Double-tap is bad gameplay - period, end of story. It's a workaround for a shared cooldown that was always supposed to prevent exactly what's happening.
With regards to your disagreement, I evaluate good or bad gameplay on two axes: Is this "fun", and does it feel "fair"? Both axes are highly subjective, so of course it's possible that I may gauge something to be a problem on both axes and you may find it fine on both, but it's my job to be as objective as possible and consider the entire spectrum of our playerbase when making such evaluations.
you and i think alike, and have the same concerns. im glad balance is in your capable hands. the initial proposal of EPt skills having an uptime gap had me worried, but ive like everything you have said and implemented since then. thanks for interacting with us, we really just want the game the best it can be too!
It fixes a lot of things about this small problem - but the point that many are making (and that I agree with) is that this fix is just a drop in the moderately large bucket in the grand scheme of unwinding and overhauling combat math to make things feel fair for both aggressors and defenders, and make combat between evenly matched adversaries take a more reasonable amount of time. The trick to any of these changes is that our PvE combat is in a pretty good place - people can have a lot of fun flying just about any ship, and can contribute meaningfully to queued events and basically have a blast. Therefore, any change to combat math that also affects PvE is extremely high risk - so the TRIBBLE we have to balance and tweak PvP pacing are limited to those that don't have unintended side effects.
It's not an impossible job - it just requires a lot of care and time investment. If things are broken or things are really bad gameplay, it's easy to justify stepping in and fixing something immediately. If things aren't either of the above but are still less fun or less engaging than they could be, we obviously want to fix them - it just takes more work and more time to get the fix right and minimize any external side effects of that fix.
That's a bit of a ramble, but I know you guys like insight into why we change things we choose to change and how we make the game, so hopefully it interests you/makes sense to you. Please try to stay positive and constructive in responses - I'm happy to entertain discussions and talk about things openly, but if you start flaming or posting off-topic things, it's really hard to justify responding to something like that.
We don't cater to any build - we just want to set up good, basic groundrules for combat that are fair and fun for all. Dying in 3 seconds isn't fun. Dying only after 30 minutes is also not fun. There's a middle ground - we've got to get there. It's really that simple.
pve is always a concern, especially with the average pve'er skill level. the bar cant be set above a certain level though. becase pve'ers quite literally dont know how to use more then 10% of their ships potential, wile good pvpers are operating at about 80% and above. i dont want pve'ers mad at aus, and the community divided, so im always thinking of wayt to help pvp wile minimally effecting pve.
on the defensive end, this is a list of minimally invasive changes that shouldn't hurt pve'ers, or pug pvp much, wile directly targeting premade high level play
-5 second long duration of TT
-RSP clearable by things like tach beam and CPB
-those dead shield strip skills lowering shield res as their primary function
-removing the resistance buff from ES, possibly reducing the duration or ES to 15 seconds
-changing all instant heals to heals over time
these changes would primarily lower the effectiveness of team healing, more so then a persons personal self heal potential. i find i very rarely even need TT anymore i have resistance and elusiveness stacked so high now. 5 second TT would be more of an emergency death preventer then a whole alpha strike nullify. i honestly dont think this would effect pve much, i cant remember the last time i had to use TT in pve. TT is for killing alphas, npcs dont, and cant alpha. they can spike pretty hard now and then, but no super high sustained over time damage is present, aside from being the target of a tac cube or gate.
RSP has always been to easy of an out, with only 1 counter, snb. abandoned due to uselessness thanks to the skill tree change, shield strip skills could be repurposed to be a counter, thus increasing premade team offense in the face of overwhelming premade team defense, without resorting to nuk stacking and more weapons spike. no npc has CPB, and only some sci ships npc have tach beam, pve is again unaffected.
ES is a pvp team skill. only in NWS is it used in pve. and i see someone new beat that like every day now, so...
ET and AtS and EPtS healing over 5 to 7 seconds would not reduce total healing, but like spike damage being what kills, spike healing is what saves. npcs deal damage so gradually that again, not much of an effect for them ether.
Hawk, thanks for not only looking into this (and other things that we've thrown at you), but continuing to post in what you guys can only feel is an overly hostile environment (which, to be honest... it really is a lot of times :P).
