Haven't read the thread, maybe it's been brought up, but the sphere moving was more believable to me than having a zero-G sequence 100KM above the surface of a star...They'd need reverse anti-gravity to even allow you to walk in that station. No amount of thrust coming from that tiny suit is going to be able to counter the gravity well sitting beneath you.
The station itself is pretty ludicrous too, but it's a station, I can justify that somehow. Made of magic material that can withstand the heat and gravitational effects of sitting at a fixed point over a star. The suits, not so much.
Everyone has that little thing that ruins their suspension of disbelief.
Haven't read the thread, maybe it's been brought up, but the sphere moving was more believable to me than having a zero-G sequence 100KM above the surface of a star...They'd need reverse anti-gravity to even allow you to walk in that station. No amount of thrust coming from that tiny suit is going to be able to counter the gravity well sitting beneath you.
The station itself is pretty ludicrous too, but it's a station, I can justify that somehow. Made of magic material that can withstand the heat and gravitational effects of sitting at a fixed point over a star. The suits, not so much.
Everyone has that little thing that ruins their suspension of disbelief.
And there are no liquid vapor clouds in the sun's corona either, it's too hot.
Actually, white dwarf stars, toward the end of their existence, reach the point of fusing carbon and emitting water vapor. Depending on the star, there can be clouds in the corona.
"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet, Act I, Scene V
Actually, white dwarf stars, toward the end of their existence, reach the point of fusing carbon and emitting water vapor. Depending on the star, there can be clouds in the corona.
"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet, Act I, Scene V
awesome quote my friend, wasted here, but nonetheless, an awesome quote
Couldn't find a "Science of Gandalf". Probably on account of Gandalf having no factual basis in reality whatsoever.
While Star Trek is slightly based in reality, it has become kind of a mixed bag over the years. VOYAGER was the king of "TECH THE TECH TECH WITH THE TECH FIELD FROM THE MAIN TECH" solutions to problems.
The deflector dish moved from being a legitimate piece of technology to the swiss army knife/magic wand of the universe. Everything could be fixed with tachyon particles. And on, and on.
The magic he is referring to is techno-babble, which the is the art of replacing the word "TECH" in the script with something from a pre-defined list. Presumably by throwing darts at a chart of them.
Stop taking Star Trek so seriously. It's a frigging entertainment venue. Sure, it would be more entertaining if it held closer to real life science but they jumped off of that ship a long time ago.
As for the sphere itself, we have Omega magic. Because why the hell not.
Look guys, at this point no one is going to change capnkirk4's mind; which makes all this debate pointless. He can envision Star Trek however he wishes, and if he is frustrated or disappointed by some benign aspects of the Dyson Spheres in this game so be it. Nothing is going to change that. Wisdom is knowing you are just wasting your effort and it is time to walk away...
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
your not the same guy who was saying about the whole thing being too close to the sun are you?
anyhow this is indeed sci-fi the fi for fiction says it all, in fiction anything is possible.
sure its nice when they seem to hit the nail it on the head as far as science fact and upcoming technology but there is an awful lot in star trek that is not and never will be true its all pure fiction and fantasy.
who knows what the future holds if you could magically jump a few hundred years into the future you may see many many things that are reminiscent of star trek that are in common everyday use you may even find that we are indeed it some kind of planetary alliance with extra-terrestrial beings of many kinds.
but there are many more things that will never be real, only in the writers and our imagination.
and like I said to the other guy it still makes for a great story.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
what the fork??? i just played it, because i didn't have time last week, and i can't believe what i heard. a dyson sphere can't be moved, there's just no way. i don't care how much energy you've got, it just ain't happening. okay maybe Q, but that's the only way.
star trek is sci-fi, not fantasy. you can't just make something like that happen just because it would be cool. this is why sci-fi tv shows have science advisors. cryptic, you are in desperate need of a good trek advisor. please... you need someone to stop you from doing ridiculous things like this.
am i not crazy being irked about this, or is everyone else swallowing it?
I find your lack of faith ... disturbing. You should not doubt the power of the Force...
Wait wrong IP again, get them mixed up all the time. :P
But yeah, the Jenolan sphere moved, but as to how it moved was left, I think, unexplained fore future FE's. It did actually end with the annoying "To be Continued" line...
That's just it, the OP is asking for the technobabble explanation. The OP is NOT crazy as some have suggested. I think some of those other posters are a bit lazy actually. One of the hallmarks of Trek is the technobabble. And how rooted in science and math some of it actually gets is what makes Trek that much more fun and engaging.
