Nope, I can't remember that, nor do I remember cruisers ever ruling the roost. I remember whines about cruisers being unkillable leading to a nerf to shield based abilities. However they've never really been a threat.
...snip...
Not sure when you joined, but you shouldn't claim things along the lines of Cruisers were always TRIBBLE and designed that way when they weren't. In fact they did rule roost for over a yeaer.
Also, lolz @ shield based abilities getting nerfed. It's been a giant net buff since f2p, anything "nerfed" was quickly followed by a grind/buy option that more than made up for the "nerf".
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Not sure when you joined, but you shouldn't claim things along the lines of Cruisers were always TRIBBLE and designed that way when they weren't. In fact they did rule roost for over a yeaer.
I was PvPing about a month after the game came out. They were fine for a while, especially if you filled them up with EPS consoles. However a buff to escorts defenses (due to a whine they were glass cannons) and changes to weapon drain pretty much led to escorts ruling the game. Now an escort could slap on drain heavy weapons and their damage would hardly a flicker. A cruiser trying the same with beams would find his damage dropping radically.
Also, lolz @ shield based abilities getting nerfed. It's been a giant net buff since f2p, anything "nerfed" was quickly followed by a grind/buy option that more than made up for the "nerf".
It was mostly to do with the shield resists, especially in terms of RSF.
Lol. It is so funny how memory falters overtime. I do remember the days of cruiser online and even Science online before we got Escorts online very well.
The days of the fedball that could not be easily cracked unless one worked with a team to seperate a foe from the pack in the hopes of getting a kill that might start a cycle of breaking that fedball up.t
Pvp in STO has had many phases of ships being OP then being nerfed iether directly or indirectly due to outcry.
Cruisers, Sciships, escorts... Hell, even carriers where becryed once as OP just because some could not get past thier pets to kill them. KDF BOPs have continually been brought up as OP since the faction first existed ... All because those whom where not as good a player died to them too easily in thier own opinions.
This is part of the BS that has helped make STO pvp unfun. Through in all the money grabbing p2w and inner fleet drama... And it has all culminated in the crappy, undeveloped setting that exists now.
Watched it since the begining and have slowly watched my apathy grow because of it.
Its time for a change from the ego driven nerfs and convient memory loss that says the old days where better... They where not better...there was just less TRIBBLE to ***** about, but there was still plenty of TRIBBLE to keep the ******** alive that has helped get pvp get where it is today.
What would help is a unified focus to make pvp fun instead of all the inner rivalry between fleets, pve'rs, casual players, hardcore pvpers and those players whom just seem set to ruin pvp for kicks.
Its no wonder anymore why so many MMO players look at pvp likes its evil incarnate.
Thats what makes me the grouchiest, STO pvp has become about ego and not about fun.
Nope, I can't remember that, nor do I remember cruisers ever ruling the roost (and if so it certainly wasn't for a long time). I remember whines about cruisers being unkillable leading to a nerf to shield based abilities. However they've never really been a threat.
I remember it. The problem was FAW neglected defense when firing, so 5 cruisers could spam FAW, hit everything without missing, and keep each other covered with heals and extends...it was TRIBBLE...
All that will happen is new thing will be discovered that is "OP AS HELLZ!1" and make people switch to that. Besides it's nice to see a cruiser competing with escorts in PvE and PvP and not have the same old 5 escort, drone around, snooze, cannons, win. Now if only science abilities had more teeth in PvE we might be onto a winner.
Also it's weird how everyone loves A2B and everyone forgot about poor ole photonic officer who is now worse in all ways.
The days of the fedball that could not be easily cracked unless one worked with a team to seperate a foe from the pack in the hopes of getting a kill that might start a cycle of breaking that fedball up.
How the hell don't you remember the game being called "cruisers online." ****, I don't even pvp and I heard that saying being tossed around more than I care to remember
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Of course there are other "viable" builds, you can be a zombie cruiser or a healer. So what if I don't want to be a healer in my cruiser? What are my choices then? Take an escort or GTFO? Unless there is a bigger rework plan for boff abilities, nerfing Aux2Bat will just be a straight nerf to cruisers.
