Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I'm gonna have to say something in this thread and I won't be popular for it, but you guys who say this console is OP need to go learn how to overcome issues. I am sick to the back teeth of everyone's response to anything that interfere's with their little utopia of being able to be better than everyone else being to nerf everything in sight.
Hasn't it dawned on anyone that you can't heal with this console unless you're actually able to hit anything? And as much as I find it amazing I actually agree with Porchsong on page 5, not that I often agree with him on anything, who shows proof of the console being overcome and my own experience says the same.
So as usual it is a case of crying over your precious little builds being made less good because of newer stuff, adapt to it and get used to it, because you few ruin the game for the rest of us.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I'm gonna have to say something in this thread and I won't be popular for it, but you guys who say this console is OP need to go learn how to overcome issues. I am sick to the back teeth of everyone's response to anything that interfere's with their little utopia of being
able to be better than everyone else being to nerf everything in sight.
Hasn't it dawned on anyone that you can't heal with this console unless you're actually able to hit anything? And as much as I find it amazing I actually agree with Porchsong on page 5, not that I often agree with him on anything, who shows proof of the console being overcome and my own experience says the same.
So as usual it is a case of crying over your precious little builds being made less good because of newer stuff, adapt to it and get used to it, because you few ruin the game for the rest of us.
Missed the point entirely, I see...
Its not a case of overcoming to adapt but to bring something out of ordinary back into acceptable limits.
The whole "you need to be shooting for it to work" argument...that is the single, most unintelligent "point" made for the console remaining untouched.
Of course a damage dealer in a dps match will be trying to shoot down a target...
Do you mean, you cant shoot when disabled? I cant say ive been disabled for an entire match....maybe top pvp is just that much different.
Edit: btw, did you know weapons can't do damage unless their shooting and that weapon enhancing boff abilities are just as useless?
Missed the point entirely, I see...unless its a ruse to try and not to get your toy nerfed
Considering I gave you sound advice for something different a while back and you were too stubborn to accept it I find that rather naff, I have no agenda other than to see things done right, and this thread stinks of the opposite.
Its not a case of overcoming to adapt but to bring something out of ordinary back into acceptable limits.
Well that isn't the case from what I'm reading, it's thinly veiled if not outright whining about something not helping you kill other people.
The whole "you need to be shooting for it to work" argument...that is the single, most unintelligent "point" made for the console remaining untouched.
Why? Because you don't like the fact I'm arguing against you or because you have a valid argument? Because I'm waiting to see one.
Of course a damage dealer in a dps match will be trying to shoot down a target...
Do you mean, you cant shoot when disabled? I cant say ive been disabled for an entire match....maybe top pvp is just that much different.
Well obviously they're trying to kill someone, that's the point. But if you call this a valid argument it isn't. If I have a high defence value/lots of shield by-passing stuff/I disable your weapons/whatever else I could list then I have plenty of ways past it. Of course you're not going to be disabled for the entire match, but you need to understand that if I want you to not be able to use your weapons that's hardly an issue for me to make that happen.
My answer is in red, take it as you inevitably will.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
Tarastheslayers argument is perfectly valid. First off the console only heals shields, so you beat the TRIBBLE out of a targets hull with DoT's and its going to die but that means keeping up a constant barrage against a target which is something that a select group of players seem in capable of doing!. Secondly if you take a targets weapons off line or reduce its power levels enough then the console is all but useless. But I guess that means thinking out side the box a little when putting together ship builds.
I've got a fairly survivable DD that runs it as well as Scimitar that turns out around 14k that both run the the valdore console and even in PvE its still possible to get killed. All it takes is a well placed shot or enough DoT's.
And I can confirm from first hand experience that my DD was reduced to a floating wreck by Tarastheslayer. Not because he's a better PvPer than me but because he has the intelligence to adapt to counter what I was throwing at him. Granted he may not hit 10k+ Dps but with some of his builds its not needed.
But yeah what do we know? One of the things we do know is that you don't have to be the king of DPS to do well in this game.
And as Tarastheslayer also comment about him being in agreement with Porchsong on page 5 I too am in agreement with him its the same cry from the same small group of people "NERF THIS, NERF THAT" instead of running and crying to cryptic. why not for once in your lives open your eyes pull your brain cases out of a certain part of the human anatomy open your eyes and think for yourselves for once? And for one brief moment let your self be open to new ideas that obviously up until now have eluded you.
The console is fine as it is it doesn't need nerfing, it does exactly what it says in its description.
And all those that are throwing their rattles and teddy bears out of the pram trying to get it changed need to go and learn to play the game again.
1. Sorry, what was this? If the advice was solid I'm sure I would've considered it at least
2. Sorry that it comes off that way. It really is a case of getting the devs to look at a powerful, if not broken console. It is not broken to the point of making the owner invincible but it is providing a chance for a way over the top heal.
3. No, it's unintelligent because your trying to shoot to kill anyways. If your taking out peeps without energy weapons, that's pretty impressive.
4. By this point(i noticed you didn't snag my edit, so I'll reiterate) why use any weapons at all?
1. Sorry, what was this? If the advice was solid I'm sure I would've considered it at least
2. Sorry that it comes off that way. It really is a case of getting the devs to look at a powerful, if not broken console. It is not broken to the point of making the owner invincible but it is providing a chance for a way over the top heal.
3. No, it's unintelligent because your trying to shoot to kill anyways. If your taking out peeps without energy weapons, that's pretty impressive.
4. By this point(i noticed you didn't snag my edit, so I'll reiterate) why use any weapons at all?
Anyways, what was that advice you gave me before?
