oh i knew this thread would pop up in the wake of all the drama lately :rolleyes: yes, lets nerf AtB, so tac cruisers can lose approximately 50% of their current effectiveness. on a team, they still arent worth trading an escorts for, due to the way they deal damage. in the wake of hyper spike getting nerfed, we should nerf hyper pressure too? when its not even as good as regular spike?
90% of the people i see wanting AtB nerfed have no experience and very little understanding of it. their are drawbacks to using it. a healer build, the primary use of a cruiser cant use it, it needs max aux at all times and AtS. AtB cruisers can be pretty resilient, can use RSP a lot, but arent even close to being as resilient as a heal boat. on tac cruisers AtB allows you to use the ship wrong without majorly penalizing you for it. if you take AtB away from them now, every cruiser will have little choice but to trade their lost offense for defense, you really want more zombie cruisers around?
beyond cruisers theres some gray areas. destroyers and warbirds tend to be able to use it too. the destroyers lack escort turn rates and agility, are a jack of all trades but subpar at directly fighting escorts. they can be outflown and out gunned easily by classic escorts, no AtB destoyer is close to a match for a bug. AtB helps these ships not suck in practice as much as they would otherwise. at the usual price of low aux, and on destroyers and warbirds with cloaks and high end sci skills, being without aux is an achilles heel.
how about warbirds? strong ships, primarily tac with battlecloak. quite a few think its not worth the risk draining your aux all the time when so much of the ships strength comes from attacking from cloak, and then quickly cloaking again. activating something every 10 seconds that has more then a good chance of dropping your aux to 0 for a 10 second period is not for the faint of heart. for tactical ships, they lack enough station slots to double up basic tac skills, so a warbird user has to choose between tac skill up time and healthy all the time aux levels for reliable cloaking.
though i was worried that warbirds with AtB would be overpowered, it ended up being higher risk for higher reward, it balanced itself that way. in the other cases the ships that can use AtB would SUCK tactically without it. dont blame AtB for that, or say that theres no reason to run anything but AtB on them, blame the ships themselves for sucking. AtB has brought up cruiser tactical potential in a way no other change could have. it has made a great deal of ships that would be underpowered just good enough to be worth using. without it the game would look far more cookie cutter. the pve'ers love it, because they can use thier favorite cruiser and it can be as tough as they want it to be.
and yes, several execute whole row macros is much more overpowered then any skill combination in game.
It isn't, I promise you. I've run at least a half dozen A2B builds.
If you have two copies of A2B, and you should, you simply bind them and fire them off constantly.
One of them will fire off every 10s.
So it really does not matter when you do or do not time your other buffs.
The only thing you need to watch is when to pop an aux batt between those cycles
noob! if you dont hold off on activating AtB when you have skills less then 5 seconds away from being available again, your doing it wrong :P your timings will just be more off next time.
you wont see global on tac skills without a decent amount of mindfulness. long cooldown skills like RSP, HE, APO and DEM sure, but not weapon skills. you want to mash your EPt/AtB/distribute bind AFTER you mash your tac buff bind. they drift apart over time and you need to activly keep them in line.
noob! if you dont hold off on activating AtB when you have skills less then 5 seconds away from being available again, your doing it wrong :P your timings will just be more off next time.
you wont see global on tac skills without a decent amount of mindfulness. long cooldown skills like RSP, HE, APO and DEM sure, but not weapon skills. you want to mash your EPt/AtB/distribute bind AFTER you mash your tac buff bind. they drift apart over time and you need to activly keep them in line.
The reality is that in team PvP you don't actually need CRF up every 15s, every single time.
Most of it is just scoreboard inflation.
You only need those short CD buffs...when you need them.
:P
To be clear, that means when your other buffs align so you can stack them all together for an actual strike and not just wizzing into the wind.
So, it's not as fussy as watching all the little timers.
Some people seem to confuse 'overpowered' with 'it's the only viable option'.
Let's be honest - why do people use Aux2Bat builds?
They use it to effectively double the pitiful amount of cruiser tac stations.
Sure, less cooldown on hazard emitters and other abilities is a plus, but in essence, it's more or less the only way to make an offensive cruiser.
And that's the problem right there! There aren't enough alternatives and the game is badly balanced.
Why is it so important to have more tactical stations, to begin with? Because the game is heavily weighted towards offensive skills and dps in general.
Plus, engineering stations aren't really worth that much, so 'wasting' one or two of them doesn't hurt.