It's not often in Trek things just get "magic"-ed away. The OP raises the issue of raw power. And since omega particles and a Dyson Sphere are involved, it's a legit question. I think there is math that can tackle it though. So the OP is not insane for asking about that.
This is the same Star Trek that explains what it is Broussard Collectors scoop up, how communication travels via subspace, what the difference between Warp 9.5 and 9.8 is. The OP's question is fine.
if you watched the cutscenes that come on the completion of each tier of dyson rep you got all the technobabble there or at least more then enough for my liking thanks.
example of technobabble follows.
regarding the transporter, when asked "How does the Heisenberg compensator work?" by Time magazine, Star Trek technical adviser Michael Okuda responded: "It works very well, thank you."
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
There is, however, one blatant error of basic science in "A Step Between Stars". As you approach the sun-station, it's described in the text onscreen as a "brown dwarf". However, brown dwarf stars are called that because they're basically stars that didn't make the cut - they radiate only in the infrared. Were the Solonae sphere lit by a brown dwarf, we'd only be able to see anything with computer assistance (except for those alien species whose visual range includes infrared). Also, while its magnetic fields might be dangerous, its direct radiations would be difficult to even detect, much less be threatened by.
I propose instead that the star involved must be either an M-type red dwarf, or possibly a white dwarf (which might also explain what happened to the original inhabitants - red dwarfs tend to flare more than most main-sequence stars, while white dwarfs will tend to have a nova event every few million years or so as they run out of one element and start fusing another).
The flaring tendencies of red dwarfs could also explain both the size and the uninhabitability of the Jenolan sphere.
Oh, I'm sorry, are we wasting your time? Are you feeling that the precious few minutes you're taking out of your no doubt, hectic schedule, to voluntarily read, and comment in these forums, could be better spent elsewhere? Please, by all means, off you go, don't let us hold you up. As Lord Humungous would say "Just walk away".
Up until the last few pages, this was a fine topic / debate about Dyson Spheres in Star Trek and what they could and could not do.
As loads of us have rebutted every angle you could come up with to discredit the Dyson Sphere being built, maintained and being moved, you are just trolling and wasting everyones time at this point.
And sarcastic comments to someone who was not addressing you just reinforces what I have just written about you just trolling now.
regarding the transporter, when asked "How does the Heisenberg compensator work?" by Time magazine, Star Trek technical adviser Michael Okuda responded: "It works very well, thank you."
Okay, then please question it. If I'm wrong, I'll want to know.
Ok. let's start with James Joyce's Ulysses.
"The point of fiction is to give the audience something that they can't experience IRL."
What in that novel lives up to your statement?
After that we can try a Faulkner novel. Or maybe Joseph Conrad's Lord Jim or heck let's just go straight to Moby ****, since that's actually been brought up in a Star Trek movie before.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
I have to agree with the op. But I also agree with everyone else. Here's why; since it is a solid object, the dyson sphere itself could indeed be moved, given enough energy. Omega particles produce more than enough energy for this. But the problem would be moving the sun inside the sphere. Its not really about moving the sphere itself, but I can't imagine that the sun would remain stable, or not interact with the omega residue in some way.
While Star Trek is slightly based in reality, it has become kind of a mixed bag over the years. VOYAGER was the king of "TECH THE TECH TECH WITH THE TECH FIELD FROM THE MAIN TECH" solutions to problems.
The deflector dish moved from being a legitimate piece of technology to the swiss army knife/magic wand of the universe. Everything could be fixed with tachyon particles. And on, and on.
The magic he is referring to is techno-babble, which the is the art of replacing the word "TECH" in the script with something from a pre-defined list. Presumably by throwing darts at a chart of them.
Stop taking Star Trek so seriously. It's a frigging entertainment venue. Sure, it would be more entertaining if it held closer to real life science but they jumped off of that ship a long time ago.
As for the sphere itself, we have Omega magic. Because why the hell not.
Probably right. The TOS crew was noted to argue with directors that certain controls already had specified functions and thus tried to maintain cohesion. TNG had Gates McFadden trying to keep the medicine accurate as she could on the show to keep it believable.
So I can fully believe that if there was no one reining in the writers some truly horrific stuff got through.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I read one of the star trek books and it explained in there that scotty went back with a fed ship and scanned the area looking and for kirk and he never believed that he was dead. and he backed this up by saying that there was NO remains at ALL. no debris from the ships or anything. so your idea is kinda accurate when compared to the books.
