I understand the goal, but you're leaving the root cause that pushed builds to spike extremes in the first place in tact.
10s Tac Team shield distrobution.
10s Tac Team debuff cleanse.
RSP that can now have a DOFF for 20+ seconds
Elite Fleet Shields
Omega T4 Rep Shield Regen
+DEF bonus inflation from Embassy and standard Rom BOFFs
All of this is on top of what we already had, which is cross healing, stacked buffs, no healing diminishing returns.
The spike builds you are looking at were designed specifically to somehow find a way to kill a target in the extremely short 5s kill windows that we now have in game.
So please, reduce some of the healing passives, resist passives, reduce TT's duration.
In the past year there have been 4 successful tournaments with 60 to 100 players or more taking part.
There is no reason that the game should be so warped at the high end that we have to force artificial rules to end matches at the 45 minute mark, because there is a very good chance that any given match can go for 2 hours.
120 minutes / 15 kills = 8 minute TTK.
Is 8 minutes a reasonable TTK?
100% not the problem I was trying to address, which is this one specific piece of game-knowledge increasing someone's 5sec window burst damage by 300%.
Edit to add:
That's not to say I disagree with everything you posted - it's just largely off-topic for this particular post.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Some combination of mechanical skill and game knowledge I guess...
If this one change drastically changes average time-to-kill in PvP, that means a.) it was super broken and b.) the performance delta between players with the knowledge of this particular trick and players without that knowledge was way too high. As always, we'll monitor the state of the game and make changes if they're necessary. If people are invincible now, we'll at least have a solid base to work from for combat pacing. However, I don't anticipate this change causing much of a difference at all outside of bleeding-edge, very high-knowledge players - and they will always adapt to use their high-knowledge to their competitive advantage.
Any chance of making weapons like the elite fleet disruptors available on the fed side as well but a phaser version and give the phaser variant to the klingons?
What i'm trying to get at is let each side have the same Elite weapon procs:
Shield heal disruptors for Klingons
Resistance debuff phasers for Federation.
That would be a good balance pass as well. Need weapons fed side to counter the massive fleet shield resistances as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz9yp-Rzeu8
Again 1,5 secs to die...
and i changed my build... instead of the usual 1 neutronium + 2 sif and 4 emitter arrays, i was running 3 neutroniums + 4 field gens... basicly 45% resist+19k shields... at 37% i was able to use aux to dampners with the doff resistence to 49% and someone gave me tss... still died...
and about the nuc... they were nucking randomly we could never know who the target was until snakie aka MT decloaked... so there you go....
for those that defend that double tap is not overpowered good luck playing this game im off until this is corrected...
5 secs downtime on the dual beam banks(all of them) after the use of 1 beam overload is the best solution in order for all the doffs and TRIBBLE that is out there doesnt have to be nerfer/deleted or whatever...
[irony mod on]
good job devs good job...
[irony mod off]
It wouldn't have made a difference... Teamwork is hax. Anyone that is durp can see you were SNB'd and you had a ST and didn't clear it. Also you hit aux2id and went for a eng team. You should have went to ST then aux2id. But hey what do I know... I can't even believe you posted that video as proof it's hax **** when it was just 1 that hit you anyway.
100% not the problem I was trying to address, which is this one specific piece of game-knowledge increasing someone's 5sec window burst damage by 300%.
Yes, and I'm trying to bring to your attention the fact that all we have is a 5s window.
Not many actually liked the build design and changes we had to make to get these beam overloads into our builds.
It required a lot of pushing to even make it work effectively.
This is because, and this is not hyperbole, 4x DHCs + APA + APO 3 etc., will literally not kill targets on a coordinated team.
When 4x DHCs is barely "pressure damage", something in the system has gone fundamentally wrong.
Torpedoes? They are like removing a weapon slot from your ship 90% of the time or worse due to how they function with current shield mechanics, their slow flight speeds, they are mechanically an unusable option most of the time in coordinated pvp matches.
We are there now, and its good that you're looking to outliers like double taps.
Please look at the healing and resistance outliers and that pushed us here.