A science vessel doesn't necessarily need A2B. It has other toys to play with, and it has enough turnrate to allow for diverse loadouts.
A cruiser? Basically boring as hell and often not even the best healers in the game, since many powerful tanking abilities are in the science department. Not many options other than beam arrays, not enough mobility to make eject warp plasma much fun.
A2B can make a cruiser into more than a flying brick and laughing stock.
Overpowered? Hardly. Should there be more alternatives for interesting and powerful cruiser builds? Definitely.
Apart from that, there are a few more 'overpowered' doffs than just those purple technicians.
So uh...what do people use effectively to double the pitiful amount of Escort Eng or Sci stations?
Why do you feel the need to troll? That's not very constructive, you know. Or did I hit a nerve?
Anyway, for what it's worth - last thing I heard was that bug ships do kinda ok'ish, even with that low amount of sci stations.
And on a second note, escorts have pretty much the same number of science stations as cruisers.
(I guess I already covered the 'importance' of engineering stations)
Well basically, you don't have to double them. So that kinda makes your question irrelevant.
You now what else they could use to double the amount of Tac stations to a number they want?
An Escort.
Your point being? Trolling? Get rid of cruisers and let's all fly escorts, science vessels or carriers? Well, mostly escorts.
What niche is there for cruisers? They are supposed to be tanky, and healers.
But tanking in PvE is not necessary and in PvP it rarely get's the job done. Tanking doesn't result in kills, and tenacity isn't exactly what PvP nowadays is about. PvP is usually about disabling and burst damage.
And regarding the second function, both science vessels and carriers are equally good or better healers and usually more fun to use.
So let's just get rid of those flying bricks in space. Let the fluff brigade have a parade in it and forget about it?
Aux2Bat + technicians is a powerful combo, no question about that. But it is not overpowered. To me it merely illustrates how many borderline useless doffs and how few real alternatives there are.
Well, looking at game design, the limitation on the amount of skill slots you get is a game decision with an eye to balancing stuff.
Introducing ways to bork cooldowns to such an extent that you can basically use all your skills up to twice as often kind of messes with that initial concept of limiting slots. Just sayin'.
Sure, the game has plenty balance issues going on, but introducing more and more ways to upset the original means of balancing the game (let's just be honest: of balancing pretty much any game) doesn't help.
Then again, the options are there, so people will use them. Increasing the amount of skills you can use in a certain timeframe increases performance, hence anyone not using the available means is missing out, compared to those that do. Or gimping themselves, if you want to put it that way.
*shrug*
Take from that what you will. I think introducing the possibility was a bad call but now we'll just have to live with it or weather the ****storm unleashed by changing it. If choosing for the living-with-it option, please just not make us able to violate other balancing methods to balance things out. A vicious circle, that way lies.
Okay, here's the reason that I don't like the "waaah, waaah, need AtB to be viable" line of reasoning about AtB and Cruisers.
I want Cruisers to be viable with multiple options. Some gimmick solution is no solution. If a person were seriously interested in Cruiser viability, they wouldn't sell them short like that.
I think Renim would like to have a word with you. :P
Listen, I don't really care bout your Aux to batts cruiser. I own at least 4 of them.
Don't worry, Aux to Batts is not going to be nerfed. It's too popular in PvE.
So go ahead, Fire at Will to your hearts content.
Listen, I don't care what happy little conclusions your powerful leet brain came up with, but I can say with certainty that you're barking up the wrong tree my friend.
Your ad hominem is noted and your credibility reduced in unison.
For what it's worth, I fly cruisers, escorts, carriers and sci vessels. I actually consider the sci toys to be the most fun to use.
If you would've actually read the funny little letters that made up a text, there is a chance you would've understood that I would like to have more variety and alternatives instead of nerfing one thing that works. Hell, I wouldn't give a flying damn about aux2bat if they'd balance the game (read: items, ships, roles).
So please stop beating your chest and acting all condescending. I'm interested in game mechanics and balance, not childish pissing contests. Yeah I know, forums are the wrong place for that. Stupid me.
That was a nice reply mate. I second your opinion. Messing with cooldowns or other basic balancing factors is dangerous. But there's also the stacking of tons of modifiers on top of each other, which is equally bad. Things get out of hand and become almost impossible to balance, if min and max are that far apart.
This!!! I've found my aux2bat cruiser to be the easiest ship to fly in both PvE and PvP. In PvE, you just pull up to a target, tank and unload.
