exploration as there is a chance to be just another rep.grind, a Cardassian faction, a Kazon kill-a-rama or sharks with friggin' photon cannons on their heads. What we do know however is that the exploration system currently in place is being nuked, without any relevant replacement and the foundry pointed out as a cover shield for the developer to waltz away from responsibility.
And if they really have an exploration revamp/expansion or whatever planned for Ex.2 and they're letting this sad and depressive ragefest, losing confidence in Crpytic and losing faith in STO going on - then their PR responsible should flat out get fired, or at least demoted and sent to finish sveral PR courses. I work in marketing for quite a while even though it's not the profession I graduated for and I'm telling you - if I ever allow such a thing to happen on my watch, I'll get the boot. It's that simple.
At the end - fact time: the main and probably only reason they're removing the clusters right now is the crafting revamp. They want to nerf the gathering of crafting resources before the new system hits holodeck, so they can prolongue the completion of the new crafting schools. Don't forget, we're in a D'Angelo era here - the first thing I heard the guy say after becomming the EP (again) was that the Dyson rep. was not grindy enough for him.
What bothers me actually is them not having the courage to admit this and face the music, but rather underestimating our intellingence here by providing some BS excuses like the size of the game or players getting lost in 2D square with a single entry/exit point. If this was the case, they'd remove the clusters when the game went F2P and they expected a bunch of new F2P players who'd "get lost" in the clusters.
They've basically killed exploration so they can nerf material gathering for crafting. People already explained why it's very complicated for them to change this stuff within the clusters and leave them be - and Cryptic, as always ofcourse, is taking the lazy way out. They don't care it's making the game feel smaller and sadder. It's very simple actually. Use your brain people, it's in there for a reason.
P.S. Sorry for the wall of text, but I feel that some important stuff hapening to the game needs to be discussed.
I'm not sure where to start with a response to this post. Look, if you've followed my long history of pretty much raging and flaming the devs, you'll know that I'm not exactly a cheerleader for Cryptic producers. A lot of my motivation and support for the Foundry comes down to the statement: "You call this Star Trek? Really? You call this Star Trek? Here, this is Star Trek. Take notes, please." There are notable exceptions to the dev content, from excellent FEs to the Romulan expansion, etc. But, the vast majority of "content" in this game has been MMO filler, not Star Trek lore of storytelling. You're lucky to get a story-related cutscene from the Dyson sphere stuff.
I have far more faith in the ability of fans to tell stories that capture the essence of Star Trek exploration than I do with metric-driven producers who don't have a problem letting players fly Borg cubes. I have faith in the ability of fans to enrich the lore of this universe, when the overarching story arch of the producers is catered to justify a new lockbox or adventure zone.
Yes, the Foundry has been treated like an ugly and neglected stepchild. Yes, it is pretty insulting that they are spinning the Foundry as lining up with core design principles when 0 people on the STO team have Foundry in their job description. Yes, the history of the Foundry and its beta state is not exactly an encouraging reason for players to even try to make content for this game. Plus, nobody can really find that content, even if they try.
What I can guarantee is based not on any confidence in Cryptic, its commitment to Foundry, or any real belief that they'll do anything besides hook up doors as a convenient justification for removing the clusters. What I will say, based solely on my belief in the power of Star Trek fans, is that we can make exploration better than anything done by a blender, or a reputation bucket, or a rinse and repeat pew pew mission made by the devs. We can make exploration feel like exploration. I promise you that, because I know that most authors simply want to tell engaging stories set in the universe of Star Trek. We aren't giving you reasons to do some repetitive task for a .005 point increase in your flight turn rate or a few new plants on your castle.
We're doing what we can with the only game that we have to work with at the moment. I'm not ready to give up hope on the power and creativity of Star Trek fans, even if I have little faith in the dev team, despite some "skunk work" support by certain devs like Taco or QA support from Cryptic Frost.
According to Cryptic, they want to remove the Exploration Clusters because the missions are not up to the standards of quality of the other missions of the game. It also takes up too much hard drive space on end-users systems, driving away new players.
Ok, so Cryptic gives you a car (STO as a basic representation of Star Trek canon) with tires shaped like hexagons - it's tires are not perfected, they are a work in progress, but it gets you to where you need to go... roughly.
Each one of the tires are called Episodes, Reputation System, Crafting and Exploration.
The first tire was called Episodes gets replaced with better Episodes (left front) - it's definitely a little smoother ride.
Next to be replaced was Reputation System (the right-front tire,) it's a little over inflated and wears down more due to "grinding" but there are more new ones coming every other month to replace it.
Next one to be replaced is called Crafting (right-rear tire) but Cryptic figures that since the Exploration tire shares the same axle as Crafting, Exploration is not really necessary. Crafting can hold up the back of the car. Exploration was an ugly tire anyways. So the plan is to replace Crafting but remove the wheel for Exploration altogether.