I don't suppose you remember but my mate and I two manned KAGE and you asked how we did it, and with my list of gear you asked for plus my heavy emphasis on teamwork apparently didn't sit well with you. I emphasised teamwork because that's the one defining factor of what allowed us to do it. We have since improved on it.
I don't entirely understand your third point, I'm not saying taking out peeps without energy weapons but I am saying using unorthodox tactics to get around the valdore and healing/fighting back generally.
Because you need weapons to proc the valdore console, without that it's nothing but a picture in your console tray. Maybe I miss understand your meaning on that phrase but if you can't use your weapons or your shields are compromised what good is the console?
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
Btw. Why result to calling the people that want a nerf/or at least a looking into, whiners (and the like?)?
Anyways, I can see why some people who use the console wouldn't want a nerf. It's pretty damn good as is.
Hell, we should start calling it a crutch like a2b. Ya, I just said that...and that is exactly what it is.
But I digress...console has too much potential for a freebie full shield heal, needs some tweaking. In line with the solanae sister proc would do the trick
It really is a case of getting the devs to look at a powerful, if not broken console.
How is it broken? It has a 2.5% change to add shield hit points equivalent to 200% of the damage inflicted by a particular energy strike! Its doing exactly what it designed to. If its the hands of some one capable of doing high dps then the buff from it is going to be high. But I don't hear any one pushing for hard cap on dps.
And who mentioned A2B? I've tried it once or twice, couldn't get it to work for me. So I've found other ways to work around. You guys need to do the same with the Valdore console. And if you cant work it out then maybe its time you went and played something else.
But I don't hear any one pushing for hard cap on dps.
I had to do a double take on that. I couldn't even begin to guess how many times that's been brought up in both PvE and PvP threads. Admittedly they end up being trolled extremely hard so they might be closed...but it's definitely something that comes up with the ludicrous amount of buff and debuff stacking in the game.
Btw. Why result to calling the people that want a nerf/or at least a looking into, whiners (and the like?)?
Anyways, I can see why some people who use the console wouldn't want a nerf. It's pretty damn good as is.
Hell, we should start calling it a crutch like a2b. Ya, I just said that...and that is exactly what it is.
But I digress...console has too much potential for a freebie full shield heal, needs some tweaking. In line with the solanae sister proc would do the trick
Because so few people do proper testing, and the OP in this thread used parses from scimi's that would obviously do high numbers, what about numbers split up according to PvP, PvE build types and representative of comparisons at all levels of the game? Suddenly it's not a fair examination any more. That's why I call them whiners, because it's usually the case that no one calls for a nerf unless they have their own agenda.
I've called for nerfs on tribble with proper supporting evidence when it was warranted, as hard as that is to do on tribble, I've also called for buffs, like the new Undine Ground Traits or the Counter-Command rep gun.
And Aux2Batt should be nerfed, it does the job of almost half the other duty officers, though given a lot of them came after that was released but that's a topic for another day.
I stick by my points, I've also yet to see anything to refute them.
@virusdancer, I've not seen many on that topic myself so they probably are locked, but it is still fair to say that it isn't as visible an argument as something like this is.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
Because so few people do proper testing, and the OP in this thread used parses from scimi's that would obviously do high numbers, what about numbers split up according to PvP, PvE build types and representative of comparisons at all levels of the game? Suddenly it's not a fair examination any more. That's why I call them whiners, because it's usually the case that no one calls for a nerf unless they have their own agenda.
The OP isn't just looking at a single match, but at data of a couple thousand aggregated and normalized matches.
Do you really consider having a single console replace nearly every shield heal on your ship ballanced? This console doesn't even proc per firing cycle, but per shot, with no internal cd. That means, that with a 8 weapon slot on your ship you basically have a 44% chance to get a full shield heal every 5 seconds, given that raw damage is factored into the calculation. So you basically get a free full shield heal every 10 seconds on average. And you heal more, the more you do damage, given a certain dps threshold you will simply always fully heal your shields when the console procs.
Sorry, but this is simply about cost of opportunity. Other ships have to sacrifice valuable BO slots to even achieve a moderate amount of healing, while with this console the monster dps-tank has come true, at the cost of one measly console slot.
The 1337 vapers whines, and thus the nerfbat comes down on the 99%. We saw it happen to sensor assault and rest of rep powers. We saw it happen to assimilated set. The 1337 vaper's need for easy kills outweight the need of the many. The only fix sto needs is removing pvp from the game.;)
I had to do a double take on that. I couldn't even begin to guess how many times that's been brought up in both PvE and PvP threads. Admittedly they end up being trolled extremely hard so they might be closed...but it's definitely something that comes up with the ludicrous amount of buff and debuff stacking in the game.
I remember as well
hardcapping dps to 5k would be about right for PvE
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The 1337 vapers whines, and thus the nerfbat comes down on the 99%. We saw it happen to sensor assault and rest of rep powers. We saw it happen to assimilated set. The 1337 vaper's need for easy kills outweight the need of the many. The only fix sto needs is removing pvp from the game.;)
sensor assault never worked in pve, not once. The new version is way better...
How is it broken? It has a 2.5% change to add shield hit points equivalent to 200% of the damage inflicted by a particular energy strike! Its doing exactly what it designed to. If its the hands of some one capable of doing high dps then the buff from it is going to be high. But I don't hear any one pushing for hard cap on dps.
And who mentioned A2B? I've tried it once or twice, couldn't get it to work for me. So I've found other ways to work around. You guys need to do the same with the Valdore console. And if you cant work it out then maybe its time you went and played something else.
