1) She told Tuvok to figure out how to use the Array early on.
2) Voyager had plenty of time to get prepared before Kazon reinforcements arrive.
3) She chose to save the Ocampa who had basically devolved into being pets and couldn't be self-sufficient in 5 years time and two episodes later she refuses to warn a race that their power source is gonna blow up their planet citing the Prime Directive (which Paris points out is bull**** and the only retort she can give is "Thats an order").
And before you lecture me on the PD, here's a quote from Kirk and Spock on it.
From "The World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky"
Spock: "Sir, informing these people they are on a spaceship, may violate the Prime Directive."
Kirk: "The people of Yonada may be forever changed by this experience but ANYTHING has to be better than the death of a civilization."
Spock: "Logical. Flawlessly logical."
4) It is the duty of any officer to do what is best for their crew. Even if that means their life. Stick someone on the Array to ensure it gets blown up when Voyager leaves. Even freaking TROI learned that lesson.
Sorry, Janeway was a genocidal tyrant and none of the arguments I've heard have sufficiently backed up her positions.
Woah, there! Where did 'genocidal' come from?
And, she gave her crew a choice to stay on a planet inhabited by humans or keep trying to get home, knowing it could strand Voyager there permanently. That isn't exactly tyrannical.
Fleet perception. Nechayev was no one's errand girl, and actively went out and about to deliver her orders in person. Janeway was a sidelined desk jockey.
And as for 8472 poisoning Harry... As mentioned above, it lashed out. That Harry suffered an extreme allergic reaction to it was not its fault or intention, just unfortunate biological incompatibility.
Both of those statements are idle speculation. One communique is not enough to say she was 'sidelined'. We only saw Admiral Hanson via communique, but he certainly wasn't 'sidelined'... he was 'frontlined'.
And I find it hard to believe the 8472 had no idea the effect its attack would have on Harry, given the Borg drones it piled up.
I wouldn't judge Janeway by her decisions in Scorpion.
After all those 2 are the by far best Voyager episodes, and the only one where Janeway actually acted like a human being and there fore as a more interesting character then in any other episode.
The decision may have been wrong, my have been right, but its possibly the only time where Janeway was not UNQUESTIONABLE right, which again, is the reason why this episodes were good IMO.
I wouldn't judge Janeway by her decisions in Scorpion.
After all those 2 are the by far best Voyager episodes, and the only one where Janeway actually acted like a human being and there fore as a more interesting character then in any other episode.
The decision may have been wrong, my have been right, but its possibly the only time where Janeway was not UNQUESTIONABLE right, which again, is the reason why this episodes were good IMO.
And, she gave her crew a choice to stay on a planet inhabited by humans or keep trying to get home, knowing it could strand Voyager there permanently. That isn't exactly tyrannical.
Comes from the following:
* Refuse to warn a planet about their dangerous power source even with an anonymous transmission
* When a transporter accident merges two crewmen into one and the new lifeform refuses to give up its life (technically Tuvok and Neelix were dead already) to save the other two (Which is completely valid), and the Doctor tells its unethical and refuses to kill an innocent, she does it personally.
* The whole Species 8472 thing, and not counting Scorpion in their last encounter she armed for war despite quoting a regulation that states she is supposed to seek out a peaceful resolution BEFORE arming herself (in the same sentence she says shes gonna arm herself no less!). (Oh and then to give "peace" she gives them our only effective weapon against them, ensuring Starfleet will never have a deterrent against the Undine).
* Threatened to extract nanoprobes forcibly from Seven's bloodstream when they weren't able to replicate them.
* GOT HERSELF ASSIMILATED SO SHE COULD START A BORG REBELLION IN VIOLATION OF STARFLEET REGULATIONS (something Picard wasn't allowed to even be tangetially involved in during the Klingon Civil War).
And these are just the biggest examples. Sorry, if she's not genocidal, she's at the very least a mass murderer with a hard on killing and suffering. Voyager did have a reputation in the Delta Quadrant as a ship of death.
