It was when Spock confronted Khan over the Viewscreen. He didn't outright say it, but he did not deny it and certainly inferred that it was true.
At that point, I think Khan was entitled to be pissed at them (Starfleet in general) for how they'd used him (and again, Plot Necessity prevents him from saying that)
Didn't you? Huh, sorry. Must have confused you with someone else.
And, again, Kirk knew that Khan would likely kill Marcus no matter what happened. Ordering Scotty to stun him was the responsible thing to do to ensure that a prisoner is not executed without endangering anyone else. Personally, I think Kirk exercised a great deal of restraint for not shooting Marcus himself.
Nope, not me..
Possibly... On a personal level, I wouldn't've ordered Scotty to do that, but I would have given Marcus a beating and stunned him (wouldn't've killed him thought, I'd've enjoyed watching a court martial tearing him a new one too much... And I bet He'd've given the whole "You can't handle the truth!" rant then as well )
TEHO. I found Carol Marcus to be bland and something of a misogynistic fainting daisy myself.
Awesome, more Ms Marcus for me :cool: I mean sure, she's nowhere near as badass as Peta Wilson's Nikita, but she seemed like a nice enough girl, certainly not one to pass up
Awesome, more Ms Marcus for me :cool: I mean sure, she's nowhere near as badass as Peta Wilson's Nikita, but she seemed like a nice enough girl, certainly not one to pass up
As long as I get the Borg Queen.
Mmmmmm, Alice Kriege. I'd DEFINITELY let her assimilate me, LOL.
I wish the Section 31 members in ID (Marcus and the Vengeance crew) had worn the leather tunic thin Harris and Slone had worn, it would have gone well with the Vengeances black look, and provided a nice bit of continuity beyond just the name Section 31.
Also I wonder if Paxton and Marcus are related?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Awesome, more Ms Marcus for me :cool: I mean sure, she's nowhere near as badass as Peta Wilson's Nikita, but she seemed like a nice enough girl, certainly not one to pass up
Am I the only one who read that as 'Ms Marvel' the first time round? :P
Anyway, I'm personally not going to comment on my preferences in this matter, except with; Ezri Dax.
I wish the Section 31 members in ID (Marcus and the Vengeance crew) had worn the leather tunic thin Harris and Slone had worn, it would have gone well with the Vengeances black look, and provided a nice bit of continuity beyond just the name Section 31.
I wish the Section 31 members in ID (Marcus and the Vengeance crew) had worn the leather tunic thin Harris and Slone had worn, it would have gone well with the Vengeances black look, and provided a nice bit of continuity beyond just the name Section 31.
Also I wonder if Paxton and Marcus are related?
Yeah, their little 'secret club' uniforms were really stupid (looked like they were tailored for a Cardassian...) but then everything about Marcus and the Vengeance irritated me, so I can't really single those out for the hate
Yeah, their little 'secret club' uniforms were really stupid (looked like they were tailored for a Cardassian...) but then everything about Marcus and the Vengeance irritated me, so I can't really single those out for the hate
YES!! I get it now they do look like Cardassian civilians form DS9 .
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Section 31 is being controlled by the Obsidian Order :eek:.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
But New Kirk does get called out for it. Most of ST:ID was spent illustrating how he was an TRIBBLE and how he grows as a character, taking responsibility. He truly learns what it means to be a Starfleet Captain by the end of the film.
And, in respect to Pine's performance, I don't think he's a bad actor, New Kirk was just poorly written. There's only so much an actor can do with poor lines.
The whole point of early Into Darkness was showing that Kirk wasn't a perfect hero. He was a spoilt brat who had no business being on a Starship's Bridge. But, by the end of the film, he truly understood what it meant to be a Starfleet Captain. That's the point.
Wich is why Into Darkness was a FAR superior film to the 2009..."thing".... I dare to call that one a movie.
Still not GOOD.... Still not really a Star Trek movie..... but enjoyable as an action movie.
But it certainly can't undo its predecessor so... so no saving for the JarJar verse.
Khan ONLY turned on Kirk and co, because they betrayed him... Same as that loony TRIBBLE Marcus manipulated and blackmailed him... In the AlternaVerse, Khan was an honourable man. He gave his blood to the girl's parents in advance of the bombing, not as a bargaining point which could be later withheld. He tried to protect his crew from Marcus' loony schemes (I seriously could not hate a character more than I hate that mad TRIBBLE, especially when he starts delusionally monologuing what he wants to pretend Kirk has done. If I'd been Kirk, I'd've pistol-whipped him IN THE FACE on the Vengeance then hauled his TRIBBLE to the brig) and only turned on Kirk, after Kirk ordered Scotty to put him down (although I will admit, he didn't need to break Carol's hip like that...)