So what if I don't want to be a healer in my cruiser? What are my choices then? Take an escort or GTFO? Unless there is a bigger rework plan for boff abilities, nerfing Aux2Bat will just be a straight nerf to cruisers.
So what if I don't want to deal damage in my escort.What are my choices then? Take a cruiser or GTFO?
So what if I don't want to deal damage in my escort.What are my choices then? Take a cruiser or GTFO?
logic allergy strikes again /facepalm
Well, I can think of some nifty debuff/control+healer builds, for one, using the escort def/speed to mitigate own damage taken...
TT1, BTS:E2, BTS:S3, AP:O3
TS1, DPB2, AP;D2
EPtS1, Aux2SIF
HE1, TSS2
ST1 or ET1, depending on ensign type.
With at least one Chroniton torp and mine launcher and at least one beam array. Maybe polaron energy weapons for energy drain debuffs.
Of course, with a non-tac or universal Lt Cmdr you're options for such a build are even better.
*shrug*
Of course that'd somewhat silly and should never be used in actual combat situations, but still, there always options if you dare think outside the box...
Of course that'd somewhat silly and should never be used in actual combat situations, but still, there always options if you dare think outside the box...
So what if I don't want to deal damage in my escort.What are my choices then? Take a cruiser or GTFO?
logic allergy strikes again /facepalm
I think our discussion is a little out of context. Let's look at the design principles behind each ship type. Sci ships obviously excel at CC and sci HoTs/debuff clearing abilities. That's fine. Escorts are supposed to be the spike damage masters. And they are. So what's the niche of the poor old cruiser? Judging by the game's design they were supposed to be "Jacks of all Trades, Masters of None". Let's see, decent but not best CC capability, check. Decent, but not best healing capability, check. What's left? the damage dealer's domain. Oh we have a problem, because most cruisers don't have enough tac slots for this job. Let's see what we can do... Oh wait there's A2B... If you take it away cruisers can't do a part of what they were supposed to do and that is being able to perform all tasks but at the same time not being best at any.
I think our discussion is a little out of context. Let's look at the design principles behind each ship type. Sci ships obviously excel at CC and sci HoTs/debuff clearing abilities. That's fine. Escorts are supposed to be the spike damage masters. And they are. So what's the niche of the poor old cruiser? Judging by the game's design they were supposed to be "Jacks of all Trades, Masters of None". Let's see, decent but not best CC capability, check. Decent, but not best healing capability, check. What's left? the damage dealer's domain. Oh we have a problem, because most cruisers don't have enough tac slots for this job. Let's see what we can do... Oh wait there's A2B... If you take it away cruisers can't do a part of what they were supposed to do and that is being able to perform all tasks but at the same time not being best at any.
so just because theres no need right now for tanky ships you want cruisers to be escorts but more tanky than escorts?
its either you ask for a pvp update to give you something to do with tanky ships or you use them to cruise around and explore strange new worlds and seek out new lifes and civilizations ...that's canon.
Where did i say "I want cruisers to be HYPER DPS IMBA PRO UNKILLABLE MACHINES OF DOOM"? All i said is that cruisers were supposed to be Jack of All Trades, but what you're proposing here is to take away part of that. Thus, nerfing A2B means nerfing cruisers.
Where did i say "I want cruisers to be HYPER DPS IMBA PRO UNKILLABLE MACHINES OF DOOM"? All i said is that cruisers were supposed to be Jack of All Trades, but what you're proposing here is to take away part of that. Thus, nerfing A2B means nerfing cruisers.
no ,having no game content that requires tanking is a nerf for cruiser.A2B is patch that allows cruisers to have all powers on global cd.
You know those attack pattern doffs for escorts.With 3 you can have a attack pattern on global cd.I want to see those doffs working for all powers on a escort ,not only attack patterns.Im sure you will agree ,if not bye bye a2b.
no ,having no game content that requires tanking is a nerf for cruiser.
