Battle of Wolf 359. I mean really, Picard wouldn't be serving in Starfleet after that, let alone captaining a ship.
So it's fiction. Let it go. Janeway is nowhere near as bad as you make her out to be. Well other than mating with her conn officer that one time.
Um...
Picard was assimilated at the time. He was not legally or morally responsible for Locutus's actions. I'm surprised that he wasn't in therapy for it, but they DID try to get him to stay away from the Borg in First Contact. So Command aren't complete idiots.
Worst : Janeway (Only because they screwed her up after season 1 ) , Neelix , Kes , Gowron (We still need the crazy eyes ingame) , worf (Because they missed a chance to expand on klingon culture with him), archer .
Gowron? Really? I loved him. He sort of went off the rails towards the end of DS9, but he was an interesting character. Much more depth to him than your average Klingon.
Gowron? Really? I loved him. He sort of went off the rails towards the end of DS9, but he was an interesting character. Much more depth to him than your average Klingon.
Never mind that, the way he talked was hilarious. All together now: Woooof.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Also, if I remember the episode rightly, Species 8472's first response to Voyager's crew was to poison their Operations Officer (Kim) and try to attack the ship... and, unless I'm mistaken, that was BEFORE Janeway allied with the Borg to stop them.
If starsword was such an expert on military nature, she would know that when that happens it is prudent to consider the aggressor hostile and deal with them any way you can to protect your ship and crew. What Janeway did was PRUDENCE up until the Borg effectively hijacked Voyager, at which point, she didn't have much choice for similar reasons. They were in a warzone.
I again bring up my previous point:
And First Contact with the Klingons went just soooooo well, did it? How about First Contact with the Romulans? The Andorians? The Tellarites?
Not one of those was a peaceful First Contact. Hell, the Romulans started a war with Earth.
And yet, we now have an alliance between the Feds and a significant Romulan faction. Not to mention the major Fed-Klingon alliance during the TNG era.
First Contact rarely goes well, ESPECIALLY when it's between some crack troops and a stranded Undine on a Borg ship. Both sides are in a trigger-happy mood there.
Gowron? Really? I loved him. He sort of went off the rails towards the end of DS9, but he was an interesting character. Much more depth to him than your average Klingon.
Its the way he went out like a punk i expected more as in a second klingon civil war between gowron and martok with the empire hanging in the balance.
And First Contact with the Klingons went just soooooo well, did it? How about First Contact with the Romulans? The Andorians? The Tellarites?
Not one of those was a peaceful First Contact. Hell, the Romulans started a war with Earth.
And yet, we now have an alliance between the Feds and a significant Romulan faction. Not to mention the major Fed-Klingon alliance during the TNG era.
First Contact rarely goes well, ESPECIALLY when it's between some crack troops and a stranded Undine on a Borg ship. Both sides are in a trigger-happy mood there.
You've kinda proved my point. With the Klingons, when they attacked Enterprise, Archer shot back. When the Romulans attacked the Coalition, they fought back (and tried to ally with the Klingons, an unofficial enemy). Voyager was attacked and they fought back the only way they could.
It's certainly sounds like it. Janeway didn't do anything any other Trek Captain did before her, yet for some reason she's the bane of humanity in your eyes. The only difference is that she's a woman.
Picard got shot to the other side of the universe in season 1 of TNG. He was back home by the end of the episode.
Janeway took 7 seasons to do something that she could've EASILY done in episode 1.
You've kinda proved my point. With the Klingons, when they attacked Enterprise, Archer shot back. When the Romulans attacked the Coalition, they fought back (and tried to ally with the Klingons, an unofficial enemy). Voyager was attacked and they fought back the only way they could.
Yeah, and Archer wasn't a very good captain either.
When Picard got attacked by Acamarian rebels, did he blow them out of space? No.
When the Sisko got attacked by the Jem'Hadar, did the Federation immediately retaliate against the Dominion's unprovoked attacks? No.
Seriously, it's not that hard to give 8472 a shot, especially if you have an extraction plan for your negotiation team.
So at the end of Nemesis, Picard reported back to her and got 3,000 XP, and a choice between a new rifle, a new impulse engine or a new bridge officer?
