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RE: PvP Discussion about queue changes for Season 9

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  • semodo1semodo1 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    hurleybird wrote: »
    The guys who whine about premades today will always find something to complain about, no matter what you change. They find fault in everything that inconveniences them in the slightest, not realizing the real fault lies in their attitude. You can see it everywhere in this thread.

    I'm someone that's played PvP, both ground and space, for the most part as a solo player. I've been on some great pug teams. I've been on some bad pug teams. I've been on a team that has been utterly slaughtered by a premade. I've also been on a pug team that's beaten premades. It's not the most fun in the world getting owned by a premade (or any type of team for that matter). However, as someone who understands what it is to pug, it's to be expected that you're going to lose to a well organised and co-ordinated team. As such, win, lose or draw, I say "thanks for the match".

    However, what is happening at the moment (and has been happening recently) in the queues has gotten ridiculous - certain premades q'ing up with the sole intention to slaughter pugs. They use every single piece of what might be considered "cheese" or "broken" or "op" stuff to achieve this. All the while, they magically disappear out of the queue when another premade appears, or when another premade asks for a match in OPvP, it's ignored while they continue their pug-stomping ways. It's a win at all cost attitude, especially when there is no challenge.

    I've read through the thread a fair bit. I've read through many of the threads over the years and read many of the conversations in OPvP - people were asked, advised, warned to stop this kind of pug-stomping, but it continued. No one is to blame for all these changes but ourselves.
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  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited March 2014
    deokkent wrote: »
    So why aren't you playing the game anymore? And why are your issues more genuine than the issues puggers have?

    Not that he needs me to respond for him, but the reason Jorf doesn't play anymore is because there is no challenge left in the game, on top of poor mechanics, and poor attitude amongst the player base. And, well, there are just better games out there.

    As for myself, I log in for about an hour or so tops when I do. My reasons are about the same. But I am a die hard Trekkie. So I don't think I will ever really leave.

    But man, if I could just tell you how bad this game is right now. Pve is mindless. And due to so many mechanical issues... Pvp has never been in a worse state for good gameplay.

    Mmos are not for solo players by design. The devs of this game have had to cater to solo thinking players tho, since that's the majority of the base. I don't vilify them, the have a job to do. It just doesn't make for good pvp.

    Have fun kill bad guys
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  • cerritourugcerritourug Member Posts: 1,376 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    deokkent wrote: »
    See, there is your disconnect. Pugs ARE teams. Pick up group. Group is the operative word here. They just don't have the privilege of being part of a premade, and all the goodies that come with that. Pug is normal mode, premade is hard mode. Both have a place in this game whether you or I like it or not. The real issue here is that they shouldn't have to be in each other's backyard. And puggers are rightly so, to complain about uber synergistic premade. Why not? They aren't on the same playing field anyway. Saying otherwise is denying the reality of things.

    I believe that no ones denies the fact that a 5 or even 4 players of a good pre made team is probably going to obliterate the pugs in 9 out of 10 games. And no ones denied that this need it a fix. But what you cannot denied also (and you do) is the fact that this is an mmo and if you can not play a PVP with at least 1 friend is also wrong.

    Allowing 2 friends having a fun and casual PVP game, does not put in compromise the balance of the pug queue and is a good solution, and like I said before, it could encourage more players to join the queue.

    Maybe a dev can correct me with actual data, but I am pretty sure that a good % of the players on STO have one friend/fleet mate/what ever to play with. Imagine that they want to play PVP, they have 2 choices: play separated and have the random chance of been in the same game and same team or go in team an have a high chance of playing against a 5 man full premade. Probably they will forget about PVP and go to the 1000000 run to ISE.

    But if they can go together to a PVP and not face a premade, well, they can be encourage to improve, to know each other and maybe, even join a PVP group (OPVP chat or a PVP fleet or what ever), became better players and then go to the team queues, incrising the PVP population. And that is something this game needs.

