I just wanted to pop in and start by thanking dontdrunkimshoot for putting such a clear post together and bringing this accessibility issue to the Community as well as QA's eyes.
this was my intent. to be very dev informative and approachable, to lay out what a divide there is right now between the factions, due mostly to the bonuses a full crew of superior romulan and reman boffs can provide the ships your character is useing.
The issue of Federation and Klingon Defense Force players not having equal access to the following Romulan traits: Romulan Operative, Subterfuge and Infiltrator. As well as the implications of a full bridge crew with these stacked traits available to only Romulan players.
on ships that dont cloak though, most of the benefits of those traits dont do anything for them. its not that the kdf and fed dont have access to those traits, its that they dont have access to traits that help them as much as rom faction boffs help warbirds.
After investigation and testing, QA has compiled and submitted a report to the Systems Development Team. The link to this forum thread was also included so that the Dev Staff could review all the user feedback presented.
Although QA and the rest of the development staff visit and read the forums, it will not always nor commonly result in a Dev response. The flux and pace of MMO development keeps everyone here with quite a full plate. Please continue submitting feedback of this calibur so that QA can continue to forward issues identified as well as feedback in improving the STO experience.
Have a great rest of your day all and thanks again.
im happy that my diligence was matched with even greater diligence by QA. hopefully the faction balance will benefit from this exercise, and bringing a non cloaking fed escort against warbirds wont feel so much like taking a knife to a gun fight anymore, after the federation ship has boffs of equal caliber.
I just wanted to pop in and start by thanking dontdrunkimshoot for putting such a clear post together and bringing this accessibility issue to the Community as well as QA's eyes.
The issue of Federation and Klingon Defense Force players not having equal access to the following Romulan traits: Romulan Operative, Subterfuge and Infiltrator. As well as the implications of a full bridge crew with these stacked traits available to only Romulan players.
After investigation and testing, QA has compiled and submitted a report to the Systems Development Team. The link to this forum thread was also included so that the Dev Staff could review all the user feedback presented.
Although QA and the rest of the development staff visit and read the forums, it will not always nor commonly result in a Dev response. The flux and pace of MMO development keeps everyone here with quite a full plate. Please continue submitting feedback of this calibur so that QA can continue to forward issues identified as well as feedback in improving the STO experience.
Have a great rest of your day all and thanks again.
Wow. I just want to thank you for saying something. Or, rather, for letting us know Cryptic *is* present, even when not always visibly. That means a great deal to me. So, thanks again!
I just read the post with the long list of boff space traits and it's mostly the same stuff as always, more damage, heal traits, and junk traits. Not one of those was a really good one for science captains. Since we have tac boff traits and engineer boff traits and I doubt devs want to add more damage/heal junk that will bring imbalance, how about an addition of a simple sci trait that is already in the game to a species that deserves it.
I just wanted to pop in and start by thanking dontdrunkimshoot for putting such a clear post together and bringing this accessibility issue to the Community as well as QA's eyes.
The issue of Federation and Klingon Defense Force players not having equal access to the following Romulan traits: Romulan Operative, Subterfuge and Infiltrator. As well as the implications of a full bridge crew with these stacked traits available to only Romulan players.
After investigation and testing, QA has compiled and submitted a report to the Systems Development Team. The link to this forum thread was also included so that the Dev Staff could review all the user feedback presented.
Although QA and the rest of the development staff visit and read the forums, it will not always nor commonly result in a Dev response. The flux and pace of MMO development keeps everyone here with quite a full plate. Please continue submitting feedback of this calibur so that QA can continue to forward issues identified as well as feedback in improving the STO experience.
Have a great rest of your day all and thanks again.
So while on the topic of fairness Where's the kdf 5 tactical console ships that can turn like the defiant and multi vector We have one but it doesn't count since it turns slower than a carrier :P
I wrote a long post but just decided I couldn't be bothered.
Anywho, I like it, one thing I would like to see is there be a pool of traits so that they are not all locked to specific species. Perhaps certain traits to a few different races or even just have it as a high chance for 2 race favoured traits to appear and a rare to very rare chance of others to appear instead allowing for some variety..
Though, if you were to lock traits you could have a trait like this for Feds:
Diversity: Increases all other (diversity excluded) bridge officer traits by 50% for each different race of bridge officer active.
The idea being that it stacks and you can get half the bonus of a full crew of say efficient but lets you get that from 5 different traits thus promoting a more diverse crew and for people to really choose between min/maxing 2 boff traits and a more well rounded crew which could have half the value of the min/maxers 2 boff traits but with 5 traits.
An example, min/maxer
5x leadership- +20 to subsystem repair, bonus hull regeneration = total +100
5x teamwork- 10% bonus on heals/damage buffs on ET, ST, and TT = total +50%
With diversity and 5 different races:
1x leadership- +20 to subsystem repair, bonus hull regeneration = with diversity +50
1x teamwork- 10% bonus on heals/damage buffs on ET, ST, and TT = with diversity 25%
1x eager to please- +20 skill points to particle gens and warp core potential = with diversity +50
1x efficient- +20 to efficiency skill = with diversity +50
1x telepathy- +20 to countermeasures and targeting skill = with diversity +50
5x Diversity: Increases all other (diversity excluded) bridge officer traits by 50% for each different race of bridge officer active.
I think you nailed the KDF space traits, really captures the essence of the KDF of general damage buff and a bit of cloak buffing but not to the same extent as Roms.
I wrote a long post but just decided I couldn't be bothered.
Anywho, I like it, one thing I would like to see is there be a pool of traits so that they are not all locked to specific species. Perhaps certain traits to a few different races or even just have it as a high chance for 2 race favoured traits to appear and a rare to very rare chance of others to appear instead allowing for some variety..