The discussion regarding needing the BO double tap to kill people has been posted ad nasuem, what do you feel that we should use as a counter to it?
As it stands, the only way to really get a kill in premade v premade PvP is to time SNBs and crazy burst damage like with a double tap BO (due to crazy high resists and healing).
Might I suggest that when this Double Tap fix hits Tribble/Live, another fix (buff or nerf) is implemented along with it so that matches don't go on forever? Perhaps a buff to some Science abilities or the -ShieldResistance you spoke of elsewhere?
As it stands, the only way to really get a kill in premade v premade PvP is to time SNBs and crazy burst damage like with a double tap BO (due to crazy high resists and healing).
Nah, most teams didn't use double tap setups to get kills.
Hawk, thank you so much for your hard work and thought on all of this. I, for one, am optimistic that we're on the right track to making PvP more enjoyable for everyone.
-those dead shield strip skills lowering shield res as their primary function
RSP has always been to easy of an out, with only 1 counter, snb. abandoned due to uselessness thanks to the skill tree change, shield strip skills could be repurposed to be a counter, thus increasing premade team offense in the face of overwhelming premade team defense, without resorting to nuk stacking and more weapons spike. no npc has CPB, and only some sci ships npc have tach beam, pve is again unaffected.
+1 to all the above. If Tachyon Beam in particular were repurposed as an anti-shield-healing skill, I can see PvP benefiting considerably. Because Tachyon Beam is a limited-arc skill that is broken the second the target leaves that arc, it can be avoided through player skill. Whether it would work by reducing shield resistance or by negating the efficacy of shield heals, I think it might help many of the cross-healing problems we're seeing.
Getting rid of insta-heals would go a long way to fixing things, I never understood how beaming a crew of engineers to a ship would instantly heal the ship...unless you beam their matter right into the hull
Aux2SIF should be a heal per say, it should buff your SIF for a short duration giving you resistance and more hit points, but unless your passive heal catches up, you loose the temp hit point buff. Sort of like how the Nukara T5 can work with Aux Batteries, providing resistance and temp hit points while your Aux is high. HE...since when do cleanses heal, maybe give it the same kind of an effect as Aux2SIF as described above (reinforcing SIF), but with the cleanse. And I never understood the concept behind TSS, where are you transferring the shield strength from? Maybe make it a form of Tac Team, but without the other benefits.
In short:
Engineering Team>>Make it like HE now, no cleanse but with fix offline systems
Aux2SIF>>Adds temp hit points and resistance while power is active.
HE>>Adds temp hit points and cleanses.
TSS>>Like Tac Team, but without offensive benefits, maybe a shield resist
While we are at it, Tac Team, add a little longer duration and Sci Team, Cleanse, Shield Resist with Shield Heal over time.
I'm stuck on Miracle Work, I mean the power makes sense in canon, but not in real life, it should be as good as it is, but there is no logic behind it.
Hi, my name is: Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Nah, most teams didn't use double tap setups to get kills.
Maybe?
idk, I stay far away from Tac when it comes to actual premade matches. But I guess my point is that concentrated and high Burst is the only way to land a kill - give someone 2 seconds of breathing room and they're already back up to like 50%.
Part of that is player skill (healers jumping on with TSS/HE/A2SIF/xTeam quickly), part of that is all of the passive healing and mega high resists that are granted.
Nah, most teams didn't use double tap setups to get kills.
No you just use 3 DPS ships. :rolleyes:
The point isn't the double tap in premades... but the need for more then one super spike build in general. (yes double tap isn't the only massive spike option).
Premade Vs Preamade... yes Nuke is needed (you can even score kills with out the nukes but its hard and depending on the other teams make up perhaps impossible)...
We all know how it works right now Nuke + lots of damage. In some cases... Nuke Lots of damage Nuke Spike.... and 50/50.
At this point I think we are talking about more then the double tap.
bah you're rigth thats what happens when you fast read every thing and you see lots of people basicly saying nothing....so i'm sorry... , all i want is that this game is fair and fun to play...
but the part about the escorts i keep it because its related to the post you did right before mine... xD
Well, I appreciate you taking the time to go back and take a second look and also for the apology.