We're exasperated on spike options now to score kills in the 5s window we have and I think it is critical that you look at those windows and what has caused them.
100% not the problem I was trying to address, which is this one specific piece of game-knowledge increasing someone's 5sec window burst damage by 300%.
I believe the point was there are far more ways to avoid, resist, repair damage than spike damage and spike damage is needed to kill now. So, why "fix" spike damage before looking at the reason so many are pushing that envelope.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Here's what will be coming to Tribble in the near future, using Beam Overload as an example:
-Having one Beam Overload buff active will prevent you from activating any other copies of Beam Overload
-Consuming a Beam Overload buff to fire a beam overload will trigger a 5 second cooldown period during which no other Beam Overload powers can be activated
-This 5 second cooldown period is not triggered if the buff just wears off due to duration/unuse, or if the buff is purged by a dispel effect.
I've added this behavior to each Tactical Bridge Officer weapon-enhancing power. This change is intended to leave normal gameplay completely untouched - if you are activating and then firing your weapon powers during gameplay as most players do, you should hopefully never see an effect from this change. If, however, you are stacking up multiple copies of a single weapon power over a 30 second period of non-combat in order to maximize one second of Burst Damage, you are the intended recipient of this change and will see a drastic decrease in the magnitude of that burst DPS spike.
This accomplishes what our category-based Global Cooldowns were always intended to enforce - that you can't use Beam Overload or High Yield Torpedo or Dispersal Pattern Beta back-to-back within a sub-5-second window. The complication before was that the Category Cooldown was triggered by giving yourself the buff from the ability, not by spending it to get its result - allowing you to wait out multiple cooldowns without consuming the buff to get one short cycle of tremendous burst. By adding a short cooldown to the consumption of these buffs, we hope to curve the abuse case without negatively affecting normal gameplay.
I hope these changes feel fair to you. Once the changes make their way to Tribble, please feel free to point out any cases where the changes may not be accomplishing their stated goals - I'm always happy to listen to any constructive feedback.
while i welcome this change its not so nice when u are so quick to nerf stuff but slow to actually fix broken stuff..what am i talking..slow is even pushing the description
up till now pet frigate cannons using AI have not been fixed ..they still cant almost never use their cannons...
instead of solving this issue by even the most temp of fixes..ie ..put a single cannon on them instead and make is [acc]x3 to match the firepower u do nothing but that stars system ...
i am sorry but as an avid kdf player who still have some measure of faith in you i ask you to fix that
So does this mean that if we find ourselves in that 5 sec window with one of our weapon types buffed that we can't fire that weapon type at all till the 5 sec window expires?
It wouldn't have made a difference... Teamwork is hax. Anyone that is durp can see you were SNB'd and you had a ST and didn't clear it. Also you hit aux2id and went for a eng team. You should have went to ST then aux2id. But hey what do I know... I can't even believe you posted that video as proof it's hax **** when it was just 1 that hit you anyway.
Not enough thinking fighters willing to overcome the tactics of thier opponents first before crying foul that "its not right!!!!!"????
The power creep on healing and damage has finall.hit the TRIBBLE-fan and the newer PvPers cant handle it anymore than the old school dislike it leading to a period of Dark Ages for pvp as almost evrything is questioned and complained about since its easier to whine like a bleeding clam than learn to play????
Keep in mind this comes from a PvPer who has openly been called a crappy player yet has never once whined about it ingame or in the forums rather I just kept trying to get better and play the game than let my ego lead me down the darker path of being a whiner.
So does this mean that if we find ourselves in that 5 sec window with one of our weapon types buffed that we can't fire that weapon type at all till the 5 sec window expires?
There's no way to be in the 5 second window with the weapon buff up, since there's no way to get more than one stack of the buff at a time. Hypothetically though, no, there would be nothing stopping you from firing your weapon (and I would try to avoid any solution to a problem that would remove something as fundamental as your ability to use one of your weapons)
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
I believe the point was there are far more ways to avoid, resist, repair damage than spike damage and spike damage is needed to kill now. So, why "fix" spike damage before looking at the reason so many are pushing that envelope.
Basically this.