You ask Cryptic why only one wheel in back, car were meant to have 4 wheels and tires?!
Cryptic says this way they don't need to maintain as many tires and as long as you only make left turns or go straight carefully, besides that, new potential car owners say that the car is too heavy, so without the extra wheel and tire, the car is lighter.
Yes, the car was meant to do right turns too but it's not really necessary, so Cryptic says, "Trust us and carry on."
At this point, some people say the car is better without that fourth wheel, that tire is REALLY ugly. Other say, even though the tire was ugly, the car worked the way it was meant to.
(They haven't worked out the "bugs" yet to be able to make round tires yet. It's a work in progress...)
NOTE: Excuse me if I got the physics wrong, it should still get the point across. I hope you at least found my analogy entertaining.
SCE ADVISORY NOTICE: Improper Impulse Engine maintenance can result in REAR THRUSTER LEAKAGE. ALWAYS have your work inspected by another qualified officer.
Don't get me wrong, I know you're not a Cryptic cheerleader, I tried to make that clear as much as I could.
What I said is that it looks like you're playing the devil's advocate job by encouraging the swapping of the clusters with foundry content (for the right reasons I know), but it comes off as a loud support for the current decsion being made, without firstly doing the following that relates to the second part I'll quote here:
Basically they're saying that the foundry needs to do this work for them, without providing the foundry authors even the basic necessary stuff to make it happen. I have no doubt for the foundry authors' abilities, what I have an issue with is them just simply removing content without any replacement and without prviding tools for the people that are suposed to create that replacement.
It basically comes off as:
"We're nuking the exploration in STO!"
"But Cryptic, the exploration is the basic premise of ST, you can't do that!"
"Well, go to kirksplat if you want exploration"
"But kirksplat doesn't have all the tools from you to make it happen on a really quality level"
"Uhm...tools...schmools........oh look a new Xindi lockbox!!!"
No arguments from me here, I'm also pretty sure that every person that dedicated his time and effort to make a foundry mission (that is not a grinder, but a true story content) has much love and passion for the franchise and the work he/she's doing.
Certainly more than Cryptic lately it seems.
Again, I don't doubt the ability of foundry authors to provide engaging content, in many instances more engaging than what's been provided in the game by the developer.
What I'm questioning is the amount of content that the foundry can create in a period of time (I have no idea how many missions does the foundry give birth to over a period of time or if there is a way to measure this in game) in order to fill the expectation of closing the gaping hole in terms of exploration, especially opened now after they're killing the clusters.
I'm also questioning the quality of said content, not in terms of the quality of the stories told by the authors, but how accesible they are, how conected to exploration and the clusters both are they as well as wheather they're lost in a cacaphony of 'Admiral Bobo' and other grinders.
I know you guys do. And I know authors that have created some remarkable content. As a KDF player, the foundry has been my source of content for quite a while filling the empty space left there by Cryptic until recently. And even now.
What I'm saying is that is sucks royally on Cryptic's behalf to leave the foundry as the only venue for exploration content, while at the same time not moving even their small finger to do something about the foundry and provide the tools you guys need to truly make experiences that will feel like exploration and not a list of missions for me to search from.
I can't really argue against your legit concerns here. You have good reasons for raising each question and objection. However, I will say that, despite the lack of support, we can do a lot with the tools that we currently have. We can make missions now that put those cluster missions to shame.
Whether or not people can find those missions is another story. We've been asking for a UI revamp for a long time now, and there is a widely supported alternative that many of us have been requesting for many months. It is Captain Hunter's proposal.
As it stands now, even if many authors spent 2 months really filling in those exploration clusters, players would need to know how to search for the missions, and the lists would only show like the top 50 results. So, it's a big problem that needs to addressed.
But, it doesn't change the potential that we have to really flesh out the clusters, if there is dev support for it. This change, as minimal as it is, could be the first step toward that support. And, there is supposed to be some important Foundry news in the coming days or weeks.
In the end, regardless of the lack or plentitude of dev support, we can still do a lot with what we have. And I think you'll enjoy what we can do, if you can find the missions. Maybe you'll need to rely on a thread in the Foundry section of the forums. Even then, I think the experience will be more enjoyable than the previous clusters or anything that might resemble a Cryptic revamp of a blender.
So, yeah, it will be a challenge. But, I think we are up for it, in spite of the enormous hurdles.
If they do so. They are going to have to start from scrach and it is going to have to be many times better that they had and could of fix for less than what they are going to spend in the terms of money, time and manhours to replace the former exploration setup.
To me that seams to be a very bad business practice.
I have a dream where CBS gets its head out if *** and laids down the law to both CRYPTIC and PWE and says if you don't clean up your act. The possility of Star Trek Lic renewal for STO will be highly unlikly.