Well I certainly can't consider a man "Honorable" that bombs half a city including thousands of civilians. Thats terrorism. There is nothing honorable about that.
Actually I still found "new Khan" started up as a kind of promising character. I even liked how they actually managed to get "new Khan" much closer to the series appearance of "old Khan" then to his Movie appearance, since, after all, Old-movie-Khan was "kind" of a completely different character (after simply having gone nuts).
Up until they said "what the hell we can't have an actual character in ou movie, this is a JarJar movie after all", and just turned him into a mustage twirling villain. Supported by old Spocks bad cameo with his pseudo-fun-and-intimidating speech on how "just evil" Khan is by nature bla bla.. killing every character development.
Thing is, series-Khan was actually a kind of honorable man, with principles. He ended up as a bad guy, yes, but as a character he was more in the grey area.
Since THIS is the Khan the ID Khan mirrors, that WOULD be a character that can be reasoned with. And after all, even in the movie his motivation was originally relatable. It was only the old-khan-movie version that could not be reasoned with AFTER he went essentially mad (for relatable reasons, but this had not happened to the ID khan).
Ultimaltly, the movie would have been much better if it had ended differently. New Kirk and New Khan should have stayed teamed up until the Admiral was finally beaten, then Khan should have set "his original Plan" in motion to steal flee with that Avenger ship and his crew into some uncharted territories without actually starting a killing spree, opening a good setup for a sequel.
Well I certainly can't consider a man "Honorable" that bombs half a city including thousands of civilians. Thats terrorism. There is nothing honorable about that.
Don't exaggerate... He didn't 'bomb half a city' with thousands of civilians, he blew up a single specific military target, and there may have been some collateral damage (I say 'may', because that was never reliably established...
Ultimaltly, the movie would have been much better if it had ended differently. New Kirk and New Khan should have stayed teamed up until the Admiral was finally beaten, then Khan should have set "his original Plan" in motion to steal flee with that Avenger ship and his crew into some uncharted territories without actually starting a killing spree, opening a good setup for a sequel.
Totally agree. Even when Khan took over the Vengeance, he didn't just target San Francisco, he specifically targeted Starfleet Command... Plot Necessity made him a villain, but the motivations of the character go way beyond that, and could have been interestingly explored in other ways, rather than the tedious Pew Pew script JJ was lumbered with (damn, I actually just cut JJ a break :eek:)
Don't exaggerate... He didn't 'bomb half a city' with thousands of civilians, he blew up a single specific military target, and there may have been some collateral damage (I say 'may', because that was never reliably established...
Totally agree. Even when Khan took over the Vengeance, he didn't just target San Francisco, he specifically targeted Starfleet Command... Plot Necessity made him a villain, but the motivations of the character go way beyond that, and could have been interestingly explored in other ways, rather than the tedious Pew Pew script JJ was lumbered with (damn, I actually just cut JJ a break :eek:)
He flew a starship into San Francisco! I don't care if he targeted Starfleet Command, he still flew a starship into San Francisco!
Hey, I just love dangerous women. Jadzia Dax can gut you like a fish, as can K'ehlyr, Yar will beat you up with martial arts, and as for the Borg Queen...mmmm, sexy nanites.
I may have said Khan wasn't the villain of ID, that doesn't mean he wasn't a reprehensible TRIBBLE. He may have had a genuine concern for his crew, and perhaps even a idea for a future of a strong human race, but he was also a monster.
Compare him to Sloan in DS9, he may have infected an entire race for the good of the Federation, but nobody called him a hero, he was a necessary and sympathetic monster.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
If you or anyone else has spent anytime in this thread suggesting that Q could have just winked Voyager home, then no, you're not really giving the trope it's due.
Voyager was stuck in the same situation as Gilligan's Island.
Could Q have blinked everything back? Absolutely.
Then what?
Voyager got home just in time to end the series.
That's how it was always planned to go. Was it a writing obstacle? Absolutely. Was it Janeway's fault? Not even in the slightest.
