So you have poor, or simply extremely obscure, taste in content. There are many far surperior and more enjoyable equivalents to it out there. Example given: Tau Dewa daily. Repeatable missions, yet not buggy or entirely outdated. Second example, Dyson ground zone, more dil (you can hit refine limit in less than 20 minutes), less time, repeatables, and actually quite fun. Same with the space Undine zone, Defera, so on.
How do we know what Cryptic has planned in the future? For now yes, but who is to say what we will get later on? Wait and see. Something said in the now, or done in the now, speaks little for the future of things to come.
Yes, the foundry is exactly that way right now, because no one is putting the time into making something better out of it. Help change that instead of being a bystander. SFD has several members who put a great deal of care and detail into their efforts while having the rest of us vigorously test the results and provide input.
Now on to the whining over crafting materials.
I usually sit in either the Sirius block or Sphere just half AFK doffing for the CXP to turn into fleet marks as I am lazy and utterly drown in stacks of those materials within no time at all to were I often discarded them in the past out of principle.
Generally doffing is a lower effort, higher "profit" method of getting your materials together and doesn't require flying around actively playing that dull scanning minigame hundreds of times over.
That is also were most crafting materials come from really, so no, there is no insane conspiracy to do with the revamp.
The only thing it might effect is that you now get to go do something enjoyable while passively reaping the same rewards vs doing the same mind-numbing task all day.
There is literally nothing to complain about here, unless you have some obtuse emotional attachment to horrible missions and one of the world's dullest means to farm materials.
Aside from the fact that you can't actually explore the Foundry you mean? Unless you get a sense of exploration from using search engines and reading lists that is.
It is the missions and the clusters themselves together that make exploration a unique experience in STO; the missions are only half the point. The Foundry cannot even recreate the experience, and therefore cannot improve upon it. It is quite simply impossible.
People claiming they don't see why anyone should be angry about this are like crafters wondering why raiders are upset over their 60 man dungeons getting taken away because 'We could make you much better gear than ever dropped from those bosses if you just asked'.
Aside from the fact that you can't actually explore the Foundry you mean? Unless you get a sense of exploration from using search engines and reading lists that is.
It is the missions and the clusters themselves together that make exploration a unique experience in STO; the missions are only half the point. The Foundry cannot even recreate the experience, and therefore cannot improve upon it. It is quite simply impossible.
People claiming they don't see why anyone should be angry about this are like crafters wondering why raiders are upset over their 60 man dungeons getting taken away because 'We could make you much better gear than ever dropped from those bosses if you just asked'.
Sorry, but 5 missions with a few randomly generated awful and out of place lines does not qualify as exploration. Nor does flying around a pointlessly small box with a few points that give you one of said 5 missions.
The current exploration system is less exciting than the thrill of "exploration" I get out of finding some loose change in the cracks of my sofa.
While I am certain that you find scanning 5 artifacts of the 7th Borg dynasty in a system they rightfully claim by ancient pretext exciting, and not in any way completely out of context with everything in Trek, those missions are absolutely awful.
As to everyone else, it's good to see we can agree on something.
Also Kirkfat, I have done a few of your foundry missions in the past I noticed, quite nice, keep up the good work.
I'll be giving the rest of yous' missions a try later on and be sure to provide a review.
Sorry, but 5 missions with a few randomly generated awful and out of place lines does not qualify as exploration. Nor does flying around a pointlessly small box with a few points that give you one of said 5 missions.
The current exploration system is less exciting than the thrill of "exploration" I get out of finding some loose change in the cracks of my sofa.
While I am certain that you find scanning 5 artifacts of the 7th Borg dynasty in a system they rightfully claim by ancient pretext exciting, and not in any way completely out of context with everything in Trek, those missions are absolutely awful.
...
What you are saying here would be a personal opinion. It is fine that you don't like the clusters. The issue is that some of us do.
Aside from the fact that you can't actually explore the Foundry you mean? Unless you get a sense of exploration from using search engines and reading lists that is.
It is the missions and the clusters themselves together that make exploration a unique experience in STO; the missions are only half the point. The Foundry cannot even recreate the experience, and therefore cannot improve upon it. It is quite simply impossible.
People claiming they don't see why anyone should be angry about this are like crafters wondering why raiders are upset over their 60 man dungeons getting taken away because 'We could make you much better gear than ever dropped from those bosses if you just asked'.
If this is your biggest set of complaints, why not voice your support for something like a simple script that lets the player "Explore Delta Volanis (UGC)" and randomly runs a foundry mission that uses that door? At the end, it would ask "Keep Exploring?" And that would load a different random mission. Perhaps the thing could be fine-tuned not to give you anything below 3 stars or under 40 plays.
And with the lists, it's not exactly like you know what you're getting. Most mission descriptions would be something like this:
"A planetary survey reveals clues about an ancient civilization. What you discover may have far-reaching implications."
Or,
"The U.S.S. Tuscany hasn't reported back from its survey of Delta Volanis. We need you to find the ship and assess the situation. Set a course for Delta Volanis."
You have no idea what you'll discover until you get there to explore. And let's be honest here, your "moments" of discovery in the clusters really amount to not knowing which 5 variants of a mission will load, followed by an almost instant recognition of "OK, this is an aid the planet one," or "TRIBBLE, I have to fight too many ships in this one, so I'm leaving to find a shorter mission."
If this is your biggest set of complaints, why not voice your support for something like a simple script that lets the player "Explore Delta Volanis (UGC)" and randomly runs a foundry mission that uses that door? At the end, it would ask "Keep Exploring?" And that would load a different random mission. Perhaps the thing could be fine-tuned not to give you anything below 3 stars or under 40 plays.
And with the lists, it's not exactly like you know what you're getting. Most mission descriptions would be something like this:
"A planetary survey reveals clues about an ancient civilization. What you discover may have far-reaching implications."