Though, if you were to lock traits you could have a trait like this for Feds:
Diversity: Increases all other (diversity excluded) bridge officer traits by 50% for each different race of bridge officer active.
The idea being that it stacks and you can get half the bonus of a full crew of say efficient but lets you get that from 5 different traits thus promoting a more diverse crew and for people to really choose between min/maxing 2 boff traits and a more well rounded crew which could have half the value of the min/maxers 2 boff traits but with 5 traits.
An example, min/maxer
5x leadership- +20 to subsystem repair, bonus hull regeneration = total +100
5x teamwork- 10% bonus on heals/damage buffs on ET, ST, and TT = total +50%
With diversity and 5 different races:
1x leadership- +20 to subsystem repair, bonus hull regeneration = with diversity +50
1x teamwork- 10% bonus on heals/damage buffs on ET, ST, and TT = with diversity 25%
1x eager to please- +20 skill points to particle gens and warp core potential = with diversity +50
1x efficient- +20 to efficiency skill = with diversity +50
1x telepathy- +20 to countermeasures and targeting skill = with diversity +50
5x Diversity: Increases all other (diversity excluded) bridge officer traits by 50% for each different race of bridge officer active.
I think you nailed the KDF space traits, really captures the essence of the KDF of general damage buff and a bit of cloak buffing but not to the same extent as Roms.
I like countermeasuers mentioned in there. Along with subspace decompiler, they often times get passed over for other skills.
with the release of LoR, we were graced with the romulan faction. thats hilariously better then ether the KDF or fed faction. heres why
- for 40 less shield power, you get in exchange singularity jump and quantum absorption. 2 heals/evades so useful and powerful, that they will do you a lot more good keeping you alive then a bit more res and regen ever would.
-battlecloak on everything. with the singularity powers mentioned above, its hard not to escape and live, even under heavy fire
-their ships have beter basic stats then federation ship, and dont pay for things like a cloak at all with reduced stats like the kdf does.
- and last but not least, the rom faction boffs, not to be confused with the flunky embassy boffs, that by comparison are washouts that only a desperate fed or kdf captain would want. they are literally table scraps thrown to the dogs.
rom faction boffs have 2 space traits that when you have a full set of 5 superior slotted on your ship are more powerful then any other item of doff your ship may have.
the 3 traits, subterfuge, operative and infiltrator each buff some of these things each
- massively boosted stealth scores that no stealth sight can defeat
- +defense score
- +crit chance
- +crit sevarity
- lower cloak cooldown
- increase ambush damage -does not stack with multiple boffs of the same grade i dont think
- increase ambush duration -does not stack with multiple boffs of the same grade i dont think
so, my character with 4 superior romulan boff and 1 superior reman has a ~96% defense score, about 15% crit chance base, a 12 second battle cloak cooldown, and a 15 second long ambush bonus.
my fed and kdf characters cant hold a candle to performance like that, and every ship that does not have a cloak feels like a knife brought to a gun fight.
for most of you, a rom proboly doesn't feel that OP. thats because you havent spent a ton of EC on an all superior crew, or you spend most of your time shooting STF gates, and that 50 shield power will do you more good then any of that other stuff. the thinking that romulan ships are glass and all that
if those rom boffs did not do any of those things, that would be one thing. the romulan faction would be fairly balanced. sort of nerfing the rom boffs to the point were they dont even have space traits though, what are we to do?
buff every other race of boff for KDF and fed so that they can have space traits as powerful.
i see kdf getting similar cloaking bonuses, and fed getting bonuses for staying in a fight longer, as apposed to cloaking, stuff like that. i strongly feel something like this needs to happen, several pvpers have already totally written off their non rom characters because of how plainly inferior they are.
LoR just about killed the KDF as far as i can tell, they are basically the rom faction, only extreamly watered down. starved for end game ships, having extreamly inferior non battlecloaks, bops that pay out the nose for battlecloak, the monbosh now trumping all kdf battle cruisers, they dont even have leadership boffs. aside from the high quality totorial missions that are great fun, and the kdf elite disrupters that a rom allied can get, theres no incentive to play kdf at all.
that can almost be said for the feds too, but enough people want to live the starfleet experience that it still gets plenty of play. i understand making the romulans as powerful as they are, they are new, and if no one played them all that time and effort and money spent to create them would have been for nothing, the expansion would have been a failure. but now, its time to back fill the other 2 factions a bit, so they can compete again.