I rember whiner klingons saying the same thing bout the plasmonic leach...they wanted to keep it to there faction knowing it was the most powerful console in the game
The Valdor console is just as powerful as the plasmonic leach was in power levels ...the valdore is just as powerful in defense.. I know i run it on all of my romulan ships .. it makes my Tac Romulan ships into engineering Tank ships
I also see romulans crying and whining about the possibility of losing a unearned advantage given to there faction.............just like those older klingon whiners cried about the plasmonic leach
Need some tissue's
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I dont understand why you used some of the top damage dealers as your examples as MANY players including myself have the console too.
Is this really a nerf romulan tacs thread disguised as a healing thread as I am hearing calls for that. As A tac we went through all the screaming about BO double tap and that's how we were insta vapeing peple now that has been removed and we STILL insta vape people. But because the said problem to us vapeing hasn't fixed the vapeing problem it is now we can out heal people so that must be the problem ?
Like I said I use the valdore console and yes I can and do vape people but I also get vaped and beat down regularly too. The console is good I will agree on that but over powered I have to say no. You must remeber the 3 examples you showed feel a lot of love in the PvP community in the form of people trying to kill them i.e focused fire, so their consoles will be procing like mad giving these high numbers.
A balanced view from a range of players would be more appropriate before you all start screaming NERF it coz it must be why we are inadequate !
The OP isn't just looking at a single match, but at data of a couple thousand aggregated and normalized matches.
Do you really consider having a single console replace nearly every shield heal on your ship ballanced? This console doesn't even proc per firing cycle, but per shot, with no internal cd. That means, that with a 8 weapon slot on your ship you basically have a 44% chance to get a full shield heal every 5 seconds, given that raw damage is factored into the calculation. So you basically get a free full shield heal every 10 seconds on average. And you heal more, the more you do damage, given a certain dps threshold you will simply always fully heal your shields when the console procs.
Sorry, but this is simply about cost of opportunity. Other ships have to sacrifice valuable BO slots to even achieve a moderate amount of healing, while with this console the monster dps-tank has come true, at the cost of one measly console slot.
Thank you for an actual point freenos.
Firstly I realise that, but as I say it isn't broken down into types of ships, so we don't really know if this is skewed by a load of high dps tac ships or not. My issue with the numbers is one of a lack of truth as to where it came from. Also, if the shield is healing when shields are full and still counts it on a parse then that is obviously skewing them too as for that moment there is no benefit to the proc at all.
One thing you do make a good point about is the proc rate, but might I also point out it has a similar rate of proc to most innate weapon procs? So basically you have similar odds to this console procing as I do to having my polarons proc and shut your shields off for example. Overly simplified example but point is there.
Also considering how OP this console is supposed to be it still never ceases to amaze me how many scimi's and other rom ships I see get wiped in STF's (not just Borg ones) that are running the console, and not through a lack of effort on their part.
I'm basically saying I'm having a very hard time believing this console is as OP as everyone claims it to be. Obviously it shouldn't count heals from it when the shields are full, but that could be fixed without nerfing the console.
I rember whiner klingons saying the same thing bout the plasmonic leach...they wanted to keep it to there faction knowing it was the most powerful console in the game
The Valdor console is just as powerful as the plasmonic leach was in power levels ...the valdore is just as powerful in defense.. I know i run it on all of my romulan ships .. it makes my Tac Romulan ships into engineering Tank ships
I also see romulans crying and whining about the possibility of losing a unearned advantage given to there faction.............just like those older klingon whiners cried about the plasmonic leach
Need some tissue's
They should never have swapped consoles in the first place to be honest, the factions are barely different as it is without swapping around what little unique gear they have. Shame really.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I rember whiner klingons saying the same thing bout the plasmonic leach...they wanted to keep it to there faction knowing it was the most powerful console in the game
The Valdor console is just as powerful as the plasmonic leach was in power levels ...the valdore is just as powerful in defense.. I know i run it on all of my romulan ships .. it makes my Tac Romulan ships into engineering Tank ships
I also see romulans crying and whining about the possibility of losing a unearned advantage given to there faction.............just like those older klingon whiners cried about the plasmonic leach
Need some tissue's
Context is of the essence here.
Back in the day there was no adapted honor guard shield for KDF. So Feds had maco shields, and KDF had leech. People did not want the leech to go to the feds for factional uniqueness, if it needed fine tuning back then compared to the maco shield proc that's what many palyers were in favor of. Of course this was before [AMP] warp cores.
The only thing that comes close to the Valdore console is Dyson and ADapted 4(set) bonus. Compared to these you have a huge opportunity cost with the set items, whereas Valdor simply does too much at too little cost.
In both cases, the choice between offense and defense has been removed. Maybe cryptic in its infinite wisdom notices that this is poor design.
I'm wondering....is this the author of the Hilbert guide? if so...i can't believe people are questioning his data or motives.
The thread starter is the one from the Hilbert guide, yes.
That doesn't mean you can't question the data, because mancom is forced to use the data the client gives us, and if that data is questionable, any conclusions may be, too. But you have to make that point.
But questioning hilbert's motives... That should indeed be right out. (But even if it wasn't him, that's always dangerous, since you can't see inside people's head. You can only read their arguments and try to see if they make sense.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Firstly I realise that, but as I say it isn't broken down into types of ships, so we don't really know if this is skewed by a load of high dps tac ships or not. My issue with the numbers is one of a lack of truth as to where it came from. Also, if the shield is healing when shields are full and still counts it on a parse then that is obviously skewing them too as for that moment there is no benefit to the proc at all.