Or,
"The U.S.S. Tuscany hasn't reported back from its survey of Delta Volanis. We need you to find the ship and assess the situation. Set a course for Delta Volanis."
You have no idea what you'll discover until you get there to explore. And let's be honest here, your "moments" of discovery in the clusters really amount to not knowing which 5 variants of a mission will load, followed by an almost instant recognition of "OK, this is an aid the planet one," or "TRIBBLE, I have to fight too many ships in this one, so I'm leaving to find a shorter mission."
I'd like a 'random' button for the Foundry; but as an exploration thing that would only get us halfway back to where we even started. What we'd actually need to add exploration to the Foundry would be an interface that is like the cluster maps (though, obviously, I wouldn't complain if they came up with better ones). So we have an 'exploration zone' where random Foundry missions can be found.
Even then, I'd still rather they left at least some exploration missions in just to pad out the lists; and to preserve the NPC random alien races that populate the clusters.
They'll still be there. We can make them and flesh them out. We'll explore their culture, instead of just making them ask you for stem bolts.
Unless they need Stem Bolts, right? It's not like Stem Bolts would give any given race a particular advantage over any other.
Now Warp Coils is something else altogether!
Star Trek Battles Channel - Play Star Trek like they did in the series!Avatar: pinterest-com/pin/14003448816884219Are you sure it isn't time for a "colorful metaphor"? --Spock in 'The Voyage Home' SCE ADVISORY NOTICE: Improper Impulse Engine maintenance can result in REAR THRUSTER LEAKAGE. ALWAYS have your work inspected by another qualified officer.
They'll still be there. We can make them and flesh them out. We'll explore their culture, instead of just making them ask you for stem bolts.
Well, they'd still be handy to have for reference. I mean, could you describe what a Crimto looks like? I couldn't, and I was just fighting them the other day.
Or do these races actually exist as foundry assets?
Well, they'd still be handy to have for reference. I mean, could you describe what a Crimto looks like? I couldn't, and I was just fighting them the other day.
Or do these races actually exist as foundry assets?
The foundry has a character creator that is pretty similar to what you use to make a toon. It's like the season 3 version of the character creator, so there are some limits to what can be made. Plus we have a costume limit of 25 costumes per mission. So, it would be tough to make a large crowd of aliens over several maps.
But there is a lot that we can do. We can create the Crinto from our imagination. Other weird aliens too. We can even reskin mobs to make squirrels try to bite you or nanoov attack with weird Devidian effects.
What you are saying here would be a personal opinion. It is fine that you don't like the clusters. The issue is that some of us do.
Please explain how it is a matter of opinion that said missions are A) outdated, often out of context C) notably buggy and D) a quick generated selection from a very shallow pool and E) regarded as the mostly poorly implemented element of gameplay by the greater part of the community.
Also please explain how said missions define "exploration" when within a second of warping in you are aware exactly which pre-generated mission you have recieved and the only mystery is which (possibly inappropriate and out of place) head of the week you have to talk to/give commodities to/blow up.
I also never stated that I do not like the cluster, I do not like the outdated missions, yes, however given the plethora of undeniably far surperior quality and far more rewarding content out there, you cannot truely argue in favor of the outdated content in question, nor it's paltry payouts, which are easily topped with far less skill or effort, if you find yourself out for profit.
The other point of worry, the crafting materials, I have also pointed out that there will be no shortage of them. Previously, if you logged in just to farm particles playing that minigame repeatedly, you probably wasted a huge amount of time and I am shocked anyone would find a task that utterly mundane, repetitive, and unrewarding enjoyable for the length of time required to get any sensible amount of materials.
Unless of course you want to admit to botting said clusters for materials, in which case, shame on you, both for botting, and botting something of such low value.
Now, with a bit of re-reading, you will notice what I pointed out is that we are not actually losing anything aside from said outdated missions, and really, do you play the game just to do those? If so, why? Why spend the time on what is arguably the weakest PvE element? Why did no one ever speak up previously or show the slightest amount of care or concern for clusters aside from stating "Man, these are outdated and pretty bad.", which is the exact feedback leading to this change?
Crafting material income remains ridiculously easy with low effort, doffing remains unaffected, we gain an encouragement to explore our own minds and imaginations which are limitless.
How is any of the above line a bad thing?
I do agree with the idea of the foundry "doors" to clusters, where it would give you a random mission within certain criteria, such as above a certain rating from a certain number of players. I find that idea to be absolutely fantastic, or even just having a filter option for regions added to the foundry.
However it is essentially fact that we are losing nothing of real value.
Everything that really matters within the cluster, is staying just the way it is.
Unless of course you want to admit to botting said clusters for materials, in which case, shame on you, both for botting, and botting something of such low value.
However it is essentially fact that we are losing nothing of real value.
Everything that really matters within the cluster, is staying just the way it is.
I disagree.
Removing working, albeit dated, game play elements is a poor move. There are people who clearly enjoy using it or no one would be saying. It's just going to upset players, some of them who spend money on the game, for no gain. So ultimately it's a net negative.
If there's a concern about the game being perceived badly for it, don't necessarily direct players there.
The system's thin, but it can be a fun diversion if you have some imagination.
It wouldn't surprise me if they did. Have you ever seen how sophisticated the mining bots were for EVE? I once visited a friend of my college room-mates that had Eve mining bots running for days at a time, easily netting them millions of isk daily.
It wouldn't surprise me. A lot of people have really poor understanding of how to make money in the game and I used to see "legit" EC earning advice about farming particle traces, which even then was terrible, slow, and not really rewarding vs rerunning certain missions to sell the loot/rewards.
Plus as said, no real reason to sit in that cluster or farm those materials given that you can go set up the scan this and that doff missions and get showered in them without having to do something that rivals watching paint dry on the fun scale.
So can't really think of why someone would argue that point unless they have some crazy (and utterly silly because low income and slow) bot farm for traces going.