He got the new bridge and the new bridge officer... He'd've had to run that by someone at command...
Picard got shot to the other side of the universe in season 1 of TNG. He was back home by the end of the episode.
Janeway took 7 seasons to do something that she could've EASILY done in episode 1.
Arguably, to preserve the balance of power under the Prime Directive.
Also, Picard had a time-travelling alien who through sci-magic was able to manipulate warp fields. Janeway had a Talaxian, an Ocampa and a dying blob...
Arguably, to preserve the balance of power under the Prime Directive.
Also, Picard had a time-travelling alien who through sci-magic was able to manipulate warp fields. Janeway had a Talaxian, an Ocampa and a dying blob...
Picard may have had a slightly better hand.
Yeah, but...
Time delayed mines and/or torps. Leave those lying around really close to the array, and use the array .001 seconds before they blow.
Back home, safe and sound, the Kazon are stuck, everything's happily ever after.
Except that Neelix is now in the Federation, but I suppose that even that doomsday scenario is within Picard's or Sisko's repertoire.
Time delayed mines and/or torps. Leave those lying around really close to the array, and use the array .001 seconds before they blow.
Back home, safe and sound, the Kazon are stuck, everything's happily ever after.
Except that Neelix is now in the Federation, but I suppose that even that doomsday scenario is within Picard's or Sisko's repertoire.
Except they had no idea how it worked and it's typically a bad idea to stick around while you're being shot at. In hindsight, Janeway could have done that, but in her situation with the time limit she had, she had to make a quick decision in line with her training and moral code.
She chose to save an innocent race of people. Starfleet obviously agreed with her.
Yeah, and Archer wasn't a very good captain either.
When Picard got attacked by Acamarian rebels, did he blow them out of space? No.
When the Sisko got attacked by the Jem'Hadar, did the Federation immediately retaliate against the Dominion's unprovoked attacks? No.
Seriously, it's not that hard to give 8472 a shot, especially if you have an extraction plan for your negotiation team.
The Acamarians didn't poison one of Picard's crew and the Jem'Hadar were reacting to a territorial infringement (and served a Galaxy-Class-sized notice on the Federation). Species 8472, as far as Janeway knew at the time, attacked her ship and crew with little provocation with the armament to vaporise Voyager in seconds if they wanted (not to mention the ability to blow up a planet) and, unless I'm mistaken, did not communicate with Voyager despite attempts from Voyager until the Terradome episode.
Personally, I think I could forgive her for getting help from the only nearby source in order to stop a clear and present threat, given the information she had available at the time.
Except they had no idea how it worked and it's typically a bad idea to stick around while you're being shot at. In hindsight, Janeway could have done that, but in her situation with the time limit she had, she had to make a quick decision in line with her training and moral code.
She chose to save an innocent race of people. Starfleet obviously agreed with her.
Yeah, I don't really have a problem with that one. It would've taken, at minimum, hours (according to Tuvok) to get the array warmed up, and the Kazon Ogla were already calling in reinforcements. The ship Chakotay crashed the Val Jean into? That thing was bigger than a GCS according to the VOY Technical Manual and was already giving Voyager a hard time.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
And Janeway was promoted to Admiral based on her performance and put in a position where she is handing out orders to the Federation flagship. There's no questioning that.
Of course they didn't. They came from the Federation Council, just as they do for any other Admiral.
She was transferred away from active command of a starship to a desk job in Command, regardless of the new pips they gave her. Yes, 'handing out orders' in the context of passing on a message. Not actually giving orders like Admiral Nechayev used to do... I'm not questioning anything, simply pointing out that while her promotion may look good, it can easily be considered as a sideways transfer...
Except they had no idea how it worked and it's typically a bad idea to stick around while you're being shot at. In hindsight, Janeway could have done that, but in her situation with the time limit she had, she had to make a quick decision in line with her training and moral code.
She chose to save an innocent race of people. Starfleet obviously agreed with her.
--Dying blob that knows how to work the array.
--Torpedo bay full of blowy-up stuff.
--Somewhat superior tech to the Kazon.
