Atm i didn't see a single (or group of) GW capable of even slow down my escort, really don't know what people is crying about.
Crusiers getting slow down? is fine, they should have enought tank power for pull their own weight, and enought eng slots for negate most of the kinectic damage, but if they only care about doing more damage with FAW, die like you deserve, this is not and STF, here u need to find a balance beetwen damage and survivability.
About damage, is good, but is far from be OP, maybe is OP for guys running with slow kinectic resistence, and i know MANY do it, thats why always have a blast with my transphasic bop...
Just got an idea, they could add science resists to the aux power level. Of course one would have to balance that so sci powers are not useless but the principal could be fun.
Did the "capture" three shot last night. Two times out of three the opposing team was spamming gravity well + warp plasma + tractor beam.
They probably didn't appreciate my two copies of APO and my Impulse Capacitance Cell console. Killing my glass cannon engscort requires more than spamming up the space magic. :P
Just got an idea, they could add science resists to the aux power level. Of course one would have to balance that so sci powers are not useless but the principal could be fun.
That sounds like a good idea for a Tier IV Reputation passive option. +20% of auxiliary power into:
Science Auxiliary Configuration - Defense: +X Power Insulators, +X Sensors, +X Inertial Dampers
Science Auxiliary Configuration - Offense: +X Flow Capacitors, +X Graviton Generators, +X Countermeasure Systems
Anything that holds a target for any significant duration is not fine.
Anything that decreases flight speed or turn rate is "cheese".
Anything that decreases shield resistance is overpowered (elite fleet disruptors).
Anything that increases a player's cooldowns (AoE or single target) is "cheese".
these area all force multipliers that change the rules of the game when they are applied. in a team seting these have a far greater impact on deciding who lives and dies then anything in the first list. there is no hypocracy, not all factors are created equal.
That sounds like a good idea for a Tier IV Reputation passive option. +20% of auxiliary power into:
Science Auxiliary Configuration - Defense: +X Power Insulators, +X Sensors, +X Inertial Dampers
Science Auxiliary Configuration - Offense: +X Flow Capacitors, +X Graviton Generators, +X Countermeasure Systems
Sounds nice in theory, but in practice, it would suck for sci captains unless the offense bonus is > than the defense one. Why? The defense ones work like armor (at least power insulators does). A +10 power insulators has a much greater effect than a +10 flow capacitors. Not sure why people keep complaining about GW when devs decided to add to the power creep yesterday with the new stats on the fleet tac consoles.
On another note, it has been mentioned before that APO counters the GW. If you have 5 sci ships using it, tough luck, it's a team effort.
I've noticed a pattern here in standard PvP forum threads as well tournaments threads.
Everything that decreases self/team cooldowns is fine.
Everything that provides longterm control immunities is fine.
Everything that increases movement speed and turn rate is fine.
Everything that increases self shield damage resistance is fine.
Anything that holds a target for any significant duration is not fine.
Anything that decreases flight speed or turn rate is "cheese".
Anything that decreases shield resistance is overpowered (elite fleet disruptors).
Anything that increases a player's cooldowns (AoE or single target) is "cheese".
To support the use of one, but not it's counter, is hypocritical. Scramble Sensors duty officers help counter Auxiliary to battery builds, Tractor Beam + Gravity Well builds help counter speed tanking, elite fleet disruptors help solve the problem of elite fleet shields.
If you are fine with Attack Pattern Omega and Auxiliary to Inertial Dampers providing 75% uptime immunity to control effects, then you can't logically complain about Gravity Well holding targets.
If you use an auxiliary to battery build, you have no right complaining about the scramble sensors +10 seconds cooldown duty officer or Temporal Inversion Field.
If you use elite fleet shields, then you have no right to complain about Elite Fleet Disruptors (other than the fact that they are KDF/KDF Romulan only weapons).
If you use Emergency Power to Engines, Attack Pattern Omega, or Auxiliary to Intertial Dampers, you have no right to complain about Beam Target Engines, Tractor Beam, Chroniton Projectile procs, Eject Warp Plasma, Graviton Pulse Generator, Viral Matrix, or Advanced Runabouts.
