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Gravity Well Is Ruining PVP

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    hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited December 2013
    But it's not Yo-Yo Demands from the Playerbase. It's Yo-Yo Development from the Developers.

    There's no tweak...there's no fine touch. It's heavy handed swinging of the pendulum.

    Say you ask for toast. I give you a piece of bread. It's barely warm. You say that you wanted toast. Moments later, I give you a burnt husk of bread that's still smoldering as it crumbles at the touch. You say that you wanted toast.

    Do you need to see a shrink for what you see as obvious bipolar disorder on your part? Or do I maybe need to learn how to make toast?

    A very apt analogy.
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    centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    But it's not Yo-Yo Demands from the Playerbase. It's Yo-Yo Development from the Developers.

    There's no tweak...there's no fine touch. It's heavy handed swinging of the pendulum.

    Say you ask for toast. I give you a piece of bread. It's barely warm. You say that you wanted toast. Moments later, I give you a burnt husk of bread that's still smoldering as it crumbles at the touch. You say that you wanted toast.

    Do you need to see a shrink for what you see as obvious bipolar disorder on your part? Or do I maybe need to learn how to make toast?

    And this is why I don't trust doctors anymore. :D
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    dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    GW stops ruining pvp as soon as you put 3 points into dampners, its like its not there at all with that and more.


    GW is real funny right now, its totally foolproof, specing into it or having high aux make almost no difference, dampners nullifys it, even my tac cap AtB ships can use GW1 and it seems to work as well as that sci captain in the vesta next to me using version 3.

    gravity well Is simply making me lol at PVP now, and makes pve even more trivial.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    makes pve even more trivial.

    What Willard's been dorking around with in ISE or Breach...

    GW1
    SS1
    Scan3
    HY1 Omega
    TS3 Grav Photon
    Destabilized Plasma

    And just flying off to the next target/group of targets, because there's no point in waiting. They die. Between the GW's DoT, the Grav Photon Mini Grav's DoTs, the splash from the Omega and Beach Ball...and more DoTs. They die.

    In PvP, it's a case of tossing in a DPA1 Web Mines and a R-Tet Cascade to the mix on a Carrier...with the SNB.
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    bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    But it's not Yo-Yo Demands from the Playerbase. It's Yo-Yo Development from the Developers.

    There's no tweak...there's no fine touch. It's heavy handed swinging of the pendulum.

    Say you ask for toast. I give you a piece of bread. It's barely warm. You say that you wanted toast. Moments later, I give you a burnt husk of bread that's still smoldering as it crumbles at the touch. You say that you wanted toast.

    Do you need to see a shrink for what you see as obvious bipolar disorder on your part? Or do I maybe need to learn how to make toast?
    Possibily it would be better to say that the playerbase will never be happy regardless of the way their toast is prepared by the cook because the same toast will never satisfy everyone equally meaning someone will always complain about how their toast is too strong or weak when it comes time to be eaten.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Possibily it would be better to say that the playerbase will never be happy regardless of the way their toast is prepared by the cook because the same toast will never satisfy everyone equally meaning someone will always complain about how their toast is too strong or weak when it comes time to be eaten.

    Oh, there's little doubt about that. Not everybody wants the same thing. They can't please everybody...

    ...but in the end, eh?

    Thomas is complaining that his toast is barely warm or complaining that his toast is charcoal.
    Richard complains when the toast is barely warm but is happy with the charcoal.
    Harold is happy when the toast is barely warm but complains when it is charcoal.

    Richard and Harold might not be as happy with it not being at the extremes, but they'll also be less unhappy with it being at the opposite extreme...if Thomas gets his toast. :P

    And damn it, I don't have any butter to make toast. Yeah, TRIBBLE Thomas, Richard, and Harold...I like my toast with butter. Not margarine - not jam - not jelly - not marmalade - but with butter. Not honey butter...just butter. ;)
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    bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Oh, there's little doubt about that. Not everybody wants the same thing. They can't please everybody...

    ...but in the end, eh?

    Thomas is complaining that his toast is barely warm or complaining that his toast is charcoal.
    Richard complains when the toast is barely warm but is happy with the charcoal.
    Harold is happy when the toast is barely warm but complains when it is charcoal.

    Richard and Harold might not be as happy with it not being at the extremes, but they'll also be less unhappy with it being at the opposite extreme...if Thomas gets his toast. :P

    And damn it, I don't have any butter to make toast. Yeah, TRIBBLE Thomas, Richard, and Harold...I like my toast with butter. Not margarine - not jam - not jelly - not marmalade - but with butter. Not honey butter...just butter. ;)

    Which is a good analogy of the point I had hoped I had made. The playerbase will not be happy due to an inabilty to agree on what make them happy as a whole.
    We all want balance but it may not be possible to balance everything to everyones happiness because everyones happiness differs in definition.