Even if it is skewed, why are high dps tac ships allowed to get such an advantage out of that console? Just cap the thing. Allow for it to heal at the same rate, but cap the max heal you can get. None-dps ships won't know a difference and high-dps ships won't be able to abuse it.
As to where the numbers come from. Simple, everyone who has his combatlogs uploaded to hilbert's site will be recorded. That means, that the console has to compete against dedicated healer builds, that heavily invest into boosting their healing abilities (via consoles and cd reduction). But even in this context the valdore reigns supreme.
As to when you full shields are healed: I can guaranty you, that if you are firing in pvp, you are always being fired at. So your shields will never be full.
Another thing with this console, as i have already mentioned, is that it seems to take your raw damage into the calculation. That's more a pvp problem, because resists are much higher in pvp meaning that your damage after resists is a lot lower than in pve. So you basically always heal for the same amount in pve and pvp, which is a good thing for general balance, but not for these specific realms of the game.
One thing you do make a good point about is the proc rate, but might I also point out it has a similar rate of proc to most innate weapon procs? So basically you have similar odds to this console procing as I do to having my polarons proc and shut your shields off for example. Overly simplified example but point is there.
No, normal weapon procs are per firing cycle, that would mean, that your polaron proc (basing this on 8 beam arrays) would have a chance of around 18% to proc, when every array on your ship started firing. That's per every 5 seconds (which is not fully true, because only a certain amount of weapons can fire at the same time).
And that's basically it. The fact that the weapon bases its healing on raw damage and the per shot proc chance make it into a very unbalanced piece of equipment. For these high dps scimitars in the OP, this basically translates into a console that regenerates 1300-1500 shields per facing, per second.
Also considering how OP this console is supposed to be it still never ceases to amaze me how many scimi's and other rom ships I see get wiped in STF's (not just Borg ones) that are running the console, and not through a lack of effort on their part.
There are always bad players out there, this doesn't mean that good players can't "exploit" a certain mechanic. Nerf it the right way and lower end players aren't affected.
I'm wondering....is this the author of the Hilbert guide? if so...i can't believe people are questioning his data or motives.
But was done a lot better and I can relate to it then.
God forbid we ever let someone do whatever they want just because they wrote something. I'm not being sarky, but no matter who someone is it doesn't put them above the given norms when it comes to critiquing their work, that's a dangerous place to go and and is actually not too dissimilar a point to how tribble works in a number of ways at present.
Even if it is skewed, why are high dps tac ships allowed to get such an advantage out of that console? Just cap the thing. Allow for it to heal at the same rate, but cap the max heal you can get. None-dps ships won't know a difference and high-dps ships won't be able to abuse it.
As to where the numbers come from. Simple, everyone who has his combatlogs uploaded to hilbert's site will be recorded. That means, that the console has to compete against dedicated healer builds, that heavily invest into boosting their healing abilities (via consoles and cd reduction). But even in this context the valdore reigns supreme.
As to when you full shields are healed: I can guaranty you, that if you are firing in pvp, you are always being fired at. So your shields will never be full.
Another thing with this console, as i have already mentioned, is that it seems to take your raw damage into the calculation. That's more a pvp problem, because resists are much higher in pvp meaning that your damage after resists is a lot lower than in pve. So you basically always heal for the same amount in pve and pvp, which is a good thing for general balance, but not for these specific realms of the game.
No, normal weapon procs are per firing cycle, that would mean, that your poloron proc (basing this on 8 beam arrays) would have a chance of around 18% to proc, when every array on your ship started firing. That's per every 5 seconds (which is not fully true, because only a certain amount of weapons can fire at the same time).
And that's basically it. The fact that the weapon bases its healing on raw damage and the per shot proc chance make it into a very unbalanced piece of equipment. For these high dps scimitars in the OP, this basically translates into a console that regenerates 1300-1500 shields per facing, per second.
There are always bad players out there, this doesn't mean that good players can't "exploit" a certain mechanic. Nerf it the right way and lower end players aren't affected.
There is an issue however, that I would put to you that those who run the combatlogs are generally from the dps channels or something similar on the whole? Which I would say is safe to assume, so if you then take the words from a most the dps people I've encountered that say they only run with other dpser's if possible because they'd "die in a pug" as a few have put it, then it implies that most of the parses contain very high dps numbers. I'm not saying they're void of more normal parses, but they are likely biased.
Now like you say, if it is mostly tac officers in tactically orientated ships that are getting this benefit then of course that should be normalised, though if you are right about the polaron part of my last answer (I'm going to assume you are, so thanks for the correction) then maybe all that needs to happen is to make it chance higher (3% maybe?) and do it per cycle per weapon. I think giving it a cap or a limit like locking out for x number of seconds before it has the potential to proc again is ludicrous. But like I said, I have issue with where the numbers came from so I'm not happy that they're a fair representation of the community as a whole.
You did use a phrase there though that actually makes me feel a bit more hopeful about this discussion which was "Nerf it the right way and lower end players aren't affected." Now obviously this is almost the premise of the problem we all have with most the pro-nerfers in the thread, which is that what has been said (or has been implied, the result is the same) is to nerf the thing to the point it's worthless. A console has to have an appreciated impact on how a build works, if it doesn't do that it fails the basic test of a console. It has to be better than average to make it worthwhile essentially. Overpowered? No, but it has to be something special to make it worth having.