1) Please explain how it is a matter of opinion that said missions are A) outdated, often out of context C) notably buggy and D) a quick generated selection from a very shallow pool and E) regarded as the mostly poorly implemented element of gameplay by the greater part of the community.
2) Also please explain how said missions define "exploration" when within a second of warping in you are aware exactly which pre-generated mission you have recieved and the only mystery is which (possibly inappropriate and out of place) head of the week you have to talk to/give commodities to/blow up.
3) I also never stated that I do not like the cluster, I do not like the outdated missions, yes, however given the plethora of undeniably far surperior quality and far more rewarding content out there, you cannot truely argue in favor of the outdated content in question, nor it's paltry payouts, which are easily topped with far less skill or effort, if you find yourself out for profit.
4) The other point of worry, the crafting materials, I have also pointed out that there will be no shortage of them. Previously, if you logged in just to farm particles playing that minigame repeatedly, you probably wasted a huge amount of time and I am shocked anyone would find a task that utterly mundane, repetitive, and unrewarding enjoyable for the length of time required to get any sensible amount of materials.
Unless of course you want to admit to botting said clusters for materials, in which case, shame on you, both for botting, and botting something of such low value.
5) Now, with a bit of re-reading, you will notice what I pointed out is that we are not actually losing anything aside from said outdated missions, and really, do you play the game just to do those? If so, why? Why spend the time on what is arguably the weakest PvE element? Why did no one ever speak up previously or show the slightest amount of care or concern for clusters aside from stating "Man, these are outdated and pretty bad.", which is the exact feedback leading to this change?
Crafting material income remains ridiculously easy with low effort, doffing remains unaffected, we gain an encouragement to explore our own minds and imaginations which are limitless.
How is any of the above line a bad thing?
I do agree with the idea of the foundry "doors" to clusters, where it would give you a random mission within certain criteria, such as above a certain rating from a certain number of players. I find that idea to be absolutely fantastic, or even just having a filter option for regions added to the foundry.
6) However it is essentially fact that we are losing nothing of real value.
Sorry, but 5 missions with a few randomly generated awful and out of place lines does not qualify as exploration. Nor does flying around a pointlessly small box with a few points that give you one of said 5 missions.
The current exploration system is less exciting than the thrill of "exploration" I get out of finding some loose change in the cracks of my sofa.
While I am certain that you find scanning 5 artifacts of the 7th Borg dynasty in a system they rightfully claim by ancient pretext exciting, and not in any way completely out of context with everything in Trek, those missions are absolutely awful.
...
Those would be opinions. You can tell by the use of words like 'awful' and 'pointless'; and the way you claim to find rooting change out of your sofa to be more exciting.
2) Like I said before, it is the way the clusters as a whole work. The missions by themselves do not make an exploration system. A key point of an exploration system is the requirement that you go look for things of interest; not just pick them from a list of search results. That is what exploration is.
3) I suppose it's possible I have misunderstood your personal feelings on the matter, but frankly it seems unlikely given what you have been posting about this issue. If you do in fact not dislike the clusters, then I apologise for my poor choice of words.
I certainly can argue against it. Not that I wouldn't like to see it improved; but more on that in point 5.
4) A matter for others to argue. I don't care about the materials.
5) See that link in my signature? That is just one of many such threads that have come up over the years. Plenty of people have expressed care and concern about the clusters.
Nobody I know of would ever claim they represented the best PvE content the game had to offer, but it's the only exploration we have; and many of us have been hoping that this core launch feature, which is central to the very premise of Star Trek, would receive the dev attention it deserved someday. That's improvements, not removal.
The Foundry doors do nothing to make up for this. The Foundry has been there for years for anyone who wanted to use it; but people still used the clusters anyway, because we wanted to explore, and the Foundry is not exploration.
Removing working, albeit dated, game play elements is a poor move. There are people who clearly enjoy using it or no one would be saying. It's just going to upset players, some of them who spend money on the game, for no gain. So ultimately it's a net negative.
If there's a concern about the game being perceived badly for it, don't necessarily direct players there.
The system's thin, but it can be a fun diversion if you have some imagination.
This was the entire point. Before this, absolutely no one said "Hey, this is fun.".
Everyone said the exact opposite or just plain ignored it entirely.
Also there is no aspect of having a gold account at all that this will effect in the slightest, so that point falls through automatically.
There is simply no loss and no, this is not a poor move in any way.
Re-read what I pointed out, literally nothing is being lost aside from unarguably low grade content, which the feedback on has lead to this move.
As to a "fun diversion with a bit of imagination", sure, except there is no real imagination involved in the system, nor much to apply for more than maybe 10 minutes, made even harder by flickering backgrounds, out of place themes, so on.
On the "fun distraction" scale, it's up there with drinking listerine or popping out-of-date medication from the back of the cabinet. It might provide a "fun distraction" on some level, but it's far from good given all the other things you could be doing.
What is being removed is being removed based on negative reception and poor feedback.
What is being gained is a chance to do something better, if you're up to the challenge and not too lazy, and even then, you're free to enjoy the work of someone else.
Also there is no aspect of having a gold account at all that this will effect in the slightest, so that point falls through automatically.
There is simply no loss and no, this is not a poor move in any way.
You're pretty narrowly constraining paying customer there. Even people who buy zen are giving Perfect World money. If you lose even just one of them, that's a net loss.
As to a "fun diversion with a bit of imagination", sure, except there is no real imagination involved in the system, nor much to apply for more than maybe 10 minutes, made even harder by flickering backgrounds, out of place themes, so on.
On the "fun distraction" scale, it's up there with drinking listerine or popping out-of-date medication from the back of the cabinet. It might provide a "fun distraction" on some level, but it's far from good given all the other things you could be doing.
My reply would be if you don't like it, don't use it. It's there and some people do like it. If they were replacing it with other content (pointing people at the Foundry is not replacing it) or revamping it that would be one thing, but removing it wholesale is pointless.
