The only thing killing pvp is the guys that cloak, hide and never come out, unless its for a suckerpunch:mad: battle cloak is great for everything else, just not in pvp.
That's merely a symptom, not a cause.
Right now, cloak is pretty useless in PvP with all the FAW Balls dominating the queues. Bringing cloak tactics to PvP in its current form gives you a very small, if any, window of opportunity for a strike before being melted by beams so the only real option is to either sit on the sidelines or bide your time till one of the members of the opposing team breaks or wanders off from the rest.
The only thing killing pvp is the guys that cloak, hide and never come out, unless its for a suckerpunch:mad: battle cloak is great for everything else, just not in pvp.
a cloaking alpha striker is one of the best tools one can have on their team imo
when you see guys that are known for those tactics, it keeps you on your toes and your crossheals constantly flowing
i know, because I have a couple toons that can instavape out of cloak, but its a lot of patience. (that and i usually end up reverting back to dogfighting forgetting im on a cloak striker, lol)
besides, unless youre running an escape build (which most roms do, unfortunately), youre toast the moment you decloak strike anyway. if your target isnt dead within that 5 seconds, youre 9 times out of 10 tractor beamed or gravity welled with a subnuke and blown to ash
unless its against the inexperienced or people that are completely not working together at all.
i am a successful alpha striker, but against a competent team setup I find myself at the spawn point more often than not right there with the guy i just vaped. =/
ive actually put together a sci toon dedicated to sniffing them out and 1v1 vs them (so it basically leaves the rest of the teams on each side to fight while the alpha and i play cloak and dagger with each other, there is one guy ive been running into a lot who i respect the hell out of, we kill each other back and forth)
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I disagree, while i think two cloak vapers are a bit excessive, one is a very credible team space.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Doesn't anyone use Evasive Maneuvers and Emergency Power To Engines? I find that gets me away from gravity Wells. It gets a lot harder when a Tractor Beam is involved.
The way this seems to be going is science is either too good or useless. It seems that both science ships and escorts now have more use than eng captains and our cruisers. There's only so much eng cruisers can do for their teammates when they're being slagged by gravity ewlls, subnucs, alpha strikes, etc. I would say a bit of a buff is needed for team heal abilities.
The way this seems to be going is science is either too good or useless. It seems that both science ships and escorts now have more use than eng captains and our cruisers. There's only so much eng cruisers can do for their teammates when they're being slagged by gravity ewlls, subnucs, alpha strikes, etc. I would say a bit of a buff is needed for team heal abilities.
I agree Engineers need a balance pass or a buff to make them more desirable for teams but it doesn't really address or change the issue of everyone running BFAW builds. It would simply help one FAW team with an Engineer potentially outlast another FAW team without one. Worst case scenario, both teams have an engineer and nobody dies.
You're still going to be stuck in a 40 minute to an hour or more match.
The way this seems to be going is science is either too good or useless. It seems that both science ships and escorts now have more use than eng captains and our cruisers. There's only so much eng cruisers can do for their teammates when they're being slagged by gravity ewlls, subnucs, alpha strikes, etc. I would say a bit of a buff is needed for team heal abilities.
The way I look at it, these expansive changes cryptic has made is like an ocean of effect. If you were to comb through all those changes, taking notice of when and what increase came for whatever reason and color-code that into yellow for power changes, blue for science abilities and red for damage changes, you could look into that ocean and the color you'd probably see is a deep red, blurring into purple maybe.
Perhaps this is all foundation work for something greater, like level 60 that branflakes confirmed was coming relatively soon and with a surprising affirmation of tone. Who knows though, right? So albeit that engineering capts have only recently begun to have their home plate dusted off with a revitalization to cruisers some of that same proverbial dust for science captains happened recently so I'm willing to wait and see. Who knows what fantastic ability/conceptually blossomed release they have on their white board which is likely to dwarf any concerns about gravity well in relation to PVP. Good ideas usually remain there until fruition.
IMO though, gravity well's reawakening was needed for PVP. There were so many ships zipping around like a stirred nest of hornets at one point it was ridiculous. At least those hornets have to think a little more before they sting.
LOL you think GW is bad, try being hit with GW+TR+TB at the same time with all the negative energy siphoning to go along with it. I myself got uber spammed by some sci ships using the above 3+scrambled sensors+placated+viral matrix+subsystem drained. :eek::D
Mind expanding on the anti-cloak stuff? I'm asking b/c I honestly haven't noticed it. I don't mean Raiders which have been hosed for a long while now sans niche builds.