The other thing is there is a factor about this console that has been overlooked, which is that a console like that is perfect to encourage the less 'pro' players to build a good ship, as this console heals better with higher damage output it does encourage people to improve their builds if it isn't working as well for them, and that's a good thing.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
There is an issue however, that I would put to you that those who run the combatlogs are generally from the dps channels or something similar on the whole? Which I would say is safe to assume, so if you then take the words from a most the dps people I've encountered that say they only run with other dpser's if possible because they'd "die in a pug" as a few have put it, then it implies that most of the parses contain very high dps numbers. I'm not saying they're void of more normal parses, but they are likely biased.
Even eng and sci captains can get high damage results using faw spam. It's just easier for tac, basically because of attack pattern alpha. But that's an entirely different issue (too high possible dps, as in mechanic and challenge breaking). It's not like only the one submitting the combatlog is included in it. Only one person in a match needs to submit it for every other person to be included in the evaluation. That could be anyone. That's why their might be a slight skew there, but i'd wager it not to be too big.
Now like you say, if it is mostly tac officers in tactically orientated ships that are getting this benefit then of course that should be normalised, though if you are right about the polaron part of my last answer (I'm going to assume you are, so thanks for the correction) then maybe all that needs to happen is to make it chance higher (3% maybe?) and do it per cycle per weapon. I think giving it a cap or a limit like locking out for x number of seconds before it has the potential to proc again is ludicrous. But like I said, I have issue with where the numbers came from so I'm not happy that they're a fair representation of the community as a whole.
No, you can't make the proc per firing cycle, because you it needs a damage value in it's calculation. I has to be per shot, at least as far as systems are concerned right now and the steps the system takes to calculate damage and proc effects. The lockout would harm everybody, i agree, but a cap would do nothing for lower end captains.
In case of a cap a 100% accurate representation of the whole community doesn't even matter, because a cap would just influence these outliers on the upper end.
You did use a phrase there though that actually makes me feel a bit more hopeful about this discussion which was "Nerf it the right way and lower end players aren't affected." Now obviously this is almost the premise of the problem we all have with most the pro-nerfers in the thread, which is that what has been said (or has been implied, the result is the same) is to nerf the thing to the point it's worthless. A console has to have an appreciated impact on how a build works, if it doesn't do that it fails the basic test of a console. It has to be better than average to make it worthwhile essentially. Overpowered? No, but it has to be something special to make it worth having.
That's a very generalistic approach. A console doesn't have to be universally good in every situation. Take the isometric charge for example. Not good against a single target, but only against multiple and even more so if you specced into the right skills. There are consoles, that are somewhat universally good (like +crth and crtd ones), but these are at least somewhat ballanced against each other.
The other thing is there is a factor about this console that has been overlooked, which is that a console like that is perfect to encourage the less 'pro' players to build a good ship, as this console heals better with higher damage output it does encourage people to improve their builds if it isn't working as well for them, and that's a good thing.
On the other hand, you could also teach these players about healing abilities, and that they have to make some sacrifices to actually do damage and not die in a sec when in combat. You really don't need a console for that, because players will always strife to do more dps anyway.
The premise here isn't that the player wants to do more healing, so he realizes that the consoles delivers that and has a sccaling damage requirement. No, players want to do damage and this console allow for that, but additionally allows you to refrain from using a lot of healing abilities. Healing abilities other captains in other factions have to slot and to even closely achieve this kind of healing. It's simple cost of opportunity here.
I'm wondering....is this the author of the Hilbert guide? if so...i can't believe people are questioning his data or motives.
Because everything at some point needs to be questioned. Just out of curiosity if the Hilbert guide was/is so god damn perfect why hasn't it be recoded to take carrier pets into account?
And why would a certain player or small group of players feel the need to go back to the drawing board and rewrite a completely new parser? I.E. the Combat Log Reader?
Even eng and sci captains can get high damage results using faw spam. It's just easier for tac, basically because of attack pattern alpha. But that's an entirely different issue (too high possible dps, as in mechanic and challenge breaking). It's not like only the one submitting the combatlog is included in it. Only one person in a match needs to submit it for every other person to be included in the evaluation. That could be anyone. That's why their might be a slight skew there, but i'd wager it not to be too big.
I do realise it includes the entire team, that's what I was basing my point on as those people only run with other dps people the majority of the time, so the odds of them running with others who aren't are less and therefore skews the results. And sure Eng and Sci can do well, but in those fast dps runs APA III is going to skew the results immensely.
No, you can't make the proc per firing cycle, because you it needs a damage value in it's calculation. I has to be per shot, at least as far as systems are concerned right now and the steps the system takes to calculate damage and proc effects. The lockout would harm everybody, i agree, but a cap would do nothing for lower end captains.
In case of a cap a 100% accurate representation of the whole community doesn't even matter, because a cap would just influence these outliers on the upper end.
I don't see a reason it can't take a damage value on the cycle, it could just do it based on the highest or lowest in the cycle once the cycle is complete, for example. The problem with a cap though is what do you cap it at? 1000 per facing, 4000? Obviously a Sci ship has massive shield capacity compared to an escort type ship for example, yet how long before the shield depletes again? I know what your trying to say I think but a reasonable cap is very hard to define.
That's a very generalistic approach. A console doesn't have to be universally good in every situation. Take the isometric charge for example. Not good against a single target, but only against multiple and even more so if you specced into the right skills. There are consoles, that are somewhat universally good (like +crth and crtd ones), but these are at least somewhat ballanced against each other.
That's not what I meant, I didn't mean in every case, but when it is useful you need to appreciate it, obviously a torp boat would get absolutely no use from the Valdore Console what so ever, for example.