--Easy answer: Blast the hell out of the first couple waves of Kazon, then have the blob use the array for you and leave some torps behind as you go. If you're lucky, you'll get a glimpse of Kazon ships closing in on the array as it starts to explode, and you'll have happy memories of what you imagined their expressions to be like at that moment.
I still think that it reflects poorly on Janeway that she made the decision she did.
The Acamarians didn't poison one of Picard's crew and the Jem'Hadar were reacting to a territorial infringement (and served a Galaxy-Class-sized notice on the Federation). Species 8472, as far as Janeway knew at the time, attacked her ship and crew with little provocation with the armament to vaporise Voyager in seconds if they wanted (not to mention the ability to blow up a planet) and, unless I'm mistaken, did not communicate with Voyager despite attempts from Voyager until the Terradome episode.
Personally, I think I could forgive her for getting help from the only nearby source in order to stop a clear and present threat, given the information she had available at the time.
Acamarians shot the Enterprise unprovoked, Dominion blew up a freaking Galaxy-class in a suicide run, killing hundreds.
8472 was a lone alien, scared and stuck on a Borg cube who ran into a Starfleet away team and lashed out.
If they won't respond to your hails, run away and let them deal with the Borg. That way you get a head start to warn the Federation, and the Borg go kablooie.
--Easy answer: Blast the hell out of the first couple waves of Kazon, then have the blob use the array for you and leave some torps behind as you go. If you're lucky, you'll get a glimpse of Kazon ships closing in on the array as it starts to explode, and you'll have happy memories of what you imagined their expressions to be like at that moment.
I still think that it reflects poorly on Janeway that she made the decision she did.
Again, hindsight.
At the time, Janeway had to make a fast decision, and Voyager was barely fending off the one Kazon ship.
Also, if I remember rightly, the Caretaker said he didn't have the strength to send Voyager home.
Best: Janeway, Kira, Garak, The Doctor, Picard, Weyoun, Shran, "Trip" Tucker (he was just good eye candy), T'Pol, DS9 Worf (before then he was kind of annoying), Jadzia, Ezri
Worst: Travis Mayweather, Neelix, Wesley, Odo
Odo? Why Odo? I personally became quite fond of Odo and the sense about him.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Star Trek: Rubicon" Season 1, Season 2 A new era, a new time, a new crew, a new ship, a new mission...
"I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment because it will never come again."- Jean-Luc Picard
Except they had no idea how it worked and it's typically a bad idea to stick around while you're being shot at. In hindsight, Janeway could have done that, but in her situation with the time limit she had, she had to make a quick decision in line with her training and moral code.
She chose to save an innocent race of people. Starfleet obviously agreed with her.
A few problems with that:
1) She told Tuvok to figure out how to use the Array early on.
2) Voyager had plenty of time to get prepared before Kazon reinforcements arrive.
3) She chose to save the Ocampa who had basically devolved into being pets and couldn't be self-sufficient in 5 years time and two episodes later she refuses to warn a race that their power source is gonna blow up their planet citing the Prime Directive (which Paris points out is bull**** and the only retort she can give is "Thats an order").
And before you lecture me on the PD, here's a quote from Kirk and Spock on it.
From "The World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky"
Spock: "Sir, informing these people they are on a spaceship, may violate the Prime Directive."
Kirk: "The people of Yonada may be forever changed by this experience but ANYTHING has to be better than the death of a civilization."
Spock: "Logical. Flawlessly logical."
4) It is the duty of any officer to do what is best for their crew. Even if that means their life. Stick someone on the Array to ensure it gets blown up when Voyager leaves. Even freaking TROI learned that lesson.
Sorry, Janeway was a genocidal tyrant and none of the arguments I've heard have sufficiently backed up her positions.
Acamarians shot the Enterprise unprovoked, Dominion blew up a freaking Galaxy-class in a suicide run, killing hundreds.
8472 was a lone alien, scared and stuck on a Borg cube who ran into a Starfleet away team and lashed out.
If they won't respond to your hails, run away and let them deal with the Borg. That way you get a head start to warn the Federation, and the Borg go kablooie.
I'll have to check, but unless I'm mistaken, they never shot the Enterprise in the episode. We are talking about 'Riker romances alien maid, maid turns out to be sleeper agent sent to kill hostile clan leader, cue tragic scene where Riker uses excessive force and vaporises maid', right?