More specifically, allowing what tanking is applicable in STO to be done just as effectively by escorts through the silly speed tanking mechanic (and to a lesser extent by sci ships b/c of shield tanking), without offering any incentive to aim at cruiser tanking.
I'm sure if systems really wanted to, they could make A2B cruisers, synergize with Engie cpt skills. Sadly they don't. Hence Tac cruisers, enjoy A2B while everyone else should go into a carrier or a sci ship for healing and cc.
I mean if we would talk about iconic ships of star trek, like the defiant or the mighty recluse carrier, this might be a problem. Thank god, they only do this to weird fed design, with not recollection value outside of hardcore IP nerds. I mean who honestly associates a constitution, or galaxy class with Star Trek?
You know those attack pattern doffs for escorts.With 3 you can have a attack pattern on global cd.I want to see those doffs working for all powers on a escort ,not only attack patterns.Im sure you will agree ,if not bye bye a2b.
AP doffs? sure we can talk about them too, let's see what's the cost of getting apo and apd on globals... 3x doffs, interesting, now let's look at technicians, shall we? So, you need 3x doffs too, but wait 3x doffs won't do a thing on their own, you need to use 2 copies of a moderately useful ability which eats most of our aux 50%+ of the time. Is the relation of cost to effectiveness balanced? Not really. You will probably argue that "oh, come on, that aux eating property of aux2bat isn't that much of a drawback" well, it kills the effectiveness of your aux based reputation traits/boff abilities. You can counter that but by no means is A2B with technicians an I-Win-Button. You can easily counter it with CC abilities and nukes. But I guess asking for a nerf is a lot easier than trying to find a counter to A2B builds.
AP doffs? sure we can talk about them too, let's see what's the cost of getting apo and apd on globals... 3x doffs, interesting, now let's look at technicians, shall we? So, you need 3x doffs too, but wait 3x doffs won't do a thing on their own, you need to use 2 copies of a moderately useful ability which eats most of our aux 50%+ of the time. Is the relation of cost to effectiveness balanced? Not really. You will probably argue that "oh, come on, that aux eating property of aux2bat isn't that much of a drawback" well, it kills the effectiveness of your aux based reputation traits/boff abilities. You can counter that but by no means is A2B with technicians an I-Win-Button. You can easily counter it with CC abilities and nukes. But I guess asking for a nerf is a lot easier than trying to find a counter to A2B builds.
attack pattern doffs work on their own but a2b tech doffs don't.Not like you need an attack pattern to make the doff work /facepalm
you want similiar effect ,a2b should put on cd all aux2X powers not tt ,dem or things that don't have aux in their name.
Btw one of the reasons pvp should never get an update ,not even to nerf a2b, is because most pvp players refuse to even think before post something.For a new player looks like devs don't want to update pvp but in reality the pvp community is brain dead.
Btw one of the reasons pvp should never get an update ,not even to nerf a2b, is because most pvp players refuse to even think before post something.For a new player looks like devs don't want to update pvp but in reality the pvp community is brain dead.
That's quite the paradox, how could you nerf nerf when the nerf is nerfed. But how would the nerf be nerfed when the nerf is nerfed? This allows the nerf not to be nerfed since the nerf is nerfed? But if the nerf isn't nerfed, it could still nerf nerfs. But as soon as the nerf is nerfed, the nerf power is lost. So paradoxally it the nerf nerf lost its nerf, while it's still nerfed, which cannot be because the nerf was unable to nerf.
Wait who said cruisers are supposed to be jacks of all trades ?
Cruisers are healers in PvP... if you don't understand that, you don't get STO.
Yes thanks to all the passive healing these days most premades don't run cruisers at all... yes its a balance fail on Cryptic part.
The Aux to Bat stuff sure you see it in the ques a bit... because people that would love to RP it up in there cruisers have Aux to Bat as a viable way to do some dmg... mainly because it gives them up to 4 more Tactical slots.... and doubles there healing potential with things like double RSP. You don't see them in premades cause its still a bad idea. But ya they rap^ things pretty well in PvE... and in pugs.
In any event... reduce healing and make pressure dmg a possibility again... and yes Healing Cruisers providing real pressure dmg... could once again make sense in pvp... over running healing sci ships and carriers.