I'll have to check, but unless I'm mistaken, they never shot the Enterprise in the episode. We are talking about 'Riker romances alien maid, maid turns out to be sleeper agent sent to kill hostile clan leader, cue tragic scene where Riker uses excessive force and vaporises maid', right?
Again, Federation trespassed into Dominion Space. It was mentioned in the episode. That is hardly 'unprovoked'.
That 'lone alien' managed to kill a whole cube's worth of Borg drones and poisoned Janeway's Ops Officer.
Again, hindsight. Janeway, at the time, didn't know the Borg started it. All she knew was that 8472 poisoned a member of her crew and attacked her ship unprovoked. By the time she did learn the truth, the Borg effectively had control of Voyager from one Cargo Bay.
Yeah, the Acamarian rebels shot the Enterprise, and attacked an away team early on.
Dominion waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overreacted, and the Feds didn't have a clue that those planets were claimed. Close enough to unprovoked, from the Fed perspective.
Yeah, so it kills about 10,000 of your civilization's worst enemies and hits your most incompetent underling, who was, given 8472's vastly nonhumaoid appearance, quite likely to have been mistaken for a Borg.
Janeway should've at least suspected that the Borg started it. And no matter what, allying with the f*cking BORG was an outright evil move.
Picard refused to take an opportunity to destroy the Borg, which led to the deaths / assimilation of a few million more innocent people, if not more. What does that make him?
According to some a hero, for putting his own personal morals above the lives of everyone killed in the Battle of Sector 001, the Borg - 8472 war, Unimatrix 0, and in the Delta Quadrant in general.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Janeway should've at least suspected that the Borg started it. And no matter what, allying with the f*cking BORG was an outright evil move.
This. The Borgs' entire purpose in life is to assimilate or destroy every thinking creature in the entire galaxy, and has been from day one. It doesn't take a genius to guess why the Undine would be cheesed off at them.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
* Refuse to warn a planet about their dangerous power source even with an anonymous transmission
* When a transporter accident merges two crewmen into one and the new lifeform refuses to give up its life (technically Tuvok and Neelix were dead already) to save the other two (Which is completely valid), and the Doctor tells its unethical and refuses to kill an innocent, she does it personally.
* The whole Species 8472 thing, and not counting Scorpion in their last encounter she armed for war despite quoting a regulation that states she is supposed to seek out a peaceful resolution BEFORE arming herself (in the same sentence she says shes gonna arm herself no less!). (Oh and then to give "peace" she gives them our only effective weapon against them, ensuring Starfleet will never have a deterrent against the Undine).
* Threatened to extract nanoprobes forcibly from Seven's bloodstream when they weren't able to replicate them.
* GOT HERSELF ASSIMILATED SO SHE COULD START A BORG REBELLION IN VIOLATION OF STARFLEET REGULATIONS (something Picard wasn't allowed to even be tangetially involved in during the Klingon Civil War).
And these are just the biggest examples. Sorry, if she's not genocidal, she's at the very least a mass murderer with a hard on killing and suffering. Voyager did have a reputation in the Delta Quadrant as a ship of death.
1) Prime Directive.
2)Yeah... 'the needs of the many...'
3) I've spent most of this thread explaining why that isn't treason or murder.
4) Not exactly genocide.
5) But Picard was supposed to wipe out the Borg? As Q would say 'savage life forms don't follow even their OWN rules'.
* Refuse to warn a planet about their dangerous power source even with an anonymous transmission
* When a transporter accident merges two crewmen into one and the new lifeform refuses to give up its life (technically Tuvok and Neelix were dead already) to save the other two (Which is completely valid), and the Doctor tells its unethical and refuses to kill an innocent, she does it personally.