On the other hand, you could also teach these players about healing abilities, and that they have to make some sacrifices to actually do damage and not die in a sec when in combat. You really don't need a console for that, because players will always strife to do more dps anyway.
The premise here isn't that the player wants to do more healing, so he realizes that the consoles delivers that and has a sccaling damage requirement. No, players want to do damage and this console allow for that, but additionally allows you to refrain from using a lot of healing abilities. Healing abilities other captains in other factions have to slot and to even closely achieve this kind of healing. It's simple cost of opportunity here.
However isn't this almost one of the benefits of a console, that it can potentially replace something or do the job of something else so you can free space up for other things? Of course it shouldn't do an entire job by itself, but then it has to be powerful enough to make a difference to your build.
Responses are in blue, just felt easier to do the response that way.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I rember whiner klingons saying the same thing bout the plasmonic leach...they wanted to keep it to there faction knowing it was the most powerful console in the game Need some tissue's
First off I never complained about plasmonic leech, but it was one of few useful consoles that the KDF had access too. Secondly Sarcasm aside what I'd really like is for someone to take the nerf bat to every PvP vaping build in the game. So I can stand there whilst you all cry over it. while stating that Karma's a *****! but hey that's just me.
But no doubt that sooner or later the Dev's will pander to your cries for it to be nerf'd
Comments
Romulans didn't produce it. Cryptic did. :rolleyes:
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Hasn't it dawned on anyone that you can't heal with this console unless you're actually able to hit anything? And as much as I find it amazing I actually agree with Porchsong on page 5, not that I often agree with him on anything, who shows proof of the console being overcome and my own experience says the same.
So as usual it is a case of crying over your precious little builds being made less good because of newer stuff, adapt to it and get used to it, because you few ruin the game for the rest of us.
Missed the point entirely, I see...
Its not a case of overcoming to adapt but to bring something out of ordinary back into acceptable limits.
The whole "you need to be shooting for it to work" argument...that is the single, most unintelligent "point" made for the console remaining untouched.
Of course a damage dealer in a dps match will be trying to shoot down a target...
Do you mean, you cant shoot when disabled? I cant say ive been disabled for an entire match....maybe top pvp is just that much different.
Edit: btw, did you know weapons can't do damage unless their shooting and that weapon enhancing boff abilities are just as useless?
Cmon bro, that isn't an argument at all
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
My answer is in red, take it as you inevitably will.
I've got a fairly survivable DD that runs it as well as Scimitar that turns out around 14k that both run the the valdore console and even in PvE its still possible to get killed. All it takes is a well placed shot or enough DoT's.
And I can confirm from first hand experience that my DD was reduced to a floating wreck by Tarastheslayer. Not because he's a better PvPer than me but because he has the intelligence to adapt to counter what I was throwing at him. Granted he may not hit 10k+ Dps but with some of his builds its not needed.
But yeah what do we know? One of the things we do know is that you don't have to be the king of DPS to do well in this game.
And as Tarastheslayer also comment about him being in agreement with Porchsong on page 5 I too am in agreement with him its the same cry from the same small group of people "NERF THIS, NERF THAT" instead of running and crying to cryptic. why not for once in your lives open your eyes pull your brain cases out of a certain part of the human anatomy open your eyes and think for yourselves for once? And for one brief moment let your self be open to new ideas that obviously up until now have eluded you.
The console is fine as it is it doesn't need nerfing, it does exactly what it says in its description.
And all those that are throwing their rattles and teddy bears out of the pram trying to get it changed need to go and learn to play the game again.
2. Sorry that it comes off that way. It really is a case of getting the devs to look at a powerful, if not broken console. It is not broken to the point of making the owner invincible but it is providing a chance for a way over the top heal.
3. No, it's unintelligent because your trying to shoot to kill anyways. If your taking out peeps without energy weapons, that's pretty impressive.
4. By this point(i noticed you didn't snag my edit, so I'll reiterate) why use any weapons at all?
Anyways, what was that advice you gave me before?
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
I don't suppose you remember but my mate and I two manned KAGE and you asked how we did it, and with my list of gear you asked for plus my heavy emphasis on teamwork apparently didn't sit well with you. I emphasised teamwork because that's the one defining factor of what allowed us to do it. We have since improved on it.
I don't entirely understand your third point, I'm not saying taking out peeps without energy weapons but I am saying using unorthodox tactics to get around the valdore and healing/fighting back generally.
Because you need weapons to proc the valdore console, without that it's nothing but a picture in your console tray. Maybe I miss understand your meaning on that phrase but if you can't use your weapons or your shields are compromised what good is the console?
Anyways, I can see why some people who use the console wouldn't want a nerf. It's pretty damn good as is.
Hell, we should start calling it a crutch like a2b. Ya, I just said that...and that is exactly what it is.
But I digress...console has too much potential for a freebie full shield heal, needs some tweaking. In line with the solanae sister proc would do the trick
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
How is it broken? It has a 2.5% change to add shield hit points equivalent to 200% of the damage inflicted by a particular energy strike! Its doing exactly what it designed to. If its the hands of some one capable of doing high dps then the buff from it is going to be high. But I don't hear any one pushing for hard cap on dps.
And who mentioned A2B? I've tried it once or twice, couldn't get it to work for me. So I've found other ways to work around. You guys need to do the same with the Valdore console. And if you cant work it out then maybe its time you went and played something else.
I had to do a double take on that. I couldn't even begin to guess how many times that's been brought up in both PvE and PvP threads. Admittedly they end up being trolled extremely hard so they might be closed...but it's definitely something that comes up with the ludicrous amount of buff and debuff stacking in the game.