If you use Warp Core Engineers, Damage Control Engineers, or EPtX chains, you have no solid ground to complain about Tykens Rift + Energy Siphon builds.
If you use all energy weapon builds, you have no solid ground for complaining about feedback pulse.
Gravity Well has over a dozen counters, if 5 players are hitting you with gravity well, you are going to be held once and a while. That doesn't mean the ability is overpowered. If five escorts are shooting you with Beam Overload III, you are going to die. In the same way, if 5 science vessels hit you with Gravity Well, you are going to be held.
This should be stickied in a few forums as a necessary read before posting. In fact, it should be a mandatory read before STO forum registration is complete!!!
Well said Tira. I love how it is fair play when five tacs open up with five alphas on the same target but, when a control or damage effect is doing what it is suppose to escorts get made. This is Cryptics own fault though not he the players. They are the ones that have made DPS king for so long. They have done it in PvE and PvP. Now since other classes are getting some love DPS king players are not liking it. Now they see the down fall of escorts and not playing as a team. Escorts are built for DPS but, they are also a vital roll in the entire team makeup. Escort players are made because their cookie cutter builds have enough DPS to wreck havoc and enough healing to keep themselves out of trouble. It. Not enough counters to stop everything. This is hopefully a beginning to class balancing and mission balancing in PvE.
What it really boils down to is "Nerf B because my setup is for A and I don't want to have to change."
In the end, there is a counter for almost everything. The thing is, though, it is far easier to carry the things requiring counters than the counters themselves.
I think, mind you, if more folks spent time in the new Adventure Zone fighting the Voth there - rather than just Elite Breach/Storming - they'd find themselves getting a better handle on certain Sci abilities. It's a trip, imho, that the Adventure Zone is harder than Elite Breach/Storming. In the instances, they're basically monster farms - in the Adventure Zone, you can get hit up by 2-3 Bulwarks, 2-3 Bastions, 5-6+ Palisades...and all the stuff they can spam at you can be far more problematic than the Elite instances. If folks were to tackle groups there solo - they'd get better, imho, dealing with some of the stuff they get hit with in PvP....
But then isn't the point every PvPer yells from the top of their lungs that you don't go in alone against all that?
To be honest I would expect a good spanking from going up against 3 players, even with the counter. Even the best tank in the game should and usually will crumble against 3 good players.
In any other game if I went up against that many mobs, sheer numbers would be enough to overwhelm you regardless of sub nuke and engine disable spam/abilities. Even if you took the abilities off the table the immunity shield and chroniton transphasics will eat through your hull very fast without good heals.
Then again it is nice to have a use for my tactical initiative in PvE now, just throw it on the person that got sub nuked and watch em get payback *evil grin*
But then isn't the point every PvPer yells from the top of their lungs that you don't go in alone against all that?
Meh, it takes that many NPCs to put out what one or two players can.
I'm surprised that there wasn't as much raging about the Voth as there was with the Elachi (or maybe there was - after all the complaints during LoR, I couldn't deal with testing S9 on Tribble...too depressing).
Personally, I find it a trip actually to face potential death in PvE if I'm careless. It's kind of entertaining.
There wasn't any open testing for S9 so not everyone could rage till day 1 of release.
There are some really BS things with the Voth though like draining all power does not remove immunity shield.
On the whole not a bad enemy but it feels like they were designed to intentionally just take longer to kill as opposed to being difficult. I find the sub nuke is not half as bad as people say. It's annoying but my tank can still tank through it no problems and a lot of cool down reducing doffs stay as effective. Sure I'm not on global for everything when I get sub nuked but I can keep most heals and buffs going.
Still it is nice to have the possibility of death on the table in PvE outside of one shot kills that not many can survive.
I use GWs but,
I don't team up with 5 other GravWellers...that'd be cheap...
Just like a team of 5 FaW/a2b/Dem.
Or 5 alpha decloak dhc strikers.
The problem is , if something works well, 70% of pvp ers run off to create that build.
Then go overboard on it.