Again, Federation trespassed into Dominion Space. It was mentioned in the episode. That is hardly 'unprovoked'.
That 'lone alien' managed to kill a whole cube's worth of Borg drones and poisoned Janeway's Ops Officer.
Again, hindsight. Janeway, at the time, didn't know the Borg started it. All she knew was that 8472 poisoned a member of her crew and attacked her ship unprovoked. By the time she did learn the truth, the Borg effectively had control of Voyager from one Cargo Bay.
Admiral Nechayev got her orders from the Federation Council too. Where's the difference?
Fleet perception. Nechayev was no one's errand girl, and actively went out and about to deliver her orders in person. Janeway was a sidelined desk jockey.
And as for 8472 poisoning Harry... As mentioned above, it lashed out. That Harry suffered an extreme allergic reaction to it was not its fault or intention, just unfortunate biological incompatibility.
good characters: qwark
this guy got some insightful lines written for him, without the drawback of being captain jean luc pickle. and was generally consistent as a character.
Comments
Um...
Picard was assimilated at the time. He was not legally or morally responsible for Locutus's actions. I'm surprised that he wasn't in therapy for it, but they DID try to get him to stay away from the Borg in First Contact. So Command aren't complete idiots.
Gowron? Really? I loved him. He sort of went off the rails towards the end of DS9, but he was an interesting character. Much more depth to him than your average Klingon.
Never mind that, the way he talked was hilarious. All together now: Woooof.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And First Contact with the Klingons went just soooooo well, did it? How about First Contact with the Romulans? The Andorians? The Tellarites?
Not one of those was a peaceful First Contact. Hell, the Romulans started a war with Earth.
And yet, we now have an alliance between the Feds and a significant Romulan faction. Not to mention the major Fed-Klingon alliance during the TNG era.
First Contact rarely goes well, ESPECIALLY when it's between some crack troops and a stranded Undine on a Borg ship. Both sides are in a trigger-happy mood there.
Its the way he went out like a punk i expected more as in a second klingon civil war between gowron and martok with the empire hanging in the balance.
'Glory to you... and your hoouuusssseeee!'
I'm just going to leave this here.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
You've kinda proved my point. With the Klingons, when they attacked Enterprise, Archer shot back. When the Romulans attacked the Coalition, they fought back (and tried to ally with the Klingons, an unofficial enemy). Voyager was attacked and they fought back the only way they could.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Picard got shot to the other side of the universe in season 1 of TNG. He was back home by the end of the episode.
Janeway took 7 seasons to do something that she could've EASILY done in episode 1.
Yeah, and Archer wasn't a very good captain either.
When Picard got attacked by Acamarian rebels, did he blow them out of space? No.
When the Sisko got attacked by the Jem'Hadar, did the Federation immediately retaliate against the Dominion's unprovoked attacks? No.
Seriously, it's not that hard to give 8472 a shot, especially if you have an extraction plan for your negotiation team.
Arguably, to preserve the balance of power under the Prime Directive.
Also, Picard had a time-travelling alien who through sci-magic was able to manipulate warp fields. Janeway had a Talaxian, an Ocampa and a dying blob...
Picard may have had a slightly better hand.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Worst: Archer, Deanna Troi, Tom Paris, Torres, Beverly Crusher
Yeah, but...
Time delayed mines and/or torps. Leave those lying around really close to the array, and use the array .001 seconds before they blow.
Back home, safe and sound, the Kazon are stuck, everything's happily ever after.
Except that Neelix is now in the Federation, but I suppose that even that doomsday scenario is within Picard's or Sisko's repertoire.
Except they had no idea how it worked and it's typically a bad idea to stick around while you're being shot at. In hindsight, Janeway could have done that, but in her situation with the time limit she had, she had to make a quick decision in line with her training and moral code.
She chose to save an innocent race of people. Starfleet obviously agreed with her.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
The Acamarians didn't poison one of Picard's crew and the Jem'Hadar were reacting to a territorial infringement (and served a Galaxy-Class-sized notice on the Federation). Species 8472, as far as Janeway knew at the time, attacked her ship and crew with little provocation with the armament to vaporise Voyager in seconds if they wanted (not to mention the ability to blow up a planet) and, unless I'm mistaken, did not communicate with Voyager despite attempts from Voyager until the Terradome episode.