    Allowing 2 friends paly together in a MMO is a win win in every aspect of the game.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    deokkent wrote: »
    See, there is your disconnect. Pugs ARE teams. Pick up group. Group is the operative word here. They just don't have the privilege of being part of a premade, and all the goodies that come with that. Pug is normal mode, premade is hard mode. Both have a place in this game whether you or I like it or not. The real issue here is that they shouldn't have to be in each other's backyard. And puggers are rightly so, to complain about uber synergistic premade. Why not? They aren't on the same playing field anyway. Saying otherwise is denying the reality of things.

    Yes and no.

    Typical/standard MMO
    Pre-defined classes...even with hybrid classes and customization, they're still defined.
    Pre-defined roles...even with hybrid classes and customization, they're still defined.
    Usually 1-2 dungeons every 10 levels to help folks learn their roles and work as a team.
    World questing/content, where it's natural for folks to team up at points to get stuff done.

    Star Trek Online
    No pre-defined classes.
    No pre-defined roles.
    No "dungeons" that help folks work as a team.
    Instanced content.

    STO puts the ME in tEaM. A STO PUG is not going to be your typical/standard MMO PUG...whether one is talking PvP or PvE - both PvP and PvE illustrate this issue endlessly. STO has team content that outside of PvP rarely requires folks to work together. Heck, they've tried adding some...and...players have complained. I mean, c'mon - lol - interruptible interactions...and the playerbase is having a cow about it - they should be able to do everything by themselves, etc, etc, etc. It's what Cryptic has fostered.

    edit: Don't get me wrong, mind you - it's one of the reasons I enjoy STO. I don't like people. :P
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited March 2014
    I got you deokkent, I think we've read enough of each others posts to know where we are both coming from.

    Based on my experience most people who queue up pugging for casual pvp take their stf builds in thinkin they are going to do great. I see it everyday. And when they don't... They wonder why.

    And that's okay, the game hasn't offered a good challenge pve wise, which leads casual pvprs to believe their builds and piloting have been optimized for a group match.

    Honestly, I do not see healing engineers when I stf. Or CC scis.

    I guess in all, I was just trying to say... I've never experienced casual pvp in any game. There are always hardcore guys out there that will smash you. They have put in the time for gear and experience. So, I guess that's their due.

    What I have not experienced in any other game though, is the amount of sheer numbers that cannot understand this. And won't accept it.

    Heck, I get along with everyone. Yet I popped a defiant yesterday in my bug... And the rage pm's began. So I'm a lockbox noob. Okay then.

    Like you said. It's an attitude problem.

    Edit: btw, all I do is pug.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    deokkent wrote: »
    2 scimitars cancels out your optimism. :P

    5x PUG Scimitars completely unaware there is anybody else there...with the 4pc bonus from the Counter-Command weapon set counters out your 2x skilled guys in Scimitars. Meh, I lost the link...should have bookmarked them, bah.

    edit: Found it on reddit... http://i.imgur.com/9jLwZHt.jpg
  • cerritourugcerritourug Member Posts: 1,376 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    deokkent wrote: »
    Anyways, if the whole logic is to allow friends to play together in pugs, why even stop at 2?

    Because 2 offers a good compromise beatuine a balance game and be able to have 2 friends having a mach together.
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  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited March 2014
    Because 2 offers a good compromise beatuine a balance game and be able to have 2 friends having a mach together.

    That logic confuses me.

    What if 4 friends want to play together. They aren't a premade... But now they can't play together unless they queue up to face premades teams?

    So now we are bringing something into thought based on how many friends players have and how many we think is appropriate to team with?
  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    edit: Found it on reddit... http://i.imgur.com/9jLwZHt.jpg
    This combined with the reputation version of the [Adapt] modifier... will ships always die with full shields then?

    With Cryptic it's always one step back and then two steps back again.
    1042856
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    mancom wrote: »
    This combined with the reputation version of the [Adapt] modifier... will ships always die with full shields then?

    With Cryptic it's always one step back and then two steps back again.

    So much for not wanting power creep in there game right. lol

    I will also say for 2s I was look cool more photon +s... then thought oh wait hold on... this will stack wit the Dyson +photon dmg and crit chance won't it. lol

    So Experimental + Phaser DHC + Unidne torp + Grav Photon
    Heavy Phaser Turret

    Throw on Undine + Dyson console

    Boom +25 photon +23 photon console +3% more crth +10% crit chance on photons and another +10% CrtD

    I don't know that seems like a lot of photon +s that are really easy to combo up.