Yeah, about that, it's here in this thread too. Subtle and not so subtle. There is hatred of Janeway that is rooted in her being a female. Wether some realize it or not, it's there. It's in EVERY Janeway discussion, unfortunately.
Mostly people hate things that are different. People loathed Picard when TNG debuted. Loathed him. He wasn't Kirk. He was too old. Too bald. Too stiff.
Eventually he saw four lights and people were like, "Woah, give this dude an emmy."
But people don't like things to change. So they hated on Picard. They absolutely hated on Janeway because of that. They hated on DS9 because it wasn't about a ship. And they hated on Enterprise because it wasn't very Trek-like at first and Archer wasn't like any of the previous captains.
Guess why people loathe Pine?
Anyways, like I said, Voyager and Janeway weren't my favorite. I just am a little fascinated by how you're so quick to write off the inherent sexism that's obviously followed Mulgrew around since she first put on her communicator pin. But hey, whatever.
Keep on chugging out ways Voyager could have been done different over 10 years ago, with Q like beings or suspended animation tubes or whatever. That's my favorite bit here. Folks coming up with plot ideas that would have ended the show YEARS before it was going to end.
You really want a good idea on how they could have gotten home quicker?
Professor Janeway could have made a transwarp engine out of coconuts and bamboo and Neelix and his little buddy Paris could have flown the ship back to Hawaii!
Sorry this reply is a bit late. Forum was acting funny yesterday; it actually just vanished for a while and kept giving me a HALT CADET page not found error.
Well considering the fact that I introduced myself to all of Trek (save perhaps TOS, which I started watching somewhat earlier) at close to the same time, I'd say I have a pretty objective viewpoint in terms of things being different. By the way, I actually sort of like Voyager. It's not as good as other series, but it's okay. Janeway is just the low point. I especially think Enterprise is underrated, again, with the captain as the low point.
All I see in your reasoning is this: Janeway is disliked. She is female. Ergo, she must be disliked because she is female, rather than because she's an inconsistently written nutcase with mediocre acting. In this line of reasoning, no criticism of a female is ever legitimate, which whether you realize it or not, is precisely the goal of those who spread this kind of thinking.
You know what they could have done, that would actually have made the series interesting?
Partway through season 3 -- or as a season finale if they really didn't want to take a risk -- they find a way to get home. They get there, and spend maybe half a season debriefing, meeting old friends, everything you'd expect.
But then, a large portion of the crew decides that they should head back into the Delta Quadrant, in order to continue exploring. Bam. You can go right back to where you were, using whatever means they got out with, but with a different tone, and you've resolved the series' major plot hole of "why don't they use such-and-such to get home". Now, the crew is free to explore. Plus, send a fleet with them so they're not so pitifully underequipped. I mean come on. True, it would reek a bit of TNG, but you could take a different approach, since they're still largely on their own. They're just not stranded anymore. You could sort of do a DS9-like thing, with continuing plot arcs and various factions.
The bottom line, though, is this: if your premise can be easily resolved (and isn't), you are a bad writer and should feel bad. Now, I've never watched Gilligan's Island, and from the sound of it, I doubt I ever will. It sounds extraordinarily stupid. A sitcom, with no continuity to speak of and a plot which could be easily resolved, but isn't in order to maintain the status quo. Precisely what I hate in a show.
As for writing off the alleged sexism? I write off most cases where women are portrayed as victims, and men as predators/bigots. Because that is sexism, right there.
He flew a starship into San Francisco! I don't care if he targeted Starfleet Command, he still flew a starship into San Francisco!
Yes, but honestly, why did he do that? If he simply wanted to kill the inferior, he could just as easily have crashed into London for a second round of chaos ( and if he was that kind of psycho, he would not have rescued Kirk and co from the Klingons, nor let Kirk lay hands on him, He'd've killed them all (and movie over ) ) or taken out a major part of San Francisco itself, not specifically target Starfleet Command (a target he confirmed, rather than just saying "f**k it, Anywhere in San Francisco will do..." ) His targets (apart from Carol and the Klingons) were only those who had acted against him...
Yes, but honestly, why did he do that? If he simply wanted to kill the inferior, he could just as easily have crashed into London for a second round of chaos ( and if he was that kind of psycho, he would not have rescued Kirk and co from the Klingons, nor let Kirk lay hands on him, He'd've killed them all (and movie over ) ) or taken out a major part of San Francisco itself, not specifically target Starfleet Command (a target he confirmed, rather than just saying "f**k it, Anywhere in San Francisco will do..." ) His targets (apart from Carol and the Klingons) were only those who had acted against him...