Its easy for them to fix people getting killed, it makes pretty much everyone happy because no one likes to die.
That's why we see complaint threads about anything that is tactical and anything that is damage.
How much do we see about ballooned resistances and heals?
That's what led to my other thread, someone has to die.
maybe increase the time that takes to the fleet shields resistince to stack, make sure that a full stack of resistence takes over 10seconds of constant incoming damage, that should increase the window for killings.
I understand the goal, but you're leaving the root cause that pushed builds to spike extremes in the first place in tact.
10s Tac Team shield distrobution.
10s Tac Team debuff cleanse.
RSP that can now have a DOFF for 20+ seconds
Elite Fleet Shields
Omega T4 Rep Shield Regen
+DEF bonus inflation from Embassy and standard Rom BOFFs
All of this is on top of what we already had, which is cross healing, stacked buffs, no healing diminishing returns.
The spike builds you are looking at were designed specifically to somehow find a way to kill a target in the extremely short 5s kill windows that we now have in game.
So please, reduce some of the healing passives, resist passives, reduce TT's duration.
In the past year there have been 4 successful tournaments with 60 to 100 players or more taking part.
There is no reason that the game should be so warped at the high end that we have to force artificial rules to end matches at the 45 minute mark, because there is a very good chance that any given match can go for 2 hours.
120 minutes / 15 kills = 8 minute TTK.
Is 8 minutes a reasonable TTK?
you talking is like you dont understand the game... all you want is your op double tap build...
the heals were the same... the resist were the same... and yet there were tons of matches that had 15 kills or more... in a space of 15/30/45 mins... some didnt even took that long...
team coordinations + subnuc and alphas and even without alphas is possible to make a kill... and you know that...
stop defending the double tap because its completly overpowered... more than any heals... and its possible and more tham possible to get kills without double tap... but perhaps you forgot how to get kill without double tap... i dont know just saying... if me and my team can do it... and at least a couple of teams were able to do it on that tourny everyone will be able to do it...
so basicly you only need 2 tacs 2 scis... and 1 engi or sci outsider and you are more than able to do it...
PS: even on NoBS#4 the only match were we tryed double tap was on the final... before the final our build didnt have double tap... just pure rapid fire with 1 beam overload on bugship on my case and full cannons on zelda bugship... so its possible
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Federation :: Fleetless :: Klingon Jorge Silva - Tac | Nayja - Sci | Jorge E. Silva - Eng Jorge R. Silva - Tac (Romulan Fed) Nayja K Silva - Sci | Vurg'jah - Tac
stop defending the double tap because its completly overpowered...
If you had stopped for even a moment in your rager post, you'd see that not once did I say he shouldn't make changes to BO or tone down spike and that I'd like for him to look at all of the ballooned mitigation we have now.
Does this also mean that you will not be able to stack a rapid fire with a Beam Overload or High yield with rapids etc etc?
i have reasons to believe that are only the same type of buffs... spread 1 and spread 2 and 3
CRF 1 with 2 and 3 etc etc... not diferent buffs like crf and beam overload... those you can use them they are separated buffs
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Federation :: Fleetless :: Klingon Jorge Silva - Tac | Nayja - Sci | Jorge E. Silva - Eng Jorge R. Silva - Tac (Romulan Fed) Nayja K Silva - Sci | Vurg'jah - Tac
Just a comment from a player who made a Double tab build, there are plenty of players that can counter double taps. There are ships that myself and 2 others were hammering and just can not kill. The double tap is not a magic kill all button. Engineering Team, Tac Team, EptS, Sub Nuc, RSP, Jam/Scramble Targeting Sensors and Polarize Hull/APO/Evasive Maneuvers are all things that counter a double tap in one fashion or another. Also, the double tap is not instantaneous, there are a few seconds between the shots.
Also, double taps can also be done by engineers with Nadion Inversion and I got nuked by Assault Cruiser Retrofits that pop me as I'm trying to run with a double tap.
There are other freaky things that bug me, people that magically instantaneously use the exact counter to your abilities, ships that track and hunt you while cloaked (as in 15km out turn towards me and start cahsing me and shooting at me) or the fact that the Elachi Immunity is not shared and thus a whole team using Elachi weapons (like entire groups of BFAW boats using Elachi beams) are devastating.
