According to whom? That race that got the Voyager story completely wrong?
Again, we have another person cherry picking certain points to provide "evidence" while completely ignoring canon. The Federation Council and Starfleet heard about all of it and they decided she didn't do anything wrong. She was promoted, so trying to argue how she's some homicidal maniac hell bent on genocide is just blowing hot air.
To put things in perspective... a U.S. President gave the order to drop atomic bombs on a civilian population, leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths, including unarmed women and children. A Prime Minister of the U.K. chose not to warn a town of an impending TRIBBLE bombing raid which led to the deaths of thousands of unarmed civilians. These two men are hailed as heroes according to history. That's not fiction, that's real life history.
And a U.S. President went to war against a country against the U.N. over chemical weapons said country DIDN'T EVEN HAVE. U.K. Prime Minister also did so. The resulting war led to hundreds of unnecessary civilian casualties, but neither of these men have been put on war crimes when they probably should have been.
And a U.S. President went to war against a country against the U.N. over chemical weapons said country DIDN'T EVEN HAVE. U.K. Prime Minister also did so. The resulting war led to hundreds of unnecessary civilian casualties, but neither of these men have been put on war crimes when they probably should have been.
Valoreah is right.
Yeah, but Bush and Cheney can't leave the country for fear of arrest. And nobody's disputing the fact that Bush, Cheney, and to a lesser extent Blair are bad people.
Can we all agree that Voyager was inconsistently and poorly written, and leave it at that? Because this is getting nuts, with the anti-Janeway crowd calling her worse than Hitler (pardon the Godwin) and the pro-Janeway crowd practically beatifying her.
I hate to be that guy, but it's beautifying. I almost read that as if you were saying I was beating her.
Also, I don't particularly care for Voyager or Janeway (Picard's my favourite captain, followed by Sisko), I just prefer people judging a character fairly.
I hate to be that guy, but it's beautifying. I almost read that as if you were saying I was beating her.
Also, I don't particularly care for Voyager or Janeway (Picard's my favourite captain, followed by Sisko), I just prefer people judging a character fairly.
Actually, it is "beatifying". Like Catholic saints.
I am trying to give Janeway a fair trial, it's just...the writing is so bad, we can't see what is the character and what is the idiot Narrative.
But unlike the many exploits of Janeway, the Episode never pretended that Sisko was right in his action during that Episode. I just kind of lacked any... consequences...
Yeah. Stuff like that is why I identify more as a browncoat or a gatehead than as a trekkie. SG-1 does something morally questionable, the show more or less nonverbally admits that they're in the gray, and 99% of the time it's going to come back and bite them in the TRIBBLE later on. Ref: "Thor's Hammer" -> "Thor's Chariot", "Unnatural Selection" -> "The New Order", etc.
Star Trek has this annoying tendency to basically wander off and ignore the logical results of morally questionable and/or outright stupid moves by its protagonists.
I hate to be that guy, but it's beautifying. I almost read that as if you were saying I was beating her.
No, he had the right word.
beatifyn. Roman Catholic Church: to declare (a deceased person) to be among the blessed and thus entitled to specific religious honor.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
In the Sisko's defense, he was careful to choose a dosage that would take a long time to seriously hurt anyone.
In Janeway's defense, first contact with the Undine resulted in the Undine declaring war on the Federation. The Borg were willing to negotiate a truce, the Undine weren't. Sure, the Borg are untrustworthy, but it's a choice of getting shot in the face now or maybe getting shot in the back later...
Of course we later find out the REAL reason for the Borg-Undine war, and that the Borg were being setup to look like chumps by a revenge crazed madman....
Thank you. That was the point I have been trying to make (albeit, badly).
Harry S. Truman, President of the United States of America and Commander in Chief of the U.S. Armed forces gave the order to drop nuclear weapons on a civilian population, killing hundreds of thousands of unarmed civilians. That's not fiction, that's real. No trial, no "capital military offense", he did what he needed to do given the circumstances. So did Janeway and that's how the Federation Council saw it. You can try to deny it all you like and interpret her promotion any way you like. Bottom line is, canon proves you wrong.