    Heck on a Tvaro torp boat you could just run all the photons in the front... and put the experimental in the back and forget about it. Don't need the Heavy turret to get the +photon in the undine set so just run the console + torp. I do raise an eyebrow that back to back reps boost the exact same torp and so easily. If they had at least made one a quantum or something there wouldn't be the synergy... all well I'm looking forward to criting people with 90k photons so they can go wtf. silly.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • ilhanskilhansk Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    5x PUG Scimitars completely unaware there is anybody else there...with the 4pc bonus from the Counter-Command weapon set counters out your 2x skilled guys in Scimitars. Meh, I lost the link...should have bookmarked them, bah.

    edit: Found it on reddit... http://i.imgur.com/9jLwZHt.jpg


    What is this devilry?!

    I've got a bad feeling about this.
    Visit the Inner Circle YouTube Channel to watch some STO pew pew PVP action!

  • mikiiymikiiy Member Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    hurleybird wrote: »
    The guys who whine about premades today will always find something to complain about, no matter what you change. They find fault in everything that inconveniences them in the slightest, not realizing the real fault lies in their attitude. You can see it everywhere in this thread.

    Couldn't have been said any better :)
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    So much for not wanting power creep in there game right. lol

    I will also say for 2s I was look cool more photon +s... then thought oh wait hold on... this will stack wit the Dyson +photon dmg and crit chance won't it. lol

    So Experimental + Phaser DHC + Unidne torp + Grav Photon
    Heavy Phaser Turret

    Throw on Undine + Dyson console

    Boom +25 photon +23 photon console +3% more crth +10% crit chance on photons and another +10% CrtD

    I don't know that seems like a lot of photon +s that are really easy to combo up.

    Heck on a Tvaro torp boat you could just run all the photons in the front... and put the experimental in the back and forget about it. Don't need the Heavy turret to get the +photon in the undine set so just run the console + torp. I do raise an eyebrow that back to back reps boost the exact same torp and so easily. If they had at least made one a quantum or something there wouldn't be the synergy... all well I'm looking forward to criting people with 90k photons so they can go wtf. silly.

    I posted this in another thread...
    2pc T'varo: +10% non-base Projectile Damage
    2pc KHG: +25% base Torpedo Damage
    2pc Protonic: +22.9% base Photon Damage
    2pc Undie Secondary: +25% base Photon Damage
    4x ATVx Photon: +127.6% base Photon Damage
    T2 Omega Omega Weapon Training: +10% non-base All Damage
    T4 Nukara Auxiliary Power Configuration - Offense: +37.5% base All Damage
    Cloaked Firing: +15% non-base All Damage

    That's...

    +238% base Damage
    +35% non-base Damage

    While running a combination of BFW (Disruptor) Torps, BFW (Radiation) Torps, Grav (Rift) Torps...

    That's without buffs/debuffs, without looking at CrtD/CrtH, etc, etc, etc. That +35% non-base Damage alone is buffing the +238% base Damage to be +321.3% base Damage...much less all the other base Damage modifiers (and base Damage itself) that it's modifying - as well as any other non-base Damage modifiers that are modifying that +238%...with that all being modified by Weapon Buffs and then Critical Severity.

    ...and that's not including the +49.5% base Projectile Damage from 9 Projectile Weapons nor the +49.5% base Weapon Damage from 9 Weapon Training. It's not including the ~127% base Damage coming from them being Mk XII Very Rare.

    And like you said, you could mount the Experimental Proton aft and never worry about it - while picking up some additional +CrtD for the Photons.

    And well...yeah, it's what I'm trying to dork around with Willard over on Tribble with at the moment. Just so tedious grinding C-C Rep.

    Course, Willard's a Sci - so he'll be looking at the Scan/SNB combo - while a Tac, well - doing the APA and riding the GDF thing.

    I'm just looking at them...