Because so few people do proper testing, and the OP in this thread used parses from scimi's that would obviously do high numbers, what about numbers split up according to PvP, PvE build types and representative of comparisons at all levels of the game? Suddenly it's not a fair examination any more. That's why I call them whiners, because it's usually the case that no one calls for a nerf unless they have their own agenda.
I've called for nerfs on tribble with proper supporting evidence when it was warranted, as hard as that is to do on tribble, I've also called for buffs, like the new Undine Ground Traits or the Counter-Command rep gun.
And Aux2Batt should be nerfed, it does the job of almost half the other duty officers, though given a lot of them came after that was released but that's a topic for another day.
I stick by my points, I've also yet to see anything to refute them.
@virusdancer, I've not seen many on that topic myself so they probably are locked, but it is still fair to say that it isn't as visible an argument as something like this is.
I'll leave it at that...
Edit: avoiding a flame war...hopefully the edit was in time
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
The OP isn't just looking at a single match, but at data of a couple thousand aggregated and normalized matches.
Do you really consider having a single console replace nearly every shield heal on your ship ballanced? This console doesn't even proc per firing cycle, but per shot, with no internal cd. That means, that with a 8 weapon slot on your ship you basically have a 44% chance to get a full shield heal every 5 seconds, given that raw damage is factored into the calculation. So you basically get a free full shield heal every 10 seconds on average. And you heal more, the more you do damage, given a certain dps threshold you will simply always fully heal your shields when the console procs.
Sorry, but this is simply about cost of opportunity. Other ships have to sacrifice valuable BO slots to even achieve a moderate amount of healing, while with this console the monster dps-tank has come true, at the cost of one measly console slot.
I remember as well
hardcapping dps to 5k would be about right for PvE
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
sensor assault never worked in pve, not once. The new version is way better...
I rember whiner klingons saying the same thing bout the plasmonic leach...they wanted to keep it to there faction knowing it was the most powerful console in the game
The Valdor console is just as powerful as the plasmonic leach was in power levels ...the valdore is just as powerful in defense.. I know i run it on all of my romulan ships .. it makes my Tac Romulan ships into engineering Tank ships
I also see romulans crying and whining about the possibility of losing a unearned advantage given to there faction.............just like those older klingon whiners cried about the plasmonic leach
Need some tissue's
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Is this really a nerf romulan tacs thread disguised as a healing thread as I am hearing calls for that. As A tac we went through all the screaming about BO double tap and that's how we were insta vapeing peple now that has been removed and we STILL insta vape people. But because the said problem to us vapeing hasn't fixed the vapeing problem it is now we can out heal people so that must be the problem ?
Like I said I use the valdore console and yes I can and do vape people but I also get vaped and beat down regularly too. The console is good I will agree on that but over powered I have to say no. You must remeber the 3 examples you showed feel a lot of love in the PvP community in the form of people trying to kill them i.e focused fire, so their consoles will be procing like mad giving these high numbers.
A balanced view from a range of players would be more appropriate before you all start screaming NERF it coz it must be why we are inadequate !
Thank you for an actual point freenos.
Firstly I realise that, but as I say it isn't broken down into types of ships, so we don't really know if this is skewed by a load of high dps tac ships or not. My issue with the numbers is one of a lack of truth as to where it came from. Also, if the shield is healing when shields are full and still counts it on a parse then that is obviously skewing them too as for that moment there is no benefit to the proc at all.
One thing you do make a good point about is the proc rate, but might I also point out it has a similar rate of proc to most innate weapon procs? So basically you have similar odds to this console procing as I do to having my polarons proc and shut your shields off for example. Overly simplified example but point is there.
Also considering how OP this console is supposed to be it still never ceases to amaze me how many scimi's and other rom ships I see get wiped in STF's (not just Borg ones) that are running the console, and not through a lack of effort on their part.
I'm basically saying I'm having a very hard time believing this console is as OP as everyone claims it to be. Obviously it shouldn't count heals from it when the shields are full, but that could be fixed without nerfing the console.
Thanks again for the better point.
They should never have swapped consoles in the first place to be honest, the factions are barely different as it is without swapping around what little unique gear they have. Shame really.
Context is of the essence here.
Back in the day there was no adapted honor guard shield for KDF. So Feds had maco shields, and KDF had leech. People did not want the leech to go to the feds for factional uniqueness, if it needed fine tuning back then compared to the maco shield proc that's what many palyers were in favor of. Of course this was before [AMP] warp cores.
The only thing that comes close to the Valdore console is Dyson and ADapted 4(set) bonus. Compared to these you have a huge opportunity cost with the set items, whereas Valdor simply does too much at too little cost.
In both cases, the choice between offense and defense has been removed. Maybe cryptic in its infinite wisdom notices that this is poor design.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
That thread was just poorly done
The point was already made,
I'm wondering....is this the author of the Hilbert guide? if so...i can't believe people are questioning his data or motives.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
The thread starter is the one from the Hilbert guide, yes.
That doesn't mean you can't question the data, because mancom is forced to use the data the client gives us, and if that data is questionable, any conclusions may be, too. But you have to make that point.
But questioning hilbert's motives... That should indeed be right out. (But even if it wasn't him, that's always dangerous, since you can't see inside people's head. You can only read their arguments and try to see if they make sense.)
Even if it is skewed, why are high dps tac ships allowed to get such an advantage out of that console? Just cap the thing. Allow for it to heal at the same rate, but cap the max heal you can get. None-dps ships won't know a difference and high-dps ships won't be able to abuse it.
