Exactly. The prosecution accuses Captain Janeway of gross incompetence and negligent stupidity, as well as allowing her emotional anthropomorphic bias to make her decisions.
The prosecution would also like to add the charge of Conduct Unbecoming in an Officer (gross personal hypocrisy) to the charges.
The defence would ask that Captain Jean Luc Picard be tried of the same charge if this is to be accepted.
The best defense of the Tuvix situation would be to say that Tuvix, in assuming Tuvok's role as a commissioned officer, could be ordered as a member of Starfleet to undergo the procedure for the good of the crew.
But citing the ruling in the case of Data vs. Maddox (Measure of a Man), a crew member has the right to resign their commission if asked to undergo a medical procedure that could endanger their life.
The defence would like to note that that right was not exercised.
That's a closed-minded attitude. You're saying she should let the Iconians blow up the universe before allying with the Borg to stop them, hypothetically?
If plot necessity means that there's no other option? Then play both sides, set the Borg on the Iconians with a false-flag op, use the time while the Iconians curb-stomp the Borg to figure out the Iconians' weak spots, then hit those points.
And if that fails, beg Q for help. Make giant idols of Q. Sacrifice blood to Q. Do whatever Q wants, just get his help.
If you're lucky, both the Iconians and the Borg will annihilate each other. And if one side wins, it will be significantly weakened.
It must be noted that Admiral Kirk was demoted for his actions...
I always had the impression they did that more as a favor to kirk then anything, since he clearly didn't feel comfortable at all with his admiral post which is (take notes Cryptic) a Deskjob.
Point 1: Moral grey area, so it is difficult to say with certainty.
Well you are right. If I kill someone for a package of chewing gum that is a grey area, too. I mean a human being died, thats bad, but i really really wanted that chewing gum... so grey area.
Sarcasm off: There is nothing grey on that Tuvix situation. Its murder.
If plot necessity means that there's no other option? Then play both sides, set the Borg on the Iconians with a false-flag op, use the time while the Iconians curb-stomp the Borg to figure out the Iconians' weak spots, then hit those points.
And if that fails, beg Q for help. Make giant idols of Q. Sacrifice blood to Q. Do whatever Q wants, just get his help.
If you're lucky, both the Iconians and the Borg will annihilate each other. And if one side wins, it will be significantly weakened.
This is the Iconians we're talking about. The race with the ability to pop up literally anywhere. The race behind the destruction of Hobus, capable of unleashing supernovae which travel through subspace and have the capacity to destroy entire galactic quadrants. If the Borg were to lose, I don't think the Iconians would be 'significantly weakened' at all.
The defence would like to note that that right was not exercised.
The Narrative, it is funny that way.
People do all sorts of crazy things for the Narrative. Like running across a cave floor infested with Borgovian Land Worms, so that the Narrative can have a plot where the redshirt's father gets the Captain pulled into court on trumped-up charges.
This is the Iconians we're talking about. The race with the ability to pop up literally anywhere. The race behind the destruction of Hobus, capable of unleashing supernovae which travel through subspace and have the capacity to destroy entire galactic quadrants. If the Borg were to lose, I don't think the Iconians would be 'significantly weakened' at all.
But the Iconians are worried enough about the Undine to try to distract them. That implies that the Undine, despite their relatively low population, are a threat of some level to the Iconian Empire.
And the Borg are just one step down from Undine, and they have a massive population.
Set them on the Iconians and destroy key Iconian sites while the Borg are being curb-stomped.
Then have your all-out war on the Iconians.
Also, if the Iconians are so tough that that won't work...then allying with the Borg will be ineffective.
Please cite the case in question, and indicate which charge you would like to prosecute.
My point is that Voyager is VERY poorly-written. Scorpion, Threshold, Caretaker, Endgame, and Tuvix are all especially bad.
Charge of hypocrisy, based on the case that Captain Picard forcibly removed colonists from a planet in the neutral zone. He later proceeded to prevent similar action with the Bak'u in 2375.
(Should be noted that I am a fan of Insurrection - one of the few)
I always had the impression they did that more as a favor to kirk then anything, since he clearly didn't feel comfortable at all with his admiral post which is (take notes Cryptic) a Deskjob.
Well you are right. If I kill someone for a package of chewing gum that is a grey area, too. I mean a human being died, thats bad, but i really really wanted that chewing gum... so grey area.