    If GW is made too weak again, some will still complain.
    If GW is made middle of the road, some will still complain that its too weak or too strong.
    If GW is left as it is... well already have complaints.

    All I know is I'm now having croissants instead of toast with my dinner becuase I can no longer decide how to have my toast.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    All I know is I'm now having croissants instead of toast with my dinner becuase I can no longer decide how to have my toast.

    Mmmmm, toasted croissant with honey ham, smoked swiss, and maple bacon...
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    ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    rmy1081 wrote: »

    I'm glad though that GW finally works. It has solid counters, it's just people have to change their builds a little and they'll be fine.


    That's not how it actually works when you are dealing with force multipliers / control powers that fundamentally change teaming dynamics.

    For one thing, there are only so many concessions you can make on a top end build before you slide into a more mediocre jack of all trades build.

    Sure you're more resistant, but you are also less effective.


    The other thing is that once you have something like this dominating at the team level, the only counter is to try and outspam the opposing team.

    They have 3 EWP or 3 GW or 3 of each? Well, you should try to have 4+ of each.


    That kind of escalation is something that completely dominates the metagame, and generally makes the game unfun, boring and even frustrating.

    AoE Control/Force Multipliers, self buffs, target debuffs and target heals all really need to have some kind of diminishing returns formula applied to them.

    I'd be happy if they started with the AoE Force Multipliers, as they are consistently the worst offenders that wreak havoc on the metagame.
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    talzerotwotalzerotwo Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Gw itself is fine. Its the force multipliers as mentioned above. That said i much prefer this state of the game where a sci ship is a danger when its focused around crowd control. Again as an engi i dont have the problems some of you are having against it. Bring on the challenge.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    talzerotwo wrote: »
    Gw itself is fine. Its the force multipliers as mentioned above. That said i much prefer this state of the game where a sci ship is a danger when its focused around crowd control. Again as an engi i dont have the problems some of you are having against it. Bring on the challenge.

    It's not just a Sci Vessel. Any boat that can slot a LCdr Sci can drop in GW and with the 6th Active DOFF, DOFF up that GW if they like...and add to the spammage.
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    donrahdonrah Member Posts: 348
    edited December 2013
    That's not how it actually works when you are dealing with force multipliers / control powers that fundamentally change teaming dynamics.

    For one thing, there are only so many concessions you can make on a top end build before you slide into a more mediocre jack of all trades build.

    Sure you're more resistant, but you are also less effective.


    The other thing is that once you have something like this dominating at the team level, the only counter is to try and outspam the opposing team.

    They have 3 EWP or 3 GW or 3 of each? Well, you should try to have 4+ of each.


    That kind of escalation is something that completely dominates the metagame, and generally makes the game unfun, boring and even frustrating.

    AoE Control/Force Multipliers, self buffs, target debuffs and target heals all really need to have some kind of diminishing returns formula applied to them.

    I'd be happy if they started with the AoE Force Multipliers, as they are consistently the worst offenders that wreak havoc on the metagame.

    Agreed. You can stack damage buffs and debuffs to the ceiling so that one BFAW boat can wipe out whole teams single-handed. Just as OP, the vapers that get to turn a ~2K damage array of DHC's into ~26K, even with common gear. Why? It's because there's no limit to stacking this stuff. The only reason shields work at all is because there are equally OP healing spells that keep the shields refilling faster than the DPS drains them. So you don't really have shields, your shields are only as good as the amount of healing your abilities. There might as well not be any shields. They aren't really shields, they're just an extra health bar that is kept up by lots of rapid healing.

    It's like giving a wizard a smith's hammer to repair his armor every time he takes damage. He just hammers out the damage in the middle of battle at a blinding pace. The armor doesn't protect him, the hammer does by keeping the armor from failing because it would if not for the constant repair work it receives. The armor would be worthless without the hammer and shields would be worthless if not healing abilities. So the only reason EPTS, TSS, ST, etc. exist is because shields are pathetically weak.

    So, that means if you eliminate healing of any kind, shields would have to be able to take on about 4K DPS across all four facings, roughly 1K DPS for each facing. Current regeneration of shields doesn't even come close to that. Best case scenario, you can regen 385 every 6 seconds. This is also why Tactical Team exists. There's just not enough regen to handle that much immense damage. So it's just broken mechanics trying to make up for other broken mechanics that never stop feeding the power creep.
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    rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    That's not how it actually works when you are dealing with force multipliers / control powers that fundamentally change teaming dynamics.

    For one thing, there are only so many concessions you can make on a top end build before you slide into a more mediocre jack of all trades build.

    Sure you're more resistant, but you are also less effective.