What is being gained is a chance to do something better, if you're up to the challenge and not too lazy, and even then, you're free to enjoy the work of someone else.
No. The chance (for Cryptic) to do something better exists whether it's removed or not. How about do something better to replace it, then remove it? As for players replacing it, the foundry already exists and that's a different system that doesn't create dynamic missions in any form.
we wanted to explore, and the Foundry is not exploration.
I still don't understand why the following is exploration (for many of you):
Randomly enter a cluster to either scan 5/5 things, kill 5/5 things, or deliver some supplies after flying for like a minute to get to a contact spot. And it's all auto-generated and non-sensical
While this is not exploration (for many of you):
Find an exploration mission with an interesting teaser. You won't know what else to expect. It takes you to a strange new world. Beam down and explore. You find the ruins of an ancient civilization. You find clues about what happened. You solve a mystery and a puzzle that is intriguing and story-driven.
If I have to lose the random loading factor, in exchange for the 2nd scenario, I'll gladly give it up. The second scenario feels a lot more like Star Trek exploration, at least to me. The former feels like a slot machine that calls itself exploration.
Having foundry missions that grant bonus rewards requires removing clusters why exactly?
I'm saying that prior, 3 cluster missions granted you 1440 dilithium once a day.
Now, 3 cluster missions will probably come pretty close to filling up your 8000k dil cap, and there is no cooldown. You can keep earning it.
Plus, you get missions that involve exploring a culture, or a planet, etc., instead of trying to find 5 alien artifacts and reading a filler story that often makes little sense.
Those would be opinions. You can tell by the use of words like 'awful' and 'pointless'; and the way you claim to find rooting change out of your sofa to be more exciting.
2) Like I said before, it is the way the clusters as a whole work. The missions by themselves do not make an exploration system. A key point of an exploration system is the requirement that you go look for things of interest; not just pick them from a list of search results. That is what exploration is.
3) I suppose it's possible I have misunderstood your personal feelings on the matter, but frankly it seems unlikely given what you have been posting about this issue. If you do in fact not dislike the clusters, then I apologise for my poor choice of words.
I certainly can argue against it. Not that I wouldn't like to see it improved; but more on that in point 5.
4) A matter for others to argue. I don't care about the materials.
5) See that link in my signature? That is just one of many such threads that have come up over the years. Plenty of people have expressed care and concern about the clusters.
Nobody I know of would ever claim they represented the best PvE content the game had to offer, but it's the only exploration we have; and many of us have been hoping that this core launch feature, which is central to the very premise of Star Trek, would receive the dev attention it deserved someday. That's improvements, not removal.
The Foundry doors do nothing to make up for this. The Foundry has been there for years for anyone who wanted to use it; but people still used the clusters anyway, because we wanted to explore, and the Foundry is not exploration.
6) Of value to you.
1) Opinion, quality, functionality, implemention, and again, exploration. Please find a dictionary and reference all of the above. The missions in far too many cases fall through on quality, functionality, and implementation. They are often bugged graphically, or in terms of content, and sometimes in a nature that renders them incompletable. They do not work as intended nor provide the experience they were intended to beyond the very first time.
You can classify the entire game as "exploration", the first time you go through the content. This also applies to the missions, yes, however doing them once, negates that. You could even call glitching outside of maps "exploration", or messing with tailor options you haven't tried before, so on.
This is the same way you can define exploration as the first time you pick up a rock to see what's under it. Doing it again and again will not change what is under that rock unless someone or something puts something else under it. That has not happened in the argued case.
There is no exploration system in the sense many seem to be claiming is present. This is a simple fact.
The exploration you and many others seem to be defining is indeed far closer to the experience the foundry offers.
2) See above. Exploring the frustration of bugs and the tedium of repetition does not qualify. An exploration system by the argued definition of your case does not exist. Again, fact.
3) The clusters are no issue. The thing is nothing outside of the missions and crafting anomalies is disappearing. I have pointed out various alternatives, as well as the unlikelyhood of those constituting the core gameplay of anyone in the playerbase given the amount of other options and rewards more easily available.
4) The materials were whined over as a reason. However, again, previously stated that doffing provides a higher income without the connected tedium or on-hands involvement, unless you have a bot set up.
5) No offense, but ideas, well, they're like that thing you TRIBBLE from. Everyone has one, most of them stink, and not many people care to see someone else's. It probably has either not been looked at, or disregarded by the developers, which is their right as the game is essentially their project.
They run the ant farm. We are nothing but the ants inside of it.
6) Value applies to market rates or reasons why you would be doing these. The fact that many activities require less effort to earn more is undeniable.
Examples:
Dyson ground battlezone for dilithium, especially if you include mark and implant conversion as well. It is possible to hit refine limit in under 20 minutes even with mediocre equipment. Exploration missions require the similar amount of time for the required 3 for less than a quarter of the refine limit. Also the mission providing the dil reward is on a cooldown, the battlezone missions are as well, however you are not prevented from recieving repeated rewards for capturing points or defeating the V-rex bosses.
Undine space battlezone for EC. EC drops in the exploration missions are rubbish, where the space battlezone is a pinata of loot that can quickly earn you 500k to 1m in a single cycle of the zone. More if you place the better pieces of what you find on the exchange.
Particle traces. Doffing. Enough said.
EXP. Battlezones. Starbase 24. Literally any STF.
The simple fact is that the old broken missions are being removed as well as an under-rewarding and tedious method of gaining crafting materials. Nothing else.
The foundry exists to offer a deeper sense of true exploration, namely that of the imagination, and yes, no matter how you argue it, that little list scroll is far closer to "exploration" than a small number of quickly generated and possibly busted missions.
For a better clarification, currently you are recieving a selection from a very limited list when you go to "explore". The foundry is a much larger and more bountiful list.