Hi, my name is: Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
One last question. Will this prevent us from using Beam Overload followed immediately by Fire at will or High Yield Torpedo followed immediately by Torp Spread?
How about just prevent BO double stack, but let us continue to double stack Torpedo high yield and spread. Its already hard enough to get kills with torps as it is right now and the only way I've been able to get kills with them is by double tapping them after a bo. Or if it is nerfed lets look at a flat base damage increase to torpedos and/or lowering their cooldown.Nerfing BO and torpedo double tap will make torpedos extinct in pvp otherwise
100% not the problem I was trying to address, which is this one specific piece of game-knowledge increasing someone's 5sec window burst damage by 300%.
Edit to add:
That's not to say I disagree with everything you posted - it's just largely off-topic for this particular post.
I disagree with this. You have to ask yourself why are some of us advocating Vape builds now? It's not for trolling Kerrat but simply how the meta game has changed and how we have adapted to the high ship resists.
These new changes coming onto Tribble concerns me and will make matches much longer for the wrong reasons.
you also mentioned how it was '100% not the problem I was trying to address, which is this one specific piece of game-knowledge increasing someone's 5sec window burst damage by 300%.'
How did one get to that point and why did they get to that point is important. Just because we learnt how to kill someone more effectively either individually or as a collective, does not merit a nerf because some new person couldn't take or rather understand why the game has changed this way.
In order to get to a certain point of skill or experiance, we had many hours of flying time, testing, dying and winning. Most of us didn't get handed vape builds or guided into how to play. We learnt the vast majority ourselves and extensive experimenting. I used to fly a JHAS and Fleet Ha feh, I didn' always use spike damage builds.
Now this 5 sec window you say to 'kill' someone, is not really 5 secs, it takes precision, timing, patience. The window is more 95 secs with waiting on buffs to cd and assuming no external factors come into play, a sudden change of direction, buff or debuff can throw off your timing and you have to wait another 95 secs or worse die.
Generally people who die by the hands of one Vaper, deserve to die by them. If you have a decent build and the all important Tac team, you should not die to one vaper. I have done much testing on this with my sci ships and you should not die by one vaper, unless of course external forces come into play, such as Subnukes, sensor scan, e.t.c.
In summary the changes are bad in my oppinion because you have not even given greater ackowledgment to the underlining crux to why Vape builds have made a resurgence from the old days and in fact decided to nerf this without balancing the resist side.
This change will undoubtly nerf pure kinetic torp builds as well.
My final comment is this:
The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
The double tap is a probleme , its reealy not fair ppl cant do nmothing agaist it and they die in like 1 second, and if u think the match will be more longer ur not right , all depend of team coordination , but by the way i like thoose long match i did
[System] Link has been on active duty for 415 days, 23 hours, 9 minutes, 16 seconds.
[System] Zelda has been on active duty for 126 days, 11 hours, 51 minutes, 48 seconds.
The double tap is a probleme , its reealy not fair ppl cant do nmothing agaist it and they die in like 1 second, and if u think the match will be more longer ur not right , all depend of team coordination , but by the way i like thoose long match i did
Hey Zelda,
well you yourself have said you have adapted to doubl taps and using Fleet Neutroniums and a few other items.
Your not always a guaranteed kill, only when others are helping me to disable you and debuff you.
This comes to my point, Double tapping is not 'the end all be all'. Far from it, it can be fought against and it certainly is not invincible. Look at the no BS tourney as a prime example, everyone though vapers would own the game and Jorge himself said with team coordination and a decent setup you can overcome them. There were certainly imaginative and creative ways to defeat the vape setup.
So everyone says BO is not fair, cus i die in 1 sec e.t.c. What about the 50s Grav pulse or the broken Emp or the warp plasma graphics glitch? They all equally bad, making you an easy target.
BO is not an I win button and I have seen several epic Fail builds trying to use it. You can give anyone a decent build and a JHAS but it takes experiance and skill to fly it. Look at so many Fail bugs recently, there is your evidence.