But then it boils down to if you believe the books are cannon or not. (i kinda count them as cannon) lol
Well, it's been brought up in past discussions. I think it got cut(not filmed) from the televised version for time. But it makes sense to investigate what happened. Not JUST for Kirk's sake, but for the hundreds of El-Aurians who were involved as well.... that and it just makes sense to want to understand how a disaster like that happens.
So... while Kirk was officially listed as KIA, the more in depth entry probably reads as "missing, presumed dead". This is actually supported in the movie when they briefly explain why the Enterprise can't get a good transporter lock through the interference. I think the phrase was "It's like they're phasing out of the space time continuum."
Which really rings in on a hollow bell, when set against all the precepts that I've posited why Dyson Spheres can't, and shouldn't exist.
You mean like how people get ripped apart by atom and reforms at another location without any serious damage to the person? Or how a piece of computer software can translate some completely unknown language into English by only hearing a couple of sentences? Or how a piece of alien technology can transform any race to look completely identical to humans except for some cybernetic implants even though they have never encountered humans before?
Star Trek and most Science Fiction is full of things that "can't and shouldn't exist". Which is why Science Fiction is fun. The Dyson Sphere is an interesting concept that tells an interesting story as proved by the Ringworld series. Sometimes Science Fiction authors get it right and what "can't and shouldn't exist" is actually possible. So saying that we shouldn't have Dyson Spheres in a Soft Science Fiction game because Dyson Spheres can't and shouldn't exist is disrespecting the whole Soft Science Fiction genre. Dyson Spheres should be in a Soft Science Fiction game because Soft Science Fiction requires things that "can't and shouldn't exist."
Personally, I have to wonder why you are even into Star Trek considering all the content that "can't and shouldn't exist" it has. Star Trek is not Hard Science Fiction and contains a ton of ridiculous content. After all, people don't watch it because it is a realistic look at the Future 300 years from now, but because it is entertaining, has interesting ideas, and is not like reality. Dyson Spheres is Star Trek canon due to the Relics episode and the more Star Trek references we have in STO the better.
What you were objecting to has nothing to do with science as we know it. "Omega particles" aren't really a thing, so saying what they can and can't do makes no sense. Perhaps they can fuel an instantaneous jump of an entire Dyson shell and its associated star from one point in the Galaxy to another. You can't really nitpick the science of something where there's no science.
The same thing applies to gravity generators. They have them in Star Trek - we've seen them in every single episode. They work even when the ship has no power. We have no idea how long they can operate without maintenance. However, they have no even theoretical basis in modern science.
However, stellar characteristics are pretty well understood in today's world. There are stars that emit water. There are brown dwarfs. There are no brown dwarfs that give off visible light - that's why we call them "brown dwarfs".
The cases are hardly comparable, and your condescension is unnecessary and unwarranted.
Comments
The station itself is pretty ludicrous too, but it's a station, I can justify that somehow. Made of magic material that can withstand the heat and gravitational effects of sitting at a fixed point over a star. The suits, not so much.
Everyone has that little thing that ruins their suspension of disbelief.
Not waking up on a starship is mine :P
"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet, Act I, Scene V
awesome quote my friend, wasted here, but nonetheless, an awesome quote
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
While Star Trek is slightly based in reality, it has become kind of a mixed bag over the years. VOYAGER was the king of "TECH THE TECH TECH WITH THE TECH FIELD FROM THE MAIN TECH" solutions to problems.
The deflector dish moved from being a legitimate piece of technology to the swiss army knife/magic wand of the universe. Everything could be fixed with tachyon particles. And on, and on.
The magic he is referring to is techno-babble, which the is the art of replacing the word "TECH" in the script with something from a pre-defined list. Presumably by throwing darts at a chart of them.
Stop taking Star Trek so seriously. It's a frigging entertainment venue. Sure, it would be more entertaining if it held closer to real life science but they jumped off of that ship a long time ago.
As for the sphere itself, we have Omega magic. Because why the hell not.
anyhow this is indeed sci-fi the fi for fiction says it all, in fiction anything is possible.
sure its nice when they seem to hit the nail it on the head as far as science fact and upcoming technology but there is an awful lot in star trek that is not and never will be true its all pure fiction and fantasy.
who knows what the future holds if you could magically jump a few hundred years into the future you may see many many things that are reminiscent of star trek that are in common everyday use you may even find that we are indeed it some kind of planetary alliance with extra-terrestrial beings of many kinds.
but there are many more things that will never be real, only in the writers and our imagination.
and like I said to the other guy it still makes for a great story.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
I find your lack of faith ... disturbing. You should not doubt the power of the Force...