While I understand that many people would want a true "exploration" system, and I fully sympathize with that desire, we are not "losing" the ability to "explore" here.
No one can take that from us besides ourselves and we now have an encouragement to delve deeper inside what truely created Star Trek: Human imagination.
So you have poor, or simply extremely obscure, taste in content.
It's not poor or obscure. I was using the stuff in the game to play the game.
There are many far surperior and more enjoyable equivalents to it out there. Example given: Tau Dewa daily.
Tau Dewa daily is just as shallow and poor when it comes to content.
How do we know what Cryptic has planned in the future? For now yes, but who is to say what we will get later on? Wait and see. Something said in the now, or done in the now, speaks little for the future of things to come.
There is no super secret exploration revamp planned. The ONLY dev to ever talk about exploraton revamp was Stahl. He's gone.
In this dev blog they are explicit about what they're doing. The foundry is where exploration is going to be laid to rest.
Now on to the whining over crafting materials.
I don't craft.
The only thing it might effect is that you now get to go do something enjoyable while passively reaping the same rewards vs doing the same mind-numbing task all day.
They're removing what I find enjoyable.
Essentially all I got out of your post is I play the game differently than you do. And you seem to be a-OK with the developers leading the charge to stamp out different playstyles.
That's bad MMO development. I'm disappointed you can't see that. But a game company removing assets like this is a bad move. You can play the way you find things enjoyable. With your grinds and your tau dewa dailies. But me? I'm left to go find some other enjoyment.
The only good news is that Cryptic isn't the only game developer out there. In fact, they're one of many. Other companies use slightly more successful game development tactics and strategies.
I still don't understand why the following is exploration (for many of you):
Randomly enter a cluster to either scan 5/5 things, kill 5/5 things, or deliver some supplies after flying for like a minute to get to a contact spot. And it's all auto-generated and non-sensical
While this is not exploration (for many of you):
Find an exploration mission with an interesting teaser. You won't know what else to expect. It takes you to a strange new world. Beam down and explore. You find the ruins of an ancient civilization. You find clues about what happened. You solve a mystery and a puzzle that is intriguing and story-driven.
If I have to lose the random loading factor, in exchange for the 2nd scenario, I'll gladly give it up. The second scenario feels a lot more like Star Trek exploration, at least to me. The former feels like a slot machine that calls itself exploration.
Like I keep saying, it's not the missions by themselves. Of course I would like better missions in the clusters; I've been asking for them for years, but they are only half the point.
Let me try this another way. Take your standard hack and slash fantasy MMORPG. Who is the explorer? The person who sets off into the wilderness just to see what they find, or the person who picks 'mysterious lost citadel' off the PvE instanced dungeon list?
That's the problem here. I am an explorer (or so the Bartle Test keeps telling me), I want to explore. I don't explore without heading off into the unknown. Just being told that I am doing that by the script defeats the point. I have to do it myself.
I'm saying that prior, 3 cluster missions granted you 1440 dilithium once a day.
Now, 3 cluster missions will probably come pretty close to filling up your 8000k dil cap, and there is no cooldown. You can keep earning it.
Plus, you get missions that involve exploring a culture, or a planet, etc., instead of trying to find 5 alien artifacts and reading a filler story that often makes little sense.
1) Opinion, quality, functionality, implemention, and again, exploration. Please find a dictionary and reference all of the above. The missions in far too many cases fall through on quality, functionality, and implementation. They are often bugged graphically, or in terms of content, and sometimes in a nature that renders them incompletable. They do not work as intended nor provide the experience they were intended to beyond the very first time.
You can classify the entire game as "exploration", the first time you go through the content. This also applies to the missions, yes, however doing them once, negates that. You could even call glitching outside of maps "exploration", or messing with tailor options you haven't tried before, so on.
This is the same way you can define exploration as the first time you pick up a rock to see what's under it. Doing it again and again will not change what is under that rock unless someone or something puts something else under it. That has not happened in the argued case.
There is no exploration system in the sense many seem to be claiming is present. This is a simple fact.
The exploration you and many others seem to be defining is indeed far closer to the experience the foundry offers.
2) See above. Exploring the frustration of bugs and the tedium of repetition does not qualify. An exploration system by the argued definition of your case does not exist. Again, fact.
3) The clusters are no issue. The thing is nothing outside of the missions and crafting anomalies is disappearing. I have pointed out various alternatives, as well as the unlikelyhood of those constituting the core gameplay of anyone in the playerbase given the amount of other options and rewards more easily available.
4) The materials were whined over as a reason. However, again, previously stated that doffing provides a higher income without the connected tedium or on-hands involvement, unless you have a bot set up.
5) No offense, but ideas, well, they're like that thing you TRIBBLE from. Everyone has one, most of them stink, and not many people care to see someone else's. It probably has either not been looked at, or disregarded by the developers, which is their right as the game is essentially their project.
They run the ant farm. We are nothing but the ants inside of it.
6) Value applies to market rates or reasons why you would be doing these. The fact that many activities require less effort to earn more is undeniable.
Examples:
Dyson ground battlezone for dilithium, especially if you include mark and implant conversion as well. It is possible to hit refine limit in under 20 minutes even with mediocre equipment. Exploration missions require the similar amount of time for the required 3 for less than a quarter of the refine limit. Also the mission providing the dil reward is on a cooldown, the battlezone missions are as well, however you are not prevented from recieving repeated rewards for capturing points or defeating the V-rex bosses.
Undine space battlezone for EC. EC drops in the exploration missions are rubbish, where the space battlezone is a pinata of loot that can quickly earn you 500k to 1m in a single cycle of the zone. More if you place the better pieces of what you find on the exchange.
Particle traces. Doffing. Enough said.
EXP. Battlezones. Starbase 24. Literally any STF.
The simple fact is that the old broken missions are being removed as well as an under-rewarding and tedious method of gaining crafting materials. Nothing else.