It is defendable Double tapping, whether by yourself or team.
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
The double tap is a probleme , its reealy not fair ppl cant do nmothing agaist it and they die in like 1 second, and if u think the match will be more longer ur not right , all depend of team coordination , but by the way i like thoose long match i did
I always enjoyed the long matches we used to have, the duels in the days. But when your banging your head against a a zombie build, people have to adapt.
I am not saying No to BO fix in some form, but to neglect the reasoning why builds have moved to this level is ignornace to say the least and responding to the people who are ill equiped to fly vape builds nor defend against it. Putting it blunty, responding to the QQ.
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Anyone that thinks double tap vape builds are easy mode, should try it out. It takes a lot of practice, adjusting, and timing.
Well, gohan already said it.
That's exactly why not everyone is flying them.
It's OK, we'll keep finding ways to kill people in under 5s until everything gets nerfed or the devs finally realize there is an issue with the kill windows we have.
Anyone that thinks double tap vape builds are easy mode, should try it out. It takes a lot of practice, adjusting, and timing.
I think people think their god when they vape someone whose shields are gone from borg shield neutralising, while getting their dalies in Kerrat, and those people who get killed cry foul on these forums.
You can see the issue there. Even Fail Vape builds will have some success due to the Pre-occupation to farming, but come PVP they will be blown away.
To be good at Vaping is more than just the build, obviously having a fail build wont help with your omega torps and Kinetic beam lol. But seriously, it takes alot of practice, timing and precision. You have to watch your enemies buffs and time it just when their apo or tt finishes, be ready to switch if they suddenly jump or go evasive, risking your death or decide to fight another day.
I emplore syou to try it out on my Fully equipeed SCI Free of charge to prove my point, i especially welcome fail builds who think they have found the next best thing since sliced bread
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Comments
I know I have been in hour fights in matches where neither team had more then 1 main healer and at least 2 pure DPS builds each. lol
100% not the problem I was trying to address, which is this one specific piece of game-knowledge increasing someone's 5sec window burst damage by 300%.
Edit to add:
That's not to say I disagree with everything you posted - it's just largely off-topic for this particular post.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Any chance of making weapons like the elite fleet disruptors available on the fed side as well but a phaser version and give the phaser variant to the klingons?
What i'm trying to get at is let each side have the same Elite weapon procs:
Shield heal disruptors for Klingons
Resistance debuff phasers for Federation.
That would be a good balance pass as well. Need weapons fed side to counter the massive fleet shield resistances as well.
It wouldn't have made a difference... Teamwork is hax. Anyone that is durp can see you were SNB'd and you had a ST and didn't clear it. Also you hit aux2id and went for a eng team. You should have went to ST then aux2id. But hey what do I know... I can't even believe you posted that video as proof it's hax **** when it was just 1 that hit you anyway.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, and I'm trying to bring to your attention the fact that all we have is a 5s window.
Not many actually liked the build design and changes we had to make to get these beam overloads into our builds.
It required a lot of pushing to even make it work effectively.
This is because, and this is not hyperbole, 4x DHCs + APA + APO 3 etc., will literally not kill targets on a coordinated team.
When 4x DHCs is barely "pressure damage", something in the system has gone fundamentally wrong.
Torpedoes? They are like removing a weapon slot from your ship 90% of the time or worse due to how they function with current shield mechanics, their slow flight speeds, they are mechanically an unusable option most of the time in coordinated pvp matches.
We are there now, and its good that you're looking to outliers like double taps.
Please look at the healing and resistance outliers and that pushed us here.
We're exasperated on spike options now to score kills in the 5s window we have and I think it is critical that you look at those windows and what has caused them.
I believe the point was there are far more ways to avoid, resist, repair damage than spike damage and spike damage is needed to kill now. So, why "fix" spike damage before looking at the reason so many are pushing that envelope.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
while i welcome this change its not so nice when u are so quick to nerf stuff but slow to actually fix broken stuff..what am i talking..slow is even pushing the description
up till now pet frigate cannons using AI have not been fixed ..they still cant almost never use their cannons...
instead of solving this issue by even the most temp of fixes..ie ..put a single cannon on them instead and make is [acc]x3 to match the firepower u do nothing but that stars system ...
i am sorry but as an avid kdf player who still have some measure of faith in you i ask you to fix that
Not enough thinking fighters willing to overcome the tactics of thier opponents first before crying foul that "its not right!!!!!"????