* The whole Species 8472 thing, and not counting Scorpion in their last encounter she armed for war despite quoting a regulation that states she is supposed to seek out a peaceful resolution BEFORE arming herself (in the same sentence she says shes gonna arm herself no less!). (Oh and then to give "peace" she gives them our only effective weapon against them, ensuring Starfleet will never have a deterrent against the Undine).
* Threatened to extract nanoprobes forcibly from Seven's bloodstream when they weren't able to replicate them.
* GOT HERSELF ASSIMILATED SO SHE COULD START A BORG REBELLION IN VIOLATION OF STARFLEET REGULATIONS (something Picard wasn't allowed to even be tangetially involved in during the Klingon Civil War).
And these are just the biggest examples. Sorry, if she's not genocidal, she's at the very least a mass murderer with a hard on killing and suffering. Voyager did have a reputation in the Delta Quadrant as a ship of death.
lol.... in one breath you curse Janeway for fighting the Undine, and the next you curse Janeway for making peace.....
*laughs maniacally*
Oh and "Tuvix" was second only to Threshold in being a bad episode.... I like to write it off as a holonovel written by one of the crew.
Yeah, the Acamarian rebels shot the Enterprise, and attacked an away team early on.
Dominion waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overreacted, and the Feds didn't have a clue that those planets were claimed. Close enough to unprovoked, from the Fed perspective.
Yeah, so it kills about 10,000 of your civilization's worst enemies and hits your most incompetent underling, who was, given 8472's vastly nonhumaoid appearance, quite likely to have been mistaken for a Borg.
Janeway should've at least suspected that the Borg started it. And no matter what, allying with the f*cking BORG was an outright evil move.
So was firing trilithium resin into the atmosphere of a civilian colony, but Starfleet apparently considered THAT acceptable.
[QUOTE=ryan218;15115571]Both of those statements are idle speculation. One communique is not enough to say she was 'sidelined'. We only saw Admiral Hanson via communique, but he certainly wasn't 'sidelined'... he was 'frontlined'.
And I find it hard to believe the 8472 had no idea the effect its attack would have on Harry, given the Borg drones it piled up.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I am being facetious, because IMHO Janeway was an unstable and incompetent officer. And absolutely, Admiral Hanson still commanded starships. As did Admiral Ross. Admiral Dougherty oversaw a mission to benefit the lives of everyone in the Federation. Admiral Nechayev would travel to give orders... I forget if Admiral Leyton retained command, but he definitely had officers under him who's strings he could pull. Picard was never Janeway's puppet...
It killed the drones, but Harry reacted to what the Doctor described as stray cells. He did not describe the process as an intentional infection or poisoning.
* Refuse to warn a planet about their dangerous power source even with an anonymous transmission
* When a transporter accident merges two crewmen into one and the new lifeform refuses to give up its life (technically Tuvok and Neelix were dead already) to save the other two (Which is completely valid), and the Doctor tells its unethical and refuses to kill an innocent, she does it personally.
* The whole Species 8472 thing, and not counting Scorpion in their last encounter she armed for war despite quoting a regulation that states she is supposed to seek out a peaceful resolution BEFORE arming herself (in the same sentence she says shes gonna arm herself no less!). (Oh and then to give "peace" she gives them our only effective weapon against them, ensuring Starfleet will never have a deterrent against the Undine).
* Threatened to extract nanoprobes forcibly from Seven's bloodstream when they weren't able to replicate them.
* GOT HERSELF ASSIMILATED SO SHE COULD START A BORG REBELLION IN VIOLATION OF STARFLEET REGULATIONS (something Picard wasn't allowed to even be tangetially involved in during the Klingon Civil War).
And these are just the biggest examples. Sorry, if she's not genocidal, she's at the very least a mass murderer with a hard on killing and suffering. Voyager did have a reputation in the Delta Quadrant as a ship of death.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Janeway is criminally incompetent at BEST.
To compare Janeway to my character Three, who is openly sociopathic and a repressed homocidal maniac:
* Three would've broken the Prime directive in that case.