What makes doing this with a2b builds any different than doing the exact same thing with any number of builds?
So many people make it sound like you can ONLY do this with a2b, when in truth you can park next to an NPC baddie and take it down with even the most basic of builds.
I wonder how many complaining do so because they find manually activating the a2b cycle a huge chore and simply resist learning how to keybind?
Because NEWSFLASH: A2B is used mostly by cruisers that would otherwise vastly underperform. Furthermore, here's a little nugget for you escort haters, A2B engi cruisers will usually come out on top of protracted cruiser vs. escort fights assuming its not a battlecloaker that can run away.
Aux2bat is fine as is right now. Is the most realible way of take out some DPS of a crusier.
And not everyone is running aux2bat, is pretty useless for escorts and sci ships. Most of the escorts have all the tactical boffs slots that they need, and sci ships needs sci power.
Aux2bat is usefull in pvp only for eng/tact crusiers.
About PvE, who cares, i don't see the borg complaining here that they are getting stomped by aux2bat builds.
it wont be touched, the dev's have only dared mention it twice, timidly, during 2 AtB build's entire existence so far.
if they nerfed it, it would
1. destroy about half the good builds in the game, at least
2. make the ships that need to use 2 AtB to be any good garbage
2. TRIBBLE off every single cruiser using pve'er more then all the other changes they get pissed off about combined.
pve'ers copy builds from your ship builds topic so you'd only have to "fix" the nerfed a2b builds and they would be fine.Its not like they kill their brain to invent what's already discovered ...if they'd do that they'd play pvp :rolleyes:
Comments
90% of the people i see wanting AtB nerfed have no experience and very little understanding of it. their are drawbacks to using it. a healer build, the primary use of a cruiser cant use it, it needs max aux at all times and AtS. AtB cruisers can be pretty resilient, can use RSP a lot, but arent even close to being as resilient as a heal boat. on tac cruisers AtB allows you to use the ship wrong without majorly penalizing you for it. if you take AtB away from them now, every cruiser will have little choice but to trade their lost offense for defense, you really want more zombie cruisers around?
beyond cruisers theres some gray areas. destroyers and warbirds tend to be able to use it too. the destroyers lack escort turn rates and agility, are a jack of all trades but subpar at directly fighting escorts. they can be outflown and out gunned easily by classic escorts, no AtB destoyer is close to a match for a bug. AtB helps these ships not suck in practice as much as they would otherwise. at the usual price of low aux, and on destroyers and warbirds with cloaks and high end sci skills, being without aux is an achilles heel.
how about warbirds? strong ships, primarily tac with battlecloak. quite a few think its not worth the risk draining your aux all the time when so much of the ships strength comes from attacking from cloak, and then quickly cloaking again. activating something every 10 seconds that has more then a good chance of dropping your aux to 0 for a 10 second period is not for the faint of heart. for tactical ships, they lack enough station slots to double up basic tac skills, so a warbird user has to choose between tac skill up time and healthy all the time aux levels for reliable cloaking.
though i was worried that warbirds with AtB would be overpowered, it ended up being higher risk for higher reward, it balanced itself that way. in the other cases the ships that can use AtB would SUCK tactically without it. dont blame AtB for that, or say that theres no reason to run anything but AtB on them, blame the ships themselves for sucking. AtB has brought up cruiser tactical potential in a way no other change could have. it has made a great deal of ships that would be underpowered just good enough to be worth using. without it the game would look far more cookie cutter. the pve'ers love it, because they can use thier favorite cruiser and it can be as tough as they want it to be.
and yes, several execute whole row macros is much more overpowered then any skill combination in game.
I know you were joking here, but it is funny that we have to repeatedly smash certain powers for what should probably just be base performance.
I mean, the captain/vice admiral needs to personally redistribute the shields every 2s manually? :P
It isn't, I promise you. I've run at least a half dozen A2B builds.
If you have two copies of A2B, and you should, you simply bind them and fire them off constantly.
One of them will fire off every 10s.
So it really does not matter when you do or do not time your other buffs.
The only thing you need to watch is when to pop an aux batt between those cycles.