Sarcasm off: There is nothing grey on that Tuvix situation. Its murder.
I wasn't disputing that, but it was to save two others. It's a grey area of the 'do the ends justify the means?' variety.
Charge of hypocrisy, based on the case that Captain Picard forcibly removed colonists from a planet in the neutral zone. He later proceeded to prevent similar action with the Bak'u in 2375.
(Should be noted that I am a fan of Insurrection - one of the few)
That was the last Wesley episode, right? Where Picard has to convince the Native Americans to leave, but they decide to stay and become Cardassian citizens?
And I actually really liked Insurrection, too. Ru'afo was fun. And Worf was so badass.
But the Iconians are worried enough about the Undine to try to distract them. That implies that the Undine, despite their relatively low population, are a threat of some level to the Iconian Empire.
And the Borg are just one step down from Undine, and they have a massive population.
Set them on the Iconians and destroy key Iconian sites while the Borg are being curb-stomped.
Then have your all-out war on the Iconians.
Also, if the Iconians are so tough that that won't work...then allying with the Borg will be ineffective.
The fact that the Iconians interfered with the Undine is more a point of causing chaos without committing themselves to conflict than being threatened.
Okay, follow my hypothesis here; suppose it took every power in the galaxy to defeat the Iconians, including the Borg. If allying with the Borg is inexcusable, as you say, then does that mean we shouldn't do so?
That was the last Wesley episode, right? Where Picard has to convince the Native Americans to leave, but they decide to stay and become Cardassian citizens?
And I actually really liked Insurrection, too. Ru'afo was fun. And Worf was so badass.
The fact that the Iconians interfered with the Undine is more a point of causing chaos without committing themselves to conflict than being threatened.
Okay, follow my hypothesis here; suppose it took every power in the galaxy to defeat the Iconians, including the Borg. If allying with the Borg is inexcusable, as you say, then does that mean we shouldn't do so?
See my previous post. You probably should do it, but it is still morally reprehensible, and you should definitely beg Q first.
And that situation has some very specific plot circumstances.
Picard ultimately did not remove the native Americans from the Cardassian planet. He struggled very hard with the issue before finally reaching an agreement with the Cardassians that allowed them to stay.
It should also be noted that this example refers to a planet involved in an intergalactic dispute of territory control. The Ba'ku were on a planet entirely within Federation borders. This fact needs to be considered.
Last, I would like to note that Picard in Insurrection, was a slightly older, more experienced, more moral officer than he was in TNG.
And yes, Insurrection is a fine piece of Star Trek lore. I like the movie quite a bit. Way better than Nemesis, and probably even better than Generations.
Yeah, Picard ends up letting them go join the Cardassian Union, and he is very clearly morally troubled about the forced relocation. I wouldn't call that hypocrisy, because he doesn't go through with the plan and is CLEARLY disturbed by the relocation attempt from the start.
I like to think that that episode is what gave him the staunch anti-relocation views he expressed in Insurrection.
Picard ultimately did not remove the native Americans from the Cardassian planet. He struggled very hard with the issue before finally reaching an agreement with the Cardassians that allowed them to stay.
It should also be noted that this example refers to a planet involved in an intergalactic dispute of territory control. The Ba'ku were on a planet entirely within Federation borders. This fact needs to be considered.
Last, I would like to note that Picard in Insurrection, was a slightly older, more experienced, more moral officer than he was in TNG.
And yes, Insurrection is a fine piece of Star Trek lore. I like the movie quite a bit. Way better than Nemesis, and probably even better than Generations.
Agreed, entirely.
Ugh, Kirk's death scene...talk about sh*tty writing...
See my previous post. You probably should do it, but it is still morally reprehensible, and you should definitely beg Q first.
And that situation has some very specific plot circumstances.
Between allowing Galactic extinction and losing moral high-ground, I think I'll go with losing moral high-ground (assuming there isn't another option).
Picard ultimately did not remove the native Americans from the Cardassian planet. He struggled very hard with the issue before finally reaching an agreement with the Cardassians that allowed them to stay.
It should also be noted that this example refers to a planet involved in an intergalactic dispute of territory control. The Ba'ku were on a planet entirely within Federation borders. This fact needs to be considered.
Last, I would like to note that Picard in Insurrection, was a slightly older, more experienced, more moral officer than he was in TNG.