Wait wrong IP again, get them mixed up all the time. :P
But yeah, the Jenolan sphere moved, but as to how it moved was left, I think, unexplained fore future FE's. It did actually end with the annoying "To be Continued" line...
if you watched the cutscenes that come on the completion of each tier of dyson rep you got all the technobabble there or at least more then enough for my liking thanks.
example of technobabble follows.
regarding the transporter, when asked "How does the Heisenberg compensator work?" by Time magazine, Star Trek technical adviser Michael Okuda responded: "It works very well, thank you."
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
I propose instead that the star involved must be either an M-type red dwarf, or possibly a white dwarf (which might also explain what happened to the original inhabitants - red dwarfs tend to flare more than most main-sequence stars, while white dwarfs will tend to have a nova event every few million years or so as they run out of one element and start fusing another).
The flaring tendencies of red dwarfs could also explain both the size and the uninhabitability of the Jenolan sphere.
Up until the last few pages, this was a fine topic / debate about Dyson Spheres in Star Trek and what they could and could not do.
As loads of us have rebutted every angle you could come up with to discredit the Dyson Sphere being built, maintained and being moved, you are just trolling and wasting everyones time at this point.
And sarcastic comments to someone who was not addressing you just reinforces what I have just written about you just trolling now.
Who's Michael Okuda?
Ok. let's start with James Joyce's Ulysses.
"The point of fiction is to give the audience something that they can't experience IRL."
What in that novel lives up to your statement?
After that we can try a Faulkner novel. Or maybe Joseph Conrad's Lord Jim or heck let's just go straight to Moby ****, since that's actually been brought up in a Star Trek movie before.
Well played.
Probably right. The TOS crew was noted to argue with directors that certain controls already had specified functions and thus tried to maintain cohesion. TNG had Gates McFadden trying to keep the medicine accurate as she could on the show to keep it believable.
So I can fully believe that if there was no one reining in the writers some truly horrific stuff got through.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
So... while Kirk was officially listed as KIA, the more in depth entry probably reads as "missing, presumed dead". This is actually supported in the movie when they briefly explain why the Enterprise can't get a good transporter lock through the interference. I think the phrase was "It's like they're phasing out of the space time continuum."
My character Tsin'xing
You mean like how people get ripped apart by atom and reforms at another location without any serious damage to the person? Or how a piece of computer software can translate some completely unknown language into English by only hearing a couple of sentences? Or how a piece of alien technology can transform any race to look completely identical to humans except for some cybernetic implants even though they have never encountered humans before?
Star Trek and most Science Fiction is full of things that "can't and shouldn't exist". Which is why Science Fiction is fun. The Dyson Sphere is an interesting concept that tells an interesting story as proved by the Ringworld series. Sometimes Science Fiction authors get it right and what "can't and shouldn't exist" is actually possible. So saying that we shouldn't have Dyson Spheres in a Soft Science Fiction game because Dyson Spheres can't and shouldn't exist is disrespecting the whole Soft Science Fiction genre. Dyson Spheres should be in a Soft Science Fiction game because Soft Science Fiction requires things that "can't and shouldn't exist."
Personally, I have to wonder why you are even into Star Trek considering all the content that "can't and shouldn't exist" it has. Star Trek is not Hard Science Fiction and contains a ton of ridiculous content. After all, people don't watch it because it is a realistic look at the Future 300 years from now, but because it is entertaining, has interesting ideas, and is not like reality. Dyson Spheres is Star Trek canon due to the Relics episode and the more Star Trek references we have in STO the better.
What you were objecting to has nothing to do with science as we know it. "Omega particles" aren't really a thing, so saying what they can and can't do makes no sense. Perhaps they can fuel an instantaneous jump of an entire Dyson shell and its associated star from one point in the Galaxy to another. You can't really nitpick the science of something where there's no science.
The same thing applies to gravity generators. They have them in Star Trek - we've seen them in every single episode. They work even when the ship has no power. We have no idea how long they can operate without maintenance. However, they have no even theoretical basis in modern science.
However, stellar characteristics are pretty well understood in today's world. There are stars that emit water. There are brown dwarfs. There are no brown dwarfs that give off visible light - that's why we call them "brown dwarfs".
The cases are hardly comparable, and your condescension is unnecessary and unwarranted.