new boff space traits
human
leadership- +20 to subsystem repair, bonus hull regeneration
teamwork- 10% bonus on heals/damage buffs on ET, ST, and TT
vulcan
stoicism- 25% placate resistance, can stack to 100%
acute perception- bonus stealth sight
Andorian
passion- Bonus damage as hit points are reduced
acute perception- bonus stealth sight
Tellarite
Stubborn- bonus damage and placate resistance as hit points are reduced
prideful- chance of 20% damage bonus for 10 seconds on receiving critical hits
Bajoran
insurgent- +1.5% Critical Chance +3.8% Critical Severity, +2.5% to all adjusted damage
spiritual- chance of hull or shield heal on hit
Benzite
eager to please- +20 skill points to particle gens and warp core potential
efficient- +20 to efficiency skill
Betazoid
telepathy- +20 to countermeasures and targeting skill
acute perception- bonus stealth sight
Bolian
teamwork- 10% bonus on heals/damage buffs on ET, ST, and TT
eager to please- +20 skill points to particle gens and warp core potential
Caitian (eh, these arent all that... widely available, but whatever)
acute perception- bonus stealth sight
Stubborn- bonus damage and confuse, placate resistance as hit points are reduced
Ferengi
shrewd- 5% discount when buying anything with EC or latinum, 5% bonus to dilithium ore rewards
fortune finder- very rare item drop chance increased by 2.5%
Pakled
dumb luck- +4% Critical Chance, -30 Stun resistance, -30 Confuse resistance, -30 Placate resistance
things to make us go- +20 engine performance skill
(the thought of this doff being real, and having 5 stacked, and actually going into pvp with them makes me lol)
Rigelian
stoicism- 25% placate resistance, can stack to 100%
spiritual- chance of hull or shield heal on hit
Saurian
efficient- +20 to efficiency skill
leadership- +20 to subsystem repair, bonus hull regeneration (eh, they're president now)
Trill
Joined Symbiote- +10 skill points in Hull Repair, Starship Shield Emitters, Starship Weapons Training, Warp Core Potential, Particle Generator and Subspace Decompiler
leadership- +20 to subsystem repair, bonus hull regeneration
Gorn
Stubborn- bonus damage and placate resistance as hit points are reduced
territorial- crit chance and crit severity increase as hit points are reduced
Klingon
honorable- +3% defense +3% accuracy, +10 to weapons training
warrior- +20% ambush damage, +100 stealth, +10% faster cloaking recharge
Lethean
efficient- +20 to efficiency skill
telepathy- +20 to countermeasures and targeting skill
Nausicaan
pirates- +10% to all base damage, +2 second ambush damage bonus
insurgent- +1.5% Critical Chance +3.8% Critical Severity, +2.5% to all adjusted damage
Orion female
leadership- +20 to subsystem repair, bonus hull regeneration
passion- Bonus damage as hit points are reduced
Orion male
teamwork- 10% bonus on heals/damage buffs on ET, ST, and TT
stoicism- 25% placate resistance, can stack to 100%
Ferasan (eh, these arent all that... widely available, but whatever)
acute perception- bonus stealth sight
prideful- chance of 20% damage bonus for 10 seconds on receiving critical hits
all future generated boffs would have a chance to have 1 or both space traits. this would be a perfect additions to season 8, dont wait for the romulans to kill interest in other factions before you act, because they are so plainly better.
You forgot the FED Aenar species BOff (same as Caitians, has to be bought in the C-store)
the OP just had a thrown together set of traits, i proboly spent an hour on it tops. now we should all brainstorm race by race what we think these traits should be.
a few things to keep in mind, fed ships dont cloak, and thats a strait up disadvantage in game. what can boffs do for fed captains that makes not cloaking, and being in a fight for a long time an advantage instead of a weakness? stuff like that. kdf shouldn't have quite as much cloak expertise, but instead proboly focus more on brute force.
i'll start coming up with some remastered traits when i have the time. dont hold back, each rom trait is one hell of a buff, make the other boffs good too.
It's always bugged me how only some boff species and only a portion of them at that get special traits.
I've always felt penalised for having boffs that I like and are attached to, but don't have any special traits.
I like your proposed changes save 1, the Saurian boffs should not get leadership along with their already established efficient trait. I can't help but think that will still make them the "got to have" Fed boff and leave the others greatly less used.
Instead of leadership, lets give them something like a resilient trait allowing them to stay in a space fight longer or a regen of some kind. They already have ground traits that make them more resistant to certain environmental damages, we can do the same for space related damages.
Anyway, that's my 2 EC worth. Great proposed changes nonetheless.
"STO is like a box of chocolates, you never know what bug you're gonna get."
First I'll put what I would like to see for easy reference then the blurb:
6 space traits for Feds (but really only 4 new with 2 old) and 6 to KDF (1 old, 5 new).
I would like to see any specific race be able to have a chance at 4 out of 6 space traits (66% of all traits) so you are not as hampered by using a specific set of species
My personal short list of Fed space traits would be:
Leadership: +20 to subsystem repair, bonus hull regeneration.
Efficient: +20 to efficiency skill.
Astrophysicist: +10 gravitron gens, particle gens, countermeasures and subspace decompiler.
Hardened: Increasing damage resistance while in combat, starts at 0 increases to 10% over 90s (stacks)
Alert: +10 targeting systems, +20 sensors.
Endurance: +0-10% base damage over 90s while in combat (similar to sensor analysis for sci ships but based on time in red alert)
My personal short list of KDF space traits would be:
Warrior: +20% ambush damage, +100 stealth, +10% faster cloaking recharge
Pirate: +10% to all base damage, +2 second ambush damage bonus
Focused: +20% placate + confuse resistance
Manoeuvrable: +20 Impulse thrusters
Scientist: +20 particle gens, +20 subspace decompiler, +10 weapons training. (Yes weapons is intended to be in fitting with KDF)
Efficient: +20 to efficiency skill.
Now the blurb:
Why so small a number? Simple, let?s not add 25+ space traits at a time and make it a balancing nightmare, start small, balance then scale up adding a few extras as and when there?s a niche for it. We should be stating how many space traits total there should be for each faction. This will help get a forecast of how many need adding. I would not like to see more than 8 per faction and would prefer it if they were different between factions to promote faction diversity and variety.
I also think that with the sheer number of races in certainly the Fed boff roster we should not be locking them to one particular race or we risk marginalising certain races. So I would think that if one particular race had 2 space traits which it has more affinity for BUT it has a rare chance to have other space traits instead then that would be ideal. I also think no boff should have more than 2 space traits to keep them balanced between space and ground. I know a lot don't care about ground but let's not neglect that.
So as I put at the top, a specific race should be able to (even if it is rare) have 1-2 of upto 66% of all space traits. The percentage is negotiable, between 50-75% but I really don't want to see boffs marginalised like they were with humans being pretty much the only boffs people used in space combat. At the same time it would be nice if races kept some diversity so are excluded from certain traits.