I gave it up because it was like a drug. You get used to playing at that speed...and man, it was so painful trying to play my toons without it. Like playing in molasses...
And I did give it up until I got the JHEC not long after that...I tried playing the JHEC w/o AtB, and to me - it just didn't work. Thing is, it's not an Escort - it doesn't get the +10% Bonus Defense. It's basically a Flight-Deck Light Cruiser...switch that Cmdr Tac and LCdr Eng, you've got a Cruiser BOFF layout. It's got the +6 turn and the matching -6k or so hull to go with that. For me, what I could do in an actual Cruiser without AtB was better than what I could in the JHEC without it...felt I had no choice but to go AtB with the JHEC (where I've never felt that way with Cruisers).
Question was there any Lag in zone when you were testing?
that might account for the timing being off when triggering the 2nd a2b?
were you firing at anyone where plasmotic leach would have triggered?
or being fired at and the MACO Proc triggered? or was this in an empty instance?
Not sure that everything we have in-game currently was tested for how it would interact with everything else without causing some of the weird things that happen. I'm all for a general bug fix patch or season as long as it doesn't break anything else unintentionally as seems to happen far too often.
I know I was all over the map rubber banding last nite including Otha ground map where it was just me and the borg - fire weapon freeze for 5-20secs later it either fired, I disconnected or was bounced halfway across the map to the start area, today no issues with lag at all which is the norm.
For the numbers that I did there, those were just sitting in an instance with a few blue NPCs off to the side. For claims of previous boosting? That could be tied into latency/display issues.
Think it was more along the lines of just so much going on and the calculation having trouble keeping up. People have seen the delay in Subsystem Power calculations that take place when logging in, zoning, respawning, slotting/reslotting gear.
So there you are in combat and it's keeping track of:
...and I haven't had enough caffeine yet, so I know there's more - but I just can't remember.
It's dealing with all those possible changes, where many of them can happen during the recalculation of previous changes. I think it's just a case of it getting overwhelmed at points, and well - throw lag into that? Yeah...definitely would be a factor.
With the tests I did for that post, again - that was just sitting off to the side in an instance. Even with that, numbers would drop lower for a sec and then pop back up or go higher for a sec and drop back down...there would often be about a 1s delay with the calcs. That was just sitting there triggering thing in a non-combat situation without all of that other stuff taking place. A lot could potentially happening during that 1s while in combat...
Comments
Not sure when you joined, but you shouldn't claim things along the lines of Cruisers were always TRIBBLE and designed that way when they weren't. In fact they did rule roost for over a yeaer.
Also, lolz @ shield based abilities getting nerfed. It's been a giant net buff since f2p, anything "nerfed" was quickly followed by a grind/buy option that more than made up for the "nerf".
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I was PvPing about a month after the game came out. They were fine for a while, especially if you filled them up with EPS consoles. However a buff to escorts defenses (due to a whine they were glass cannons) and changes to weapon drain pretty much led to escorts ruling the game. Now an escort could slap on drain heavy weapons and their damage would hardly a flicker. A cruiser trying the same with beams would find his damage dropping radically.
It was mostly to do with the shield resists, especially in terms of RSF.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
The days of the fedball that could not be easily cracked unless one worked with a team to seperate a foe from the pack in the hopes of getting a kill that might start a cycle of breaking that fedball up.t
Pvp in STO has had many phases of ships being OP then being nerfed iether directly or indirectly due to outcry.
Cruisers, Sciships, escorts... Hell, even carriers where becryed once as OP just because some could not get past thier pets to kill them. KDF BOPs have continually been brought up as OP since the faction first existed ... All because those whom where not as good a player died to them too easily in thier own opinions.
This is part of the BS that has helped make STO pvp unfun. Through in all the money grabbing p2w and inner fleet drama... And it has all culminated in the crappy, undeveloped setting that exists now.
Watched it since the begining and have slowly watched my apathy grow because of it.
