From a pug perspective: Adapt? You mean, I have to do things that would require going trough logs, playing with toons/powers that I wouldn't normally, giving away bunch of energy credits, just to be able to counter something which is stupidly opx5? Sorry, its a game, not a math class.
Teams can have their own que or private matches with a prearranged rules. That way Nova Core and sad pandas can fight till the end of days.
Unfortunately, it still rules. If u know what are u doing. From a 1vs1 perspective as a sci capt, no bfaw setup can do serious harm to me, while 4dhc setup do it quite effective. Of course if capt knows what he is doing.
Anyways, this whole vicious circle has come to beginning, ie. we desperately need new pvp game modes, with meaningful objectives, not just a spacbar bashing arenas.
You have answered your own question, something that is X5 cannot be countered by yourself. It's not supposed to be. You need your team to be able to counter it. It's not supposed to be math either, a simple put your team on TS and bring the right setups would suffice. It's either adapt or face annihilation, simple, gone are the days of double tap and old pressure builds
We faced Ad Inf in the queues with their 5 faw cruisers and our 4 cruisers and a healer. Suffice to say it was close and if you were Captain Kirk, you would be dead.
True Team PVP is totally different to pugstomping, TRIBBLE and hold and Kerrat. It's not just getting 5 JHAS and going into queues. It's about team balance and harmony and finding the right setup to optimise each other's strengths and weakness. If you don't want to do that and put the work in, don't blame the premades you face in queues for finding the time to do it, unfortunately lots of people do and qq, when in fact Cryptic should revamp the queues really.
From a 1vs 1 perspective 4DHC's might be viable, but I am looking at the perspective of Team PVP now, as i no longer care for 1vs 1. I can jump in my Sci and you can bang your head all day if needs be. 1VS1 is very skewed towards who can surive, rather than who can do the most damage.
A 1 vs 1 setup will not be suited to a team setup.
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Which is sort of why some folks have decided to stop running 4 dhc, and run teams that don't simply go focus A focus B... Switch switch switch... Nuke... Switch. bla bla bla.
But with all the crying about specialized killing and not runninf the spacebar smash builds ppl cry about nerf it all so at some point we are all zombies firinG dull weapons which require no timing.
Someone once said this game doesnt require skill, perhaps that day is finally here.
Oh and the FaW being OP is nothing more then the whole overcap business. It was already told this mechanic has been BROKEN almost just as long as double tap to think its simply normal and intended game mechanic.
So where do we end up? FaW again being overpowered and Cryptic has no clue how to ever balance this ability.
GG
ps Zelda is nothing but a little whiner, he whines about double tap and now avout faw, whats next to come? grow up kid.
http://i.imgur.com/QJekAip.jpg if ur team dont run ultra healer and AMS or SS its better WARP out .. Seriously, im not going to adapt to that.. i will keep playing my old escort seeting and dont care. im not going to fallow the dictature way that panda is doing into pvp (exploiting evrything broken) ...
[System] Link has been on active duty for 415 days, 23 hours, 9 minutes, 16 seconds.
[System] Zelda has been on active duty for 126 days, 11 hours, 51 minutes, 48 seconds.
http://i.imgur.com/QJekAip.jpg if ur team dont run ultra healer and AMS or SS its better WARP out .. Seriously, im not going to adapt to that.. i will keep playing my old escort seeting and dont care. im not going to fallow the dictature way that panda is doing into pvp (exploiting evrything broken) ...
Sound like an old man crying. Seriously though, Crytic came out and said its working as intended so man up!
http://i.imgur.com/QJekAip.jpg if ur team dont run ultra healer and AMS or SS its better WARP out .. Seriously, im not going to adapt to that.. i will keep playing my old escort seeting and dont care. im not going to fallow the dictature way that panda is doing into pvp (exploiting evrything broken) ...
You're goal is to shame Pandas for losing a match against a team you weren't even on?
I can't even count the matches against you that you raged at the end or warped out mid match in frustration. Oh NOE those meanies nuked me, TWICE! How dare they!!!!!!
Word of advice, stop trying to ride the backs of other players. It's a shame they fixed those doffs and boffs from earlier this year. ...
Player A
Phaser Array: 3/22 - 13.6%
Beam Array - Fire at Will I: 9/19 - 47.4%
Player B
Antiproton Turret: 10/12 - 83.3%
Cutting Beam: 3/3 - 100%
Player C
Dual Heavy Polaron Cannons: 1/1 - 100%
Player D
Polaron Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 2/4 - 50%
Phased Polaron Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 1/1 - 100%
Player E
Antiproton Turret: 19/27 - 70.4%
Plasma Torpedo - Spread III: 14/14 - 100%
Cutting Beam: 10/13 - 76.9%
Dual Heavy Antiproton Cannons - Rapid Fire III: 10/12 - 83.3%
Dual Heavy Antiproton Cannons: 6/12 - 50%
Antiproton Turret - Rapid Fire I: 1/1 - 100%
Player F
Dual Heavy Crescent Wave Cannons: 0/4 - 0%
Cutting Beam: 3/3 - 100%
Heavy Crescent Wave Cannon: 0/2 - 0%
Player G
Tetryon Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 2/3 - 66.7%
Player H
Directed Energy Modulation III: 43/43 - 100%
Polaron Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 19/34 - 55.9%
Cutting Beam: 1/1 - 100%
Player I
Polaron Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 23/32 - 71.9%
Polaron Array: 18/18 - 100%
Polaron Beam Array - Fire at Will III: 10/13 - 76.9%
Cutting Beam: 5/7 - 71.4%
Player K
Tetryon Array: 4/4 - 100%
Romulan Plasma Array: 2/2 - 100%
Cutting Beam: 1/1 - 100%
I had to chuckle each time I typed out Fire at Will...heh.