I tried to keep traits in line with the faction ideology and to fulfil a broad spectrum of ships so as to not only always be about damage or to just buff one type of play style or ship class. Though KDF do have a lot of little boosts to damage, some are tied to cloak and could be locked out of spawning together. Problem is KDF is seen as a battle ready warrior faction so it?s hard to justify not giving them little boosts to base damage, though in reality most of them are no more powerful than adding an extra 1.5 tactical consoles even when stacked.
It might be worth excluding c-store boffs from changes, they already have unique traits, unfortunately a lot of them are either ground or efficiency but either way they are premium items you buy knowing full well that their traits are set in stone. However if the c-store boffs were to be given space traits (even if it's just 1) it would need to be added retrospectively and even then would have to not replace something useful like pounce or that decoy thing from the aenar. Same with the Android boff.
Credit for some traits to DDIS's original list, they were very good and well thought of. I did do some cherry picking and decided against some due to faction themes and limited number.
the OP just had a thrown together set of traits, i proboly spent an hour on it tops. now we should all brainstorm race by race what we think these traits should be.
Yes, that's the impression I got: that you were basically just tossing some ideas around for possible traits -- not a fully worked-out trait proposal. At the very least what I hope Cryptic will get from it -- and it looks like they will -- is that the other species need worthwhile traits too, on par with what Rom boffs have now.
First I'll put what I would like to see for easy reference then the blurb:
6 space traits for Feds (but really only 4 new with 2 old) and 6 to KDF (1 old, 5 new).
I would like to see any specific race be able to have a chance at 4 out of 6 space traits (66% of all traits) so you are not as hampered by using a specific set of species
My personal short list of Fed space traits would be:
Leadership: +20 to subsystem repair, bonus hull regeneration.
Efficient: +20 to efficiency skill.
Astrophysicist: +10 gravitron gens, particle gens, countermeasures and subspace decompiler.
Hardened: Increasing damage resistance while in combat, starts at 0 increases to 10% over 90s (stacks)
Alert: +10 targeting systems, +20 sensors.
Endurance: +0-10% base damage over 90s while in combat (similar to sensor analysis for sci ships)
Love your idea of a trait pool.
Personally, I'd definitely want (certain purple) Fed boffs to have 2.0% CrtH too, akin to what Roms get. 'Alert: +10 targeting systems' would, effectively, likely translate to a marginal increase in CrtH; but nowhere near enough to elevate oneself to 25%.
the OP just had a thrown together set of traits, i proboly spent an hour on it tops. now we should all brainstorm race by race what we think these traits should be.
a few things to keep in mind, fed ships dont cloak, and thats a strait up disadvantage in game. what can boffs do for fed captains that makes not cloaking, and being in a fight for a long time an advantage instead of a weakness? stuff like that. kdf shouldn't have quite as much cloak expertise, but instead proboly focus more on brute force.
i'll start coming up with some remastered traits when i have the time. dont hold back, each rom trait is one hell of a buff, make the other boffs good too.
Just thinking out loud here, so please bear with the mental meandering...
The power of the Rommie faction boffs comes from their ability to stack three traits, all of which add to both the offensive and defensive capability of their parent ship. As such any "bringing up to par" of the Fed and KDF factions should do the very same thing, though perhaps in different ways.
Envisioned as the blue-side counterpart to the Operative line. Thematically seen as an "Efficient" type trait, but more focused on personalization and maximization of starship functions. Think La Forge or O'Brien making crazy modifications to shields and engines, or Worf fine tuning a ship's guns.
2) Increase all hull damage resists by 2/2.5/3. Increase Starship Hull Integrity by 2.2/4.4/6.6 Increase Accuracy by 1.5/3/4.5
The blue-side counterpart to the Subterfuge line. Since fed ships don't have cloaks, their focus has to be more on "always on" buffs as opposed to boosting the cloak. As such, some magnitudes (notably Accuracy) are considerably lower than their Rommie counterparts.
3) Increase Inertial Dampeners, Starship sensors and Starship Countermeasures by 15/30/45 (does not stack). Reduce BOFF cooldowns by 2.5/3.8/5% (does not stack) Increase Weapon Drain Resist by 5/7.5/10
Blue-side counterpart to Infiltrator. A much harder pairing to make since Infiltrator hugely increases the capability of a ship's cloak, especially in conjunction with Operative. I'm not entirely sold on this one myself, but the idea I had was something that allowed Feds to have a bit less vulnerability to being locked down by surprise hits, while also putting in a minor improvement to all powers via the CD reduction.
KDF Traits:
1) Increase total damage by 0.75/1.5/2.25% Increase Accuracy by 1/2/3% Increase Defense by 0.75/1.5/2.25%
Counterpart to Operative. Envisioned as an across the board increase to offense, as opposed to Romulan's increased spikiness or the Fed's capacity to stay in the fight.
2) Reduce cloak cooldown by 2.5/5/7.5% Increase power transfer rate after decloaking by 2/4/6 Energy Per Second. Reduce time to cloak/decloak by 2.5/5/7.5%
Counterpart to Subterfuge. Envisioned as a boost to the "hit and run" capability of the KDF. Obviously limited by the lack of BC on most KDF ships, but I liked the concept and wanted to get it out there to see if anyone could improve on it.
3) Increase Starship Shield Systems by 1.1/2.2/3.3 Increase Defense by 1/2/3% Increase all skills by 15/22.5/30 for 10 seconds after decloaking (does not stack).
Counterpart to Infiltrator. Defensive in nature, but still providing a fairly potent boost post-cloak. Again, trying to find a way to tie incentives to non pew pew setups.
I just wanted to pop in and start by thanking dontdrunkimshoot for putting such a clear post together and bringing this accessibility issue to the Community as well as QA's eyes.