Flying a starship into a populated area just to wipe out starfleet HQ is still way overkill! It's like nuking Washington DC just to get the Pentagon! Especially when the Vengeance could have just bombed it from orbit (as I recall, he never checked if weapons were online or not. He was trying to kill himself and take as many SF as he could with him).
Yes, but honestly, why did he do that? If he simply wanted to kill the inferior, he could just as easily have crashed into London for a second round of chaos ( and if he was that kind of psycho, he would not have rescued Kirk and co from the Klingons, nor let Kirk lay hands on him, He'd've killed them all (and movie over ) ) or taken out a major part of San Francisco itself, not specifically target Starfleet Command (a target he confirmed, rather than just saying "f**k it, Anywhere in San Francisco will do..." ) His targets (apart from Carol and the Klingons) were only those who had acted against him...
Because he is highly intelligent.
Most overlords have the foresight to go with the flow before enacting their plan at a later date. Just because he didn't kill everyone in the time frame of the film, it doesn't men that he wouldn't have if aloud to go free.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Because he is highly intelligent.
Most overlords have the foresight to go with the flow before enacting their plan at a later date. Just because he didn't kill everyone in the time frame of the film, it doesn't men that he wouldn't have if aloud to go free.
Flying a starship into a populated area just to wipe out starfleet HQ is still way overkill! It's like nuking Washington DC just to get the Pentagon! Especially when the Vengeance could have just bombed it from orbit (as I recall, he never checked if weapons were online or not. He was trying to kill himself and take as many SF as he could with him).
Um no, it's nothing like that... Nuking the Pentagon to get the Pentagon, was what Khan was doing by crashing the Vengeance into Starfleet Command.
Because he is highly intelligent.
Most overlords have the foresight to go with the flow before enacting their plan at a later date. Just because he didn't kill everyone in the time frame of the film, it doesn't men that he wouldn't have if aloud to go free.
If Kahn in into darkness was intelligent he would have just transwarp beamed himself into the admiral's office and killed him or taken his story to the proper authorities and have the admiral arrested and disgraced. His plan was idiotic and unnecessarily violent and ultimately only seemed to work because of pure dumb luck. Seriously Kahn somehow knew not only that they would assemble to discuss a strategy to combat the terrorism , he even somehow knew what room and when? He also somehow knew that the admiral would send kirk and not some by the book follow orders type. That Kahn was a shallow image of the TOS Kahn and one the worst villians next to Nero the idiot that plots revenge instead of warning Romulus or at least his future self. Forget revenge how bout rescueing your wife and kid from the supernova. Both JJ villains were pure idiots with a massively violent plan with no strategy to ensure their plan actually would work. Seriously how does destroying the federation prevent a supernova?
If Kahn in into darkness was intelligent he would have just transwarp beamed himself into the admiral's office and killed him or taken his story to the proper authorities and have the admiral arrested and disgraced. His plan was idiotic and unnecessarily violent and ultimately only seemed to work because of pure dumb luck. Seriously Kahn somehow knew not only that they would assemble to discuss a strategy to combat the terrorism , he even somehow knew what room and when? He also somehow knew that the admiral would send kirk and not some by the book follow orders type. That Kahn was a shallow image of the TOS Kahn and one the worst villians next to Nero the idiot that plots revenge instead of warning Romulus or at least his future self. Forget revenge how bout rescueing your wife and kid from the supernova. Both JJ villains were pure idiots with a massively violent plan with no strategy to ensure their plan actually would work. Seriously how does destroying the federation prevent a supernova?
Absolutely, both films had massive plot holes throughout, and run purely on the Plot Necessity of some very poor writers...
Oh but it was her fault... Tuvok told her that he could use the array to return them to Federation space. Janeway decides that the Ocampa suddenly need her protection, and decides to destroy the array stranding Voyager. Her fault. I understand that that was the premise, but that was her fault. To make it worse, she didn't care about the Ocampa enough to actually stay around long enough to do anything about the Kazon, instead, she just upset the balance of power in the system, then flew off on her merry way...
7
She owns up to this mistake in the show. She is a bad captain, it is canon. :P
A TIME TO SEARCH: ENTER MY FOUNDRY MISSION at the RISA SYSTEM Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
Ah - you see, that's not what I got from Khan at all.