The power creep on healing and damage has finall.hit the TRIBBLE-fan and the newer PvPers cant handle it anymore than the old school dislike it leading to a period of Dark Ages for pvp as almost evrything is questioned and complained about since its easier to whine like a bleeding clam than learn to play????
Keep in mind this comes from a PvPer who has openly been called a crappy player yet has never once whined about it ingame or in the forums rather I just kept trying to get better and play the game than let my ego lead me down the darker path of being a whiner.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~BranFlakes
R.I.P
There's no way to be in the 5 second window with the weapon buff up, since there's no way to get more than one stack of the buff at a time. Hypothetically though, no, there would be nothing stopping you from firing your weapon (and I would try to avoid any solution to a problem that would remove something as fundamental as your ability to use one of your weapons)
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Basically this.
Its easy for them to fix people getting killed, it makes pretty much everyone happy because no one likes to die.
That's why we see complaint threads about anything that is tactical and anything that is damage.
How much do we see about ballooned resistances and heals?
That's what led to my other thread, someone has to die.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
you talking is like you dont understand the game... all you want is your op double tap build...
we had NoBS#3... werent there kills?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An5TbuYwGQhAdG9lX2llbnFkYU1wVERhTDllaDZIYXc#gid=0
i guess there were... even without double tap...
the heals were the same... the resist were the same... and yet there were tons of matches that had 15 kills or more... in a space of 15/30/45 mins... some didnt even took that long...
team coordinations + subnuc and alphas and even without alphas is possible to make a kill... and you know that...
stop defending the double tap because its completly overpowered... more than any heals... and its possible and more tham possible to get kills without double tap... but perhaps you forgot how to get kill without double tap... i dont know just saying... if me and my team can do it... and at least a couple of teams were able to do it on that tourny everyone will be able to do it...
so basicly you only need 2 tacs 2 scis... and 1 engi or sci outsider and you are more than able to do it...
PS: even on NoBS#4 the only match were we tryed double tap was on the final... before the final our build didnt have double tap... just pure rapid fire with 1 beam overload on bugship on my case and full cannons on zelda bugship... so its possible
Federation :: Fleetless :: Klingon
Jorge Silva - Tac | Nayja - Sci | Jorge E. Silva - Eng
Jorge R. Silva - Tac (Romulan Fed)
Nayja K Silva - Sci | Vurg'jah - Tac
If you had stopped for even a moment in your rager post, you'd see that not once did I say he shouldn't make changes to BO or tone down spike and that I'd like for him to look at all of the ballooned mitigation we have now.
i have reasons to believe that are only the same type of buffs... spread 1 and spread 2 and 3
CRF 1 with 2 and 3 etc etc... not diferent buffs like crf and beam overload... those you can use them they are separated buffs
Federation :: Fleetless :: Klingon
Jorge Silva - Tac | Nayja - Sci | Jorge E. Silva - Eng
Jorge R. Silva - Tac (Romulan Fed)
Nayja K Silva - Sci | Vurg'jah - Tac
Also, double taps can also be done by engineers with Nadion Inversion and I got nuked by Assault Cruiser Retrofits that pop me as I'm trying to run with a double tap.
There are other freaky things that bug me, people that magically instantaneously use the exact counter to your abilities, ships that track and hunt you while cloaked (as in 15km out turn towards me and start cahsing me and shooting at me) or the fact that the Elachi Immunity is not shared and thus a whole team using Elachi weapons (like entire groups of BFAW boats using Elachi beams) are devastating.
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
No, there will be no change to current behavior in regards to this question. You can still use BO and CRF at the same time, for instance.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
I disagree with this. You have to ask yourself why are some of us advocating Vape builds now? It's not for trolling Kerrat but simply how the meta game has changed and how we have adapted to the high ship resists.