So anyway, Willard the Rat sports the following defense bonuses:
Uncloaked...80% to 158.1%
Cloaked...130% to 208.1%
The To-Hit for somebody with the typical Accurate, 9 Targeting, [Acc]x3 weapons would be:
Uncloaked...80% to 49.2%
Cloaked...57% to 39.5%
With that "mega Acc" stuff from another thread:
Uncloaked...98% to 55.5%
Cloaked...65.8% to 43.5%
Yeah, generally speaking there aren't enough hits/swings to make anything out of it overall...pesky Willard the Gnat, blipping about in Ker'rat. Still, there are oddities here and there, imho.
The number of hits continues to leave me wondering if the To-Hit mechanics have not changed and that the spreadsheet some of us use from the old podcast is simply invalid. Have asked a few times (both during senile and non-senile moments...ahem)...haven't seen a dev reply outside of pointing out the senile posts.
The most curious thing, imho mind you, were the DEM hits. 43 DEM hits...from 20 hits. How did he have 43 hits off of 20 hits? Even if you just look at swings, how did he heave 43 DEM hits from 35 swings?
Course, the Cutting Beam was also curious, eh? Sure, there weren't many shots - but there was a guy that took 9 swings with three weapons, missed with 6, hit with 3, and the 3 hits were the Cutting Beam. The Cutting Beam's info has it as a [Dmg]x3 weapon...not as some sort of [Acc]x3-4-5 or so weapon.
But yeah, anyway - folks tend to parse for damage - maybe they should parse for hits/swings, look for any oddities and the like, eh?
I had to chuckle each time I typed out Fire at Will...heh.
So anyway, Willard the Rat sports the following defense bonuses:
Uncloaked...80% to 158.1%
Cloaked...130% to 208.1%
The To-Hit for somebody with the typical Accurate, 9 Targeting, [Acc]x3 weapons would be:
Uncloaked...80% to 49.2%
Cloaked...57% to 39.5%
With that "mega Acc" stuff from another thread:
Uncloaked...98% to 55.5%
Cloaked...65.8% to 43.5%
Yeah, generally speaking there aren't enough hits/swings to make anything out of it overall...pesky Willard the Gnat, blipping about in Ker'rat. Still, there are oddities here and there, imho.
The number of hits continues to leave me wondering if the To-Hit mechanics have not changed and that the spreadsheet some of us use from the old podcast is simply invalid. Have asked a few times (both during senile and non-senile moments...ahem)...haven't seen a dev reply outside of pointing out the senile posts.
The most curious thing, imho mind you, were the DEM hits. 43 DEM hits...from 20 hits. How did he have 43 hits off of 20 hits? Even if you just look at swings, how did he heave 43 DEM hits from 35 swings?
Course, the Cutting Beam was also curious, eh? Sure, there weren't many shots - but there was a guy that took 9 swings with three weapons, missed with 6, hit with 3, and the 3 hits were the Cutting Beam. The Cutting Beam's info has it as a [Dmg]x3 weapon...not as some sort of [Acc]x3-4-5 or so weapon.
But yeah, anyway - folks tend to parse for damage - maybe they should parse for hits/swings, look for any oddities and the like, eh?
A controlled test. A cruiser set to full engines with my cruiser in pursuit. Unrepped Eng /w MK X/XI KHG. Other was a fed cruiser with no rep but MK XII MACO set. All ACCx3 beams
Some other things I have noticed in testing, if you VM/TB a target or a target simply doesn't move, you can hit with 100% accuracy even with non-acc beams. Could use some more testing to verify. IE, try with a ship sitting still while the other ship is evasive. ect ect
The most curious thing, imho mind you, were the DEM hits. 43 DEM hits...from 20 hits. How did he have 43 hits off of 20 hits? Even if you just look at swings, how did he heave 43 DEM hits from 35 swings?
Hmm.....idle speculation, but I wonder if DEM damage is doing something like auto-hitting despite missing with the weapon in question. Or possibly multi-hitting off one hit, or getting triggered by some other ability unrelated to weapons, e.g. each application of APB resulting in a proc.
Man, these things are an awful headache to test.....
Hmm.....idle speculation, but I wonder if DEM damage is doing something like auto-hitting despite missing with the weapon in question. Or possibly multi-hitting off one hit, or getting triggered by some other ability unrelated to weapons, e.g. each application of APB resulting in a proc.
Man, these things are an awful headache to test.....