But, Warbirds have singularity powers in addition to boffs and console stuff to get out of hot water. For example, I've been messing around w/the sing charge reset console and jump console that gives up to 3 jumps in a fairly short time frame if desired. High Aux preset and clearing any stealth debuffs generally keeps people from seeing my ship cloaked. Defensive prebuffs and taking an approach vector not in the middle of a FaW ball buys enough time to do what I want.
But, I've seen a lot of complaints about this. I figured most of them never flew when KDF Raiders were squishy and there were a TRIBBLE ton a phaser procs to deal with. So, they never new about picking approach vectors, using aux2damp to run w/stun immunity, ET and eng batt to restore engine power etc.
Well right. A Warbird wouldn't be as concerned with being accidently popped out of cloak. They can have all the standard tactics plus a good helping of Rommie Boffs, and Singularity abilities.
It really has zero to do with attack runs or being sighted in stealth. Just now you may have multiple GW's being pushed out, and if you happen to be near a target, well there you go.
So that's why I said it "partly puts a standard stealth build in a bad place" because it's just a bit of icing on a rather large cupcake just now. I admit I also don't remember when KDF raiders were squishy. Must have been pre Beta.
As far as 'anti cloak stuff' I'm the wrong guy to ask. I mean as of a week ago it was possible to sight someone in stealth from 20k away, but if that's being used a TRIBBLE ton in PUGS it would be news to me. That is sort of poopy I guess. Maybe that's changed I honestly don't know.
LOL you think GW is bad, try being hit with GW+TR+TB at the same time with all the negative energy siphoning to go along with it. I myselg got uber spammed by some sci ships using the above 3+scrambled sensors+placated+viral matrix+subsystem drained. :eek::D
There isn't a science vessel in the game that would use Gravity Well III, Viral Matrix I, Scramble Sensors II, Tractor Beam II, Energy Siphon I, and Jam Sensors I all on the same ship. That would require several consoles for Flow Capacitors, Graviton Generators, Particle Generators, and Countermeasure systems all at the same time in order to be remotely effective. That leaves 1-2 ensign science slots for Hazard Emitters I and Transfer Shield Strength I, with no room for Polarize Hull I.
Not to mention simply popping Science Team + Hazard Emitters + Auxiliary to Intertial Dampers will clear everything. Or, pick up one of those warp core engineers and instantly clear every debuff on your ship every 15 seconds. Thanks Cryptic, for such a great working as intended duty officer..not.
LOL you think GW is bad, try being hit with GW+TR+TB at the same time with all the negative energy siphoning to go along with it. I myselg got uber spammed by some sci ships using the above 3+scrambled sensors+placated+viral matrix+subsystem drained. :eek::D
I prefer ES3+Plasmonic Leech+TR2 with high flow caps. If they fixed the ES system disable doff, it would be great. On the other hand HE ruins everything unless Aux gets drained to zero first. Power insulators also negate it. As far as GW and TR goes, they are fine as-is now. They used to be junk and once they saw fixing them and leaving their mechanics intact would have been OP, they nerfed the damage.
There isn't a science vessel in the game that would use Gravity Well III, Viral Matrix I, Scramble Sensors II, Tractor Beam II, Energy Siphon I, and Jam Sensors I all on the same ship. That would require several consoles for Flow Capacitors, Graviton Generators, Particle Generators, and Countermeasure systems all at the same time in order to be remotely effective. That leaves 1-2 ensign science slots for Hazard Emitters I and Transfer Shield Strength I, with no room for Polarize Hull I.
Not to mention simply popping Science Team + Hazard Emitters + Auxiliary to Intertial Dampers will clear everything. Or, pick up one of those warp core engineers and instantly clear every debuff on your ship every 15 seconds. Thanks Cryptic, for such a great working as intended duty officer..not.
That would be correct, except it was multiple vessels spamming sci skills on me at the same time. :eek:
It really has zero to do with attack runs or being sighted in stealth. Just now you may have multiple GW's being pushed out, and if you happen to be near a target, well there you go.
It can make things...interesting...with the adjusted radius on the GWs and DOFF'd GWs popping up here and there. Those DOFF'd GWs just grab at anything - whether torps/mines, whether pets, or even you while blipping.
Course, in the average pug scenario - they don't even realize they decloaked you. Leaning on the spacebar with daFAW - they don't really notice much of anything going on around them.
Oh dear. Are you suffering from sci CC and zone denial? That's terrible for you!
I'm really very sorry you feel this way...