*Three would've agreed with the Doctor.
*In Scorpion, Three would've followed Starfleet First Contact protocol, as stipulated in her Contract, and would've tried to ally with the Undine. If her injured officer had died...she would've started killing Undine until she found the one responsible, torn it to shreds, and spaced the bits. Then she'd steal Undine tech and blow the hell out of the Borg.
*Never, under any circumstances, would even think of threatening such a procedure to an unwilling crewman.
*Um, yeah, she'd do that, but only as a last resort. If Three were in Endgame, she'd pull that trick I had her do for LC 57 and replace her liver and intestines with an antimatter bomb.
So Janeway does things that a psychopathic living weapon with an utterly alien thought process would never even consider. She's incompetent at best, and outright evil at worst.
So was firing trilithium resin into the atmosphere of a civilian colony, but Starfleet apparently considered THAT acceptable.
I don't. "For the Uniform" was just as much of a wallbanger of an episode as "Scorpion".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
1) Prime Directive. As I established earlier, vioalting the directive to SAVE a race is ok.
2)Yeah... 'the needs of the many...' So that justifies a murder? They were already DEAD!
3) I've spent most of this thread explaining why that isn't treason or murder. You keep believing that. IT IS TREASON. She gave a weapon to the ENEMY. If someone in WWII gave the Germans our prototypes for the A-bomb to ensure peaec that would be ok?
4) Not exactly genocide. Still cruel and unnecessary as well as a violation of her body.
5) But Picard was supposed to wipe out the Borg? As Q would say 'savage life forms don't follow even their OWN rules'. The incident in I Borg is very complicated. Up until that point it was impossible to think of a Borg as an individual and Hugh was the first real time that Borg drones were considered to be all the same being. As Picard himself points out "The right thing to do may not be the moral thing to do." He chose the moral route. Janeway chooses "I want to see the Borg kill each other!"
Janeway has a precident for killing or harming first and asking later.
This. The Borgs' entire purpose in life is to assimilate or destroy every thinking creature in the entire galaxy, and has been from day one. It doesn't take a genius to guess why the Undine would be cheesed off at them.
Here comes the magic word again. Ready for it? H... Hi... Hindsight!
You know, like how the Treaty of Versailles was an unfair POS but everyone went along with it anyway? Or how smoking in a car with a child is maybe a bad idea?
It's easy to condemn her for something based on information she DID NOT HAVE at the time! As far as she knew, 8472 attacked Voyager and its crew unprovoked. She reacted. If she hadn't - now that would have been a court-martial offence.
I don't. "For the Uniform" was just as much of a wallbanger of an episode as "Scorpion".
Agreed.
Can we all agree that Voyager was inconsistently and poorly written, and leave it at that? Because this is getting nuts, with the anti-Janeway crowd calling her worse than Hitler (pardon the Godwin) and the pro-Janeway crowd practically beatifying her.
Can we all agree that Voyager was inconsistently and poorly written, and leave it at that? Because this is getting nuts, with the anti-Janeway crowd calling her worse than Hitler (pardon the Godwin) and the pro-Janeway crowd practically beatifying her.
I wouldnt go as far as saying she was like hitler more like napoleon bonapart type of tyrant.
Can we all agree that Voyager was inconsistently and poorly written, and leave it at that? Because this is getting nuts, with the anti-Janeway crowd calling her worse than Hitler (pardon the Godwin) and the pro-Janeway crowd practically beatifying her.
I think we can all agree as well that the main reason she got promoted to Admiral was because Starfleet knew she'd be much less dangerous driving a desk in comparison to a starship.
Here comes the magic word again. Ready for it? H... Hi... Hindsight!
You know, like how the Treaty of Versailles was an unfair POS but everyone went along with it anyway? Or how smoking in a car with a child is maybe a bad idea?
It's easy to condemn her for something based on information she DID NOT HAVE at the time! As far as she knew, 8472 attacked Voyager and its crew unprovoked. She reacted. If she hadn't - now that would have been a court-martial offence.