The foundry exists to offer a deeper sense of true exploration, namely that of the imagination, and yes, no matter how you argue it, that little list scroll is far closer to "exploration" than a small number of quickly generated and possibly busted missions.
For a better clarification, currently you are recieving a selection from a very limited list when you go to "explore". The foundry is a much larger and more bountiful list.
While I understand that many people would want a true "exploration" system, and I fully sympathize with that desire, we are not "losing" the ability to "explore" here.
No one can take that from us besides ourselves and we now have an encouragement to delve deeper inside what truely created Star Trek: Human imagination.
1) Not a fact. An opinion. You don't think they seem like exploration. Others do. Simple as that.
2) Again, not a fact. An opinion. There are others that differ from yours.
3) Not an issue for you. They are for me.
4) Could be, but that's someone else's fight is all I'm saying.
5) Hey, you asked.
6) Value applies to lots of things; and we all have our own personal priority lists for how they compare to each other. I and others value the clusters more highly that you do, clearly, but that's all it is.
This is a clash of perspective, nothing more. The problem I'm having with many of the supporters of this move is that they keep trying to explain that we are somehow 'wrong' for being against it.
Comments
You gotta admit it's more creative than scanning 5 of 5 rocks for technobabble reasons.
No debate there.
This^^^^^
/10char
Aside from the fact that you can't actually explore the Foundry you mean? Unless you get a sense of exploration from using search engines and reading lists that is.
It is the missions and the clusters themselves together that make exploration a unique experience in STO; the missions are only half the point. The Foundry cannot even recreate the experience, and therefore cannot improve upon it. It is quite simply impossible.
People claiming they don't see why anyone should be angry about this are like crafters wondering why raiders are upset over their 60 man dungeons getting taken away because 'We could make you much better gear than ever dropped from those bosses if you just asked'.
Sorry, but 5 missions with a few randomly generated awful and out of place lines does not qualify as exploration. Nor does flying around a pointlessly small box with a few points that give you one of said 5 missions.
The current exploration system is less exciting than the thrill of "exploration" I get out of finding some loose change in the cracks of my sofa.
While I am certain that you find scanning 5 artifacts of the 7th Borg dynasty in a system they rightfully claim by ancient pretext exciting, and not in any way completely out of context with everything in Trek, those missions are absolutely awful.
As to everyone else, it's good to see we can agree on something.
Also Kirkfat, I have done a few of your foundry missions in the past I noticed, quite nice, keep up the good work.
I'll be giving the rest of yous' missions a try later on and be sure to provide a review.
What you are saying here would be a personal opinion. It is fine that you don't like the clusters. The issue is that some of us do.
If this is your biggest set of complaints, why not voice your support for something like a simple script that lets the player "Explore Delta Volanis (UGC)" and randomly runs a foundry mission that uses that door? At the end, it would ask "Keep Exploring?" And that would load a different random mission. Perhaps the thing could be fine-tuned not to give you anything below 3 stars or under 40 plays.
And with the lists, it's not exactly like you know what you're getting. Most mission descriptions would be something like this:
"A planetary survey reveals clues about an ancient civilization. What you discover may have far-reaching implications."
Or,
"The U.S.S. Tuscany hasn't reported back from its survey of Delta Volanis. We need you to find the ship and assess the situation. Set a course for Delta Volanis."
You have no idea what you'll discover until you get there to explore. And let's be honest here, your "moments" of discovery in the clusters really amount to not knowing which 5 variants of a mission will load, followed by an almost instant recognition of "OK, this is an aid the planet one," or "TRIBBLE, I have to fight too many ships in this one, so I'm leaving to find a shorter mission."
Thank you for that as well as adding to a constructive conversation.
I'd like a 'random' button for the Foundry; but as an exploration thing that would only get us halfway back to where we even started. What we'd actually need to add exploration to the Foundry would be an interface that is like the cluster maps (though, obviously, I wouldn't complain if they came up with better ones). So we have an 'exploration zone' where random Foundry missions can be found.
Even then, I'd still rather they left at least some exploration missions in just to pad out the lists; and to preserve the NPC random alien races that populate the clusters.
They'll still be there. We can make them and flesh them out. We'll explore their culture, instead of just making them ask you for stem bolts.
Unless they need Stem Bolts, right? It's not like Stem Bolts would give any given race a particular advantage over any other.
Now Warp Coils is something else altogether!
SCE ADVISORY NOTICE: Improper Impulse Engine maintenance can result in REAR THRUSTER LEAKAGE. ALWAYS have your work inspected by another qualified officer.
Well, they'd still be handy to have for reference. I mean, could you describe what a Crimto looks like? I couldn't, and I was just fighting them the other day.
Or do these races actually exist as foundry assets?
The foundry has a character creator that is pretty similar to what you use to make a toon. It's like the season 3 version of the character creator, so there are some limits to what can be made. Plus we have a costume limit of 25 costumes per mission. So, it would be tough to make a large crowd of aliens over several maps.
But there is a lot that we can do. We can create the Crinto from our imagination. Other weird aliens too. We can even reskin mobs to make squirrels try to bite you or nanoov attack with weird Devidian effects.
Please explain how it is a matter of opinion that said missions are A) outdated,
Also please explain how said missions define "exploration" when within a second of warping in you are aware exactly which pre-generated mission you have recieved and the only mystery is which (possibly inappropriate and out of place) head of the week you have to talk to/give commodities to/blow up.
I also never stated that I do not like the cluster, I do not like the outdated missions, yes, however given the plethora of undeniably far surperior quality and far more rewarding content out there, you cannot truely argue in favor of the outdated content in question, nor it's paltry payouts, which are easily topped with far less skill or effort, if you find yourself out for profit.
The other point of worry, the crafting materials, I have also pointed out that there will be no shortage of them. Previously, if you logged in just to farm particles playing that minigame repeatedly, you probably wasted a huge amount of time and I am shocked anyone would find a task that utterly mundane, repetitive, and unrewarding enjoyable for the length of time required to get any sensible amount of materials.