Truman won. Whether what he did was right or not (and I'm actually leaning towards not, because the real reason Japan surrendered was the Russian invasion of Japanese territories), Truman won, so he wrote the history books.
Not to start a political riot, but I'll dispute it. They're no better or no worse than anyone who came before them or since.
Um...Richard Nixon was better than Cheney, just by virtue of doing less openly evil stuff. So was Jimmy Carter, who is a good guy, if not a strong President.
Harry S. Truman, President of the United States of America and Commander in Chief of the U.S. Armed forces gave the order to drop nuclear weapons on a civilian population, killing hundreds of thousands of unarmed civilians. That's not fiction, that's real. No trial, no "capital military offense", he did what he needed to do given the circumstances. So did Janeway and that's how the Federation Council saw it. You can try to deny it all you like and interpret her promotion any way you like. Bottom line is, canon proves you wrong.
This is where we disagree, but historians have been debating Hiroshima and Nagasaki for 70 years, so I won't go into it now.
Only because she's not a complete idiot and planned ahead for the Collective's sudden but inevitable betrayal. I'll give her that much.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
And that happened even before the reached that fertile land they wanted to thrive... and intended to call.... "this land"
*dies laughing*
FIREFLY REFERENCES FOR EVERYONE!!!!!1!!!
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You're still not getting it. In your opinion what she did is wrong. In the opinion of the people who mattered, she wasn't. Canon proves you wrong.
She still did a large number of openly evil things, and I would BET that someone in Starfleet Intelligence took a long, hard look at her case file, and probably tried to get it to someone important's attention. But, humans being silly and illogical creatures, Janeway got away with it because she got one ship and about 150 people home, and followed the Prime Directive in the worst possible way (which pleases the tiny-minded bureaucrats who came up with the damn thing in the first place).
Harry S. Truman, President of the United States of America and Commander in Chief of the U.S. Armed forces gave the order to drop nuclear weapons on a civilian population, killing hundreds of thousands of unarmed civilians. That's not fiction, that's real. No trial, no "capital military offense", he did what he needed to do given the circumstances. So did Janeway and that's how the Federation Council saw it. You can try to deny it all you like and interpret her promotion any way you like. Bottom line is, canon proves you wrong.
Firstly, as President, Truman was not bound by the UCMJ (but absolutely, yes, he definitely qualifies as a war criminal, as above, do Bush, Cheney and Blair, and they should all be tried in the Hague, and then hung like Sadam was, but in the world we live in, we're more likely to see First Contact with the Vulcans before a US President is held accountable for anything...)
Secondly, canon does not prove me wrong, for the reasons I gave previously. I admit, there is no canon statement that she was sideways transferred, but equally, there was no canon statement that she was not. Canon depictions of several other admirals showed them as being 'hands on' officers who still participated in missions. Janeway as an admiral did not fit that mold. She was more like the Commodores in ToS who held a higher rank, but were relegated to desk duties. The fact that she was wearing a full admiral's rank, rather than a mere rear admiral, can be dismissed in the same way it was dismissed that in Voyager's pilot, Tuvok held the rank of lieutenant commander, and did so for a few episodes, despite being addressed as Lieutenant... Wardrobe error... Nothing more, nothing less
Show us a canon episode or movie that referenced this in any way.
*writes up response*
*rereads response*
*deletes response*
TRIBBLE it, I'm not wasting any more of my time on you. You're pointing at canon and saying that anything that didn't happen on-screen didn't actually happen.
Like there isn't a whole f*cking Federation of people who are going to see what Janeway did and either go "Yay, she got that ship we've only barely heard of back" or "Holy [insert deity here], she killed HOW many people, watched HOW many civilizations die, and allied with WHAT, now?????"