THAT'S THE F*CKING BORG WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!
The same Borg that attacked the Federation with no provocation whatsoever, have been clear from day 1 that they want to assimilate and/or destroy everything, and killed billions of innocents.
Janeway should've fought the Borg, or at least run. Allying with the Borg to fight a species that she's just met, who are engaged in fighting the Borg?
Can we all agree that Voyager was inconsistently and poorly written, and leave it at that? Because this is getting nuts, with the anti-Janeway crowd calling her worse than Hitler (pardon the Godwin) and the pro-Janeway crowd practically beatifying her.
Agreed. And will also say that I agree with the arguments that For the Uniform was character assasination for Sisko as well. Extreme actions never justify anything.
[HumorMode] Although calling her worse than hitler isnt fair. Janeway didnt need internment camps, she had Harry Kim to kill on a regular basis and Neelix to torture the audience.[/HumorMode]
Here comes the magic word again. Ready for it? H... Hi... Hindsight!
You know, like how the Treaty of Versailles was an unfair POS but everyone went along with it anyway? Or how smoking in a car with a child is maybe a bad idea?
It's easy to condemn her for something based on information she DID NOT HAVE at the time! As far as she knew, 8472 attacked Voyager and its crew unprovoked. She reacted. If she hadn't - now that would have been a court-martial offence.
Hindsight doesn't enter into it. "You will be assimilated" et cetera was the mantra of the Borg Collective from their first appearance to their last. Expecting them to have acted any differently against 8472 with the precedents the entire Alpha Quadrant was given on multiple occasions is insane and stupid.
Why would any rational captain have believed for even a moment that the Borg were telling the truth about having been attacked unprovoked?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Fleet perception? LMAO! Where was this confirmed or even mentioned on a TV show or film? Come on man, you're reaching. Janeway handed out orders to Picard just like Nechayev did. Sorry, but canon proves you wrong.
As above, I am being facetious, but as above, other Admirals were definitely more hands on. Janeway was incompetent, inconsistent, and in at least one instance, made up regulations to try and gain superiority over a fellow Starfleet Captain (who arguab y was a far superior officer) To me, her appearance in Nemesis, while an amusing cameo, came off as a sideways transfer, not a promotion earned for superior service or some other deed of moral excellence. As mentioned unthread, she committed actions which IRL would be capital military offences. I imagine (and I admit, this is just the speculation of my imagination) that some of her more 'questionable' decisions were overlooked by command because bringing Voyager back in one piece would have made her a celebrity, but I suspect command would have been wary to put her back in The Big Chair given the nature of those decisions, so they gave her a token promotion and a job at command where they could keep an eye on her.
To compare Janeway to my character Three, who is openly sociopathic and a repressed homocidal maniac:
* Three would've broken the Prime directive in that case.
*Three would've agreed with the Doctor.
*In Scorpion, Three would've followed Starfleet First Contact protocol, as stipulated in her Contract, and would've tried to ally with the Undine. If her injured officer had died...she would've started killing Undine until she found the one responsible, torn it to shreds, and spaced the bits. Then she'd steal Undine tech and blow the hell out of the Borg.
*Never, under any circumstances, would even think of threatening such a procedure to an unwilling crewman.
*Um, yeah, she'd do that, but only as a last resort. If Three were in Endgame, she'd pull that trick I had her do for LC 57 and replace her liver and intestines with an antimatter bomb.
So Janeway does things that a psychopathic living weapon with an utterly alien thought process would never even consider. She's incompetent at best, and outright evil at worst.
But Three, by your own admission, is almost a robot, minus her emotional instability. She HAS to obey her contract to the letter (except when it threatens those she cares about or her own survival or survival of another unit). Even Picard broke regulations when it seemed the right thing to do. Even if Three thought something was morally wrong, she'd do it because her contract said she had to. Janeway can actually act on her conscience, so, while your points may have merit, the comparison isn't exactly fair. It's sorta like me comparing Napoleon Bonaparte to Genghis Khan (okay, maybe LOOSELY like).