No, really, I'm not. Sci's finally got some relevance again. Now, we only need some reworking of the shield stripping skills, and sci abilities are in a good place, as far as I'm concerned. The former situation, of sci only being taken for SubNuke, was silly and not good for game health. Now we see cruisers and sci vessels coming back, and I think that's a good thing. It brings skilful and tactical play back into the game, instead of just spacebarmashing or Rommie-Cloak-vaping.
Hint: there are ways of negating push/pull effects. Admission: yes, I am watching for when your APO ends before I pop my GW. Hint #2: if you slot another such negation skill you'll likely blast my sci vessel from the skies.
This, ^ Sorry, I only PVP on occasion, So maybe I shouldn't voice my opinion, BUT I'm not particularly fond of people focus firing me with dual heavy cannons either. But That's the weapons of choice for tacs and mine as a science captain are my science abilities.
There are quite a few groups rolling around that use it, but something our fleet learned tonight in the queues, is that if we split up and force the OPFOR to fight on multiple fronts, its not so easy to just spam the wells down on someone. (yeah sure they will focus down one sacrifical lamb, meanwhile they just burned up their cheese on ONE person leaving four to tear them apart)
We still lost that match 15-4 (i think was the score), but if we hadnt split up it was a guaranteed 15-0 wipeout.
The absolute worst thing you could be doing vs teams that do this, is sit in the "fedball"
GW, subnuke, iso, blam dead... add a few mines and a SIC for lulz?
I get a hoot out of it on my romulans, who can always escape the black ball of death with a singularity jump, but the other races, especially in cruisers (poor Victoria got owned in mentioned match ), end up looking like pinballs bouncing between 2 or 3 of them.
The reality is, Science skills have relevance again, after we had gotten so used to them being utter jokes. A well specced and timed gravity well is absolutely lethal now. And it should be.
The Fedball is about the only tactic Feddies seem able to use, though, aside from the more advanced/skilled players. They just clump up and try to bring their firepower to bear on any KDF that tries to make a run on 'em. Happens a lot in Ker'rat. Even then, it's not a guarantee of success, because sometimes the KDF can team up and bring a good fight. I've been in a group of 3-5 flimsy BoPs fighting a Fedball consisting of cruisers and escorts, and we gave a good fight and 'won' eventually.
awwww, is the poor baby little vaper having trouble getting yanked out of cloak?
I feel your pain. Right here in my dingus.
I just... don't care. Gravity well has had this improvement long coming, and it's nice to see the science AoE skills get brought up to par. If you don't want to spend your time sitting in gravwell, spec some bloody inertial dampers, or mount a polarize hull.
The game already has plenty of viable methods for not sitting in gravity wells that are available to all classes, factions, and play styles. It doesn't need a 'nerf' because you can't spare the points to put in inertial dampers.
Just use Attack Pattern Omega. It only counters everything
The dress is gold and white. Over 70% people says so. When viewed from a certain screen angle it appears blue and black. The dress displayed on amazon is a blue and black dress, but it's not the same dress in the picture. If you're seeing blue & black you're slightly colored blind. A normal upright screen = white and gold.
Polarize Hull grants immunity to GW pull now? According to its description it should only give tractor beam and teleport immunity.
It's a common misconception. For all those people out there, Polarize Hull does nothing to help you against Gravity Well's pull. It only reduces the damage you take (due to the damage resist increase).
The simple fact of the matter that they are again allowing for sci to bring some heat back into the battles again is super, it is something you should expect to be dangerous and not the old rule of it's tac only or go home. :rolleyes:
I'm a TAC and fly a TER, and I am glad the annoyance that is GW is in its current form. Science captains needed something. I don't think its OP or a graphical annoyance. We are ripping apart the fabric space and time after all.
There are counters for everything in this game, some people are unwilling to make the build changes necessary to counter specific obstacles, or to accept their limited cookie-cutter niche role of the uber solo killer, because thats the way they choose to fly. They can choose to adapt to oppose the current FotM build, or fly the way they like.
Many PUGs don't even pay attention enough to run differing copies of their cruiser command abilities (constantly have to politely ask them) on the same team, so I know they could be just there for the marks or just that inexperienced in team play to even bother watching buffs. It is what it is. Effort in = effort out.
Team PvP requires TEAM tactics to win. Period. Its true to every team sport, team PvP game, or any team oriented activity, to gain the ultimate success of winning. Sometimes we get lucky, but to expect to win everything, all of the time, outside of our solo actions/events, is unrealistic.