And yes, Insurrection is a fine piece of Star Trek lore. I like the movie quite a bit. Way better than Nemesis, and probably even better than Generations.
Permission to use this post with everyone who makes the point that Picard was hypocrite so I can educate them?
Between allowing Galactic extinction and losing moral high-ground, I think I'll go with losing moral high-ground (assuming there isn't another option).
OK.
I think that I would, too. But I would feel dirty about it for the rest of my life.
Ugh, Kirk's death scene...talk about sh*tty writing...
Very unceremonious. But he did die for a noble cause.
My biggest problem with Generations: if Picard could leave the Nexus whenever and wherever he wanted to, then why didn't he just leave like two weeks prior, send a message back to Earth reminding Robert to turn off the coffee pot, fly out to Amargosa and prevent the station crew from being killed in the Romulan attack, and arrest Dr. Soren on the site for plotting to blow up a star.
Very unceremonious. But he did die for a noble cause.
My biggest problem with Generations: if Picard could leave the Nexus whenever and wherever he wanted to, then why didn't he just leave like two weeks prior, send a message back to Earth reminding Robert to turn off the coffee pot, fly out to Amargosa and prevent the station crew from being killed in the Romulan attack, and arrest Dr. Soren on the site for plotting to blow up a star.
Yeah, that's a big plot hole, too.
But it's more dramatic the way it was, I suppose. Narrative necessity or some other such idiocy.
Very unceremonious. But he did die for a noble cause.
My biggest problem with Generations: if Picard could leave the Nexus whenever and wherever he wanted to, then why didn't he just leave like two weeks prior, send a message back to Earth reminding Robert to turn off the coffee pot, fly out to Amargosa and prevent the station crew from being killed in the Romulan attack, and arrest Dr. Soren on the site for plotting to blow up a star.
As it is, he was violating the temporal prime directive. I think DTI would have thrown a fit if he did what you suggested.
I suppose you would have rather he died fighting an army of Klingon Warriors?
I, personally, was satisfied with the scene as it was. He died saving billions of people on Veridian IV. He died a hero.
I'd like to request the judge posthumously promote Captain James T Kirk to Admiral in honour of his service.
Yes, TEHO, yeah he was a hero, and seconded.
My central gripe is that Kirk was like 5 years younger when he fist-fought a Klingon captain on the imploding Genesis planet, and won. He goes with Picard to fight Soran, and falls off a cliff that Wrath of Khan Kirk could've jumped off without so much as a twisted ankle, and dies.
Basically, the writers killed off Kirk to show that they could.
It would've been so much cooler if he died fighting an army of Klingon berserkers, though.
Comments
Point, there.
The defence would ask that Captain Jean Luc Picard be tried of the same charge if this is to be accepted.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
The defence would like to note that that right was not exercised.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
If plot necessity means that there's no other option? Then play both sides, set the Borg on the Iconians with a false-flag op, use the time while the Iconians curb-stomp the Borg to figure out the Iconians' weak spots, then hit those points.
And if that fails, beg Q for help. Make giant idols of Q. Sacrifice blood to Q. Do whatever Q wants, just get his help.
If you're lucky, both the Iconians and the Borg will annihilate each other. And if one side wins, it will be significantly weakened.
Please cite the case in question, and indicate which charge you would like to prosecute.
My point is that Voyager is VERY poorly-written. Scorpion, Threshold, Caretaker, Endgame, and Tuvix are all especially bad.
Well you are right. If I kill someone for a package of chewing gum that is a grey area, too. I mean a human being died, thats bad, but i really really wanted that chewing gum... so grey area.
Sarcasm off: There is nothing grey on that Tuvix situation. Its murder.
This is the Iconians we're talking about. The race with the ability to pop up literally anywhere. The race behind the destruction of Hobus, capable of unleashing supernovae which travel through subspace and have the capacity to destroy entire galactic quadrants. If the Borg were to lose, I don't think the Iconians would be 'significantly weakened' at all.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
The Narrative, it is funny that way.
People do all sorts of crazy things for the Narrative. Like running across a cave floor infested with Borgovian Land Worms, so that the Narrative can have a plot where the redshirt's father gets the Captain pulled into court on trumped-up charges.
But the Iconians are worried enough about the Undine to try to distract them. That implies that the Undine, despite their relatively low population, are a threat of some level to the Iconian Empire.