Loading up teams of 5 sci GWers
Or 5 man teams of FaW/a2b/Dem
That's why solo pvpers don't like pvp. People go nuts, and will do anything to pug stomp.
There is no easing up, just get 5 of the strongest builds together. And utterly destroy (and take all the fun out of pvp) the pug competition.
I see questionable tactics all the time .. thats why I prefer a 1 on 1 anyday.
*And it should be noted, if you have a crushing GW, chances are your energy weapons will be lackluster.
Granted that wouldn't matter if ur on a team of 5 GW scis cheesing up the galaxy one pvp session at a time.
No more premades, or have an option to not fight them.
Premades are the source of all super cheese. They are the ones "Maximizing their builds" for epic pug stompness. They are the problem. Not the GW.
I use GWs but,
I don't team up with 5 other GravWellers...that'd be cheap...
Just like a team of 5 FaW/a2b/Dem.
Or 5 alpha decloak dhc strikers.
The problem is , if something works well, 70% of pvp ers run off to create that build.
Then go overboard on it.
Loading up teams of 5 sci GWers
Or 5 man teams of FaW/a2b/Dem
That's why solo pvpers don't like pvp. People go nuts, and will do anything to pug stomp.
There is no easing up, just get 5 of the strongest builds together. And utterly destroy (and take all the fun out of pvp) the pug competition.
I see questionable tactics all the time .. thats why I prefer a 1 on 1 anyday.
*And it should be noted, if you have a crushing GW, chances are your energy weapons will be lackluster.
Granted that wouldn't matter if ur on a team of 5 GW scis cheesing up the galaxy one pvp session at a time.
No more premades, or have an option to not fight them.
Premades are the source of all super cheese. They are the ones "Maximizing their builds" for epic pug stompness. They are the problem. Not the GW.
This makes it clear that this game is definitely not balanced. There's too much stacking of buffs/resists and exploits being abused. It's not "cheesy" tactics, it's a symptom of a fundamentally broken game. This is a game based on a franchise that is based on a respect for real science and the game is full of magic powers that make no sense when you think about it. It's like they took the core WoW mechanics and put a coat of Stark Trek paint on it. To make things worse, they keep introducing new items that add even more over-exploited magic powers.
I suggest an implementation of hard caps (or at least exponentially diminishing returns) that makes stacking of anything impractical (i.e. only one GW is actually useful and more than that is a waste). The only important skill in this game is the skill of exploiting a broken system. For instance, take Attack Pattern Alpha. On its own, it's a powerful ability that increases damage to insane amounts and reduces a strategic battle to petty cloak & dagger sniping because you can stack a whole lot of other DPS buffs on top of that. Your DPS is directly proportionate to how much you and your team mates can stack buffs/debuffs. For things like this, there should be a cap of one tactical, one science, and one engineering buff/debuff allowed to be active at any time (i.e you can have CRF on yourself and be affected by an enemy APB as well. Thus, activating TT will clear the buff and the debuff). If another is activated, the prior one is canceled. For the passive buffs and resists from equipped gear (e.g. Aegis Reactive Shielding ability, Rep space sets), shared cool downs (like Mass Effect 2 and 3 implemented) should be applied. If reactive shields activates, all other passive set triggered abilities are put into a 30∓ second cool down, for example.
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Gravity well is completely ruining PVP for me. There are more gravity wells being deployed than torpedoes these days. I spend the entire match sitting in gravity wells. I can't see any of the battle because I'm surrounded by purple. These gravity wells need to be toned down a bit IMO.
The use of GW is only natural considering the abundance on tactical escorts and cloaking.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Let's not forget all the carrier pests, destructable stuff and assorted NPC summoning skills/consoles/devices.
And the Voth consoles add some nice extra damage to environmental damagers such as TR and GW
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
I thought people complained it wasn't strong enough? It was confirmed broken then subsequently fixed and now it's ruining pvp? Meh. I used it before it was fixed, I'm still using it now. It was always great for spam clearing and now it actually behaves ya know, like a gravity well and pulls ships around. It makes it hard for my little torp-sub tvaro to stay cloaked but that's the choice I make to fly that ship in that way.