"Lone Wolves" should have no complaints against 3 GW, 3 Subs, or whatever from 3+ sci captains used to kill 1 ship, because well, they are alone, and chose to make glorious solo fireballs.
The learning curve is steep for PvP, and I think match-making should be tiered in some definitive way, but I don't believe nerfs are needed in this case.
The main issue isn't the PvP learning curve. Three sci ships killing a tacscort with gravity well spam isn't exactly a triumph of strategic genius. :rolleyes:
The issue is the night and day difference in effectiveness brought to the table by an organized team versus a random pick-up team. The solution would then be to queue organized and random teams seperately.
BUT WAIT, then the participation problem becomes a deal-killer. There's barely enough people queueing on a typical night with everyone dropped in the same bucket. What you'd end up with is nobody getting to play.
So, I say the solution must also involve....something...that makes PvP a more attractive option.
Comments
That's merely a symptom, not a cause.
Right now, cloak is pretty useless in PvP with all the FAW Balls dominating the queues. Bringing cloak tactics to PvP in its current form gives you a very small, if any, window of opportunity for a strike before being melted by beams so the only real option is to either sit on the sidelines or bide your time till one of the members of the opposing team breaks or wanders off from the rest.
a cloaking alpha striker is one of the best tools one can have on their team imo
when you see guys that are known for those tactics, it keeps you on your toes and your crossheals constantly flowing
i know, because I have a couple toons that can instavape out of cloak, but its a lot of patience. (that and i usually end up reverting back to dogfighting forgetting im on a cloak striker, lol)
besides, unless youre running an escape build (which most roms do, unfortunately), youre toast the moment you decloak strike anyway. if your target isnt dead within that 5 seconds, youre 9 times out of 10 tractor beamed or gravity welled with a subnuke and blown to ash
unless its against the inexperienced or people that are completely not working together at all.
i am a successful alpha striker, but against a competent team setup I find myself at the spawn point more often than not right there with the guy i just vaped. =/
ive actually put together a sci toon dedicated to sniffing them out and 1v1 vs them (so it basically leaves the rest of the teams on each side to fight while the alpha and i play cloak and dagger with each other, there is one guy ive been running into a lot who i respect the hell out of, we kill each other back and forth)
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
It's when you step back and look at the collective whole...
I thought it was friends who happen to be in the same fleet entering the queues together myself, but you could be on to something...
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
I agree Engineers need a balance pass or a buff to make them more desirable for teams but it doesn't really address or change the issue of everyone running BFAW builds. It would simply help one FAW team with an Engineer potentially outlast another FAW team without one. Worst case scenario, both teams have an engineer and nobody dies.
You're still going to be stuck in a 40 minute to an hour or more match.
The way I look at it, these expansive changes cryptic has made is like an ocean of effect. If you were to comb through all those changes, taking notice of when and what increase came for whatever reason and color-code that into yellow for power changes, blue for science abilities and red for damage changes, you could look into that ocean and the color you'd probably see is a deep red, blurring into purple maybe.
Perhaps this is all foundation work for something greater, like level 60 that branflakes confirmed was coming relatively soon and with a surprising affirmation of tone. Who knows though, right? So albeit that engineering capts have only recently begun to have their home plate dusted off with a revitalization to cruisers some of that same proverbial dust for science captains happened recently so I'm willing to wait and see. Who knows what fantastic ability/conceptually blossomed release they have on their white board which is likely to dwarf any concerns about gravity well in relation to PVP. Good ideas usually remain there until fruition.
IMO though, gravity well's reawakening was needed for PVP. There were so many ships zipping around like a stirred nest of hornets at one point it was ridiculous. At least those hornets have to think a little more before they sting.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Well right. A Warbird wouldn't be as concerned with being accidently popped out of cloak. They can have all the standard tactics plus a good helping of Rommie Boffs, and Singularity abilities.
It really has zero to do with attack runs or being sighted in stealth. Just now you may have multiple GW's being pushed out, and if you happen to be near a target, well there you go.
So that's why I said it "partly puts a standard stealth build in a bad place" because it's just a bit of icing on a rather large cupcake just now. I admit I also don't remember when KDF raiders were squishy. Must have been pre Beta.
As far as 'anti cloak stuff' I'm the wrong guy to ask. I mean as of a week ago it was possible to sight someone in stealth from 20k away, but if that's being used a TRIBBLE ton in PUGS it would be news to me. That is sort of poopy I guess. Maybe that's changed I honestly don't know.