Unless of course you want to admit to botting said clusters for materials, in which case, shame on you, both for botting, and botting something of such low value.
Now, with a bit of re-reading, you will notice what I pointed out is that we are not actually losing anything aside from said outdated missions, and really, do you play the game just to do those? If so, why? Why spend the time on what is arguably the weakest PvE element? Why did no one ever speak up previously or show the slightest amount of care or concern for clusters aside from stating "Man, these are outdated and pretty bad.", which is the exact feedback leading to this change?
Crafting material income remains ridiculously easy with low effort, doffing remains unaffected, we gain an encouragement to explore our own minds and imaginations which are limitless.
How is any of the above line a bad thing?
I do agree with the idea of the foundry "doors" to clusters, where it would give you a random mission within certain criteria, such as above a certain rating from a certain number of players. I find that idea to be absolutely fantastic, or even just having a filter option for regions added to the foundry.
However it is essentially fact that we are losing nothing of real value.
Everything that really matters within the cluster, is staying just the way it is.
People really do this? for alien artifacts?
I disagree.
Removing working, albeit dated, game play elements is a poor move. There are people who clearly enjoy using it or no one would be saying. It's just going to upset players, some of them who spend money on the game, for no gain. So ultimately it's a net negative.
If there's a concern about the game being perceived badly for it, don't necessarily direct players there.
The system's thin, but it can be a fun diversion if you have some imagination.
It wouldn't surprise me if they did. Have you ever seen how sophisticated the mining bots were for EVE? I once visited a friend of my college room-mates that had Eve mining bots running for days at a time, easily netting them millions of isk daily.
It wouldn't surprise me. A lot of people have really poor understanding of how to make money in the game and I used to see "legit" EC earning advice about farming particle traces, which even then was terrible, slow, and not really rewarding vs rerunning certain missions to sell the loot/rewards.
Plus as said, no real reason to sit in that cluster or farm those materials given that you can go set up the scan this and that doff missions and get showered in them without having to do something that rivals watching paint dry on the fun scale.
So can't really think of why someone would argue that point unless they have some crazy (and utterly silly because low income and slow) bot farm for traces going.
OK, point by point:
1) Those bits I highlighted in yellow:
Those would be opinions. You can tell by the use of words like 'awful' and 'pointless'; and the way you claim to find rooting change out of your sofa to be more exciting.
2) Like I said before, it is the way the clusters as a whole work. The missions by themselves do not make an exploration system. A key point of an exploration system is the requirement that you go look for things of interest; not just pick them from a list of search results. That is what exploration is.
3) I suppose it's possible I have misunderstood your personal feelings on the matter, but frankly it seems unlikely given what you have been posting about this issue. If you do in fact not dislike the clusters, then I apologise for my poor choice of words.
I certainly can argue against it. Not that I wouldn't like to see it improved; but more on that in point 5.
4) A matter for others to argue. I don't care about the materials.
5) See that link in my signature? That is just one of many such threads that have come up over the years. Plenty of people have expressed care and concern about the clusters.
Nobody I know of would ever claim they represented the best PvE content the game had to offer, but it's the only exploration we have; and many of us have been hoping that this core launch feature, which is central to the very premise of Star Trek, would receive the dev attention it deserved someday. That's improvements, not removal.
The Foundry doors do nothing to make up for this. The Foundry has been there for years for anyone who wanted to use it; but people still used the clusters anyway, because we wanted to explore, and the Foundry is not exploration.
6) Of value to you.
This was the entire point. Before this, absolutely no one said "Hey, this is fun.".
Everyone said the exact opposite or just plain ignored it entirely.
Also there is no aspect of having a gold account at all that this will effect in the slightest, so that point falls through automatically.
There is simply no loss and no, this is not a poor move in any way.
Re-read what I pointed out, literally nothing is being lost aside from unarguably low grade content, which the feedback on has lead to this move.
As to a "fun diversion with a bit of imagination", sure, except there is no real imagination involved in the system, nor much to apply for more than maybe 10 minutes, made even harder by flickering backgrounds, out of place themes, so on.
On the "fun distraction" scale, it's up there with drinking listerine or popping out-of-date medication from the back of the cabinet. It might provide a "fun distraction" on some level, but it's far from good given all the other things you could be doing.
What is being removed is being removed based on negative reception and poor feedback.
What is being gained is a chance to do something better, if you're up to the challenge and not too lazy, and even then, you're free to enjoy the work of someone else.
Clusters will grant like triple the dilithium plus more, and you'll get stories that at least try to be good stories about exploration.
There are definitely people who use it and have some fun with it. If you don't, that's fine, continue to not use it.
You're pretty narrowly constraining paying customer there. Even people who buy zen are giving Perfect World money. If you lose even just one of them, that's a net loss.
You can't say "nothing is being lost" and then go on to describe what's being lost
My reply would be if you don't like it, don't use it. It's there and some people do like it. If they were replacing it with other content (pointing people at the Foundry is not replacing it) or revamping it that would be one thing, but removing it wholesale is pointless.
No. The chance (for Cryptic) to do something better exists whether it's removed or not. How about do something better to replace it, then remove it? As for players replacing it, the foundry already exists and that's a different system that doesn't create dynamic missions in any form.
I still don't understand why the following is exploration (for many of you):
Randomly enter a cluster to either scan 5/5 things, kill 5/5 things, or deliver some supplies after flying for like a minute to get to a contact spot. And it's all auto-generated and non-sensical
While this is not exploration (for many of you):
Find an exploration mission with an interesting teaser. You won't know what else to expect. It takes you to a strange new world. Beam down and explore. You find the ruins of an ancient civilization. You find clues about what happened. You solve a mystery and a puzzle that is intriguing and story-driven.