I've noticed a pattern here in standard PvP forum threads as well tournaments threads.
Everything that decreases self/team cooldowns is fine.
Everything that provides longterm control immunities is fine.
Everything that increases movement speed and turn rate is fine.
Everything that increases self shield damage resistance is fine.
Anything that holds a target for any significant duration is not fine.
Anything that decreases flight speed or turn rate is "cheese".
Anything that decreases shield resistance is overpowered (elite fleet disruptors).
Anything that increases a player's cooldowns (AoE or single target) is "cheese".
To support the use of one, but not it's counter, is hypocritical. Scramble Sensors duty officers help counter Auxiliary to battery builds, Tractor Beam + Gravity Well builds help counter speed tanking, elite fleet disruptors help solve the problem of elite fleet shields.
If you are fine with Attack Pattern Omega and Auxiliary to Inertial Dampers providing 75% uptime immunity to control effects, then you can't logically complain about Gravity Well holding targets.
If you use an auxiliary to battery build, you have no right complaining about the scramble sensors +10 seconds cooldown duty officer or Temporal Inversion Field.
If you use elite fleet shields, then you have no right to complain about Elite Fleet Disruptors (other than the fact that they are KDF/KDF Romulan only weapons).
If you use Emergency Power to Engines, Attack Pattern Omega, or Auxiliary to Intertial Dampers, you have no right to complain about Beam Target Engines, Tractor Beam, Chroniton Projectile procs, Eject Warp Plasma, Graviton Pulse Generator, Viral Matrix, or Advanced Runabouts.
If you use Warp Core Engineers, Damage Control Engineers, or EPtX chains, you have no solid ground to complain about Tykens Rift + Energy Siphon builds.
If you use all energy weapon builds, you have no solid ground for complaining about feedback pulse.
Gravity Well has over a dozen counters, if 5 players are hitting you with gravity well, you are going to be held once and a while. That doesn't mean the ability is overpowered. If five escorts are shooting you with Beam Overload III, you are going to die. In the same way, if 5 science vessels hit you with Gravity Well, you are going to be held.
Makes the head spin does it not. Such complaints di make sense though if the complainer is only out to stengthen their desired gameplay and no one elses.
Its egocentric and biased but it does make sense, just not good or balanced sense.
_one_ grav well is finally working as intended
the problem is now, that several grav well shouldn't stack. the pull of several grav well is far to strong.
m2c
I'm not sure that insulting folks looking for balance...is the way to go.
Too Weak <--- Balanced ---> Too Strong
its a comment to the yo-yo demands of the playerbase that goes from useless to fixed to OP back to useless based on the rotating cries from playerbase.
It reminds me of bipolarism in that no set thought pattern can be maintaned and leads to a cycle of nerf fix nerf fix sideways nerf sideways fix culminating in a platform just as broke as before
_one_ grav well is finally working as intended
the problem is now, that several grav well shouldn't stack. the pull of several grav well is far to strong.
m2c
They could merely makes GW (and similiar powers) affect all targets in range, friend and foe alike, thus making it dangerous to stack them.
its a comment to the yo-yo demands of the playerbase that goes from useless to fixed to OP back to useless based on the rotating cries from playerbase.
It reminds me of bipolarism in that no set thought pattern can be maintaned and leads to a cycle of nerf fix nerf fix sideways nerf sideways fix culminating in a platform just as broke as before
But it's not Yo-Yo Demands from the Playerbase. It's Yo-Yo Development from the Developers.
There's no tweak...there's no fine touch. It's heavy handed swinging of the pendulum.
Say you ask for toast. I give you a piece of bread. It's barely warm. You say that you wanted toast. Moments later, I give you a burnt husk of bread that's still smoldering as it crumbles at the touch. You say that you wanted toast.
Do you need to see a shrink for what you see as obvious bipolar disorder on your part? Or do I maybe need to learn how to make toast?
Comments
Crusiers getting slow down? is fine, they should have enought tank power for pull their own weight, and enought eng slots for negate most of the kinectic damage, but if they only care about doing more damage with FAW, die like you deserve, this is not and STF, here u need to find a balance beetwen damage and survivability.