If there are only 2 targets instead of 5, those 2 targets will get the brunt of the DEM and they will melt like a hot knife through butter, Panda or not Panda
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
after the beam overload changes....how did everyone think that players who want to kill bad guys would respond?
right, find another way to kill bad guys.
turns out, faw and dem on a few players in a team is more powerful than a double tap. and even more frustrating to players receiving it.
its like the difference between getting popped in 3 seconds and you can do nothing about it, or know where it came from... vs getting melted in 7 seconds and you know exactly where it came from.
i gotta tell you...im melting stfs right now. actually the only reason im finishing my rep grinds. its that easy. and i hate stfs man. im pugging on elite and finishing most in under 10 minutes. everyone is faw dem'ing it. with a2b cruisers.
what did they think would happen? cryptic basically, by taking away the ability to spike kill for most, drove all tacs into suppression builds. and then handed us a shiny new cruiser that is perfect for the role.
simply astonishing really that people didnt know this was gonna happen. i saw it coming weeks ago.
after the beam overload changes....how did everyone think that players who want to kill bad guys would respond?
right, find another way to kill bad guys.
turns out, faw and dem on a few players in a team is more powerful than a double tap. and even more frustrating to players receiving it.
its like the difference between getting popped in 3 seconds and you can do nothing about it, or know where it came from... vs getting melted in 7 seconds and you know exactly where it came from.
i gotta tell you...im melting stfs right now. actually the only reason im finishing my rep grinds. its that easy. and i hate stfs man. im pugging on elite and finishing most in under 10 minutes. everyone is faw dem'ing it. with a2b cruisers.
what did they think would happen? cryptic basically, by taking away the ability to spike kill for most, drove all tacs into suppression builds. and then handed us a shiny new cruiser that is perfect for the role.
simply astonishing really that people didnt know this was gonna happen. i saw it coming weeks ago.
have fun kill bad guys
-thrusters on full-
-acceptance-
And now the same people asking for BO nerf are now asking to Nerf FAW, jeeze, it's PVP someone's got to die.
Look at Minimax's Tricobalt build, Nerfed, BO Nerfed,
Next time come will be weapons, your not allowed to kill anyone....
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Hmm.....idle speculation, but I wonder if DEM damage is doing something like auto-hitting despite missing with the weapon in question. Or possibly multi-hitting off one hit, or getting triggered by some other ability unrelated to weapons, e.g. each application of APB resulting in a proc.
Man, these things are an awful headache to test.....
edit: The following is vs. a single target. Although it says 8 swings, it is only 4 shots (each shot being counted as two swings in the table with one shield and one hull).
Test#3
Tetryon Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 10 Swings - 10 Hits
Test#4
Tetryon Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 10 Swings - 10 Hits
Directed Energy Modulation II: 10 Swings - 10 Hits
Test#1 is fine...it lists 8 because of the Shield and Hull hits.
Test#2 is fine...4 additional hull hits because of DEM.
Test#3 is fine...FAW adds a swing/hit, and there are Shield/Hull hits.
Test#4 is WTF?
Test#4 should have been 10x Array (as listed) and 5x DEM (5 shots fired instead of 4).
Which matches up testing in the wild pretty closely. DEM's hitting around twice with FAW.
Yes FAW is powerful and will make unorganized teams/pugs cry. But then again, pugs chances are low against premades, no matter what.
Call me crazy but I don't think that FAW is that overpowered in premade vs. premade clashes. At least I have yet to see proof of FAW being unbeatable OP. The match that nebulgam posted was basically a match between a FAW team against a very classic, conservative spike escorts/healer/sci composition.
Counter, counter-play, counter-counter-play. Thats it.
Although I have a very mean dedicated Tac FAW Cruiser myself, it's certainly not one of my preferred play choices. There is a disconnect between player skill required and net effectivness of these kinda builds. It's just to easy to achieve good results with FAW cruisers. I don't really like it because that playstyle eventually might hinder people to develop real skill. Which may set the stage for mayor whining in the future when the meta changes again.
Test#3
Tetryon Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 10 Swings - 10 Hits
Test#4
Tetryon Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 10 Swings - 10 Hits
Directed Energy Modulation II: 10 Swings - 10 Hits
Test#1 is fine...it lists 8 because of the Shield and Hull hits.
Test#2 is fine...4 additional hull hits because of DEM.
Test#3 is fine...FAW adds a swing/hit, and there are Shield/Hull hits.
Test#4 is WTF?
Test#4 should have been 10x Array (as listed) and 5x DEM (5 shots fired instead of 4).
Which matches up testing in the wild pretty closely. DEM's hitting around twice with FAW.
IIRC DEM is supposed to apply additional damage ("swing") each time you hit with an energy weapon. To me, it looks like test #2 indicates something wrong; DEM is supposed to have applied itself all 8 times.
Are you checking what happens with FAW + DEM against multiple targets?
i haven't run into teams with more then 2 actually good faw boats, but they still are of a lower threat then any good escort. they can FAW me all day, ive got the TT, EPtS, TSS, and RSP i need to hold them off all day. 1 faw boat and 1 escort is still less dangerous to have after you then 2 escorts, or an escort and a sci. its just that theres no way to hide from the damage dealing of a FAW boat, thats its strength.