And the Borg are just one step down from Undine, and they have a massive population.
Set them on the Iconians and destroy key Iconian sites while the Borg are being curb-stomped.
Then have your all-out war on the Iconians.
Also, if the Iconians are so tough that that won't work...then allying with the Borg will be ineffective.
Charge of hypocrisy, based on the case that Captain Picard forcibly removed colonists from a planet in the neutral zone. He later proceeded to prevent similar action with the Bak'u in 2375.
(Should be noted that I am a fan of Insurrection - one of the few)
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
I wasn't disputing that, but it was to save two others. It's a grey area of the 'do the ends justify the means?' variety.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
That was the last Wesley episode, right? Where Picard has to convince the Native Americans to leave, but they decide to stay and become Cardassian citizens?
And I actually really liked Insurrection, too. Ru'afo was fun. And Worf was so badass.
The ends do not justify the means. If you do something horrible that saves the galaxy, you still did a horrible thing.
Sure, the galaxy lives on, but your actions are not justified. They may be pardoned by an appropriate authority, but they are not justified.
Just my personal philosophy.
The fact that the Iconians interfered with the Undine is more a point of causing chaos without committing themselves to conflict than being threatened.
Okay, follow my hypothesis here; suppose it took every power in the galaxy to defeat the Iconians, including the Borg. If allying with the Borg is inexcusable, as you say, then does that mean we shouldn't do so?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
That's the one.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
See my previous post. You probably should do it, but it is still morally reprehensible, and you should definitely beg Q first.
And that situation has some very specific plot circumstances.
It should also be noted that this example refers to a planet involved in an intergalactic dispute of territory control. The Ba'ku were on a planet entirely within Federation borders. This fact needs to be considered.
Last, I would like to note that Picard in Insurrection, was a slightly older, more experienced, more moral officer than he was in TNG.
And yes, Insurrection is a fine piece of Star Trek lore. I like the movie quite a bit. Way better than Nemesis, and probably even better than Generations.
Yeah, Picard ends up letting them go join the Cardassian Union, and he is very clearly morally troubled about the forced relocation. I wouldn't call that hypocrisy, because he doesn't go through with the plan and is CLEARLY disturbed by the relocation attempt from the start.
I like to think that that episode is what gave him the staunch anti-relocation views he expressed in Insurrection.
Agreed, entirely.
Ugh, Kirk's death scene...talk about sh*tty writing...
Between allowing Galactic extinction and losing moral high-ground, I think I'll go with losing moral high-ground (assuming there isn't another option).
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Permission to use this post with everyone who makes the point that Picard was hypocrite so I can educate them?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
OK.
I think that I would, too. But I would feel dirty about it for the rest of my life.
Very unceremonious. But he did die for a noble cause.
My biggest problem with Generations: if Picard could leave the Nexus whenever and wherever he wanted to, then why didn't he just leave like two weeks prior, send a message back to Earth reminding Robert to turn off the coffee pot, fly out to Amargosa and prevent the station crew from being killed in the Romulan attack, and arrest Dr. Soren on the site for plotting to blow up a star.
I suppose you would have rather he died fighting an army of Klingon Warriors?
I, personally, was satisfied with the scene as it was. He died saving billions of people on Veridian IV. He died a hero.
I'd like to request the judge posthumously promote Captain James T Kirk to Admiral in honour of his service.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Feel free.
Yeah, that's a big plot hole, too.
But it's more dramatic the way it was, I suppose. Narrative necessity or some other such idiocy.
Damn the Narrative!
As it is, he was violating the temporal prime directive. I think DTI would have thrown a fit if he did what you suggested.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Yes, TEHO, yeah he was a hero, and seconded.
My central gripe is that Kirk was like 5 years younger when he fist-fought a Klingon captain on the imploding Genesis planet, and won. He goes with Picard to fight Soran, and falls off a cliff that Wrath of Khan Kirk could've jumped off without so much as a twisted ankle, and dies.
Basically, the writers killed off Kirk to show that they could.
It would've been so much cooler if he died fighting an army of Klingon berserkers, though.
But he was in the Nexus, with timeline-altering power.
TRIBBLE DTI and their regulations. Picard could do it, and there's no reason not to.
The whole thing was a Narrative jury-rig to get Picard and Kirk to fight Soran together, and then to get Kirk killed.