Here's one of my more extensive keybinds:
W "+invertibleup$$+power_exec Distribute_Shields $$ +trayexecbytray 3 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 3 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 3 8 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 8 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 8"
S "+invertibledown$$+power_exec Distribute_Shields $$ +trayexecbytray 3 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 3 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 3 8 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 8 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 8"
A "+left$$+power_exec Distribute_Shields $$ +trayexecbytray 3 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 3 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 3 8 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 8 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 8"
D "+right$$+power_exec Distribute_Shields $$ +trayexecbytray 3 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 3 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 3 8 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 8 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 8"
E "throttleadjust .25$$+power_exec Distribute_Shields $$ +trayexecbytray 3 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 3 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 3 8 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 8 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 8"
Q "throttleadjust -.25$$+power_exec Distribute_Shields $$ +trayexecbytray 3 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 3 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 3 8 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 4 8 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 6 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 7 $$ +trayexecbytray 5 8"
noob! if you dont hold off on activating AtB when you have skills less then 5 seconds away from being available again, your doing it wrong :P your timings will just be more off next time.
you wont see global on tac skills without a decent amount of mindfulness. long cooldown skills like RSP, HE, APO and DEM sure, but not weapon skills. you want to mash your EPt/AtB/distribute bind AFTER you mash your tac buff bind. they drift apart over time and you need to activly keep them in line.
The reality is that in team PvP you don't actually need CRF up every 15s, every single time.
Most of it is just scoreboard inflation.
You only need those short CD buffs...when you need them.
:P
To be clear, that means when your other buffs align so you can stack them all together for an actual strike and not just wizzing into the wind.
So, it's not as fussy as watching all the little timers.
I've been through about 12 different builds in 7 different ships since January.
I'm pretty tame amongst my fleet when it comes to changing builds.
So don't be so sure you won't see something in a different form.
yes, yes . . . just like those dual heavy cannons are cheesy and way too overpowered . . .
Let's be honest - why do people use Aux2Bat builds?
They use it to effectively double the pitiful amount of cruiser tac stations.
Sure, less cooldown on hazard emitters and other abilities is a plus, but in essence, it's more or less the only way to make an offensive cruiser.
And that's the problem right there! There aren't enough alternatives and the game is badly balanced.
Why is it so important to have more tactical stations, to begin with? Because the game is heavily weighted towards offensive skills and dps in general.
Plus, engineering stations aren't really worth that much, so 'wasting' one or two of them doesn't hurt.
A science vessel doesn't necessarily need A2B. It has other toys to play with, and it has enough turnrate to allow for diverse loadouts.
A cruiser? Basically boring as hell and often not even the best healers in the game, since many powerful tanking abilities are in the science department. Not many options other than beam arrays, not enough mobility to make eject warp plasma much fun.
A2B can make a cruiser into more than a flying brick and laughing stock.
Overpowered? Hardly. Should there be more alternatives for interesting and powerful cruiser builds? Definitely.
Apart from that, there are a few more 'overpowered' doffs than just those purple technicians.
Pretty much this...
So uh...what do people use effectively to double the pitiful amount of Escort Eng or Sci stations?
Why do you feel the need to troll? That's not very constructive, you know. Or did I hit a nerve?
Anyway, for what it's worth - last thing I heard was that bug ships do kinda ok'ish, even with that low amount of sci stations.
And on a second note, escorts have pretty much the same number of science stations as cruisers.
(I guess I already covered the 'importance' of engineering stations)
Well basically, you don't have to double them. So that kinda makes your question irrelevant.
You now what else they could use to double the amount of Tac stations to a number they want?
An Escort.
Your point being? Trolling? Get rid of cruisers and let's all fly escorts, science vessels or carriers? Well, mostly escorts.
What niche is there for cruisers? They are supposed to be tanky, and healers.
But tanking in PvE is not necessary and in PvP it rarely get's the job done. Tanking doesn't result in kills, and tenacity isn't exactly what PvP nowadays is about. PvP is usually about disabling and burst damage.
And regarding the second function, both science vessels and carriers are equally good or better healers and usually more fun to use.
So let's just get rid of those flying bricks in space. Let the fluff brigade have a parade in it and forget about it?
Aux2Bat + technicians is a powerful combo, no question about that. But it is not overpowered. To me it merely illustrates how many borderline useless doffs and how few real alternatives there are.
I think Renim would like to have a word with you. :P
Listen, I don't really care bout your Aux to batts cruiser. I own at least 4 of them.
Don't worry, Aux to Batts is not going to be nerfed. It's too popular in PvE.