IIRC DEM is supposed to apply additional damage ("swing") each time you hit with an energy weapon. To me, it looks like test #2 indicates something wrong; DEM is supposed to have applied itself all 8 times.
Are you checking what happens with FAW + DEM against multiple targets?
ya this is what DEM is supposed to do. its an extra flat amount of damage added per swing. thats why its best used with single cannons, and less so with beam actually.
PH, Aux2sif, HE, Hazzard doffs, APD are all hull resists most ships can run, so I don't see normal bleedthrough being an issue (though the BO doffs are too strong for the chance stacking imo perhaps elachi weapons too).
Imo, it's still cooldown reduction of aux2batt et al that's the main issue, w/the epte high uptime being the other.
In the past FaWball would generally be done by slower ships. In general they couldn't dictate when an encounter would begin nor end vs most ships. But, they would melt the faster ships that lingered too long. EPtE and ship power creep has changed that model.
Listing the problems w/the cooldown reduction is beating a dead horse at this point.
It feels similar to when Fleet Torkaht came out and the crtH rep bonus was out w/Aux2batt, but no fleet shields yet in terms of shift in game play.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Wait you guys think finishing elite STF in under 10 mins is good? Anything 5mins or over is bad for a lot of PvE players o.O
Also thanks Naz
On topic though. DEM is supposed to do a certain amount of direct to hull damage based on weapon power so VD your test 2 was wrong not test 4. DEM is buffed by attack pattern buffs and damage resistance debuffs and anything lowering energy weapon drain makes a huge difference to the amount of damage done with DEM.
It won't matter if your shields are healthy it just bypasses it completely and if 4-5 cruisers are getting the increased rate of fire from FAW onto 1-2 targets then you're getting stacking damage resistance debuffs applied quicker than TT can clear it sometimes. Course you need a co-ordinated team with very specific builds to get a good effect from it that but you guys already know that
Wait you guys think finishing elite STF in under 10 mins is good? Anything 5mins or over is bad for a lot of PvE players o.O
Also thanks Naz
On topic though. DEM is supposed to do a certain amount of direct to hull damage based on weapon power so VD your test 2 was wrong not test 4. DEM is buffed by attack pattern buffs and damage resistance debuffs and anything lowering energy weapon drain makes a huge difference to the amount of damage done with DEM.
It won't matter if your shields are healthy it just bypasses it completely and if 4-5 cruisers are getting the increased rate of fire from FAW onto 1-2 targets then you're getting stacking damage resistance debuffs applied quicker than TT can clear it sometimes. Course you need a co-ordinated team with very specific builds to get a good effect from it that but you guys already know that
That goes back to Aux2batt w/the high uptime of high DEM, instead of needing 2 DEMs at least 1 of lower value and frees up a Boff slot for something else like high uptime EPtE/W.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
That goes back to Aux2batt w/the high uptime of high DEM, instead of needing 2 DEMs at least 1 of lower value and frees up a Boff slot for something else like high uptime EPtE/W.
Yeah and if they decide to let cruisers have teeth from higher level engineering abilities I'd be all for saying nerf that s**t but right now it's about the only thing stopping most cruisers from going to the great shipyard in the sky and chillin on a cloud with the Galaxy.
whats explain the thing that strip the shield very fast with all resist imaginable activated when somone is using FAW?
some say faw is not broken its DEM + APB the probleme it destroy your hull in a few seconds !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PLUS we lost resistence cause of the defence from Subterfuge space trait dont sack anymore for some reason
Hello, sorry I'm a bit late to the party here, but I figured some people might want to hear from someone who was involved in the fight that sparked this little tantrum of yours.
You didn't go down because someone was FAWing you to death, you went down because I was hammering you with DHCs at the same time. Your fleetmate who came to help you died a messy death both times after you ran off and left him to die, and after I finally kicked the bucket the FAW boat took you out.
IIRC DEM is supposed to apply additional damage ("swing") each time you hit with an energy weapon. To me, it looks like test #2 indicates something wrong; DEM is supposed to have applied itself all 8 times.
Are you checking what happens with FAW + DEM against multiple targets?
Renim, it's 4 shots reflecting 8 hits. 4 shield hits and 4 hull hits from bleed. A beam only fires 4 shots per cycle. Each test was a single weapon firing a single cycle.
DEM adds hull damage to each shot.
4 shots, 8 hits (1 shield/1 hull), and 4 DEM. That's where Test#2 displayed as it should.
FAW would make it 5 shots, 10 hits (1 shield/1 hull)...with 5 shots, there should be 5 DEM hits...not 10.
On topic though. DEM is supposed to do a certain amount of direct to hull damage based on weapon power so VD your test 2 was wrong not test 4. DEM is buffed by attack pattern buffs and damage resistance debuffs and anything lowering energy weapon drain makes a huge difference to the amount of damage done with DEM.
Again, 4 shots fired. There should be 4 DEM hits. There were 4 DEM hits.
5 shots fired. There should be 5 DEM hits. 10 DEM hits?
I'm thinking Test#2 was right and Test#4 showed an issue with FAW and DEM.
Renim, it's 4 shots reflecting 8 hits. 4 shield hits and 4 hull hits from bleed. A beam only fires 4 shots per cycle. Each test was a single weapon firing a single cycle.