If I have to lose the random loading factor, in exchange for the 2nd scenario, I'll gladly give it up. The second scenario feels a lot more like Star Trek exploration, at least to me. The former feels like a slot machine that calls itself exploration.
Having foundry missions that grant bonus rewards requires removing clusters why exactly?
I'm saying that prior, 3 cluster missions granted you 1440 dilithium once a day.
Now, 3 cluster missions will probably come pretty close to filling up your 8000k dil cap, and there is no cooldown. You can keep earning it.
Plus, you get missions that involve exploring a culture, or a planet, etc., instead of trying to find 5 alien artifacts and reading a filler story that often makes little sense.
1) Opinion, quality, functionality, implemention, and again, exploration. Please find a dictionary and reference all of the above. The missions in far too many cases fall through on quality, functionality, and implementation. They are often bugged graphically, or in terms of content, and sometimes in a nature that renders them incompletable. They do not work as intended nor provide the experience they were intended to beyond the very first time.
You can classify the entire game as "exploration", the first time you go through the content. This also applies to the missions, yes, however doing them once, negates that. You could even call glitching outside of maps "exploration", or messing with tailor options you haven't tried before, so on.
This is the same way you can define exploration as the first time you pick up a rock to see what's under it. Doing it again and again will not change what is under that rock unless someone or something puts something else under it. That has not happened in the argued case.
There is no exploration system in the sense many seem to be claiming is present. This is a simple fact.
The exploration you and many others seem to be defining is indeed far closer to the experience the foundry offers.
2) See above. Exploring the frustration of bugs and the tedium of repetition does not qualify. An exploration system by the argued definition of your case does not exist. Again, fact.
3) The clusters are no issue. The thing is nothing outside of the missions and crafting anomalies is disappearing. I have pointed out various alternatives, as well as the unlikelyhood of those constituting the core gameplay of anyone in the playerbase given the amount of other options and rewards more easily available.
4) The materials were whined over as a reason. However, again, previously stated that doffing provides a higher income without the connected tedium or on-hands involvement, unless you have a bot set up.
5) No offense, but ideas, well, they're like that thing you TRIBBLE from. Everyone has one, most of them stink, and not many people care to see someone else's. It probably has either not been looked at, or disregarded by the developers, which is their right as the game is essentially their project.
They run the ant farm. We are nothing but the ants inside of it.
6) Value applies to market rates or reasons why you would be doing these. The fact that many activities require less effort to earn more is undeniable.
Examples:
Dyson ground battlezone for dilithium, especially if you include mark and implant conversion as well. It is possible to hit refine limit in under 20 minutes even with mediocre equipment. Exploration missions require the similar amount of time for the required 3 for less than a quarter of the refine limit. Also the mission providing the dil reward is on a cooldown, the battlezone missions are as well, however you are not prevented from recieving repeated rewards for capturing points or defeating the V-rex bosses.
Undine space battlezone for EC. EC drops in the exploration missions are rubbish, where the space battlezone is a pinata of loot that can quickly earn you 500k to 1m in a single cycle of the zone. More if you place the better pieces of what you find on the exchange.
Particle traces. Doffing. Enough said.
EXP. Battlezones. Starbase 24. Literally any STF.
The simple fact is that the old broken missions are being removed as well as an under-rewarding and tedious method of gaining crafting materials. Nothing else.
The foundry exists to offer a deeper sense of true exploration, namely that of the imagination, and yes, no matter how you argue it, that little list scroll is far closer to "exploration" than a small number of quickly generated and possibly busted missions.
For a better clarification, currently you are recieving a selection from a very limited list when you go to "explore". The foundry is a much larger and more bountiful list.
While I understand that many people would want a true "exploration" system, and I fully sympathize with that desire, we are not "losing" the ability to "explore" here.
No one can take that from us besides ourselves and we now have an encouragement to delve deeper inside what truely created Star Trek: Human imagination.
It's not poor or obscure. I was using the stuff in the game to play the game.
Tau Dewa daily is just as shallow and poor when it comes to content.
There is no super secret exploration revamp planned. The ONLY dev to ever talk about exploraton revamp was Stahl. He's gone.
In this dev blog they are explicit about what they're doing. The foundry is where exploration is going to be laid to rest.
I don't craft.
They're removing what I find enjoyable.
Essentially all I got out of your post is I play the game differently than you do. And you seem to be a-OK with the developers leading the charge to stamp out different playstyles.
That's bad MMO development. I'm disappointed you can't see that. But a game company removing assets like this is a bad move. You can play the way you find things enjoyable. With your grinds and your tau dewa dailies. But me? I'm left to go find some other enjoyment.
The only good news is that Cryptic isn't the only game developer out there. In fact, they're one of many. Other companies use slightly more successful game development tactics and strategies.
Like I keep saying, it's not the missions by themselves. Of course I would like better missions in the clusters; I've been asking for them for years, but they are only half the point.
Let me try this another way. Take your standard hack and slash fantasy MMORPG. Who is the explorer? The person who sets off into the wilderness just to see what they find, or the person who picks 'mysterious lost citadel' off the PvE instanced dungeon list?
That's the problem here. I am an explorer (or so the Bartle Test keeps telling me), I want to explore. I don't explore without heading off into the unknown. Just being told that I am doing that by the script defeats the point. I have to do it myself.
It's not about the rewards.
1) Not a fact. An opinion. You don't think they seem like exploration. Others do. Simple as that.
2) Again, not a fact. An opinion. There are others that differ from yours.
3) Not an issue for you. They are for me.
4) Could be, but that's someone else's fight is all I'm saying.
5) Hey, you asked.
6) Value applies to lots of things; and we all have our own personal priority lists for how they compare to each other. I and others value the clusters more highly that you do, clearly, but that's all it is.
This is a clash of perspective, nothing more. The problem I'm having with many of the supporters of this move is that they keep trying to explain that we are somehow 'wrong' for being against it.