Personally, I think I could forgive her for getting help from the only nearby source in order to stop a clear and present threat, given the information she had available at the time.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
--Dying blob that knows how to work the array.
--Torpedo bay full of blowy-up stuff.
--Somewhat superior tech to the Kazon.
--Easy answer: Blast the hell out of the first couple waves of Kazon, then have the blob use the array for you and leave some torps behind as you go. If you're lucky, you'll get a glimpse of Kazon ships closing in on the array as it starts to explode, and you'll have happy memories of what you imagined their expressions to be like at that moment.
I still think that it reflects poorly on Janeway that she made the decision she did.
Acamarians shot the Enterprise unprovoked, Dominion blew up a freaking Galaxy-class in a suicide run, killing hundreds.
8472 was a lone alien, scared and stuck on a Borg cube who ran into a Starfleet away team and lashed out.
If they won't respond to your hails, run away and let them deal with the Borg. That way you get a head start to warn the Federation, and the Borg go kablooie.
Again, hindsight.
At the time, Janeway had to make a fast decision, and Voyager was barely fending off the one Kazon ship.
Also, if I remember rightly, the Caretaker said he didn't have the strength to send Voyager home.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Fine, if the Narrative demands that you get stuck in the Delta Quadrant, then you get stuck in the Delta Quadrant.
And get blown up by those Kazon who are now pissed at you for blowing up that thing they wanted to steal.
"Star Trek: Rubicon" Season 1, Season 2 A new era, a new time, a new crew, a new ship, a new mission...
"I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment because it will never come again."- Jean-Luc Picard
A few problems with that:
1) She told Tuvok to figure out how to use the Array early on.
2) Voyager had plenty of time to get prepared before Kazon reinforcements arrive.
3) She chose to save the Ocampa who had basically devolved into being pets and couldn't be self-sufficient in 5 years time and two episodes later she refuses to warn a race that their power source is gonna blow up their planet citing the Prime Directive (which Paris points out is bull**** and the only retort she can give is "Thats an order").
And before you lecture me on the PD, here's a quote from Kirk and Spock on it.
From "The World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky"
Spock: "Sir, informing these people they are on a spaceship, may violate the Prime Directive."
Kirk: "The people of Yonada may be forever changed by this experience but ANYTHING has to be better than the death of a civilization."
Spock: "Logical. Flawlessly logical."
4) It is the duty of any officer to do what is best for their crew. Even if that means their life. Stick someone on the Array to ensure it gets blown up when Voyager leaves. Even freaking TROI learned that lesson.
Sorry, Janeway was a genocidal tyrant and none of the arguments I've heard have sufficiently backed up her positions.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
I'll have to check, but unless I'm mistaken, they never shot the Enterprise in the episode. We are talking about 'Riker romances alien maid, maid turns out to be sleeper agent sent to kill hostile clan leader, cue tragic scene where Riker uses excessive force and vaporises maid', right?
Again, Federation trespassed into Dominion Space. It was mentioned in the episode. That is hardly 'unprovoked'.
That 'lone alien' managed to kill a whole cube's worth of Borg drones and poisoned Janeway's Ops Officer.
Again, hindsight. Janeway, at the time, didn't know the Borg started it. All she knew was that 8472 poisoned a member of her crew and attacked her ship unprovoked. By the time she did learn the truth, the Borg effectively had control of Voyager from one Cargo Bay.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Fleet perception. Nechayev was no one's errand girl, and actively went out and about to deliver her orders in person. Janeway was a sidelined desk jockey.
And as for 8472 poisoning Harry... As mentioned above, it lashed out. That Harry suffered an extreme allergic reaction to it was not its fault or intention, just unfortunate biological incompatibility.
His legal responsibility for those actions was never explored in the show. But would have been in an actual real life military setting.
His moral responsibility would also have been explored, probably by the man himself.
Setting that aside, there's no way he'd have continued captaining a starship after that incident.
Who's Qwark and what show was he on?