About damage, is good, but is far from be OP, maybe is OP for guys running with slow kinectic resistence, and i know MANY do it, thats why always have a blast with my transphasic bop...
Aux2cry.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
They probably didn't appreciate my two copies of APO and my Impulse Capacitance Cell console. Killing my glass cannon engscort requires more than spamming up the space magic. :P
That sounds like a good idea for a Tier IV Reputation passive option. +20% of auxiliary power into:
Science Auxiliary Configuration - Defense: +X Power Insulators, +X Sensors, +X Inertial Dampers
Science Auxiliary Configuration - Offense: +X Flow Capacitors, +X Graviton Generators, +X Countermeasure Systems
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
these are all just damage or individual effects.
these area all force multipliers that change the rules of the game when they are applied. in a team seting these have a far greater impact on deciding who lives and dies then anything in the first list. there is no hypocracy, not all factors are created equal.
Sounds nice in theory, but in practice, it would suck for sci captains unless the offense bonus is > than the defense one. Why? The defense ones work like armor (at least power insulators does). A +10 power insulators has a much greater effect than a +10 flow capacitors. Not sure why people keep complaining about GW when devs decided to add to the power creep yesterday with the new stats on the fleet tac consoles.
On another note, it has been mentioned before that APO counters the GW. If you have 5 sci ships using it, tough luck, it's a team effort.
Well said, i agree completely
Chillax. No Ego. No Drama.
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In the end, there is a counter for almost everything. The thing is, though, it is far easier to carry the things requiring counters than the counters themselves.
I think, mind you, if more folks spent time in the new Adventure Zone fighting the Voth there - rather than just Elite Breach/Storming - they'd find themselves getting a better handle on certain Sci abilities. It's a trip, imho, that the Adventure Zone is harder than Elite Breach/Storming. In the instances, they're basically monster farms - in the Adventure Zone, you can get hit up by 2-3 Bulwarks, 2-3 Bastions, 5-6+ Palisades...and all the stuff they can spam at you can be far more problematic than the Elite instances. If folks were to tackle groups there solo - they'd get better, imho, dealing with some of the stuff they get hit with in PvP....
To be honest I would expect a good spanking from going up against 3 players, even with the counter. Even the best tank in the game should and usually will crumble against 3 good players.
In any other game if I went up against that many mobs, sheer numbers would be enough to overwhelm you regardless of sub nuke and engine disable spam/abilities. Even if you took the abilities off the table the immunity shield and chroniton transphasics will eat through your hull very fast without good heals.
Then again it is nice to have a use for my tactical initiative in PvE now, just throw it on the person that got sub nuked and watch em get payback *evil grin*
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Meh, it takes that many NPCs to put out what one or two players can.
I'm surprised that there wasn't as much raging about the Voth as there was with the Elachi (or maybe there was - after all the complaints during LoR, I couldn't deal with testing S9 on Tribble...too depressing).
Personally, I find it a trip actually to face potential death in PvE if I'm careless. It's kind of entertaining.
There are some really BS things with the Voth though like draining all power does not remove immunity shield.
On the whole not a bad enemy but it feels like they were designed to intentionally just take longer to kill as opposed to being difficult. I find the sub nuke is not half as bad as people say. It's annoying but my tank can still tank through it no problems and a lot of cool down reducing doffs stay as effective. Sure I'm not on global for everything when I get sub nuked but I can keep most heals and buffs going.
Still it is nice to have the possibility of death on the table in PvE outside of one shot kills that not many can survive.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I don't team up with 5 other GravWellers...that'd be cheap...
Just like a team of 5 FaW/a2b/Dem.
Or 5 alpha decloak dhc strikers.
The problem is , if something works well, 70% of pvp ers run off to create that build.
Then go overboard on it.
Loading up teams of 5 sci GWers
Or 5 man teams of FaW/a2b/Dem
That's why solo pvpers don't like pvp. People go nuts, and will do anything to pug stomp.