Also, any chance you'd feel like doing a fanfic thread about Three? I find her character really fascinating.
So was firing trilithium resin into the atmosphere of a civilian colony, but Starfleet apparently considered THAT acceptable.
In the Sisko's defense, he was careful to choose a dosage that would take a long time to seriously hurt anyone.
In Janeway's defense, first contact with the Undine resulted in the Undine declaring war on the Federation. The Borg were willing to negotiate a truce, the Undine weren't. Sure, the Borg are untrustworthy, but it's a choice of getting shot in the face now or maybe getting shot in the back later...
Of course we later find out the REAL reason for the Borg-Undine war, and that the Borg were being setup to look like chumps by a revenge crazed madman....
Agreed. And will also say that I agree with the arguments that For the Uniform was character assasination for Sisko as well. Extreme actions never justify anything.
[HumorMode] Although calling her worse than hitler isnt fair. Janeway didnt need internment camps, she had Harry Kim to kill on a regular basis and Neelix to torture the audience.[/HumorMode]
But unlike the many exploits of Janeway, the Episode never pretended that Sisko was right in his action during that Episode. I just kind of lacked any... consequences...
But Three, by your own admission, is almost a robot, minus her emotional instability. She HAS to obey her contract to the letter (except when it threatens those she cares about or her own survival or survival of another unit). Even Picard broke regulations when it seemed the right thing to do. Even if Three thought something was morally wrong, she'd do it because her contract said she had to. Janeway can actually act on her conscience, so, while your points may have merit, the comparison isn't exactly fair. It's sorta like me comparing Napoleon Bonaparte to Genghis Khan (okay, maybe LOOSELY like).
Also, any chance you'd feel like doing a fanfic thread about Three? I find her character really fascinating.
No. She CAN disobey the contract, she just chooses not to. It's a professionalism thing; Contract obedience helps the units keep their homocidal tendencies under control.
And note that the Contract goes out the window if someone she cares about gets killed. And she breaks regulations all the time if she feels that it doing so follows the spirit of the law above the letter of the law; this generally works out well.
Yeah, I'm planning on writing a big one sooner or later.
Comments
Woah, there! Where did 'genocidal' come from?
And, she gave her crew a choice to stay on a planet inhabited by humans or keep trying to get home, knowing it could strand Voyager there permanently. That isn't exactly tyrannical.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
worst - New Kirk
Both of those statements are idle speculation. One communique is not enough to say she was 'sidelined'. We only saw Admiral Hanson via communique, but he certainly wasn't 'sidelined'... he was 'frontlined'.
And I find it hard to believe the 8472 had no idea the effect its attack would have on Harry, given the Borg drones it piled up.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
After all those 2 are the by far best Voyager episodes, and the only one where Janeway actually acted like a human being and there fore as a more interesting character then in any other episode.
The decision may have been wrong, my have been right, but its possibly the only time where Janeway was not UNQUESTIONABLE right, which again, is the reason why this episodes were good IMO.
But on Janeyway in general: I suggest to watch SF Debris Voyager reviews, (which can be found here http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews they summ it up perfectly.
^^^^This.^^^^ I completely (mostly) agree.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Comes from the following:
* Refuse to warn a planet about their dangerous power source even with an anonymous transmission
* When a transporter accident merges two crewmen into one and the new lifeform refuses to give up its life (technically Tuvok and Neelix were dead already) to save the other two (Which is completely valid), and the Doctor tells its unethical and refuses to kill an innocent, she does it personally.
* The whole Species 8472 thing, and not counting Scorpion in their last encounter she armed for war despite quoting a regulation that states she is supposed to seek out a peaceful resolution BEFORE arming herself (in the same sentence she says shes gonna arm herself no less!). (Oh and then to give "peace" she gives them our only effective weapon against them, ensuring Starfleet will never have a deterrent against the Undine).