So, apology accepted. No hard feelings from me, and I hope to have good matches against you in the future.
Reputation-based defensive and offensive abilities are individually within acceptable power limits, but ultimately the systems scale too well in that you don't have to give anything up to equip many, many passive powers. Ultimately I think this system makes more sense to move towards a deck-building system (e.g., you have 8 slots for Rep powers and can slot any 8 powers you've unlocked), but that'd be a huge system overhaul and would understandably upset players who already have access to more than 8 rep powers. We could also do something like make all the Rep powers much more potent, but limit you to 2 or 3 each in Space and Ground, plus 1 tier 5 active power, or something like that. This is all just me thinking out loud - there are no plans to change the reputation powers at this time.
Now this idea of a decking system is just genius. Allows balance through saturation. Balanced through limitation but still giving more content and variability. Also allows for money makin in way of Rep system retrait token
Item powers like Fleet Shields or Fleet Weapons are much less of a problem, systemically - you have to choose an item to slot, and in so doing, you give necessarily give up on all other choices. The problem, then, is that there are not enough legitimate options for those slots (especially shields and fleet weapons) that perform on an equal footing. This is a mechanical balance problem - if we made Elite Fleet Phasers into a force multiplier rather than a selfish buff, for instance, inequalities between KDF and SF fleet weapons would disappear.
Now your dropping hints that you have been listening (More watching really) :P
Force multiplier bonus in way of team shield heal / resistance equal and opposite to the elite disruptors or force multiplier in giving the same debuff as KDF elite disruptor weapons?
With regards to your disagreement, I evaluate good or bad gameplay on two axes: Is this "fun", and does it feel "fair"? Both axes are highly subjective, so of course it's possible that I may gauge something to be a problem on both axes and you may find it fine on both, but it's my job to be as objective as possible and consider the entire spectrum of our playerbase when making such evaluations. Something like Double-tap Overloads feels very fun to the person using it, but is extremely anti-fun to the recipient. A large portion of fun in combat comes from the base human state cycle of analyze events, determine action, take action, gauge success of action, recalculate, goto 1. Any time something cuts out that cycle, it creates a deep feeling of resentment or unfairness, and the earlier in the cycle you drop out, the more unfair it feels. In the case of anything that deals massive damage to a player with no warning, they are removed from the behavior cycle outlined above before they even start - it's essentially the worst problem a piece of gameplay can have.
We don't cater to any build - we just want to set up good, basic groundrules for combat that are fair and fun for all. Dying in 3 seconds isn't fun. Dying only after 30 minutes is also not fun. There's a middle ground - we've got to get there. It's really that simple.
I had started a reply to your reply to me....but I noticed that if I were to hit preview on it, I'd likely crash the forums database. Heh, I can ramble. I decided to kill that reply and step back. In coming back, I saw this and I wanted to touch upon it (it was one of the things that I brought up in my reply that never happened).
Unfortunately, while it is that simple - it is not that simple at all, imho.
You've got RA, VA, Fleet, and Lockbox ships.
You've got T1-T5 passives in 3 Reps (and more Reps on the way).
You've got Mission/Loot/Exchange gear.
You've got Rep gear.
You've got Fleet gear.
You've got Lobi and Lockbox gear.
You've got Ship gear.
You've got crossfaction ship consoles.
You've got Rom BOFFs and you've got not Rom BOFFs.
You've got DOFFs out the wahzoo.
You've got different Career abilities.
You've got new Career traits.
You've got Lockbox traits.
You've got AFKers, PUGs, Pugmades, and Premades.
You've got people that have been PvPing in STO for three some years.
You've got people that are trying PvP for the first time.
There are just so many - so many - oh so many variables involved.
How can you have basic groundrules when there are so many variables involved?
A person should not die in under 3s. So the person at the far left of the scale (RA ship, hodgepodge mix of mission loot, rainbow extravaganza, never PvP'd before, etc, etc, etc) being attacked by the person at the far right of the scale (Lockbox ship, extreme mix of Fleet/Rep/Lobi/Lockbox/etc gear, a build fine tuned over the years, PvPing for years)...
...well, it would be like somebody prepared for a Casual level of difficulty walking into a mission set on Armageddon Mode.