As to where the numbers come from. Simple, everyone who has his combatlogs uploaded to hilbert's site will be recorded. That means, that the console has to compete against dedicated healer builds, that heavily invest into boosting their healing abilities (via consoles and cd reduction). But even in this context the valdore reigns supreme.
As to when you full shields are healed: I can guaranty you, that if you are firing in pvp, you are always being fired at. So your shields will never be full.
Another thing with this console, as i have already mentioned, is that it seems to take your raw damage into the calculation. That's more a pvp problem, because resists are much higher in pvp meaning that your damage after resists is a lot lower than in pve. So you basically always heal for the same amount in pve and pvp, which is a good thing for general balance, but not for these specific realms of the game.
No, normal weapon procs are per firing cycle, that would mean, that your polaron proc (basing this on 8 beam arrays) would have a chance of around 18% to proc, when every array on your ship started firing. That's per every 5 seconds (which is not fully true, because only a certain amount of weapons can fire at the same time).
And that's basically it. The fact that the weapon bases its healing on raw damage and the per shot proc chance make it into a very unbalanced piece of equipment. For these high dps scimitars in the OP, this basically translates into a console that regenerates 1300-1500 shields per facing, per second.
There are always bad players out there, this doesn't mean that good players can't "exploit" a certain mechanic. Nerf it the right way and lower end players aren't affected.
But was done a lot better and I can relate to it then.
God forbid we ever let someone do whatever they want just because they wrote something. I'm not being sarky, but no matter who someone is it doesn't put them above the given norms when it comes to critiquing their work, that's a dangerous place to go and and is actually not too dissimilar a point to how tribble works in a number of ways at present.
There is an issue however, that I would put to you that those who run the combatlogs are generally from the dps channels or something similar on the whole? Which I would say is safe to assume, so if you then take the words from a most the dps people I've encountered that say they only run with other dpser's if possible because they'd "die in a pug" as a few have put it, then it implies that most of the parses contain very high dps numbers. I'm not saying they're void of more normal parses, but they are likely biased.
Now like you say, if it is mostly tac officers in tactically orientated ships that are getting this benefit then of course that should be normalised, though if you are right about the polaron part of my last answer (I'm going to assume you are, so thanks for the correction) then maybe all that needs to happen is to make it chance higher (3% maybe?) and do it per cycle per weapon. I think giving it a cap or a limit like locking out for x number of seconds before it has the potential to proc again is ludicrous. But like I said, I have issue with where the numbers came from so I'm not happy that they're a fair representation of the community as a whole.
You did use a phrase there though that actually makes me feel a bit more hopeful about this discussion which was "Nerf it the right way and lower end players aren't affected." Now obviously this is almost the premise of the problem we all have with most the pro-nerfers in the thread, which is that what has been said (or has been implied, the result is the same) is to nerf the thing to the point it's worthless. A console has to have an appreciated impact on how a build works, if it doesn't do that it fails the basic test of a console. It has to be better than average to make it worthwhile essentially. Overpowered? No, but it has to be something special to make it worth having.
The other thing is there is a factor about this console that has been overlooked, which is that a console like that is perfect to encourage the less 'pro' players to build a good ship, as this console heals better with higher damage output it does encourage people to improve their builds if it isn't working as well for them, and that's a good thing.
Even eng and sci captains can get high damage results using faw spam. It's just easier for tac, basically because of attack pattern alpha. But that's an entirely different issue (too high possible dps, as in mechanic and challenge breaking). It's not like only the one submitting the combatlog is included in it. Only one person in a match needs to submit it for every other person to be included in the evaluation. That could be anyone. That's why their might be a slight skew there, but i'd wager it not to be too big.
No, you can't make the proc per firing cycle, because you it needs a damage value in it's calculation. I has to be per shot, at least as far as systems are concerned right now and the steps the system takes to calculate damage and proc effects. The lockout would harm everybody, i agree, but a cap would do nothing for lower end captains.
In case of a cap a 100% accurate representation of the whole community doesn't even matter, because a cap would just influence these outliers on the upper end.
That's a very generalistic approach. A console doesn't have to be universally good in every situation. Take the isometric charge for example. Not good against a single target, but only against multiple and even more so if you specced into the right skills. There are consoles, that are somewhat universally good (like +crth and crtd ones), but these are at least somewhat ballanced against each other.
On the other hand, you could also teach these players about healing abilities, and that they have to make some sacrifices to actually do damage and not die in a sec when in combat. You really don't need a console for that, because players will always strife to do more dps anyway.
The premise here isn't that the player wants to do more healing, so he realizes that the consoles delivers that and has a sccaling damage requirement. No, players want to do damage and this console allow for that, but additionally allows you to refrain from using a lot of healing abilities. Healing abilities other captains in other factions have to slot and to even closely achieve this kind of healing. It's simple cost of opportunity here.
Because everything at some point needs to be questioned. Just out of curiosity if the Hilbert guide was/is so god damn perfect why hasn't it be recoded to take carrier pets into account?
And why would a certain player or small group of players feel the need to go back to the drawing board and rewrite a completely new parser? I.E. the Combat Log Reader?
Responses are in blue, just felt easier to do the response that way.
First off I never complained about plasmonic leech, but it was one of few useful consoles that the KDF had access too. Secondly Sarcasm aside what I'd really like is for someone to take the nerf bat to every PvP vaping build in the game. So I can stand there whilst you all cry over it. while stating that Karma's a *****! but hey that's just me.
But no doubt that sooner or later the Dev's will pander to your cries for it to be nerf'd