Okay - "he gave his blood to the girl's parents in advance of the bombing" - parentS. A pity that the girl, subsequent to the bombing, only had ONE parent, since the explosive wasn't in any way time-delayed and KILLED HER DAD! That's not honourable.
All that he cared about was his own agenda and getting what he wanted. Though his 'motivation' may have had honourable origins, his actions were far from it.
I disagree... Her dad gave his life to save hers, so that was honourable, if somewhat stupid... He had the blood, his daughter was saved, he could've just reported Khan, still had his daughter's health, and not used himself to redecorate the archive... Besides, I'm sure her mum will find a new man soon I know, Khan was a bad guy, but to be honest, he was not written as Full On Evil, and actually written as a rather sympathetic character. As before, he gave his blood before the bombings, so he could quite easily have been betrayed onnthat point... The writing of the film was so weak, that it made the morals of the characters ambiguous rather than clear cut. I agree, Khan did only care about his agenda, because as he said to Kirk, he considered them his family, and in other characters, such traits would be admired, not used as agenda-chasing
Comments
At that point, I think Khan was entitled to be pissed at them (Starfleet in general) for how they'd used him (and again, Plot Necessity prevents him from saying that)
Nope, not me..
Possibly... On a personal level, I wouldn't've ordered Scotty to do that, but I would have given Marcus a beating and stunned him (wouldn't've killed him thought, I'd've enjoyed watching a court martial tearing him a new one too much... And I bet He'd've given the whole "You can't handle the truth!" rant then as well
Awesome, more Ms Marcus for me :cool: I mean sure, she's nowhere near as badass as Peta Wilson's Nikita, but she seemed like a nice enough girl, certainly not one to pass up
As long as I get the Borg Queen.
Mmmmmm, Alice Kriege. I'd DEFINITELY let her assimilate me, LOL.
Also I wonder if Paxton and Marcus are related?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Am I the only one who read that as 'Ms Marvel' the first time round? :P
Anyway, I'm personally not going to comment on my preferences in this matter, except with; Ezri Dax.
Thank you, good bye.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
No, Paxton actually had a character.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Yeah, their little 'secret club' uniforms were really stupid (looked like they were tailored for a Cardassian...) but then everything about Marcus and the Vengeance irritated me, so I can't really single those out for the hate
Awesome, definitely more Ms Marcus for me ^_^ and to think I didn't even have to call dibs :P
YES!! I get it now they do look like Cardassian civilians form DS9
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Sweet, I get the Borg Queen ALL TO MYSELF!!!!!
Section 31 is being controlled by the Obsidian Order :eek:.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Or is it the other way round? *Strokes beard intellectually.*
But, seriously, the badly designed Mil-SF uniforms were another gripe I had with ID.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Wich is why Into Darkness was a FAR superior film to the 2009..."thing".... I dare to call that one a movie.
Still not GOOD.... Still not really a Star Trek movie..... but enjoyable as an action movie.
But it certainly can't undo its predecessor so... so no saving for the JarJar verse.
Well I certainly can't consider a man "Honorable" that bombs half a city including thousands of civilians. Thats terrorism. There is nothing honorable about that.
Actually I still found "new Khan" started up as a kind of promising character. I even liked how they actually managed to get "new Khan" much closer to the series appearance of "old Khan" then to his Movie appearance, since, after all, Old-movie-Khan was "kind" of a completely different character (after simply having gone nuts).
Up until they said "what the hell we can't have an actual character in ou movie, this is a JarJar movie after all", and just turned him into a mustage twirling villain. Supported by old Spocks bad cameo with his pseudo-fun-and-intimidating speech on how "just evil" Khan is by nature bla bla.. killing every character development.
Thing is, series-Khan was actually a kind of honorable man, with principles. He ended up as a bad guy, yes, but as a character he was more in the grey area.
Since THIS is the Khan the ID Khan mirrors, that WOULD be a character that can be reasoned with. And after all, even in the movie his motivation was originally relatable. It was only the old-khan-movie version that could not be reasoned with AFTER he went essentially mad (for relatable reasons, but this had not happened to the ID khan).
Ultimaltly, the movie would have been much better if it had ended differently. New Kirk and New Khan should have stayed teamed up until the Admiral was finally beaten, then Khan should have set "his original Plan" in motion to steal flee with that Avenger ship and his crew into some uncharted territories without actually starting a killing spree, opening a good setup for a sequel.