DEM adds hull damage to each shot.
4 shots, 8 hits (1 shield/1 hull), and 4 DEM. That's where Test#2 displayed as it should.
FAW would make it 5 shots, 10 hits (1 shield/1 hull)...with 5 shots, there should be 5 DEM hits...not 10.
every one of the 5 shots FAW fires, if there is at least 2 targets, seems to actually fire 2 shots at those 2 different targets at the same time. you still should have seen 10 hits and 10 dem entries though.
every one of the 5 shots FAW fires, if there is at least 2 targets, seems to actually fire 2 shots at those 2 different targets at the same time. you still should have seen 10 hits and 10 dem entries though.
There was only one target. That should have been clear from the FAW no DEM Test#3 even without my stating it was just a quick controlled test.
I'm reinstalling ACT to check with a different plugin.
edit: I'll edit that post to make it clear that it's a single target and also point out how it's listing hits (doubling them because of the shield and hull).
TYPE DAMAGE ENCDPS AVERAGE MEDIAN MINHIT MAXHIT RESIST HITS SWINGS TOHIT CRIT%
All 4,074 1,358.00 339.50 121 50 1,364 All 12 12 100.00 17%
Tetryon Array 3,497 1,165.67 437.13 571 50 1,364 Shield 8 8 100.00 13%
Directed Energy Modulation II 577 192.33 144.25 117 100 252 Tetryon 4 4 100.00 25%
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
1:36:57 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Tetryon Notus 121 True None
1:36:57 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Shield Notus 1364 False None
1:36:56 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Tetryon Notus 54 False None
1:36:56 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Shield Notus 606 False None
1:36:55 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Tetryon Notus 50 False None
1:36:55 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Shield Notus 571 False None
1:36:54 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Tetryon Notus 60 False None
1:36:54 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Shield Notus 671 False None
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
1:36:57 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 252 True None
1:36:56 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 100 False None
1:36:55 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 117 False None
1:36:54 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 108 False None
TEST#4
TYPE DAMAGE ENCDPS AVERAGE MEDIAN MINHIT MAXHIT RESIST HITS SWINGS TOHIT CRIT%
All 5,420 1,594.12 258.10 98 27 1,043 All 21 21 100.00 19%
Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II 3,782 1,112.35 378.20 473 27 1,043 Shield 10 10 100.00 20%
Directed Energy Modulation II 887 260.88 88.70 98 45 125 Tetryon 10 10 100.00 20%
Omega Graviton Amplifier 751 220.88 751.00 751 751 751 Kinetic 1 1 100.00 0%
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
1:38:40 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Tetryon Notus 60 True Fire at Will II
1:38:40 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Shield Notus 1043 False Fire at Will II
1:38:39 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Tetryon Notus 29 False Fire at Will II
1:38:39 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Shield Notus 514 False Fire at Will II
1:38:38 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Tetryon Notus 27 False Fire at Will II
1:38:38 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Shield Notus 473 False Fire at Will II
1:38:37 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Tetryon Notus 31 False Fire at Will II
1:38:37 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Shield Notus 532 False Fire at Will II
1:38:36 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Tetryon Notus 59 True Fire at Will II
1:38:36 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Shield Notus 1014 False Fire at Will II
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
1:38:40 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 118 False None
1:38:40 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 98 True None
1:38:39 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 95 False None
1:38:39 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 47 False None
1:38:38 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 125 False None
1:38:38 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 46 False None
1:38:37 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 91 False None
1:38:37 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 45 False None
1:38:36 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 111 False None
1:38:36 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 111 True None
Test#2...4 shots, 8 hits (4 shield/4 hull) and 4 DEM.
Test#4...5 shots, 10 hits (5 shied/5 hull) and 10 DEM. <---should be 5.
You can see that it's not a case of the log just copying the same DEM twice, the damage varies per hit. There are 2x DEM per shot that hits when using FAW.
Comments
You have answered your own question, something that is X5 cannot be countered by yourself. It's not supposed to be. You need your team to be able to counter it. It's not supposed to be math either, a simple put your team on TS and bring the right setups would suffice. It's either adapt or face annihilation, simple, gone are the days of double tap and old pressure builds
We faced Ad Inf in the queues with their 5 faw cruisers and our 4 cruisers and a healer. Suffice to say it was close and if you were Captain Kirk, you would be dead.
True Team PVP is totally different to pugstomping, TRIBBLE and hold and Kerrat. It's not just getting 5 JHAS and going into queues. It's about team balance and harmony and finding the right setup to optimise each other's strengths and weakness. If you don't want to do that and put the work in, don't blame the premades you face in queues for finding the time to do it, unfortunately lots of people do and qq, when in fact Cryptic should revamp the queues really.
From a 1vs 1 perspective 4DHC's might be viable, but I am looking at the perspective of Team PVP now, as i no longer care for 1vs 1. I can jump in my Sci and you can bang your head all day if needs be. 1VS1 is very skewed towards who can surive, rather than who can do the most damage.
A 1 vs 1 setup will not be suited to a team setup.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
But with all the crying about specialized killing and not runninf the spacebar smash builds ppl cry about nerf it all so at some point we are all zombies firinG dull weapons which require no timing.