There is no easing up, just get 5 of the strongest builds together. And utterly destroy (and take all the fun out of pvp) the pug competition.
I see questionable tactics all the time .. thats why I prefer a 1 on 1 anyday.
*And it should be noted, if you have a crushing GW, chances are your energy weapons will be lackluster.
Granted that wouldn't matter if ur on a team of 5 GW scis cheesing up the galaxy one pvp session at a time.
No more premades, or have an option to not fight them.
Premades are the source of all super cheese. They are the ones "Maximizing their builds" for epic pug stompness. They are the problem. Not the GW.
This makes it clear that this game is definitely not balanced. There's too much stacking of buffs/resists and exploits being abused. It's not "cheesy" tactics, it's a symptom of a fundamentally broken game. This is a game based on a franchise that is based on a respect for real science and the game is full of magic powers that make no sense when you think about it. It's like they took the core WoW mechanics and put a coat of Stark Trek paint on it. To make things worse, they keep introducing new items that add even more over-exploited magic powers.
I suggest an implementation of hard caps (or at least exponentially diminishing returns) that makes stacking of anything impractical (i.e. only one GW is actually useful and more than that is a waste). The only important skill in this game is the skill of exploiting a broken system. For instance, take Attack Pattern Alpha. On its own, it's a powerful ability that increases damage to insane amounts and reduces a strategic battle to petty cloak & dagger sniping because you can stack a whole lot of other DPS buffs on top of that. Your DPS is directly proportionate to how much you and your team mates can stack buffs/debuffs. For things like this, there should be a cap of one tactical, one science, and one engineering buff/debuff allowed to be active at any time (i.e you can have CRF on yourself and be affected by an enemy APB as well. Thus, activating TT will clear the buff and the debuff). If another is activated, the prior one is canceled. For the passive buffs and resists from equipped gear (e.g. Aegis Reactive Shielding ability, Rep space sets), shared cool downs (like Mass Effect 2 and 3 implemented) should be applied. If reactive shields activates, all other passive set triggered abilities are put into a 30∓ second cool down, for example.
No. It does not make that clear at all.
The use of GW is only natural considering the abundance on tactical escorts and cloaking.
Let's not forget all the carrier pests, destructable stuff and assorted NPC summoning skills/consoles/devices.
*crawls out of a rock and stretches*
Elite Defense Stovokor
And the Voth consoles add some nice extra damage to environmental damagers such as TR and GW
Then you need to get your eyes checked. A system that is so exploitable, even if those exploits are accessible to all players, is imbalanced.
Vanilla Ground PvP information
Ok.
GW is too strong, everybody is using it too much!! I cant play pvp anymore!!
How about some lamictol for the Bipolar instead?
R.I.P
Makes the head spin does it not. Such complaints di make sense though if the complainer is only out to stengthen their desired gameplay and no one elses.
Its egocentric and biased but it does make sense, just not good or balanced sense.
R.I.P
I'm not sure that insulting folks looking for balance...is the way to go.
Too Weak <--- Balanced ---> Too Strong
the problem is now, that several grav well shouldn't stack. the pull of several grav well is far to strong.
m2c
its a comment to the yo-yo demands of the playerbase that goes from useless to fixed to OP back to useless based on the rotating cries from playerbase.
It reminds me of bipolarism in that no set thought pattern can be maintaned and leads to a cycle of nerf fix nerf fix sideways nerf sideways fix culminating in a platform just as broke as before
R.I.P
Give my intrepid refit a uni layout. :P
They could merely makes GW (and similiar powers) affect all targets in range, friend and foe alike, thus making it dangerous to stack them.
R.I.P
But it's not Yo-Yo Demands from the Playerbase. It's Yo-Yo Development from the Developers.
There's no tweak...there's no fine touch. It's heavy handed swinging of the pendulum.
Say you ask for toast. I give you a piece of bread. It's barely warm. You say that you wanted toast. Moments later, I give you a burnt husk of bread that's still smoldering as it crumbles at the touch. You say that you wanted toast.
Do you need to see a shrink for what you see as obvious bipolar disorder on your part? Or do I maybe need to learn how to make toast?