The issue of Federation and Klingon Defense Force players not having equal access to the following Romulan traits: Romulan Operative, Subterfuge and Infiltrator. As well as the implications of a full bridge crew with these stacked traits available to only Romulan players.
After investigation and testing, QA has compiled and submitted a report to the Systems Development Team. The link to this forum thread was also included so that the Dev Staff could review all the user feedback presented.
Although QA and the rest of the development staff visit and read the forums, it will not always nor commonly result in a Dev response. The flux and pace of MMO development keeps everyone here with quite a full plate. Please continue submitting feedback of this calibur so that QA can continue to forward issues identified as well as feedback in improving the STO experience.
Have a great rest of your day all and thanks again.
This is wonderful news, finally kdf and normal feds get the balance pass they deserve.
rom faction gets their super powerful boffs as rewards for leveling, they dont require fleet marks or dilithium, its just luck of the draw free. theres a chance the boffs wont have space traits too, thats not a sure thing. the rom boffs have 3 grades of their traits, i dont really think thats necessary for the other factions, thats a holdover from the embassy boff tiered quality.
thats what we should expect from these fed and kdf boffs too. this is what the 3 rom faction traits do, the fed and kdf boffs should be as powerful
S. infiltrator
+3.8 defense
+10 seconds to ambush damage bonus duration (2 superior dont stack, but 1 of each lower grade would)
+200 stealth wile cloaked
superior rom boffs have both subterfuge and operative, and reman have both subterfuge and infiltrator. efficient, leadership, and pirate if it were to work arent 1/10 as good as any of these traits. so, aim high when brain storming.
This is all well and good - but Romulans don't have their own faction, making the entire argument moot. Technically FED and KDF do have these powers... through Romulan players.
That said... it does seem to be the KDF is the only one that has no faction-specific space trait. It's nice that you can make a Joined Trill for either faction but that doesn't count. There's no Klingon counterpart to Leadership.
This is all well and good - but Romulans don't have their own faction, making the entire argument moot. Technically FED and KDF do have these powers... through Romulan players.
That said... it does seem to be the KDF is the only one that has no faction-specific space trait. It's nice that you can make a Joined Trill for either faction but that doesn't count. There's no Klingon counterpart to Leadership.
While i agree on the faction issue, QQ'd about it for a bit, and then gave up, the argument is not moot.
At the risk of repeating a number of posts, apart from a corporate profit argument, I fail to see how it can be considered reasonable to ask players to essentially confine any Pre-LoR characters to the trash can as obsolete. Fed and KDF characters do NOT have 'natural' access to these traits nor to any other traits with anywhere the level of benefit to combat.
These are characters on which they have spent a great deal of time, effort and in probably most cases money at one time or another. No, the argument is most definately not moot.
That's the reason this thread has appeared and the fact that it is so obviously a balance issue is probably also why it has attracted the attention of the dev team.
Thank you dontdrunkimshoot for starting it and thank you devs for validating his efforts.
"So my fun is wrong?"
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
OP, the Infiltrator ambush duration increase DOES stack. My most recent character, a Reman SCI, at Lv32 and with the proper BOFFs with Infiltrator / Superior Infiltrator, had 24 seconds ambush duration.
24 SECONDS... at Lv32.
I am unsure if Subterfuge bonus decloak damage stacks, however.
Edit to add: Side note, even with implementation of better Fed/KDF BOFF traits, allied Romulans will still access and use them. Kind of defeating the purpose of KDF & Fed to get these advantages, when the Roms will still get them on top of their own subfaction specific BOFFs.
Edit to add: Side note, even with implementation of better Fed/KDF BOFF traits, allied Romulans will still access and use them. Kind of defeating the purpose of KDF & Fed to get these advantages, when the Roms will still get them on top of their own subfaction specific BOFFs.
Good point. Even so however that's no different than a Romulan choosing to use a full team of Human BOFFs. They give up their uber-BOFF traits in order to do so.
So even if we get new traits for the other two factions, while Romulans COULD use them, doesn't mean that they would since they wouldn't have all that Subterfuge/Operative/Infiltrator stacking.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
These are characters on which they have spent a great deal of time, effort and in probably most cases money at one time or another. No, the argument is most definately not moot.
I still disagree - because regardless of how much money you sink into an MMO, expecting a single character to have access to EVERYTHING is unreasonable. The "play to win" model is bad enough without the capability to be essentially omnipotent.
You have the same capability to create multiple characters with multiple roles at no cost. Three races, three free slots. Do the math.
I still disagree - because regardless of how much money you sink into an MMO, expecting a single character to have access to EVERYTHING is unreasonable. The "play to win" model is bad enough without the capability to be essentially omnipotent.
You have the same capability to create multiple characters with multiple roles at no cost. Three races, three free slots. Do the math.
The point the OP and subsequent points are making is that one faction DOES have access to almost everything.
My Fed-Romulan has access to:
The best boffs of Fed and Romulan with Romulans being better.
All the Fed special universal consoles, some KDF special universal consoles and Romulan special universal consoles.
Access to 5 great bonus get out of jail free cards through singularity cores at the cost of 40 power.
Battle cloaks inbuilt on all ships as standard with hull and shield mods comparable to the Fed counter unit.
All current duty officers and special romulan only duty officers.
I dare say DDIS can come up with even more but that's off the top of my head.
We're not wanting 1 faction to rule them all, we're wanting there to be a difference between the 3 factions and for them to be remotely balanced. At the moment the Romulans have the best of both worlds while the Feds have the best of one and the KDF...are they still around? (just incase someone misinterprets that, I am indicating there is no need to roll KDF as anything they have, Roms have and more, especially if you go Rom-KDF)
If you cannot see what not only the players but the Devs themselves have seen then you perhaps need to play a bit more of the game and seriously compare the power of the romulans vs KDF/Fed. I can tell you now PvP is dead, it's RvR or a romlstomp.
I still disagree - because regardless of how much money you sink into an MMO, expecting a single character to have access to EVERYTHING is unreasonable. The "play to win" model is bad enough without the capability to be essentially omnipotent.
You have the same capability to create multiple characters with multiple roles at no cost. Three races, three free slots. Do the math.
First off, the issue of money spent is just an extra twist of the knife. I am far more concerned with players feeling like they have wasted the time and thought they have put into their builds.
Same capapbility to make these characters, yes, but to repeat, the point of this thread is not about kdf/fed having access to everything, it's about the Rom boff stacking having the effect that basically, there is a substantial and noticable disadvantage to rolling anything but Romulan/Reman.
The math is pretty stark. Everything is over a lot quicker when you have 5 Superior Rom/Reman boff equipped ships than when you have 5 fed and/or kdf ships wth equivalent set ups.
It's not a 'where's my I win' button issue, it's not a 'L2P' issue, it's a gameplay and balance issue. F2P or P2W, all factions should be euqually as viable. Currently, there is an imbalance. That's the point of this thread.
"So my fun is wrong?"
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
maybe some people dont know what its like to have 600 mil+ invested, years of accolades, maxxed cxp, 400 purple doffs and so on, only to realise you may as well have been nerfed to uselessness with the introduction of LoR. as a longtime kdf, pvp had been a huge part of how i spent my time in sto. i went from being a top of the team asset to becoming a liability to my team for the simple fact i wasnt some freakish romulan with 95% crit.
so listen up cryptic. i am the one that popped more boxes than john holms. im the one that bought numerous lobi consoles and posted premium ships on the exchange. i was one of your golden eggs. after this though, i dont think i will ever again bother to invest myself so much into a single toon ever again. you burnt me.
Comments
this was my intent. to be very dev informative and approachable, to lay out what a divide there is right now between the factions, due mostly to the bonuses a full crew of superior romulan and reman boffs can provide the ships your character is useing.
on ships that dont cloak though, most of the benefits of those traits dont do anything for them. its not that the kdf and fed dont have access to those traits, its that they dont have access to traits that help them as much as rom faction boffs help warbirds.
im happy that my diligence was matched with even greater diligence by QA. hopefully the faction balance will benefit from this exercise, and bringing a non cloaking fed escort against warbirds wont feel so much like taking a knife to a gun fight anymore, after the federation ship has boffs of equal caliber.
Wow. I just want to thank you for saying something. Or, rather, for letting us know Cryptic *is* present, even when not always visibly. That means a great deal to me. So, thanks again!
Vulcan - Astrophysicist - +10 Starship Sensors, +10 Flow Capacitors, + 10 Particle Generation
Spock would approve, don't you think?
So while on the topic of fairness
Anywho, I like it, one thing I would like to see is there be a pool of traits so that they are not all locked to specific species. Perhaps certain traits to a few different races or even just have it as a high chance for 2 race favoured traits to appear and a rare to very rare chance of others to appear instead allowing for some variety..
Though, if you were to lock traits you could have a trait like this for Feds:
Diversity: Increases all other (diversity excluded) bridge officer traits by 50% for each different race of bridge officer active.
The idea being that it stacks and you can get half the bonus of a full crew of say efficient but lets you get that from 5 different traits thus promoting a more diverse crew and for people to really choose between min/maxing 2 boff traits and a more well rounded crew which could have half the value of the min/maxers 2 boff traits but with 5 traits.
An example, min/maxer
5x leadership- +20 to subsystem repair, bonus hull regeneration = total +100
5x teamwork- 10% bonus on heals/damage buffs on ET, ST, and TT = total +50%
With diversity and 5 different races:
1x leadership- +20 to subsystem repair, bonus hull regeneration = with diversity +50
1x teamwork- 10% bonus on heals/damage buffs on ET, ST, and TT = with diversity 25%
1x eager to please- +20 skill points to particle gens and warp core potential = with diversity +50
1x efficient- +20 to efficiency skill = with diversity +50
1x telepathy- +20 to countermeasures and targeting skill = with diversity +50
5x Diversity: Increases all other (diversity excluded) bridge officer traits by 50% for each different race of bridge officer active.
I think you nailed the KDF space traits, really captures the essence of the KDF of general damage buff and a bit of cloak buffing but not to the same extent as Roms.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I like countermeasuers mentioned in there. Along with subspace decompiler, they often times get passed over for other skills.
You forgot the FED Aenar species BOff (same as Caitians, has to be bought in the C-store)
Recruitment: Neverwinter Online (spotlight)(wiki) - Star Trek Online Federation - Star Trek Online Klingon - Star Trek Online Romulan - Champions Online
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a few things to keep in mind, fed ships dont cloak, and thats a strait up disadvantage in game. what can boffs do for fed captains that makes not cloaking, and being in a fight for a long time an advantage instead of a weakness? stuff like that. kdf shouldn't have quite as much cloak expertise, but instead proboly focus more on brute force.
i'll start coming up with some remastered traits when i have the time. dont hold back, each rom trait is one hell of a buff, make the other boffs good too.
But well done for getting this post to the Devs attention everyone
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
If they do buff Fed/KDF I can see myself ditching my Rom. I've yet to finish rep on him and I would rather not if I could avoid it.
Tell me about it, I got to rep grind my shiny new Sci Rom, it's a pain, and I need to start on a new Tac soon as well, grind grind grind
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
I've always felt penalised for having boffs that I like and are attached to, but don't have any special traits.
Also, don't forget about Android boffs!
Instead of leadership, lets give them something like a resilient trait allowing them to stay in a space fight longer or a regen of some kind. They already have ground traits that make them more resistant to certain environmental damages, we can do the same for space related damages.
Anyway, that's my 2 EC worth. Great proposed changes nonetheless.
Original Join Date: Jan 2010
6 space traits for Feds (but really only 4 new with 2 old) and 6 to KDF (1 old, 5 new).
I would like to see any specific race be able to have a chance at 4 out of 6 space traits (66% of all traits) so you are not as hampered by using a specific set of species
My personal short list of Fed space traits would be:
Leadership: +20 to subsystem repair, bonus hull regeneration.
Efficient: +20 to efficiency skill.
Astrophysicist: +10 gravitron gens, particle gens, countermeasures and subspace decompiler.
Hardened: Increasing damage resistance while in combat, starts at 0 increases to 10% over 90s (stacks)
Alert: +10 targeting systems, +20 sensors.
Endurance: +0-10% base damage over 90s while in combat (similar to sensor analysis for sci ships but based on time in red alert)
My personal short list of KDF space traits would be:
Warrior: +20% ambush damage, +100 stealth, +10% faster cloaking recharge
Pirate: +10% to all base damage, +2 second ambush damage bonus
Focused: +20% placate + confuse resistance
Manoeuvrable: +20 Impulse thrusters
Scientist: +20 particle gens, +20 subspace decompiler, +10 weapons training. (Yes weapons is intended to be in fitting with KDF)
Efficient: +20 to efficiency skill.
Now the blurb:
Why so small a number? Simple, let?s not add 25+ space traits at a time and make it a balancing nightmare, start small, balance then scale up adding a few extras as and when there?s a niche for it. We should be stating how many space traits total there should be for each faction. This will help get a forecast of how many need adding. I would not like to see more than 8 per faction and would prefer it if they were different between factions to promote faction diversity and variety.
I also think that with the sheer number of races in certainly the Fed boff roster we should not be locking them to one particular race or we risk marginalising certain races. So I would think that if one particular race had 2 space traits which it has more affinity for BUT it has a rare chance to have other space traits instead then that would be ideal. I also think no boff should have more than 2 space traits to keep them balanced between space and ground. I know a lot don't care about ground but let's not neglect that.
So as I put at the top, a specific race should be able to (even if it is rare) have 1-2 of upto 66% of all space traits. The percentage is negotiable, between 50-75% but I really don't want to see boffs marginalised like they were with humans being pretty much the only boffs people used in space combat. At the same time it would be nice if races kept some diversity so are excluded from certain traits.
I tried to keep traits in line with the faction ideology and to fulfil a broad spectrum of ships so as to not only always be about damage or to just buff one type of play style or ship class. Though KDF do have a lot of little boosts to damage, some are tied to cloak and could be locked out of spawning together. Problem is KDF is seen as a battle ready warrior faction so it?s hard to justify not giving them little boosts to base damage, though in reality most of them are no more powerful than adding an extra 1.5 tactical consoles even when stacked.
It might be worth excluding c-store boffs from changes, they already have unique traits, unfortunately a lot of them are either ground or efficiency but either way they are premium items you buy knowing full well that their traits are set in stone. However if the c-store boffs were to be given space traits (even if it's just 1) it would need to be added retrospectively and even then would have to not replace something useful like pounce or that decoy thing from the aenar. Same with the Android boff.
Credit for some traits to DDIS's original list, they were very good and well thought of. I did do some cherry picking and decided against some due to faction themes and limited number.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Yes, that's the impression I got: that you were basically just tossing some ideas around for possible traits -- not a fully worked-out trait proposal. At the very least what I hope Cryptic will get from it -- and it looks like they will -- is that the other species need worthwhile traits too, on par with what Rom boffs have now.
Love your idea of a trait pool.
Personally, I'd definitely want (certain purple) Fed boffs to have 2.0% CrtH too, akin to what Roms get. 'Alert: +10 targeting systems' would, effectively, likely translate to a marginal increase in CrtH; but nowhere near enough to elevate oneself to 25%.
Just thinking out loud here, so please bear with the mental meandering...
The power of the Rommie faction boffs comes from their ability to stack three traits, all of which add to both the offensive and defensive capability of their parent ship. As such any "bringing up to par" of the Fed and KDF factions should do the very same thing, though perhaps in different ways.
Federation Traits:
1) Increases Shield resist by 1/1.5/2 %. Grants Weapon Drain Resist 5/10/15. Increases Turn rate .25/.5/.75
Envisioned as the blue-side counterpart to the Operative line. Thematically seen as an "Efficient" type trait, but more focused on personalization and maximization of starship functions. Think La Forge or O'Brien making crazy modifications to shields and engines, or Worf fine tuning a ship's guns.
2) Increase all hull damage resists by 2/2.5/3. Increase Starship Hull Integrity by 2.2/4.4/6.6 Increase Accuracy by 1.5/3/4.5
The blue-side counterpart to the Subterfuge line. Since fed ships don't have cloaks, their focus has to be more on "always on" buffs as opposed to boosting the cloak. As such, some magnitudes (notably Accuracy) are considerably lower than their Rommie counterparts.
3) Increase Inertial Dampeners, Starship sensors and Starship Countermeasures by 15/30/45 (does not stack). Reduce BOFF cooldowns by 2.5/3.8/5% (does not stack) Increase Weapon Drain Resist by 5/7.5/10
Blue-side counterpart to Infiltrator. A much harder pairing to make since Infiltrator hugely increases the capability of a ship's cloak, especially in conjunction with Operative. I'm not entirely sold on this one myself, but the idea I had was something that allowed Feds to have a bit less vulnerability to being locked down by surprise hits, while also putting in a minor improvement to all powers via the CD reduction.