Someone once said this game doesnt require skill, perhaps that day is finally here.
Oh and the FaW being OP is nothing more then the whole overcap business. It was already told this mechanic has been BROKEN almost just as long as double tap to think its simply normal and intended game mechanic.
So where do we end up? FaW again being overpowered and Cryptic has no clue how to ever balance this ability.
GG
ps Zelda is nothing but a little whiner, he whines about double tap and now avout faw, whats next to come? grow up kid.
[System] Zelda has been on active duty for 126 days, 11 hours, 51 minutes, 48 seconds.
French Canadian
Nobody dicates something on you, you decide what you bring next, adapt or die. Thats what your leader minimax would say. Die with honor
Sound like an old man crying. Seriously though, Crytic came out and said its working as intended so man up!
You're goal is to shame Pandas for losing a match against a team you weren't even on?
I can't even count the matches against you that you raged at the end or warped out mid match in frustration. Oh NOE those meanies nuked me, TWICE! How dare they!!!!!!
Word of advice, stop trying to ride the backs of other players. It's a shame they fixed those doffs and boffs from earlier this year. ...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Player A
Phaser Array: 3/22 - 13.6%
Beam Array - Fire at Will I: 9/19 - 47.4%
Player B
Antiproton Turret: 10/12 - 83.3%
Cutting Beam: 3/3 - 100%
Player C
Dual Heavy Polaron Cannons: 1/1 - 100%
Player D
Polaron Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 2/4 - 50%
Phased Polaron Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 1/1 - 100%
Player E
Antiproton Turret: 19/27 - 70.4%
Plasma Torpedo - Spread III: 14/14 - 100%
Cutting Beam: 10/13 - 76.9%
Dual Heavy Antiproton Cannons - Rapid Fire III: 10/12 - 83.3%
Dual Heavy Antiproton Cannons: 6/12 - 50%
Antiproton Turret - Rapid Fire I: 1/1 - 100%
Player F
Dual Heavy Crescent Wave Cannons: 0/4 - 0%
Cutting Beam: 3/3 - 100%
Heavy Crescent Wave Cannon: 0/2 - 0%
Player G
Tetryon Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 2/3 - 66.7%
Player H
Directed Energy Modulation III: 43/43 - 100%
Polaron Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 19/34 - 55.9%
Cutting Beam: 1/1 - 100%
Player I
Polaron Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 23/32 - 71.9%
Polaron Array: 18/18 - 100%
Polaron Beam Array - Fire at Will III: 10/13 - 76.9%
Cutting Beam: 5/7 - 71.4%
Player J
Dual Disruptor Banks: 15/15 - 100%
Dual Disruptor Banks - Target Engines I: 6/6 - 100%
Disruptor Array: 4/5 - 80%
Disruptor Beam Array - Target Auxiliary I: 2/4 - 50%
Player K
Tetryon Array: 4/4 - 100%
Romulan Plasma Array: 2/2 - 100%
Cutting Beam: 1/1 - 100%
I had to chuckle each time I typed out Fire at Will...heh.
So anyway, Willard the Rat sports the following defense bonuses:
Uncloaked...80% to 158.1%
Cloaked...130% to 208.1%
The To-Hit for somebody with the typical Accurate, 9 Targeting, [Acc]x3 weapons would be:
Uncloaked...80% to 49.2%
Cloaked...57% to 39.5%
With that "mega Acc" stuff from another thread:
Uncloaked...98% to 55.5%
Cloaked...65.8% to 43.5%
Yeah, generally speaking there aren't enough hits/swings to make anything out of it overall...pesky Willard the Gnat, blipping about in Ker'rat. Still, there are oddities here and there, imho.
The number of hits continues to leave me wondering if the To-Hit mechanics have not changed and that the spreadsheet some of us use from the old podcast is simply invalid. Have asked a few times (both during senile and non-senile moments...ahem)...haven't seen a dev reply outside of pointing out the senile posts.
The most curious thing, imho mind you, were the DEM hits. 43 DEM hits...from 20 hits. How did he have 43 hits off of 20 hits? Even if you just look at swings, how did he heave 43 DEM hits from 35 swings?
Course, the Cutting Beam was also curious, eh? Sure, there weren't many shots - but there was a guy that took 9 swings with three weapons, missed with 6, hit with 3, and the 3 hits were the Cutting Beam. The Cutting Beam's info has it as a [Dmg]x3 weapon...not as some sort of [Acc]x3-4-5 or so weapon.
But yeah, anyway - folks tend to parse for damage - maybe they should parse for hits/swings, look for any oddities and the like, eh?
From a TD match - The lowest percentage encounter from the player
http://postimg.org/image/ry87jz9ar/
A controlled test. A cruiser set to full engines with my cruiser in pursuit. Unrepped Eng /w MK X/XI KHG. Other was a fed cruiser with no rep but MK XII MACO set. All ACCx3 beams
http://postimg.org/image/fugsl57ln/
Another controlled test with Eng Bortas and old [ACC][BORG] disruptor arrays and 2 plasma-disruptor hybrids against a evasive Recluse.
http://postimg.org/image/d52qqpgb7/
Some other things I have noticed in testing, if you VM/TB a target or a target simply doesn't move, you can hit with 100% accuracy even with non-acc beams. Could use some more testing to verify. IE, try with a ship sitting still while the other ship is evasive. ect ect
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Hmm.....idle speculation, but I wonder if DEM damage is doing something like auto-hitting despite missing with the weapon in question. Or possibly multi-hitting off one hit, or getting triggered by some other ability unrelated to weapons, e.g. each application of APB resulting in a proc.