Damn, beaten to the punch :P
Don't exaggerate... He didn't 'bomb half a city' with thousands of civilians, he blew up a single specific military target, and there may have been some collateral damage (I say 'may', because that was never reliably established...
Totally agree. Even when Khan took over the Vengeance, he didn't just target San Francisco, he specifically targeted Starfleet Command... Plot Necessity made him a villain, but the motivations of the character go way beyond that, and could have been interestingly explored in other ways, rather than the tedious Pew Pew script JJ was lumbered with (damn, I actually just cut JJ a break :eek:)
He flew a starship into San Francisco! I don't care if he targeted Starfleet Command, he still flew a starship into San Francisco!
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Hey, I just love dangerous women. Jadzia Dax can gut you like a fish, as can K'ehlyr, Yar will beat you up with martial arts, and as for the Borg Queen...mmmm, sexy nanites.
Compare him to Sloan in DS9, he may have infected an entire race for the good of the Federation, but nobody called him a hero, he was a necessary and sympathetic monster.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Sorry this reply is a bit late. Forum was acting funny yesterday; it actually just vanished for a while and kept giving me a HALT CADET page not found error.
Well considering the fact that I introduced myself to all of Trek (save perhaps TOS, which I started watching somewhat earlier) at close to the same time, I'd say I have a pretty objective viewpoint in terms of things being different. By the way, I actually sort of like Voyager. It's not as good as other series, but it's okay. Janeway is just the low point. I especially think Enterprise is underrated, again, with the captain as the low point.
All I see in your reasoning is this: Janeway is disliked. She is female. Ergo, she must be disliked because she is female, rather than because she's an inconsistently written nutcase with mediocre acting. In this line of reasoning, no criticism of a female is ever legitimate, which whether you realize it or not, is precisely the goal of those who spread this kind of thinking.
You know what they could have done, that would actually have made the series interesting?
Partway through season 3 -- or as a season finale if they really didn't want to take a risk -- they find a way to get home. They get there, and spend maybe half a season debriefing, meeting old friends, everything you'd expect.
But then, a large portion of the crew decides that they should head back into the Delta Quadrant, in order to continue exploring. Bam. You can go right back to where you were, using whatever means they got out with, but with a different tone, and you've resolved the series' major plot hole of "why don't they use such-and-such to get home". Now, the crew is free to explore. Plus, send a fleet with them so they're not so pitifully underequipped. I mean come on. True, it would reek a bit of TNG, but you could take a different approach, since they're still largely on their own. They're just not stranded anymore. You could sort of do a DS9-like thing, with continuing plot arcs and various factions.
The bottom line, though, is this: if your premise can be easily resolved (and isn't), you are a bad writer and should feel bad. Now, I've never watched Gilligan's Island, and from the sound of it, I doubt I ever will. It sounds extraordinarily stupid. A sitcom, with no continuity to speak of and a plot which could be easily resolved, but isn't in order to maintain the status quo. Precisely what I hate in a show.
As for writing off the alleged sexism? I write off most cases where women are portrayed as victims, and men as predators/bigots. Because that is sexism, right there.
Yes, but honestly, why did he do that? If he simply wanted to kill the inferior, he could just as easily have crashed into London for a second round of chaos ( and if he was that kind of psycho, he would not have rescued Kirk and co from the Klingons, nor let Kirk lay hands on him, He'd've killed them all (and movie over
Flying a starship into a populated area just to wipe out starfleet HQ is still way overkill! It's like nuking Washington DC just to get the Pentagon! Especially when the Vengeance could have just bombed it from orbit (as I recall, he never checked if weapons were online or not. He was trying to kill himself and take as many SF as he could with him).
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Because he is highly intelligent.
Most overlords have the foresight to go with the flow before enacting their plan at a later date. Just because he didn't kill everyone in the time frame of the film, it doesn't men that he wouldn't have if aloud to go free.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Point, this.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Um no, it's nothing like that... Nuking the Pentagon to get the Pentagon, was what Khan was doing by crashing the Vengeance into Starfleet Command.
That's certainly a possibility... :cool:
She owns up to this mistake in the show. She is a bad captain, it is canon. :P
Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
I disagree... Her dad gave his life to save hers, so that was honourable, if somewhat stupid... He had the blood, his daughter was saved, he could've just reported Khan, still had his daughter's health, and not used himself to redecorate the archive... Besides, I'm sure her mum will find a new man soon