    The other thing is that once you have something like this dominating at the team level, the only counter is to try and outspam the opposing team.

    They have 3 EWP or 3 GW or 3 of each? Well, you should try to have 4+ of each.

    I totally understand. I wrote this kind of a while ago and the game has changed a lot since then. It still can mostly be stupid easy to escape a GW though. Like DDIS said earlier, 3 points into ID and you're good to go. The real problem is when GW gets stacked. My PvE science Odyssey with the chevron's GW3 and my GW1 with no points into Grav Gen can hold most anything and pulls like a fully buffed GW3 on my actual Science toon. I'm all for strong cc, but only if there's an opportunity cost.
    That kind of escalation is something that completely dominates the metagame, and generally makes the game unfun, boring and even frustrating.

    AoE Control/Force Multipliers, self buffs, target debuffs and target heals all really need to have some kind of diminishing returns formula applied to them.

    I'd be happy if they started with the AoE Force Multipliers, as they are consistently the worst offenders that wreak havoc on the metagame.

    This x (biggest number one can think of)!!!

    I've been running a fleet nova with SS + TS3 + grav torpedo + GW3 + TBR2 (still need the Doff) + 1 voth science console (for the proton proc) with full aux and it's retardedly strong. This is without any particle gen consoles too, so it can only get stronger... With all this direct-to-hull damage, my energy weapons are only for procs.
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    rexyfrexyf Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    "Oh no, my cruiser's in a Gravity Well! If only I had some kind of Evasive Maneuvers ability, possibly as a built-in feature for all classes!" :rolleyes:
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    rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I think the main issue is that even a halfassed skilled GW (3 points in gravitons, maybe a deflector for lulz, total skill of 60ish) applied with an aux battery pumping up the aux to max...

    requires:

    The same 3 skill points in inertial AND either evasive or omega AND high engine power AND probably an engine battery to break.

    You get away and it drags you right back in.

    Anyone who has stacked more than 200 gravitons is virtually impossible to get away from, without all out speccing/stacking enough stuff to beat it.

    Not hard for a sci to all out spec either.

    Seems like the snare break mechanics and borked vs the snaring mechanics

    Holds are good and all, but when you have to use multiple counters for ONE hold, thats excessive, and due to durations/cooldowns, in many cases the holder can reapply a hold before any counter is available again.

    I think the counterpoints have been overstated in the forum here, as i can make builds that will completely shut down anyone aside from a dedicated risian lolboat (and those cant even hurt the build trying to control it, usually)
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    bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Mmmmm, toasted croissant with honey ham, smoked swiss, and maple bacon...

    <looks at reply> <looks at plain old croissant> Damnit! <grabs keys and goes to store>
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
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    twamtwam Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Holds are good and all, but when you have to use multiple counters for ONE hold, thats excessive, and due to durations/cooldowns, in many cases the holder can reapply a hold before any counter is available again.

    To be fair, quite a lot of people are already using APO and/or Polarise Hull anyway, to name two hard counters.
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    ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    My sci captains with GW3 and ~180 gravgens can hold about half the players I tangle with (more when I start adding anti-counters), but my engi Ambassador with GW1 and zero gravgens [but max Aux from EPS et al] has trouble holding some NPCs. It seems to me, without really making a formal study of it, that the graviton side of things scale pretty well.

    The real issue is that its still the best AOE control ability for my engi, even in its weak state.

    I still think the big problem is that its too much magic that cant be balanced. Sci ship should launch a destructible graviton probe. That would change the nature of the thing completely and allow it to be further balanced in a couple of different ways.
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    scurry5scurry5 Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    twam wrote: »
    To be fair, quite a lot of people are already using APO and/or Polarise Hull anyway, to name two hard counters.

    A little info - Polarize Hull does not counter Grav Well pull.
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    twamtwam Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    scurry5 wrote: »
    A little info - Polarize Hull does not counter Grav Well pull.

    Ah, sorry, seemed to recall it did. My bad. Aux2Dampeners, then? Though that one's anathema to many people, I realise ^^
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    donrahdonrah Member Posts: 348
    edited December 2013
    scurry5 wrote: »
    A little info - Polarize Hull does not counter Grav Well pull.

    However, it does counter the tractor beam they'll probably be using to keep you from escaping the gravity well and it gives you hull resistance you didn't have a moment ago, which is useful for the kinetic damage you'll be taking.
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    scurry5scurry5 Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    donrah wrote: »
    However, it does counter the tractor beam they'll probably be using to keep you from escaping the gravity well and it gives you hull resistance you didn't have a moment ago, which is useful for the kinetic damage you'll be taking.