    There's the old BFW from Mind Game which can kill crew faster. There's the new BFW from Mind Game with the Disruptor proc. There's the Rep Store BFWs...there's the Enhanced BFW...there's the Grav Photon. It's a Photon Party! There's even BFW Mines for those that want that dance. Grav Rifts, Disruptor Procs, Chron Procs, Radiation...wheeee!

    Er...babble on my part - er - topic - queues...could you imagine the amount of complaining that would take place from folks with some of the new toys from a coordinated group instead of the mess it's going to be with a regular ol' group?
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Yep its still shocking to me that we can see these issues but they can't... People think the Phasic torp boats where a bit annoying when those where first buffed. Wait until they die fully shielded when I pelt them with 100k torp spreads.

    I mean I would have been one of the first to say photon needed a buff.. it was the weakest of the torpedo types for a long time. Even with the 6s fire rates. It is starting to get a bit over the top on what you can boost photons up to though.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    IMHO what this game needs is a T2-3 type of PVP PUG arena for the "casual" players , and perhaps more of what has been suggested here .

    Because , even with mixed queues and nerfed Rep , most of you will still have the leg up in terms of keybinds , Doffs , Reps , Lockbox / Fleet / C-Store ships and cheese consoles .

    Note that I'm not pointing fingers .
    I'm simply refusing to see this "improvement" and the Rep nerf as anything other then band-aids on the Vet's VS New Blood problem that most of you recognise (and have discussed to death) .

    At best , this change will bring on the 'luck of the draw' , and at worst you'll have AFK-ers "discover" PVP .

    I also know that most of you would not be happy to give up your finely tuned builds for a simplistic 4-6 powers alone type of gameplay .
    But that same 4-6 powers gameplay is all that a newbie has known before he reached Level 50 ... and even at that he's not likely to be very good ... (as killing 3-5 mobs of NPC's does not quite prep you for analytical thinking) .

    I don't want to condemn this change out of the gate , but I don't think it's the Miracle Cure to PVP either . :)
  • cerritourugcerritourug Member Posts: 1,376 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    That logic confuses me.

    What if 4 friends want to play together. They aren't a premade... But now they can't play together unless they queue up to face premades teams?

    So now we are bringing something into thought based on how many friends players have and how many we think is appropriate to team with?


    No no.. I agree with you. I have 5 friends that like to play PVP, we lossed even with pugs but we play it to learn and for the fun.

    But hell.. the alternative of playing alone is really bad, at least we can play with at least one friend now.

    Dont get me wrong, I dont like the changes, but the alternative of not be able to play with a friend just for the fun is even worst.
    __________________________________________________

    Division Hispana
    www.divisionhispana.com
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    everyone seen these yet? http://imgur.com/a/yqzct


    pretty much rewrites the rules again. stuff like this is why i dont even try to keep my build thread up to date anymore, just to many crazy items and builds you could make with them
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    The 4pc Weapon Set - anybody else notice that a 4th piece is missing from the projects?

    Where's the...Console - Tactical - Counter-Command Multi-Conduit Energy Relay?

    edit: Ugh, I so what to speculate on where we're going to find that console...
  • sleeeperr1sleeeperr1 Member Posts: 91 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    sad how more and more people are seeing these upcoming changes thats its enough to make people who've played from beta to say they're done with the game : / I might end up being one of them
  • legiqnairelegiqnaire Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    sleeeperr1 wrote: »
    sad how more and more people are seeing these upcoming changes thats its enough to make people who've played from beta to say they're done with the game : / I might end up being one of them

    It's a house of cards, brudda. All this game has is it's player base. Once that fails, and the key players start leaving, it's all going to come down around us. It already has sadly, and a lot of good fleets are going under because of the drama associated with it all. Turning friends against one another, and causing rivalries to start. All we can do is play the game until it dies, and move onto something fresh and new. Hopefully the devs will realize that there is a cancer in the game and work quickly to change it before it's too late. I like this game a lot, and even after all the drama and stuff that's happened, I'm finding ways to hang on. My friends, being the most prevalent.

    I love ya, buddy. We've been friends for a long time, I'd honestly hate to see another friend leave the game. I urge you to reconsider, although I understand completely why it's becoming a struggle to stay.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    The 4pc Weapon Set - anybody else notice that a 4th piece is missing from the projects?