Man, these things are an awful headache to test.....
If there are only 2 targets instead of 5, those 2 targets will get the brunt of the DEM and they will melt like a hot knife through butter, Panda or not Panda
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
after the beam overload changes....how did everyone think that players who want to kill bad guys would respond?
right, find another way to kill bad guys.
turns out, faw and dem on a few players in a team is more powerful than a double tap. and even more frustrating to players receiving it.
its like the difference between getting popped in 3 seconds and you can do nothing about it, or know where it came from... vs getting melted in 7 seconds and you know exactly where it came from.
how will cryptic respond?
1: buff healing?
2: nerf dem?
3: nerf faw?
4: do nothing?
i gotta tell you...im melting stfs right now. actually the only reason im finishing my rep grinds. its that easy. and i hate stfs man. im pugging on elite and finishing most in under 10 minutes. everyone is faw dem'ing it. with a2b cruisers.
what did they think would happen? cryptic basically, by taking away the ability to spike kill for most, drove all tacs into suppression builds. and then handed us a shiny new cruiser that is perfect for the role.
simply astonishing really that people didnt know this was gonna happen. i saw it coming weeks ago.
have fun kill bad guys
-thrusters on full-
-acceptance-
And now the same people asking for BO nerf are now asking to Nerf FAW, jeeze, it's PVP someone's got to die.
Look at Minimax's Tricobalt build, Nerfed, BO Nerfed,
Next time come will be weapons, your not allowed to kill anyone....
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
edit: The following is vs. a single target. Although it says 8 swings, it is only 4 shots (each shot being counted as two swings in the table with one shield and one hull).
Single Weapon/Single Cycle
Test #1
Tetryon Array: 8 Swings - 8 Hits
Test#2
Tetryon Array: 8 Swings - 8 Hits
Directed Energy Modulation II: 4 Swings - 4 Hits
Test#3
Tetryon Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 10 Swings - 10 Hits
Test#4
Tetryon Beam Array - Fire at Will II: 10 Swings - 10 Hits
Directed Energy Modulation II: 10 Swings - 10 Hits
Test#1 is fine...it lists 8 because of the Shield and Hull hits.
Test#2 is fine...4 additional hull hits because of DEM.
Test#3 is fine...FAW adds a swing/hit, and there are Shield/Hull hits.
Test#4 is WTF?
Test#4 should have been 10x Array (as listed) and 5x DEM (5 shots fired instead of 4).
Which matches up testing in the wild pretty closely. DEM's hitting around twice with FAW.
Call me crazy but I don't think that FAW is that overpowered in premade vs. premade clashes. At least I have yet to see proof of FAW being unbeatable OP. The match that nebulgam posted was basically a match between a FAW team against a very classic, conservative spike escorts/healer/sci composition.
Counter, counter-play, counter-counter-play. Thats it.
Although I have a very mean dedicated Tac FAW Cruiser myself, it's certainly not one of my preferred play choices. There is a disconnect between player skill required and net effectivness of these kinda builds. It's just to easy to achieve good results with FAW cruisers. I don't really like it because that playstyle eventually might hinder people to develop real skill. Which may set the stage for mayor whining in the future when the meta changes again.
IIRC DEM is supposed to apply additional damage ("swing") each time you hit with an energy weapon. To me, it looks like test #2 indicates something wrong; DEM is supposed to have applied itself all 8 times.
Are you checking what happens with FAW + DEM against multiple targets?
ya this is what DEM is supposed to do. its an extra flat amount of damage added per swing. thats why its best used with single cannons, and less so with beam actually.
Imo, it's still cooldown reduction of aux2batt et al that's the main issue, w/the epte high uptime being the other.
In the past FaWball would generally be done by slower ships. In general they couldn't dictate when an encounter would begin nor end vs most ships. But, they would melt the faster ships that lingered too long. EPtE and ship power creep has changed that model.
Listing the problems w/the cooldown reduction is beating a dead horse at this point.
It feels similar to when Fleet Torkaht came out and the crtH rep bonus was out w/Aux2batt, but no fleet shields yet in terms of shift in game play.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Also thanks Naz
On topic though. DEM is supposed to do a certain amount of direct to hull damage based on weapon power so VD your test 2 was wrong not test 4. DEM is buffed by attack pattern buffs and damage resistance debuffs and anything lowering energy weapon drain makes a huge difference to the amount of damage done with DEM.
It won't matter if your shields are healthy it just bypasses it completely and if 4-5 cruisers are getting the increased rate of fire from FAW onto 1-2 targets then you're getting stacking damage resistance debuffs applied quicker than TT can clear it sometimes. Course you need a co-ordinated team with very specific builds to get a good effect from it that but you guys already know that
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
That goes back to Aux2batt w/the high uptime of high DEM, instead of needing 2 DEMs at least 1 of lower value and frees up a Boff slot for something else like high uptime EPtE/W.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I'm going to assume he was saying finishing a round of stfs in under 10min.