The fact that she was wearing a full admiral's rank, rather than a mere rear admiral, can be dismissed in the same way it was dismissed that in Voyager's pilot, Tuvok held the rank of lieutenant commander, and did so for a few episodes, despite being addressed as Lieutenant... Wardrobe error... Nothing more, nothing less
Just like that redshirt, erm, goldshirt in "Field of Fire" who Ezri called an ensign when he was wearing the pips of a lieutenant junior grade.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
And a U.S. President went to war against a country against the U.N. over chemical weapons said country DIDN'T EVEN HAVE. U.K. Prime Minister also did so. The resulting war led to hundreds of unnecessary civilian casualties, but neither of these men have been put on war crimes when they probably should have been.
Valoreah is right.
Yeah, that topic is hotly debated even now. We may not have found a stockpile, but.... we have verifiable records that Iraq used chemical weapons at least once.
Firstly, as President, Truman was not bound by the UCMJ (but absolutely, yes, he definitely qualifies as a war criminal, as above, do Bush, Cheney and Blair, and they should all be tried in the Hague, and then hung like Sadam was, but in the world we live in, we're more likely to see First Contact with the Vulcans before a US President is held accountable for anything...)
Secondly, canon does not prove me wrong, for the reasons I gave previously. I admit, there is no canon statement that she was sideways transferred, but equally, there was no canon statement that she was not. Canon depictions of several other admirals showed them as being 'hands on' officers who still participated in missions. Janeway as an admiral did not fit that mold. She was more like the Commodores in ToS who held a higher rank, but were relegated to desk duties. The fact that she was wearing a full admiral's rank, rather than a mere rear admiral, can be dismissed in the same way it was dismissed that in Voyager's pilot, Tuvok held the rank of lieutenant commander, and did so for a few episodes, despite being addressed as Lieutenant... Wardrobe error... Nothing more, nothing less
In fairness, it was only one appearance. Nechayev was a recurring character in both TNG and DS9, Hanson was a supporting character in TBOBW and Leyton and Dougherty were main characters in their respective stories. Janeway was a cameo appearance and Nemesis was the last film of the TNG era.
"Yay, she got that ship we've only barely heard of back"
The USS Voyager, by the time the series ended, was very well known. Remember the Doctor wrote an apparently very well selling holosuite novel about them. And all that stuff with the subspace messages home and what Barclay was doing, Voyager and its crew were a bunch of at least mild celebrities by the end there.
The fact that she was wearing a full admiral's rank, rather than a mere rear admiral, can be dismissed in the same way it was dismissed that in Voyager's pilot, Tuvok held the rank of lieutenant commander, and did so for a few episodes, despite being addressed as Lieutenant... Wardrobe error... Nothing more, nothing less
Tuvok was demoted form Lt. Cmrd to Lieutenant for trying to exchange that library for alien technology against Janeways orders.
Comments
And a U.S. President went to war against a country against the U.N. over chemical weapons said country DIDN'T EVEN HAVE. U.K. Prime Minister also did so. The resulting war led to hundreds of unnecessary civilian casualties, but neither of these men have been put on war crimes when they probably should have been.
Valoreah is right.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Yeah, but Bush and Cheney can't leave the country for fear of arrest. And nobody's disputing the fact that Bush, Cheney, and to a lesser extent Blair are bad people.
I hate to be that guy, but it's beautifying. I almost read that as if you were saying I was beating her.
Also, I don't particularly care for Voyager or Janeway (Picard's my favourite captain, followed by Sisko), I just prefer people judging a character fairly.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Actually, it is "beatifying". Like Catholic saints.
I am trying to give Janeway a fair trial, it's just...the writing is so bad, we can't see what is the character and what is the idiot Narrative.
Yeah. Stuff like that is why I identify more as a browncoat or a gatehead than as a trekkie. SG-1 does something morally questionable, the show more or less nonverbally admits that they're in the gray, and 99% of the time it's going to come back and bite them in the TRIBBLE later on. Ref: "Thor's Hammer" -> "Thor's Chariot", "Unnatural Selection" -> "The New Order", etc.
Star Trek has this annoying tendency to basically wander off and ignore the logical results of morally questionable and/or outright stupid moves by its protagonists.