* Threatened to extract nanoprobes forcibly from Seven's bloodstream when they weren't able to replicate them.
* GOT HERSELF ASSIMILATED SO SHE COULD START A BORG REBELLION IN VIOLATION OF STARFLEET REGULATIONS (something Picard wasn't allowed to even be tangetially involved in during the Klingon Civil War).
And these are just the biggest examples. Sorry, if she's not genocidal, she's at the very least a mass murderer with a hard on killing and suffering. Voyager did have a reputation in the Delta Quadrant as a ship of death.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Yeah, the Acamarian rebels shot the Enterprise, and attacked an away team early on.
Dominion waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overreacted, and the Feds didn't have a clue that those planets were claimed. Close enough to unprovoked, from the Fed perspective.
Yeah, so it kills about 10,000 of your civilization's worst enemies and hits your most incompetent underling, who was, given 8472's vastly nonhumaoid appearance, quite likely to have been mistaken for a Borg.
Janeway should've at least suspected that the Borg started it. And no matter what, allying with the f*cking BORG was an outright evil move.
According to some a hero, for putting his own personal morals above the lives of everyone killed in the Battle of Sector 001, the Borg - 8472 war, Unimatrix 0, and in the Delta Quadrant in general.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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This. The Borgs' entire purpose in life is to assimilate or destroy every thinking creature in the entire galaxy, and has been from day one. It doesn't take a genius to guess why the Undine would be cheesed off at them.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
1) Prime Directive.
2)Yeah... 'the needs of the many...'
3) I've spent most of this thread explaining why that isn't treason or murder.
4) Not exactly genocide.
5) But Picard was supposed to wipe out the Borg? As Q would say 'savage life forms don't follow even their OWN rules'.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
*laughs maniacally*
Oh and "Tuvix" was second only to Threshold in being a bad episode.... I like to write it off as a holonovel written by one of the crew.
My character Tsin'xing
So was firing trilithium resin into the atmosphere of a civilian colony, but Starfleet apparently considered THAT acceptable.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
And I find it hard to believe the 8472 had no idea the effect its attack would have on Harry, given the Borg drones it piled up.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I am being facetious, because IMHO Janeway was an unstable and incompetent officer. And absolutely, Admiral Hanson still commanded starships. As did Admiral Ross. Admiral Dougherty oversaw a mission to benefit the lives of everyone in the Federation. Admiral Nechayev would travel to give orders... I forget if Admiral Leyton retained command, but he definitely had officers under him who's strings he could pull. Picard was never Janeway's puppet...
It killed the drones, but Harry reacted to what the Doctor described as stray cells. He did not describe the process as an intentional infection or poisoning.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Janeway is criminally incompetent at BEST.
To compare Janeway to my character Three, who is openly sociopathic and a repressed homocidal maniac:
* Three would've broken the Prime directive in that case.
*Three would've agreed with the Doctor.
*In Scorpion, Three would've followed Starfleet First Contact protocol, as stipulated in her Contract, and would've tried to ally with the Undine. If her injured officer had died...she would've started killing Undine until she found the one responsible, torn it to shreds, and spaced the bits. Then she'd steal Undine tech and blow the hell out of the Borg.
*Never, under any circumstances, would even think of threatening such a procedure to an unwilling crewman.
*Um, yeah, she'd do that, but only as a last resort. If Three were in Endgame, she'd pull that trick I had her do for LC 57 and replace her liver and intestines with an antimatter bomb.
So Janeway does things that a psychopathic living weapon with an utterly alien thought process would never even consider. She's incompetent at best, and outright evil at worst.
I don't. "For the Uniform" was just as much of a wallbanger of an episode as "Scorpion".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Janeway has a precident for killing or harming first and asking later.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Here comes the magic word again. Ready for it? H... Hi... Hindsight!