Its time for a change from the ego driven nerfs and convient memory loss that says the old days where better... They where not better...there was just less TRIBBLE to ***** about, but there was still plenty of TRIBBLE to keep the ******** alive that has helped get pvp get where it is today.
What would help is a unified focus to make pvp fun instead of all the inner rivalry between fleets, pve'rs, casual players, hardcore pvpers and those players whom just seem set to ruin pvp for kicks.
Its no wonder anymore why so many MMO players look at pvp likes its evil incarnate.
Thats what makes me the grouchiest, STO pvp has become about ego and not about fun.
R.I.P
I remember it. The problem was FAW neglected defense when firing, so 5 cruisers could spam FAW, hit everything without missing, and keep each other covered with heals and extends...it was TRIBBLE...
Also it's weird how everyone loves A2B and everyone forgot about poor ole photonic officer who is now worse in all ways.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Kind of like now?
History repeats itself.
R.I.P
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
I know, right?
I feel like we had this long conversation about this already, Bpharma. :P
lol are you following me!?
But yes, I wonder if Photonic Officer will make a comeback if A2B gets nerfed...
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
It is not required to achieve what people want it for and it takes far more build knowledge to do it the other ways.
It does seem a bit abusive however as getting all things to global is obviously a bit much and a touch inane.
So with that said I would be in favor of nerfing it by making only one DOFF of that type slottable.
So what if I don't want to deal damage in my escort.What are my choices then? Take a cruiser or GTFO?
logic allergy strikes again /facepalm
Well, I can think of some nifty debuff/control+healer builds, for one, using the escort def/speed to mitigate own damage taken...
TT1, BTS:E2, BTS:S3, AP:O3
TS1, DPB2, AP;D2
EPtS1, Aux2SIF
HE1, TSS2
ST1 or ET1, depending on ensign type.
With at least one Chroniton torp and mine launcher and at least one beam array. Maybe polaron energy weapons for energy drain debuffs.
Of course, with a non-tac or universal Lt Cmdr you're options for such a build are even better.
*shrug*
Of course that'd somewhat silly and should never be used in actual combat situations, but still, there always options if you dare think outside the box...
Im sure your defiant is a great healer.
oh wait...
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I think our discussion is a little out of context. Let's look at the design principles behind each ship type. Sci ships obviously excel at CC and sci HoTs/debuff clearing abilities. That's fine. Escorts are supposed to be the spike damage masters. And they are. So what's the niche of the poor old cruiser? Judging by the game's design they were supposed to be "Jacks of all Trades, Masters of None". Let's see, decent but not best CC capability, check. Decent, but not best healing capability, check. What's left? the damage dealer's domain. Oh we have a problem, because most cruisers don't have enough tac slots for this job. Let's see what we can do... Oh wait there's A2B... If you take it away cruisers can't do a part of what they were supposed to do and that is being able to perform all tasks but at the same time not being best at any.
so just because theres no need right now for tanky ships you want cruisers to be escorts but more tanky than escorts?
its either you ask for a pvp update to give you something to do with tanky ships or you use them to cruise around and explore strange new worlds and seek out new lifes and civilizations ...that's canon.
Let's just say my cruisers are more effective at dps than that just-for-giggles-build would likely be at healing, even without running A2B.
lol
when everything else fails theres always ramming speed...and that's better on a ship with more hp.
no ,having no game content that requires tanking is a nerf for cruiser.A2B is patch that allows cruisers to have all powers on global cd.
You know those attack pattern doffs for escorts.With 3 you can have a attack pattern on global cd.I want to see those doffs working for all powers on a escort ,not only attack patterns.Im sure you will agree ,if not bye bye a2b.
More specifically, allowing what tanking is applicable in STO to be done just as effectively by escorts through the silly speed tanking mechanic (and to a lesser extent by sci ships b/c of shield tanking), without offering any incentive to aim at cruiser tanking.
I mean if we would talk about iconic ships of star trek, like the defiant or the mighty recluse carrier, this might be a problem. Thank god, they only do this to weird fed design, with not recollection value outside of hardcore IP nerds. I mean who honestly associates a constitution, or galaxy class with Star Trek?