This may be coming out of leftfield - may be coming out of the parking lot of the 7-Eleven down the street from the parking lot for the stadium - but...
What if another mode of PvP were created based on some of the items/mechanics/systems that exist in the game already?
There are the various threads where folks want to fly various hero ships (but don't feel they're up to snuff for PvP). There are the various threads where folks want the actual Fed-KDF war. Etc, etc, etc...there are those threads.
We've got the Temporal Ambassador mission with the prefab Ambassador.
So...a PvP-mode with prefab ships. There's no having to balance any items, because the items on the ships - skills, gear, etc, etc, etc are prefabs - it is balanced (so to speak). There is no guy on the left fighting the guy on the right...and thousands of posts about it.
When players queue, they decide which of the prefab ships they want to fly. Want to monetize it? Add the ability to unlock various ships at a cost - the ships would still be balanced for the level of play, but if somebody really wanted to fly X ship instead of Y ship - then they could do so, via Dil or Zen, etc, etc, etc. Maybe if they've bought the ship already, they can select it or perhaps get a decent discount on it. Vanity skins for the ships...for sale. Things that would still make a profit, mind you - so yeah, that's going to be an entirely different discussion (has to be part of the discussion - but it's beyond the scope of this post, imho).
None of the oodles upon oodles of variables though - would be there.
So you've got a potential means for folks to have a blast in PvP - at a certain level. If they want to go into the regular play, that's there for them too. Sometimes though, folks just want to kick back and have some fun outside of PvE.
Cause, honestly - I don't believe you can balance PvP around that guy on the left and the guy on the right. You can though, balance around those guys on the left...and you can work on fixing bugs/making sure things are working as intended for the guys on the right.
I may be way off base, but I think not having to try to balance for the guys on the left with the guys on the right would alleviate a massive burden. Introducing a form of play like that, would give everybody something to do - if something did get borked hard elsewhere.
It just seems...well...an actual solution. Would it be cost effective? Again, there are a lot of things that may appear as a solution that might be cost effective...but the return on investment turns out to be a bust. That would just make things worse in the long run.
That's why this is more of a ramble...free thought...kind of post, rather than any kind of detailed suggestion. It's more about floating the idea...
I really want to get a %healing reduction ability into every career somewhere. Not sure if the right flavor for an ability like that is to apply it to the healer (I target your deflector! Your TSS sucks now!) or the heal-ee (Proton Scattering Ray blasts your shields, making them receive 50% less healing from abilities!), but either way, it lets us make distinctions between PvE and PvP time-to-kill without hurting one for the sake of the other.
Interesting concept, hopefully we can see something like this in the future.
I think purple aux2batt technicians are probably a little too strong in general, but they've been in-game as-is for so long that touching them is high-risk. Technician procs should only be affecting Bridge Officer abilities as far as I'm aware, although this proc predates my tenure here so I could be wrong on that. I suspect though that any consoles affected by Technicians are a bug.
I'll try to dig it up when I have time, but I do believe that the Technician DOFF should specifically be limited to bridge officer powers.
If you take a look at the 2, known, ships that they affect the consoles on - I think we can speculate on what is the issue.
D'Kora console - has 2 modes.
1K Vet Ship console - has 2 modes.
Both of these ships have 1 "base" mode, that is "always on".
You turn that mode off, but turning another "on".
So the EMP burst (Dkora), is part of the always on Defensive Mode and the Tachyon Inversion Beam (Vet Ships) is also "always on".
Now, aside from that...here's another puzzle piece. :P
Both of these consoles have Aux power linked effects.
Dkora EMP burst drain duration is aux linked.
Tachyon Inversion Beam shield drain is aux linked.
As a general guideline for MMOs, CC shouldn't be longer than 8-10 seconds - it interrupts the player behavior core loop that I talked about earlier in the thread, causing frustration. In STO space combat, that duration can probably be safely doubled, but higher than 20 seconds seems silly. Grav pulse in particular, I think its scaling is too high and its base effectiveness may be too low.
Agreed on both points.
I also think perhaps Inertial Damps (skill tree skill) might not be resisting all of the effects...effectively.