You know, like how the Treaty of Versailles was an unfair POS but everyone went along with it anyway? Or how smoking in a car with a child is maybe a bad idea?
It's easy to condemn her for something based on information she DID NOT HAVE at the time! As far as she knew, 8472 attacked Voyager and its crew unprovoked. She reacted. If she hadn't - now that would have been a court-martial offence.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Agreed.
Can we all agree that Voyager was inconsistently and poorly written, and leave it at that? Because this is getting nuts, with the anti-Janeway crowd calling her worse than Hitler (pardon the Godwin) and the pro-Janeway crowd practically beatifying her.
I wouldnt go as far as saying she was like hitler more like napoleon bonapart type of tyrant.
I think we can all agree as well that the main reason she got promoted to Admiral was because Starfleet knew she'd be much less dangerous driving a desk in comparison to a starship.
THAT'S THE F*CKING BORG WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!
The same Borg that attacked the Federation with no provocation whatsoever, have been clear from day 1 that they want to assimilate and/or destroy everything, and killed billions of innocents.
Janeway should've fought the Borg, or at least run. Allying with the Borg to fight a species that she's just met, who are engaged in fighting the Borg?
Stupid at best, evil at worst.
Agreed. And will also say that I agree with the arguments that For the Uniform was character assasination for Sisko as well. Extreme actions never justify anything.
[HumorMode] Although calling her worse than hitler isnt fair. Janeway didnt need internment camps, she had Harry Kim to kill on a regular basis and Neelix to torture the audience.[/HumorMode]
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Why would any rational captain have believed for even a moment that the Borg were telling the truth about having been attacked unprovoked?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
As above, I am being facetious, but as above, other Admirals were definitely more hands on. Janeway was incompetent, inconsistent, and in at least one instance, made up regulations to try and gain superiority over a fellow Starfleet Captain (who arguab y was a far superior officer) To me, her appearance in Nemesis, while an amusing cameo, came off as a sideways transfer, not a promotion earned for superior service or some other deed of moral excellence. As mentioned unthread, she committed actions which IRL would be capital military offences. I imagine (and I admit, this is just the speculation of my imagination) that some of her more 'questionable' decisions were overlooked by command because bringing Voyager back in one piece would have made her a celebrity, but I suspect command would have been wary to put her back in The Big Chair given the nature of those decisions, so they gave her a token promotion and a job at command where they could keep an eye on her.
But Three, by your own admission, is almost a robot, minus her emotional instability. She HAS to obey her contract to the letter (except when it threatens those she cares about or her own survival or survival of another unit). Even Picard broke regulations when it seemed the right thing to do. Even if Three thought something was morally wrong, she'd do it because her contract said she had to. Janeway can actually act on her conscience, so, while your points may have merit, the comparison isn't exactly fair. It's sorta like me comparing Napoleon Bonaparte to Genghis Khan (okay, maybe LOOSELY like).
Also, any chance you'd feel like doing a fanfic thread about Three? I find her character really fascinating.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
In Janeway's defense, first contact with the Undine resulted in the Undine declaring war on the Federation. The Borg were willing to negotiate a truce, the Undine weren't. Sure, the Borg are untrustworthy, but it's a choice of getting shot in the face now or maybe getting shot in the back later...
Of course we later find out the REAL reason for the Borg-Undine war, and that the Borg were being setup to look like chumps by a revenge crazed madman....
My character Tsin'xing
But unlike the many exploits of Janeway, the Episode never pretended that Sisko was right in his action during that Episode. I just kind of lacked any... consequences...
No. She CAN disobey the contract, she just chooses not to. It's a professionalism thing; Contract obedience helps the units keep their homocidal tendencies under control.
And note that the Contract goes out the window if someone she cares about gets killed. And she breaks regulations all the time if she feels that it doing so follows the spirit of the law above the letter of the law; this generally works out well.
Yeah, I'm planning on writing a big one sooner or later.