    That is true, but many people think that PH is a hard, direct counter to GW pull, which it isn't. Was just correcting that little factoid. :)
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    ankokunekoankokuneko Member Posts: 318 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I think its time for me to make a palisade with gw with doff, ewp with doff, and tbr with pull doff. Maybe make it atb also and spam aux batteries/rmc, maybe add some aceton assimilators. While were at it make it a bfaw boat also. The only thing missing would be tif
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    hanoverhanover Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    So what is the best counter when some "premade" is huddling close together and spamming you with gravity well, warp plasma, and tractor beams? :rolleyes:

    I can get away from the gravity well with emergency power to engines and impulse capacitance cell, then I'm hit with tractor beams and the plasma spam starts coming. So I hit polarize hull and hazard emitters to break free and clear the plasma fire, then the next joker starts in with a new gravity well. It's a lame, cheesy way to get kills, and it takes forever to put me down that way.

    The obvious solution is just avoid the grouping and try to draw off individuals, but they cower in their little group.
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    twamtwam Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    hanover2 wrote: »
    So what is the best counter when some "premade" is huddling close together and spamming you with gravity well, warp plasma, and tractor beams? :rolleyes:

    I can get away from the gravity well with emergency power to engines and impulse capacitance cell, then I'm hit with tractor beams and the plasma spam starts coming. So I hit polarize hull and hazard emitters to break free and clear the plasma fire, then the next joker starts in with a new gravity well. It's a lame, cheesy way to get kills, and it takes forever to put me down that way.

    The obvious solution is just avoid the grouping and try to draw off individuals, but they cower in their little group.

    I get what you're saying, but if it's just that, I'm ok with it. I'll, APO/HE, recloak and hit'n'run them, tank it out or sci gizmo back, depending on my build.

    It hardly ever is, though. These days, that stuff tends to be the introduction to Yellowstones, Black Ball console, AMS, TIF, GPG and some other stuff. At that point, I'm starting to feel, one of the only responses is to just stop playing them, preferably as a team. And then again if you run into them again. Until they get the point. The alternative is to load all kinds of cheese onto my own ships, and I refuse to do that.
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    captainednacaptainedna Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    When enough gw are spammed the game lags like some cheap indi shet .I guess its up to players to delete game effects because the game has no option to disable visual spam.
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    donrahdonrah Member Posts: 348
    edited December 2013
    hanover2 wrote: »
    So what is the best counter when some "premade" is huddling close together and spamming you with gravity well, warp plasma, and tractor beams? :rolleyes:

    I can get away from the gravity well with emergency power to engines and impulse capacitance cell, then I'm hit with tractor beams and the plasma spam starts coming. So I hit polarize hull and hazard emitters to break free and clear the plasma fire, then the next joker starts in with a new gravity well. It's a lame, cheesy way to get kills, and it takes forever to put me down that way.

    The obvious solution is just avoid the grouping and try to draw off individuals, but they cower in their little group.

    Attack Pattern Omega + Hazard Emitters or Jam Sensors/Polarize Hull + Hazard Emitters + Auxiliary to Dampeners/Evasive Maneuvers

    Polarize Hull is more accessible across ship classes than APO for dealing with tractor beams, but APO does four jobs. It nullifies tractor beam, eject warp plasma, and gravity well at the same time. It also gives you a maneuverability boost. Jam Sensors must target the ship using the tractor beam and if there is more than one tractoring you, it's useless. Polarize Hull and APO would be the primary choices. Hazard Emitters will clear plasma fire and the movement debuff. You could also divert power to engines to increase your chances of getting out. So if you know what you're doing, a GW+EWP combo is very easy to escape. Be ready with a backup if they Sub Nuc you. Taking both PH and APO would be advisable.
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    talzerotwotalzerotwo Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Well obviously this wont on some folks builds but I normally do the following.

    Evasive. If that doesn't work, Engine Battery. If that doesn't work, APO. If that doesn't work, Emergency Power to Engines. (usually saving what I consider "the best for last" as my EPT_ is tied into my warp core cleanse doff, if im mired in plasma or theta i'd using my he1, but normally don't have too with the warp core doff). Toss in an AtB somewhere there at some point for the AtB doffs, and one should be golden. It doesn't work all the time, but it does work for me most of the time, mostly the work comes in timing when to use what and expecting what the opponent team will be using on you in what order... counters to countering your counter.
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    marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    All the grav wells everywhere is getting annoying. I'm guilty of spamming it a lot lately too, using a fleet dhelan with a2b to keep spamming it at global with doff, but after seeing how much I lag myself and others when everyone else is spamming it too I stopped doing it.
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    rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    At the end of the day its all about the stupid doff really. The same with every other power that is apparently a "problem"

    I use GW pretty liberally on my sci chars. But even I find something horribly amiss in firing off FIVE gravity wells in sequence just because I have a doff.

    Doesnt happen all the time, but 3-4 is pretty regular.
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