Yeah and if they decide to let cruisers have teeth from higher level engineering abilities I'd be all for saying nerf that s**t but right now it's about the only thing stopping most cruisers from going to the great shipyard in the sky and chillin on a cloud with the Galaxy.
I hope so Antonio.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Hello, sorry I'm a bit late to the party here, but I figured some people might want to hear from someone who was involved in the fight that sparked this little tantrum of yours.
You didn't go down because someone was FAWing you to death, you went down because I was hammering you with DHCs at the same time. Your fleetmate who came to help you died a messy death both times after you ran off and left him to die, and after I finally kicked the bucket the FAW boat took you out.
Its PvP. Someone has to die.
Renim, it's 4 shots reflecting 8 hits. 4 shield hits and 4 hull hits from bleed. A beam only fires 4 shots per cycle. Each test was a single weapon firing a single cycle.
DEM adds hull damage to each shot.
4 shots, 8 hits (1 shield/1 hull), and 4 DEM. That's where Test#2 displayed as it should.
FAW would make it 5 shots, 10 hits (1 shield/1 hull)...with 5 shots, there should be 5 DEM hits...not 10.
Again, 4 shots fired. There should be 4 DEM hits. There were 4 DEM hits.
5 shots fired. There should be 5 DEM hits. 10 DEM hits?
I'm thinking Test#2 was right and Test#4 showed an issue with FAW and DEM.
every one of the 5 shots FAW fires, if there is at least 2 targets, seems to actually fire 2 shots at those 2 different targets at the same time. you still should have seen 10 hits and 10 dem entries though.
There was only one target. That should have been clear from the FAW no DEM Test#3 even without my stating it was just a quick controlled test.
I'm reinstalling ACT to check with a different plugin.
edit: I'll edit that post to make it clear that it's a single target and also point out how it's listing hits (doubling them because of the shield and hull).
TYPE DAMAGE ENCDPS AVERAGE MEDIAN MINHIT MAXHIT RESIST HITS SWINGS TOHIT CRIT%
All 4,074 1,358.00 339.50 121 50 1,364 All 12 12 100.00 17%
Tetryon Array 3,497 1,165.67 437.13 571 50 1,364 Shield 8 8 100.00 13%
Directed Energy Modulation II 577 192.33 144.25 117 100 252 Tetryon 4 4 100.00 25%
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
1:36:57 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Tetryon Notus 121 True None
1:36:57 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Shield Notus 1364 False None
1:36:56 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Tetryon Notus 54 False None
1:36:56 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Shield Notus 606 False None
1:36:55 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Tetryon Notus 50 False None
1:36:55 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Shield Notus 571 False None
1:36:54 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Tetryon Notus 60 False None
1:36:54 PM Prophet Tetryon Array Shield Notus 671 False None
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
1:36:57 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 252 True None
1:36:56 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 100 False None
1:36:55 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 117 False None
1:36:54 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 108 False None
TEST#4
TYPE DAMAGE ENCDPS AVERAGE MEDIAN MINHIT MAXHIT RESIST HITS SWINGS TOHIT CRIT%
All 5,420 1,594.12 258.10 98 27 1,043 All 21 21 100.00 19%
Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II 3,782 1,112.35 378.20 473 27 1,043 Shield 10 10 100.00 20%
Directed Energy Modulation II 887 260.88 88.70 98 45 125 Tetryon 10 10 100.00 20%
Omega Graviton Amplifier 751 220.88 751.00 751 751 751 Kinetic 1 1 100.00 0%
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
1:38:40 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Tetryon Notus 60 True Fire at Will II
1:38:40 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Shield Notus 1043 False Fire at Will II
1:38:39 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Tetryon Notus 29 False Fire at Will II
1:38:39 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Shield Notus 514 False Fire at Will II
1:38:38 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Tetryon Notus 27 False Fire at Will II
1:38:38 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Shield Notus 473 False Fire at Will II
1:38:37 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Tetryon Notus 31 False Fire at Will II
1:38:37 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Shield Notus 532 False Fire at Will II
1:38:36 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Tetryon Notus 59 True Fire at Will II
1:38:36 PM Prophet Tetryon Beam Array: Fire at Will II Shield Notus 1014 False Fire at Will II
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL
1:38:40 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 118 False None
1:38:40 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 98 True None
1:38:39 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 95 False None
1:38:39 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 47 False None
1:38:38 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 125 False None
1:38:38 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 46 False None
1:38:37 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 91 False None
1:38:37 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 45 False None
1:38:36 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 111 False None
1:38:36 PM Prophet Directed Energy Modulation II Tetryon Notus 111 True None
Test#2...4 shots, 8 hits (4 shield/4 hull) and 4 DEM.
Test#4...5 shots, 10 hits (5 shied/5 hull) and 10 DEM. <---should be 5.
You can see that it's not a case of the log just copying the same DEM twice, the damage varies per hit. There are 2x DEM per shot that hits when using FAW.