No, he had the right word.
beatify n. Roman Catholic Church: to declare (a deceased person) to be among the blessed and thus entitled to specific religious honor.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Thank you. That was the point I have been trying to make (albeit, badly).
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
That, I am willing to agree to agree on.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Truman won. Whether what he did was right or not (and I'm actually leaning towards not, because the real reason Japan surrendered was the Russian invasion of Japanese territories), Truman won, so he wrote the history books.
Ah. I stand corrected.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Um...Richard Nixon was better than Cheney, just by virtue of doing less openly evil stuff. So was Jimmy Carter, who is a good guy, if not a strong President.
This is where we disagree, but historians have been debating Hiroshima and Nagasaki for 70 years, so I won't go into it now.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
But Janeway isn't head of the winning power. Aennik Okeg is (although someone else was, at the time). And what she did is still wrong.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And that happened even before the reached that fertile land they wanted to thrive... and intended to call.... "this land"
*dies laughing*
FIREFLY REFERENCES FOR EVERYONE!!!!!1!!!
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I don't get the joke...
Admittedly, I'm poorly versed in movie referencing, so could someone explain why that's funny and where it's from?
EDIT: Okay, got where it's from. Why's it funny? What's the context?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
She still did a large number of openly evil things, and I would BET that someone in Starfleet Intelligence took a long, hard look at her case file, and probably tried to get it to someone important's attention. But, humans being silly and illogical creatures, Janeway got away with it because she got one ship and about 150 people home, and followed the Prime Directive in the worst possible way (which pleases the tiny-minded bureaucrats who came up with the damn thing in the first place).
At the cost of millions of lives.
Firstly, as President, Truman was not bound by the UCMJ (but absolutely, yes, he definitely qualifies as a war criminal, as above, do Bush, Cheney and Blair, and they should all be tried in the Hague, and then hung like Sadam was, but in the world we live in, we're more likely to see First Contact with the Vulcans before a US President is held accountable for anything...)
Secondly, canon does not prove me wrong, for the reasons I gave previously. I admit, there is no canon statement that she was sideways transferred, but equally, there was no canon statement that she was not. Canon depictions of several other admirals showed them as being 'hands on' officers who still participated in missions. Janeway as an admiral did not fit that mold. She was more like the Commodores in ToS who held a higher rank, but were relegated to desk duties. The fact that she was wearing a full admiral's rank, rather than a mere rear admiral, can be dismissed in the same way it was dismissed that in Voyager's pilot, Tuvok held the rank of lieutenant commander, and did so for a few episodes, despite being addressed as Lieutenant... Wardrobe error... Nothing more, nothing less
*writes up response*
*rereads response*
*deletes response*
TRIBBLE it, I'm not wasting any more of my time on you. You're pointing at canon and saying that anything that didn't happen on-screen didn't actually happen.
Like there isn't a whole f*cking Federation of people who are going to see what Janeway did and either go "Yay, she got that ship we've only barely heard of back" or "Holy [insert deity here], she killed HOW many people, watched HOW many civilizations die, and allied with WHAT, now?????"
Mostly the latter, IMHO.
One word:
Tuvix.
There is no way around this being cold murder.
Just like that redshirt, erm, goldshirt in "Field of Fire" who Ezri called an ensign when he was wearing the pips of a lieutenant junior grade.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
In fairness, it was only one appearance. Nechayev was a recurring character in both TNG and DS9, Hanson was a supporting character in TBOBW and Leyton and Dougherty were main characters in their respective stories. Janeway was a cameo appearance and Nemesis was the last film of the TNG era.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
The USS Voyager, by the time the series ended, was very well known. Remember the Doctor wrote an apparently very well selling holosuite novel about them. And all that stuff with the subspace messages home and what Barclay was doing, Voyager and its crew were a bunch of at least mild celebrities by the end there.
Tuvok was demoted form Lt. Cmrd to Lieutenant for trying to exchange that library for alien technology against Janeways orders.