Cheers and watch out for those GW's!!! \o
There isn't a science vessel in the game that would use Gravity Well III, Viral Matrix I, Scramble Sensors II, Tractor Beam II, Energy Siphon I, and Jam Sensors I all on the same ship. That would require several consoles for Flow Capacitors, Graviton Generators, Particle Generators, and Countermeasure systems all at the same time in order to be remotely effective. That leaves 1-2 ensign science slots for Hazard Emitters I and Transfer Shield Strength I, with no room for Polarize Hull I.
Not to mention simply popping Science Team + Hazard Emitters + Auxiliary to Intertial Dampers will clear everything. Or, pick up one of those warp core engineers and instantly clear every debuff on your ship every 15 seconds. Thanks Cryptic, for such a great working as intended duty officer..not.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
I prefer ES3+Plasmonic Leech+TR2 with high flow caps. If they fixed the ES system disable doff, it would be great. On the other hand HE ruins everything unless Aux gets drained to zero first. Power insulators also negate it. As far as GW and TR goes, they are fine as-is now. They used to be junk and once they saw fixing them and leaving their mechanics intact would have been OP, they nerfed the damage.
That would be correct, except it was multiple vessels spamming sci skills on me at the same time. :eek:
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
It can make things...interesting...with the adjusted radius on the GWs and DOFF'd GWs popping up here and there. Those DOFF'd GWs just grab at anything - whether torps/mines, whether pets, or even you while blipping.
Course, in the average pug scenario - they don't even realize they decloaked you. Leaning on the spacebar with daFAW - they don't really notice much of anything going on around them.
In that case, yell at your team to help you out.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
This, ^ Sorry, I only PVP on occasion, So maybe I shouldn't voice my opinion, BUT I'm not particularly fond of people focus firing me with dual heavy cannons either. But That's the weapons of choice for tacs and mine as a science captain are my science abilities.
The Fedball is about the only tactic Feddies seem able to use, though, aside from the more advanced/skilled players. They just clump up and try to bring their firepower to bear on any KDF that tries to make a run on 'em. Happens a lot in Ker'rat. Even then, it's not a guarantee of success, because sometimes the KDF can team up and bring a good fight. I've been in a group of 3-5 flimsy BoPs fighting a Fedball consisting of cruisers and escorts, and we gave a good fight and 'won' eventually.
I feel your pain. Right here in my dingus.
I just... don't care. Gravity well has had this improvement long coming, and it's nice to see the science AoE skills get brought up to par. If you don't want to spend your time sitting in gravwell, spec some bloody inertial dampers, or mount a polarize hull.
The game already has plenty of viable methods for not sitting in gravity wells that are available to all classes, factions, and play styles. It doesn't need a 'nerf' because you can't spare the points to put in inertial dampers.
Curious suggestion there...just saying.
It's a common misconception. For all those people out there, Polarize Hull does nothing to help you against Gravity Well's pull. It only reduces the damage you take (due to the damage resist increase).
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
-TaylorSwift
-LindseyLohan - Under appreciated Rom Bug
-EmiliaClarke - Under construction engi recluse
There are counters for everything in this game, some people are unwilling to make the build changes necessary to counter specific obstacles, or to accept their limited cookie-cutter niche role of the uber solo killer, because thats the way they choose to fly. They can choose to adapt to oppose the current FotM build, or fly the way they like.
Many PUGs don't even pay attention enough to run differing copies of their cruiser command abilities (constantly have to politely ask them) on the same team, so I know they could be just there for the marks or just that inexperienced in team play to even bother watching buffs. It is what it is. Effort in = effort out.
Team PvP requires TEAM tactics to win. Period. Its true to every team sport, team PvP game, or any team oriented activity, to gain the ultimate success of winning. Sometimes we get lucky, but to expect to win everything, all of the time, outside of our solo actions/events, is unrealistic.
"Lone Wolves" should have no complaints against 3 GW, 3 Subs, or whatever from 3+ sci captains used to kill 1 ship, because well, they are alone, and chose to make glorious solo fireballs.
The learning curve is steep for PvP, and I think match-making should be tiered in some definitive way, but I don't believe nerfs are needed in this case.
The issue is the night and day difference in effectiveness brought to the table by an organized team versus a random pick-up team. The solution would then be to queue organized and random teams seperately.
BUT WAIT, then the participation problem becomes a deal-killer. There's barely enough people queueing on a typical night with everyone dropped in the same bucket. What you'd end up with is nobody getting to play.
So, I say the solution must also involve....something...that makes PvP a more attractive option.