    Where's the...Console - Tactical - Counter-Command Multi-Conduit Energy Relay?

    edit: Ugh, I so what to speculate on where we're going to find that console...

    Guaranteed one of the following three

    1. Lobi Store
    2. Lockbox
    3. C-store 2500 Zen ship

    Personally, I reckon its gonna be 1
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Guaranteed one of the following three

    1. Lobi Store
    2. Lockbox
    3. C-store 2500 Zen ship

    Personally, I reckon its gonna be 1

    You know, I was thinking #1 or #2...somebody suggested in another thread it could be #4 (just a T5 reward); but I think that unlikely. Could be #5, a reward from some S9 mission. But that #3 got me thinking...S9 Accord and stuff; what if it was a case of them introducing crossfaction Zen ships? Course, it could even be #6 - tied into a Fleet holding tied into it all. But #3 really got me thinking, based on the whole Accord thing...but it could be all sorts of things.
  • therealmttherealmt Member Posts: 428 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    everyone seen these yet? http://imgur.com/a/yqzct


    pretty much rewrites the rules again. stuff like this is why i dont even try to keep my build thread up to date anymore, just to many crazy items and builds you could make with them

    A direct result of a chinese p2w mmo model. Pump out as much as possible TRIBBLE to keep players grinding!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • notrealednanotrealedna Member Posts: 1,028
    edited March 2014
    therealmt wrote: »
    A direct result of a chinese p2w mmo model. Pump out as much as possible TRIBBLE to keep players grinding!

    it works so why not?If you ask me it works even better because people grind but also have more money.

    Now excuse me ,I have to go order some chinese food for the breaks I take between PvE grinds. :rolleyes:
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    You know, I was thinking #1 or #2...somebody suggested in another thread it could be #4 (just a T5 reward); but I think that unlikely. Could be #5, a reward from some S9 mission. But that #3 got me thinking...S9 Accord and stuff; what if it was a case of them introducing crossfaction Zen ships? Course, it could even be #6 - tied into a Fleet holding tied into it all. But #3 really got me thinking, based on the whole Accord thing...but it could be all sorts of things.

    Makes perfect sense. New Cstore 3 pack one ship per faction 2,500 zen or 5,000 zen for all 3 factions. Ship will come with that console plus at T? of the new holding you can upgrade it to a fleet ship quality!!

    Gotta stuff those holdings with something, like the +1 reputation trait slot i'd bet 100USD will be in the new holding.

    Ugh.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    bareel wrote: »
    Makes perfect sense. New Cstore 3 pack one ship per faction 2,500 zen or 5,000 zen for all 3 factions. Ship will come with that console plus at T? of the new holding you can upgrade it to a fleet ship quality!!

    Gotta stuff those holdings with something, like the +1 reputation trait slot i'd bet 100USD will be in the new holding.

    Ugh.

    Heh, I hadn't even considered the possibility of a 3pack - but that would be a way to go to. I was just thinking a single shared ship...but a 3pack of "factionalized" shared technology...yeah, could see them doing that as well. Hell, to be honest - could see them doing the 3x 3packs - the 9pack again, like they did with the DSDs.

    Cause, we can't forget - the USS Gold was hanging out there with the (fudge, forgot the name of the other sphere already) - all that new info - the Accord...

    ...yep, so much speculation because of a 4th piece to a 4pc set. But c'mon, look at that 4pc bonus - how could there not be oodles of speculation?

    And again, it's going to tie into how the queues are split...imho.

    It's like the 2x BO (nerf/tweak) thing. They did something because they knew a whole bunch of worse stuff was coming. Lol, it's like the Rep Passive/Trait thing - they're doing something because they know a bunch of worse stuff is coming.

    Proactive tweaking/nerfing to introduce even more power...

    ...is the RvB/Team thing just Cryptic realizing that if they hadn't done something like this, that with the rest of what they're doing they would have completely killed of PvP? And as somebody begins to wag their finger at Cryptic for that, well, I'd say - at least it shows they're still conflicted about whether to kill it off or not. :P
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