So go ahead, Fire at Will to your hearts content.
you accuse him of trolling after you want high dps cruisers and then you say
maybe its time cryptic updates pvp to give some role for tanky ships aka zombie cruisers .
It's not trolling to point out an obvious sense of entitlement.
You said you should be able to double your Tac (and well, it will double other things as well - well, somewhere between 1.0 to 1.5 to 2.0 or so).
Let's say it's a Fleet Assault...you should be able to...
X, X, X
X, X, X
X
X
X, X, X, X
X, -, X, X
X, X
X, -
X, X
X, X
So what's wrong with asking where somebody in a Fleet Patrol should be able to do the following...?
X, X, X, X
X, -, X, X
X, X, X
X, -, X
X, X
X, X
X
X
X, X
X, X
Or somebody in a Fleet Nova being able to...?
X, X, X
X, X, X
X, X
X, X
X, X, X, X
X, -, X, X
X, X
X, -
X
X
I don't think anybody sporting a sig like I've got...really cares about dying.
Introducing ways to bork cooldowns to such an extent that you can basically use all your skills up to twice as often kind of messes with that initial concept of limiting slots. Just sayin'.
Sure, the game has plenty balance issues going on, but introducing more and more ways to upset the original means of balancing the game (let's just be honest: of balancing pretty much any game) doesn't help.
Then again, the options are there, so people will use them. Increasing the amount of skills you can use in a certain timeframe increases performance, hence anyone not using the available means is missing out, compared to those that do. Or gimping themselves, if you want to put it that way.
*shrug*
Take from that what you will. I think introducing the possibility was a bad call but now we'll just have to live with it or weather the ****storm unleashed by changing it. If choosing for the living-with-it option, please just not make us able to violate other balancing methods to balance things out. A vicious circle, that way lies.
I want Cruisers to be viable with multiple options. Some gimmick solution is no solution. If a person were seriously interested in Cruiser viability, they wouldn't sell them short like that.
Listen, I don't care what happy little conclusions your powerful leet brain came up with, but I can say with certainty that you're barking up the wrong tree my friend.
Your ad hominem is noted and your credibility reduced in unison.
For what it's worth, I fly cruisers, escorts, carriers and sci vessels. I actually consider the sci toys to be the most fun to use.
If you would've actually read the funny little letters that made up a text, there is a chance you would've understood that I would like to have more variety and alternatives instead of nerfing one thing that works. Hell, I wouldn't give a flying damn about aux2bat if they'd balance the game (read: items, ships, roles).
So please stop beating your chest and acting all condescending. I'm interested in game mechanics and balance, not childish pissing contests. Yeah I know, forums are the wrong place for that. Stupid me.
That was a nice reply mate. I second your opinion. Messing with cooldowns or other basic balancing factors is dangerous. But there's also the stacking of tons of modifiers on top of each other, which is equally bad. Things get out of hand and become almost impossible to balance, if min and max are that far apart.
What makes doing this with a2b builds any different than doing the exact same thing with any number of builds?
So many people make it sound like you can ONLY do this with a2b, when in truth you can park next to an NPC baddie and take it down with even the most basic of builds.
I wonder how many complaining do so because they find manually activating the a2b cycle a huge chore and simply resist learning how to keybind?
Because NEWSFLASH: A2B is used mostly by cruisers that would otherwise vastly underperform. Furthermore, here's a little nugget for you escort haters, A2B engi cruisers will usually come out on top of protracted cruiser vs. escort fights assuming its not a battlecloaker that can run away.
if they nerfed it, it would
1. destroy about half the good builds in the game, at least
2. make the ships that need to use 2 AtB to be any good garbage
2. TRIBBLE off every single cruiser using pve'er more then all the other changes they get pissed off about combined.
and dont forget how they would then blame the pvp community lol.
Do you even Science Bro?
And not everyone is running aux2bat, is pretty useless for escorts and sci ships. Most of the escorts have all the tactical boffs slots that they need, and sci ships needs sci power.
Aux2bat is usefull in pvp only for eng/tact crusiers.
About PvE, who cares, i don't see the borg complaining here that they are getting stomped by aux2bat builds.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
But it's not. Well, for some it is. For some it is not. That's an issue. If it were "fine" for everybody, then it would be fine.
pve'ers copy builds from your ship builds topic so you'd only have to "fix" the nerfed a2b builds and they would be fine.Its not like they kill their brain to invent what's already discovered ...if they'd do that they'd play pvp :rolleyes: