its likely if not guaranteed not a signle person in that game used any torpedoes let alone stack hy. why was high yield included in this nerf, is the real question
Way off topic but... blaming one member for a TEAM loss is pretty weak.
If someone died 3 times because they needed a tac team... perhaps the guys playing ESCORT should have saw that and fixed it after the first or at least second death.
Silly DPS players that don't know how to escort.
Seriously, this. Your escorts should just be doing this.
Your target caller should be calling that out.
Or your SCIs.
Or like..someone who is one of the other 4 guys.
I've played on teams in tourneys and lost and I suck it up and tell the other team congrats and that they just played better than us, better coordination, and they did and they deserved the win - like Division Hispania who beat my team in the recent tourney. They just played better.
Then you have the OP:
Ragey nerf thread? Check.
Deflection of topic? Check.
Insults & Accusations of cheating? Check.
Excuses for losing, blaming 1 player in a team game? Check.
its likely if not guaranteed not a signle person in that game used any torpedoes let alone stack hy. why was high yield included in this nerf, is the real question
More correctly: No top damage dealer uses torpedoes.
For support players / healers, torpedoes are still a viable choice; but that usually means chronitons or plasma torpedoes for their utility, not the damage.
I don't quite see the need to change HY/TS, but if prebuffing multiple TS/HY is the only way to use torpedoes for damage, there is something at a deeper level that makes torpedoes useless (we all know that TT is the primary offender here).
Dude, chillax, I think pretty much everyone sane agrees that Torps need a major buff.
Having them get nerfed now is easily one of the silliest things I've seen this year.
Not to mention that this nerf completely ruins any point to projectile weapons officers.
please let us refocus the discussion on this key major flaw to the proposed changes. sorry for gettin mad but at least many see the light, torpedoes shouldnt be being penalized further.
frankly tvaro is a TORP ship, those guys using no torps on it were always the problem. torps demand timing and skill, autofiring a preloaded double tap simply did not.
Torps are fine, its shield-stripping that needs a buff
Shield stripping used to be over the line though... a small buff to a few of the sci strip skills prehaps... but torps can be made vaible by simply changing the way they effect shields depending on the amount of shields a facing has.
Increase the bleed through as the % of shields drop... have a sliver of shields save a good chunk of the dmg... but not completely ignore as it is now either.
If people under 10% shields on a facing started taking 50% of a torps dmg... people would start running them.
That one guy pretty much just threw our chemistry in the toilet.
It was more than just lack of communication.
It happens to everyone... most people just wouldn't say it in public. When I used to do the premade thing I teamed with my friends. Perhaps its just my Canadian side, I just can't imagine ever having pointed a finger at any of them when we bite it.
Seriously, this. Your escorts should just be doing this.
Your target caller should be calling that out.
Or your SCIs.
Or like..someone who is one of the other 4 guys.
I've played on teams in tourneys and lost and I suck it up and tell the other team congrats and that they just played better than us, better coordination, and they did and they deserved the win - like Division Hispania who beat my team in the recent tourney. They just played better.
Then you have the OP:
Ragey nerf thread? Check.
Deflection of topic? Check.
Insults & Accusations of cheating? Check.
Excuses for losing, blaming 1 player in a team game? Check.
dude you make me laugh... really you do xD...
like qoro said, it was more complicated than that.. but yes i shoulnt blame him... i should blame myself for bringing him... at least i learn my lesson there... when people dont care about the team they might as well be out of it...
and keeping with your checking, lets see about you...
Defend overpowered abilitie that team mate uses for team to win?double check...
say that there is not enough damage without that? triple check...
showing old games to try to support his actions? check...
tell that a group of players(escorts) are noobs? check...
but well i will not lose more time replying to you :P dotn worry about a thing... because every little thing is gonna be allright...
but i just said someone hwne i pointed fingers... i didnt say names... that is up to you guys to say because i know you guys like to say a few things...
P.S.: my guys know that i will defend them if they deserve my trust, when they loose it... they leave the circle... as simple as that
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Federation :: Fleetless :: Klingon Jorge Silva - Tac | Nayja - Sci | Jorge E. Silva - Eng Jorge R. Silva - Tac (Romulan Fed) Nayja K Silva - Sci | Vurg'jah - Tac
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
and keeping with your checking, lets see about you...
Defend overpowered abilitie that team mate uses for team to win?double check... Quote where I defend it and say no nerf should happen.
say that there is not enough damage without that? triple check...Quote where I say there is not enough damage, go back and try real reading comprehension.* Reference included.
showing old games to try to support his actions? check... THAT WASN'T EVEN ME
tell that a group of players(escorts) are noobs? check...Did you just make this up completely from your imagination-land, or are you again mistaking me for someone else?
Comments in red.
Feel free to go through your own thread to find any of the things you claim.
Try facts next time.
Here are some quotes, from your own thread, that you should actually try reading even a little.
On the other hand, crippling spike damage at this point will leave us back in a situation where good teams will be stalemating and unable to kill protected targets.
Unfortunately I don't think we can realistically reduce spike damage without correspondingly reducing the massive survivability inflation we've seen over the past year and a half.
Will you also be looking at corresponding mechanics such as all of the mitigation power creep that has made all but spike damage easy to shrug off in coordinated team play?
Wow, this topic went off the rails. No wonder the developers find it pointless posting here.
To make this thread more valid again and moving away from e-peen stroking and chest thumping on ALL sides, i don't think anyone has been defending double, treble, multi vape taps. What i have been seeing in this thread in summary is the following:
There are things in the game which are far worse, yet those things are left unchecked?!?!?
Scramble DOFFS
Aux to Batt powered EMP bursts
etc. etc.
Nerfing the "vape tap" isn't a bad thing at all.
Doing the "nerf" in isolation without addressing the core issues of why such builds became necessary is a major issue. ResA / ResB shields being one of those points ruling out suppression damage.
Any fleet worth it's salt, knows that if they don't adapt to the current meta game, they will drop off rapidly. That being said, once the double tap disappears, don't assume that other fleets who "abuse" double taps are incapable of finding other ways of achieving the same outcome.
I'm sure the same people complaining about the double taps now will be complaining about another build soon because it moved away from the classical "I don't wanna loose my 4 dual heavy cannons up front so other builds must be borked" build.
Everybody dies in this game - No one is Godly in PvP and doesn't die.
Play Tyler Durden and you'll soon learn that. Funny how some so called top players don't want to participate and instead want to just smash pugs. Might "tarnish" their reputation if they die
(Its a challenge and an advertise in disguise to play in Tyler Durden, not a jab :P )
Any fleet worth it's salt, knows that if they don't adapt to the current meta game, they will drop off rapidly. That being said, once the double tap disappears, don't assume that other fleets who "abuse" double taps are incapable of finding other ways of achieving the same outcome.
That's kind of part of the complaint.
This doesn't actually fix anything, does it? For those folks that are complaining about getting popped so fast...this isn't going to stop that.
C'mon, how many folks out there pop before you've even finished that 2-4s run? It's like wtf?
Yes, it's a different world in the Premade World...but this change, c'mon - it reeks of the "it's too hard" garbage that's ruining the game left, right, and center.
Cryptic does something like this...at the same time they're getting ready to "sell" what's basically a battle cloaking Moebius that can use Rom BOFFs...? Seriously?
Cryptic is doing this - after adding how many things to make this that much easier and that much more effective? Hrmmm, they made their money off of it - sales were diminishing - let's nerf it in preparation for the next thing they're going to support for a period of time.
Seriously, sometimes when I log in - it reminds me of the older brother slapping the younger brother with the younger brother's hand while saying, "Stop hitting yourself." - I'm wondering if maybe I didn't fall down at some point and incur brain damage to keep doing this...
I didn't expect such a strong reaction from you Minimax, after all this is just a game (a phrase u have heard million times, I presume). Its a pitty that your setup got screwed in process of removing what is incredibly abused in this game. I'm sure as u adapted after trico nerf, u will find yourself in some new setup.
To wanna be pvp police officer, for whom, no one gives a dam, I personally wont play TD more cos of your involvement in it, which I find is a pathetic attempt to be some infulent person in this game. Which is shame, its a good idea. Also, u shouldn't speak about excuses, because as I remember, elite disruptors are too powerful, and that's why they beat us! MoooM!
I was about to make a joke about x nooblet, but I think that would hurt his feelings. Anyways, we know each other long time.
Double shield, Dolce!
[10:49] [Combat (Self)] Your Proton Barrage deals 96581 (43411) Proton(Critical) to Seto.
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
Just chain EptE with EptX DOFFs, solvers power problems, add dual Aux2Batt in a Temporal Destroyer with Elachi weapons on BFAW or BO while running 95/15/75/15 and enjoy your new troll boat.
Hi, my name is: Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Off topic I know... but everyone is welcome in TD... and no one is in charge of anything no matter what they say... out side of the games they may be creating.
The TD fight club isn't about your fleets or your egos... start matches if you like the idea. Join matches if you like the idea... Leave the fleet / forum / opvp girly fighting TRIBBLE there.
Enjoy slapping at each other for awhile and that's that. If you really don't like someone that much what ever join matches when there not around or something.
Double-tap is bad gameplay - period, end of story. It's a workaround for a shared cooldown that was always supposed to prevent exactly what's happening. It fixes a lot of things about this small problem - but the point that many are making (and that I agree with) is that this fix is just a drop in the moderately large bucket in the grand scheme of unwinding and overhauling combat math to make things feel fair for both aggressors and defenders, and make combat between evenly matched adversaries take a more reasonable amount of time. The trick to any of these changes is that our PvE combat is in a pretty good place - people can have a lot of fun flying just about any ship, and can contribute meaningfully to queued events and basically have a blast. Therefore, any change to combat math that also affects PvE is extremely high risk - so the TRIBBLE we have to balance and tweak PvP pacing are limited to those that don't have unintended side effects.
It's not an impossible job - it just requires a lot of care and time investment. If things are broken or things are really bad gameplay, it's easy to justify stepping in and fixing something immediately. If things aren't either of the above but are still less fun or less engaging than they could be, we obviously want to fix them - it just takes more work and more time to get the fix right and minimize any external side effects of that fix.
That's a bit of a ramble, but I know you guys like insight into why we change things we choose to change and how we make the game, so hopefully it interests you/makes sense to you. Please try to stay positive and constructive in responses - I'm happy to entertain discussions and talk about things openly, but if you start flaming or posting off-topic things, it's really hard to justify responding to something like that.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
That's a bit of a ramble, but I know you guys like insight into why we change things we choose to change and how we make the game, so hopefully it interests you/makes sense to you. Please try to stay positive and constructive in responses - I'm happy to entertain discussions and talk about things openly, but if you start flaming or posting off-topic things, it's really hard to justify responding to something like that.
Thanks Hawk for your comments, I only hope you seriously consider the changes and why people changed to double tapping. Of course there's the balanced to be made not to make PVE unplayable, which is understandable.
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
hawk, please explain the reasoning behind so many developed passive heals and placates then?
even on elite the npc targets do not pose any threat. only in NWS can the overtake a group of 5....and in not one mission can they overtake a single ship.
i disagree with your notion that it is an exploit of the game. (edit: bad game play) if players can exploit the in game massive heals, so should you be able to exploit the in game damage capabilities.
seems like a one sided circular argument then right gohan?
Point is Double taps are not end all or be all which unfortunatly a lot of people think. Vape does not guarantee a 100% kill on anyone. Unless of course your running a fail build. If the Dev caters to fail builds and so forth, then I really have nothing more to say, only there is more to life than popping your umpteen cube
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Here's what will be coming to Tribble in the near future, using Beam Overload as an example:
-Having one Beam Overload buff active will prevent you from activating any other copies of Beam Overload
-Consuming a Beam Overload buff to fire a beam overload will trigger a 5 second cooldown period during which no other Beam Overload powers can be activated
-This 5 second cooldown period is not triggered if the buff just wears off due to duration/unuse, or if the buff is purged by a dispel effect.
I've added this behavior to each Tactical Bridge Officer weapon-enhancing power. This change is intended to leave normal gameplay completely untouched - if you are activating and then firing your weapon powers during gameplay as most players do, you should hopefully never see an effect from this change. If, however, you are stacking up multiple copies of a single weapon power over a 30 second period of non-combat in order to maximize one second of Burst Damage, you are the intended recipient of this change and will see a drastic decrease in the magnitude of that burst DPS spike.
This accomplishes what our category-based Global Cooldowns were always intended to enforce - that you can't use Beam Overload or High Yield Torpedo or Dispersal Pattern Beta back-to-back within a sub-5-second window. The complication before was that the Category Cooldown was triggered by giving yourself the buff from the ability, not by spending it to get its result - allowing you to wait out multiple cooldowns without consuming the buff to get one short cycle of tremendous burst. By adding a short cooldown to the consumption of these buffs, we hope to curve the abuse case without negatively affecting normal gameplay.
I hope these changes feel fair to you. Once the changes make their way to Tribble, please feel free to point out any cases where the changes may not be accomplishing their stated goals - I'm always happy to listen to any constructive feedback.
Hmm we'll I'm in a tac ship and am a tactical captain , I got 1 science console only 4 engineering consoles , I use 2neutroniums and 1 field generator to increase shield cap and only use rarely. Did my skills and rep system choices for my ship not all my ships ? Did you do same or you like to ship hop around hoping it should work for all your ships? It won't work well. Anyways the last 5 or 6 Op things needing nerf's I didn't remotely care about them at all and didn't support the whinning groups that always want nerf's !!! The key my dear friend is not putting only neutronium and field modulator with bad skill choices and bad rep choices sounds why your still dying because me and my friends in littler and lighter hulled ships don't die to Bo buff cd thing at all ? Do you have a problem with the black cloud when put on you ? If so we all kinda did as well but .... Hear it comes ..... The answer to all your problems .... Change adjust move around reps look at others ship builds on stowiki builds and here it is .... ADAPT not nerf ! Will solve all your problems once you try to do a more informative change than gear hit me up and let me know how Adapting works hope I could help you before to many more deaths.
Comments
mt tie if u dont weigh in on the truthfulness of how torpedoes do not deserve a further nerf u deserve all the hatred u get.
Seriously, this. Your escorts should just be doing this.
Your target caller should be calling that out.
Or your SCIs.
Or like..someone who is one of the other 4 guys.
I've played on teams in tourneys and lost and I suck it up and tell the other team congrats and that they just played better than us, better coordination, and they did and they deserved the win - like Division Hispania who beat my team in the recent tourney. They just played better.
Then you have the OP:
Ragey nerf thread? Check.
Deflection of topic? Check.
Insults & Accusations of cheating? Check.
Excuses for losing, blaming 1 player in a team game? Check.
Dude, chillax, I think pretty much everyone sane agrees that Torps need a major buff.
Having them get nerfed now is easily one of the silliest things I've seen this year.
Not to mention that this nerf completely ruins any point to projectile weapons officers.
For support players / healers, torpedoes are still a viable choice; but that usually means chronitons or plasma torpedoes for their utility, not the damage.
I don't quite see the need to change HY/TS, but if prebuffing multiple TS/HY is the only way to use torpedoes for damage, there is something at a deeper level that makes torpedoes useless (we all know that TT is the primary offender here).
please let us refocus the discussion on this key major flaw to the proposed changes. sorry for gettin mad but at least many see the light, torpedoes shouldnt be being penalized further.
frankly tvaro is a TORP ship, those guys using no torps on it were always the problem. torps demand timing and skill, autofiring a preloaded double tap simply did not.
SAVE THE TORPEDOES
Shield stripping used to be over the line though... a small buff to a few of the sci strip skills prehaps... but torps can be made vaible by simply changing the way they effect shields depending on the amount of shields a facing has.
Increase the bleed through as the % of shields drop... have a sliver of shields save a good chunk of the dmg... but not completely ignore as it is now either.
If people under 10% shields on a facing started taking 50% of a torps dmg... people would start running them.
It's a little more complicated than that, dude.
That one guy pretty much just threw our chemistry in the toilet.
It was more than just lack of communication.
It happens to everyone... most people just wouldn't say it in public. When I used to do the premade thing I teamed with my friends. Perhaps its just my Canadian side, I just can't imagine ever having pointed a finger at any of them when we bite it.
throw anyone under the bus lately. sheesh
like qoro said, it was more complicated than that.. but yes i shoulnt blame him... i should blame myself for bringing him... at least i learn my lesson there... when people dont care about the team they might as well be out of it...
and keeping with your checking, lets see about you...
Defend overpowered abilitie that team mate uses for team to win?double check...
say that there is not enough damage without that? triple check...
showing old games to try to support his actions? check...
tell that a group of players(escorts) are noobs? check...
but well i will not lose more time replying to you :P dotn worry about a thing... because every little thing is gonna be allright...
but i just said someone hwne i pointed fingers... i didnt say names... that is up to you guys to say because i know you guys like to say a few things...
P.S.: my guys know that i will defend them if they deserve my trust, when they loose it... they leave the circle... as simple as that
Federation :: Fleetless :: Klingon
Jorge Silva - Tac | Nayja - Sci | Jorge E. Silva - Eng
Jorge R. Silva - Tac (Romulan Fed)
Nayja K Silva - Sci | Vurg'jah - Tac
Though let's tone it down folks, before this thing gets closed. We have had at least some good discussion in this thing.
Comments in red.
Feel free to go through your own thread to find any of the things you claim.
Try facts next time.
Here are some quotes, from your own thread, that you should actually try reading even a little.
Let me know when you're ready to have a discussion that includes facts and not straw-man attacks, lies and complete nonsense.
To make this thread more valid again and moving away from e-peen stroking and chest thumping on ALL sides, i don't think anyone has been defending double, treble, multi vape taps. What i have been seeing in this thread in summary is the following:
There are things in the game which are far worse, yet those things are left unchecked?!?!?
Scramble DOFFS
Aux to Batt powered EMP bursts
etc. etc.
Nerfing the "vape tap" isn't a bad thing at all.
Doing the "nerf" in isolation without addressing the core issues of why such builds became necessary is a major issue. ResA / ResB shields being one of those points ruling out suppression damage.
Any fleet worth it's salt, knows that if they don't adapt to the current meta game, they will drop off rapidly. That being said, once the double tap disappears, don't assume that other fleets who "abuse" double taps are incapable of finding other ways of achieving the same outcome.
I'm sure the same people complaining about the double taps now will be complaining about another build soon because it moved away from the classical "I don't wanna loose my 4 dual heavy cannons up front so other builds must be borked" build.
Everybody dies in this game - No one is Godly in PvP and doesn't die.
Play Tyler Durden and you'll soon learn that. Funny how some so called top players don't want to participate and instead want to just smash pugs. Might "tarnish" their reputation if they die
(Its a challenge and an advertise in disguise to play in Tyler Durden, not a jab :P )
That's kind of part of the complaint.
This doesn't actually fix anything, does it? For those folks that are complaining about getting popped so fast...this isn't going to stop that.
C'mon, how many folks out there pop before you've even finished that 2-4s run? It's like wtf?
Yes, it's a different world in the Premade World...but this change, c'mon - it reeks of the "it's too hard" garbage that's ruining the game left, right, and center.
Cryptic does something like this...at the same time they're getting ready to "sell" what's basically a battle cloaking Moebius that can use Rom BOFFs...? Seriously?
Cryptic is doing this - after adding how many things to make this that much easier and that much more effective? Hrmmm, they made their money off of it - sales were diminishing - let's nerf it in preparation for the next thing they're going to support for a period of time.
Seriously, sometimes when I log in - it reminds me of the older brother slapping the younger brother with the younger brother's hand while saying, "Stop hitting yourself." - I'm wondering if maybe I didn't fall down at some point and incur brain damage to keep doing this...
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Well they can do what they want in their fail corvette builds, running around but dont do enough damage
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
To wanna be pvp police officer, for whom, no one gives a dam, I personally wont play TD more cos of your involvement in it, which I find is a pathetic attempt to be some infulent person in this game. Which is shame, its a good idea. Also, u shouldn't speak about excuses, because as I remember, elite disruptors are too powerful, and that's why they beat us! MoooM!
I was about to make a joke about x nooblet, but I think that would hurt his feelings. Anyways, we know each other long time.
Double shield, Dolce!
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
The TD fight club isn't about your fleets or your egos... start matches if you like the idea. Join matches if you like the idea... Leave the fleet / forum / opvp girly fighting TRIBBLE there.
Enjoy slapping at each other for awhile and that's that. If you really don't like someone that much what ever join matches when there not around or something.
Why would such hurt my feelings? I didn't exploit that bug.
Hai leia skywalker...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Double-tap is bad gameplay - period, end of story. It's a workaround for a shared cooldown that was always supposed to prevent exactly what's happening. It fixes a lot of things about this small problem - but the point that many are making (and that I agree with) is that this fix is just a drop in the moderately large bucket in the grand scheme of unwinding and overhauling combat math to make things feel fair for both aggressors and defenders, and make combat between evenly matched adversaries take a more reasonable amount of time. The trick to any of these changes is that our PvE combat is in a pretty good place - people can have a lot of fun flying just about any ship, and can contribute meaningfully to queued events and basically have a blast. Therefore, any change to combat math that also affects PvE is extremely high risk - so the TRIBBLE we have to balance and tweak PvP pacing are limited to those that don't have unintended side effects.
It's not an impossible job - it just requires a lot of care and time investment. If things are broken or things are really bad gameplay, it's easy to justify stepping in and fixing something immediately. If things aren't either of the above but are still less fun or less engaging than they could be, we obviously want to fix them - it just takes more work and more time to get the fix right and minimize any external side effects of that fix.
That's a bit of a ramble, but I know you guys like insight into why we change things we choose to change and how we make the game, so hopefully it interests you/makes sense to you. Please try to stay positive and constructive in responses - I'm happy to entertain discussions and talk about things openly, but if you start flaming or posting off-topic things, it's really hard to justify responding to something like that.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Thanks Hawk for your comments, I only hope you seriously consider the changes and why people changed to double tapping. Of course there's the balanced to be made not to make PVE unplayable, which is understandable.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
even on elite the npc targets do not pose any threat. only in NWS can the overtake a group of 5....and in not one mission can they overtake a single ship.
i disagree with your notion that it is an exploit of the game. (edit: bad game play) if players can exploit the in game massive heals, so should you be able to exploit the in game damage capabilities.
have fun kill bad guys
-thrusters on full-
a properly spec'd engineer an a defensive minded ship cannot be taken out by 1 "vaper"
is this not just the argument in reverse?
A properly speced Sci in a recluse or Temp wells also cannot be taken out by a vaper alone.
In fact the vaper may die from FBP with added stacked exotic damage and resist debuffs doffs
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
seems like a one sided circular argument then right gohan?
Point is Double taps are not end all or be all which unfortunatly a lot of people think. Vape does not guarantee a 100% kill on anyone. Unless of course your running a fail build. If the Dev caters to fail builds and so forth, then I really have nothing more to say, only there is more to life than popping your umpteen cube
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)