These new changes coming onto Tribble concerns me and will make matches much longer for the wrong reasons.
you also mentioned how it was '100% not the problem I was trying to address, which is this one specific piece of game-knowledge increasing someone's 5sec window burst damage by 300%.'
How did one get to that point and why did they get to that point is important. Just because we learnt how to kill someone more effectively either individually or as a collective, does not merit a nerf because some new person couldn't take or rather understand why the game has changed this way.
In order to get to a certain point of skill or experiance, we had many hours of flying time, testing, dying and winning. Most of us didn't get handed vape builds or guided into how to play. We learnt the vast majority ourselves and extensive experimenting. I used to fly a JHAS and Fleet Ha feh, I didn' always use spike damage builds.
Now this 5 sec window you say to 'kill' someone, is not really 5 secs, it takes precision, timing, patience. The window is more 95 secs with waiting on buffs to cd and assuming no external factors come into play, a sudden change of direction, buff or debuff can throw off your timing and you have to wait another 95 secs or worse die.
Generally people who die by the hands of one Vaper, deserve to die by them. If you have a decent build and the all important Tac team, you should not die to one vaper. I have done much testing on this with my sci ships and you should not die by one vaper, unless of course external forces come into play, such as Subnukes, sensor scan, e.t.c.
In summary the changes are bad in my oppinion because you have not even given greater ackowledgment to the underlining crux to why Vape builds have made a resurgence from the old days and in fact decided to nerf this without balancing the resist side.
This change will undoubtly nerf pure kinetic torp builds as well.
My final comment is this:
The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
[System] Zelda has been on active duty for 126 days, 11 hours, 51 minutes, 48 seconds.
French Canadian
Id say nerf omega + rapid fire stack, can devs perhaps look at it? Its bugged and doulbles Rapid fire dmg somehow.
Hey Zelda,
well you yourself have said you have adapted to doubl taps and using Fleet Neutroniums and a few other items.
Your not always a guaranteed kill, only when others are helping me to disable you and debuff you.
This comes to my point, Double tapping is not 'the end all be all'. Far from it, it can be fought against and it certainly is not invincible. Look at the no BS tourney as a prime example, everyone though vapers would own the game and Jorge himself said with team coordination and a decent setup you can overcome them. There were certainly imaginative and creative ways to defeat the vape setup.
So everyone says BO is not fair, cus i die in 1 sec e.t.c. What about the 50s Grav pulse or the broken Emp or the warp plasma graphics glitch? They all equally bad, making you an easy target.
BO is not an I win button and I have seen several epic Fail builds trying to use it. You can give anyone a decent build and a JHAS but it takes experiance and skill to fly it. Look at so many Fail bugs recently, there is your evidence.
It is defendable Double tapping, whether by yourself or team.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
I always enjoyed the long matches we used to have, the duels in the days. But when your banging your head against a a zombie build, people have to adapt.
I am not saying No to BO fix in some form, but to neglect the reasoning why builds have moved to this level is ignornace to say the least and responding to the people who are ill equiped to fly vape builds nor defend against it. Putting it blunty, responding to the QQ.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Well, gohan already said it.
That's exactly why not everyone is flying them.
It's OK, we'll keep finding ways to kill people in under 5s until everything gets nerfed or the devs finally realize there is an issue with the kill windows we have.
I think people think their god when they vape someone whose shields are gone from borg shield neutralising, while getting their dalies in Kerrat, and those people who get killed cry foul on these forums.
You can see the issue there. Even Fail Vape builds will have some success due to the Pre-occupation to farming, but come PVP they will be blown away.
To be good at Vaping is more than just the build, obviously having a fail build wont help with your omega torps and Kinetic beam lol. But seriously, it takes alot of practice, timing and precision. You have to watch your enemies buffs and time it just when their apo or tt finishes, be ready to switch if they suddenly jump or go evasive, risking your death or decide to fight another day.
I emplore syou to try it out on my Fully equipeed SCI Free of charge to prove my point, i especially welcome fail builds who think they have found the next best thing since sliced bread
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)