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
AP doffs? sure we can talk about them too, let's see what's the cost of getting apo and apd on globals... 3x doffs, interesting, now let's look at technicians, shall we? So, you need 3x doffs too, but wait 3x doffs won't do a thing on their own, you need to use 2 copies of a moderately useful ability which eats most of our aux 50%+ of the time. Is the relation of cost to effectiveness balanced? Not really. You will probably argue that "oh, come on, that aux eating property of aux2bat isn't that much of a drawback" well, it kills the effectiveness of your aux based reputation traits/boff abilities. You can counter that but by no means is A2B with technicians an I-Win-Button. You can easily counter it with CC abilities and nukes. But I guess asking for a nerf is a lot easier than trying to find a counter to A2B builds.
attack pattern doffs work on their own but a2b tech doffs don't.Not like you need an attack pattern to make the doff work /facepalm
you want similiar effect ,a2b should put on cd all aux2X powers not tt ,dem or things that don't have aux in their name.
Btw one of the reasons pvp should never get an update ,not even to nerf a2b, is because most pvp players refuse to even think before post something.For a new player looks like devs don't want to update pvp but in reality the pvp community is brain dead.
^^ This makes me *sigh*.
I call it, the Stoutes paradox.
Cruisers are healers in PvP... if you don't understand that, you don't get STO.
Yes thanks to all the passive healing these days most premades don't run cruisers at all... yes its a balance fail on Cryptic part.
The Aux to Bat stuff sure you see it in the ques a bit... because people that would love to RP it up in there cruisers have Aux to Bat as a viable way to do some dmg... mainly because it gives them up to 4 more Tactical slots.... and doubles there healing potential with things like double RSP. You don't see them in premades cause its still a bad idea. But ya they rap^ things pretty well in PvE... and in pugs.
In any event... reduce healing and make pressure dmg a possibility again... and yes Healing Cruisers providing real pressure dmg... could once again make sense in pvp... over running healing sci ships and carriers.
Had been running it off and on before that thread, heh - post #14 in that thread I said:
And I did give it up until I got the JHEC not long after that...I tried playing the JHEC w/o AtB, and to me - it just didn't work. Thing is, it's not an Escort - it doesn't get the +10% Bonus Defense. It's basically a Flight-Deck Light Cruiser...switch that Cmdr Tac and LCdr Eng, you've got a Cruiser BOFF layout. It's got the +6 turn and the matching -6k or so hull to go with that. For me, what I could do in an actual Cruiser without AtB was better than what I could in the JHEC without it...felt I had no choice but to go AtB with the JHEC (where I've never felt that way with Cruisers).
For the numbers that I did there, those were just sitting in an instance with a few blue NPCs off to the side. For claims of previous boosting? That could be tied into latency/display issues.
Think it was more along the lines of just so much going on and the calculation having trouble keeping up. People have seen the delay in Subsystem Power calculations that take place when logging in, zoning, respawning, slotting/reslotting gear.
So there you are in combat and it's keeping track of:
AtB boosts
AtB drains
AtB boost expiration
Manifold boosts
Manifold boost expiration
Leech boosts
Leech boost expiration
WCE boosts
WCE boost expiration
The new Warp Core stuff
Leech (other player) drains
Leech (other player) drain expiration
Polaron drains
Polaron drain expiration
Beam Target Subsystem drains
Beam Target Subsystem drain expiration
Energy Siphon drains
Energy siphon drain expiration
AA drains
AA drain expiration
TR drains
TR drain expiration
...and I haven't had enough caffeine yet, so I know there's more - but I just can't remember.
It's dealing with all those possible changes, where many of them can happen during the recalculation of previous changes. I think it's just a case of it getting overwhelmed at points, and well - throw lag into that? Yeah...definitely would be a factor.
With the tests I did for that post, again - that was just sitting off to the side in an instance. Even with that, numbers would drop lower for a sec and then pop back up or go higher for a sec and drop back down...there would often be about a 1s delay with the calcs. That was just sitting there triggering thing in a non-combat situation without all of that other stuff taking place. A lot could potentially happening during that 1s while in combat...