KDF Traits:
1) Increase total damage by 0.75/1.5/2.25% Increase Accuracy by 1/2/3% Increase Defense by 0.75/1.5/2.25%
Counterpart to Operative. Envisioned as an across the board increase to offense, as opposed to Romulan's increased spikiness or the Fed's capacity to stay in the fight.
2) Reduce cloak cooldown by 2.5/5/7.5% Increase power transfer rate after decloaking by 2/4/6 Energy Per Second. Reduce time to cloak/decloak by 2.5/5/7.5%
Counterpart to Subterfuge. Envisioned as a boost to the "hit and run" capability of the KDF. Obviously limited by the lack of BC on most KDF ships, but I liked the concept and wanted to get it out there to see if anyone could improve on it.
3) Increase Starship Shield Systems by 1.1/2.2/3.3 Increase Defense by 1/2/3% Increase all skills by 15/22.5/30 for 10 seconds after decloaking (does not stack).
Counterpart to Infiltrator. Defensive in nature, but still providing a fairly potent boost post-cloak. Again, trying to find a way to tie incentives to non pew pew setups.
This is wonderful news, finally kdf and normal feds get the balance pass they deserve.
Breen... maybe bonus to flow cap, something of that sort
Hadar...maybe accurate or along those lines
Either way great ideas, glad to see QA stepping up to let the systems/dev know.
thats what we should expect from these fed and kdf boffs too. this is what the 3 rom faction traits do, the fed and kdf boffs should be as powerful
subterfuge-
+2.5% defense
2% more ambush damage
+150 stealth wile cloaked
S. operative
+2% crit chance
+5% crit sevarity
15% faster cloak cooldown
S. infiltrator
+3.8 defense
+10 seconds to ambush damage bonus duration (2 superior dont stack, but 1 of each lower grade would)
+200 stealth wile cloaked
superior rom boffs have both subterfuge and operative, and reman have both subterfuge and infiltrator. efficient, leadership, and pirate if it were to work arent 1/10 as good as any of these traits. so, aim high when brain storming.
That said... it does seem to be the KDF is the only one that has no faction-specific space trait. It's nice that you can make a Joined Trill for either faction but that doesn't count. There's no Klingon counterpart to Leadership.
While i agree on the faction issue, QQ'd about it for a bit, and then gave up, the argument is not moot.
At the risk of repeating a number of posts, apart from a corporate profit argument, I fail to see how it can be considered reasonable to ask players to essentially confine any Pre-LoR characters to the trash can as obsolete. Fed and KDF characters do NOT have 'natural' access to these traits nor to any other traits with anywhere the level of benefit to combat.
These are characters on which they have spent a great deal of time, effort and in probably most cases money at one time or another. No, the argument is most definately not moot.
That's the reason this thread has appeared and the fact that it is so obviously a balance issue is probably also why it has attracted the attention of the dev team.
Thank you dontdrunkimshoot for starting it and thank you devs for validating his efforts.
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
24 SECONDS... at Lv32.
I am unsure if Subterfuge bonus decloak damage stacks, however.
Edit to add: Side note, even with implementation of better Fed/KDF BOFF traits, allied Romulans will still access and use them. Kind of defeating the purpose of KDF & Fed to get these advantages, when the Roms will still get them on top of their own subfaction specific BOFFs.
Good point. Even so however that's no different than a Romulan choosing to use a full team of Human BOFFs. They give up their uber-BOFF traits in order to do so.
So even if we get new traits for the other two factions, while Romulans COULD use them, doesn't mean that they would since they wouldn't have all that Subterfuge/Operative/Infiltrator stacking.
You have the same capability to create multiple characters with multiple roles at no cost. Three races, three free slots. Do the math.
The point the OP and subsequent points are making is that one faction DOES have access to almost everything.
My Fed-Romulan has access to:
The best boffs of Fed and Romulan with Romulans being better.
All the Fed special universal consoles, some KDF special universal consoles and Romulan special universal consoles.
Access to 5 great bonus get out of jail free cards through singularity cores at the cost of 40 power.
Battle cloaks inbuilt on all ships as standard with hull and shield mods comparable to the Fed counter unit.
All current duty officers and special romulan only duty officers.
I dare say DDIS can come up with even more but that's off the top of my head.
We're not wanting 1 faction to rule them all, we're wanting there to be a difference between the 3 factions and for them to be remotely balanced. At the moment the Romulans have the best of both worlds while the Feds have the best of one and the KDF...are they still around? (just incase someone misinterprets that, I am indicating there is no need to roll KDF as anything they have, Roms have and more, especially if you go Rom-KDF)
If you cannot see what not only the players but the Devs themselves have seen then you perhaps need to play a bit more of the game and seriously compare the power of the romulans vs KDF/Fed. I can tell you now PvP is dead, it's RvR or a romlstomp.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
First off, the issue of money spent is just an extra twist of the knife. I am far more concerned with players feeling like they have wasted the time and thought they have put into their builds.
Same capapbility to make these characters, yes, but to repeat, the point of this thread is not about kdf/fed having access to everything, it's about the Rom boff stacking having the effect that basically, there is a substantial and noticable disadvantage to rolling anything but Romulan/Reman.
The math is pretty stark. Everything is over a lot quicker when you have 5 Superior Rom/Reman boff equipped ships than when you have 5 fed and/or kdf ships wth equivalent set ups.
It's not a 'where's my I win' button issue, it's not a 'L2P' issue, it's a gameplay and balance issue. F2P or P2W, all factions should be euqually as viable. Currently, there is an imbalance. That's the point of this thread.
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
so listen up cryptic. i am the one that popped more boxes than john holms. im the one that bought numerous lobi consoles and posted premium ships on the exchange. i was one of your golden eggs. after this though, i dont think i will ever again bother to invest myself so much into a single toon ever again. you burnt me.
free jkname
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