Please see my sig for more details on how to push the duration to 50s.
the game can be balanced for PVP and PVE with out separating things. because its really pretty close to being balanced as it is, and i can see a path toward much beter balance, we arent up against a wall with no got options, not even close.
The point isn't the double tap in premades... but the need for more then one super spike build in general. (yes double tap isn't the only massive spike option).
Premade Vs Preamade... yes Nuke is needed (you can even score kills with out the nukes but its hard and depending on the other teams make up perhaps impossible)...
We all know how it works right now Nuke + lots of damage. In some cases... Nuke Lots of damage Nuke Spike.... and 50/50.
At this point I think we are talking about more then the double tap.
Yeah, but the underlying point is that people think that healing has made killing really difficult or impossible.
In my experience that just isn't true, at least not in premade matches. I haven't been in too many single digit games even with heal heavy setups. I guess part of that is because our teams run full sci setups, instead of the prototypical heal setups most Feds run. It just takes some really slick coordination to get kills.
Btw, I do agree that we have too many things keeping us alive. I just don't agree with the justification for the double tap in the game.
But yeah, if it was up to me. I'd get rid of most of the TRIBBLE in the game. To me the most perfect the game was for me was around the middle of 2011, even with broken FAW. lol.
OK, gotta spend the rest of the day just makin' stuff, but I'll be reading the ongoing discussion. Thanks for the collective civility, all.
I would just recommend that while making stuff to pitch some ideas of where I am going to be putting this stuff yer making when storage is already at a critical point to most players.
The tenor of what the unruly pvp crowd would like to see is actually pretty stable over the last three years. Tac Team and RSP changes come to mind.
I ll stick with your themes: is it fun? is it fair? and how can people have pve like choices in pvp as well.
1) How PvE is the root of all evil.
The first fix to pvp has to come from pve. As it is 5xtac in dhc enabled ships is the idea set up for 99% of all of STO pvp. The lack of smarter enemies, time and time again has lead to balance problems. Like the original SNB doffs: Completely unbalancing and OP for PvP, no realiable way to get one, but next to useless in pve.
With tank, cc, and burst build into the meta-game, why don't npc adhere to these roles? Why don't npc encounters require them? THere is no tanking an stf gate, there is no npc (outside hive queen) that kill by sci magic. NPCs need counters, smarter behaviour, and we need encounters where tanking, cc, burst, and coordination is rewarded not punished, as healing an escort punishes a dedicated healer in all the FAs right now. Because of my heals the escort stays around longer creates more damage and gets first price. I gave up offensive ship, bo, etc options, but for what? Fair, balanced?
We need more varied and challenging pve content. Especially when leveling tactics and coutnertactics need to happen. Better documentation to help players find out about counters to common bo skills would go a long way.
2) Opportunity costs and choices.
Rep Grind, Traits, Doffs, ships, set-items, lobi items, .... have created exponentially more choices for all of us compared to launch. We need a better UI for activating skills, and new pare-doll options to be able to adjust. The cycle you describe is mostly hindered by the ui and the clumsyness of adapting to a given situation. Switching anything other then a single ens BO is a major pain in the deriere. Give us the option to store let's say 3 loadouts and builds. Including Doff, BO, UI, Consoles, ..... and all of a sudden counterplay becomes a whole different animal. This scores low on the fairness factor, but high on the fun factor both in pve and pvp. "Sure i ll run some nws with you, let me switch to my dmg build." as opposed to "sry, i m in my healboat, it ll just be painfully slow to do xyz, so i ll just pass." "or what do we need for the match, no problem got a current no BS set-up just for proper pew pew" <<<
MOAR fun
on a side note: Giving us lower tier paper dolls to play t3 pvp would be huge. Many people like the gameplay better at lower levels.
It's not enough that there is a counter according to geko's design. We need to be able to adapt and deploy it easily, for it to become actual counterplay.
3) The red headed stepchild of systems.
how much fun do you think it is for a 3 year old toon to become completely obsolete. How many players rejoice and think it is fair, that their first toon which they grinded so hard, all of a sudden is useless because they want to pvp in it. Its infuriating when systems releases items that time after time render engies cpt abilities obsolete. MW, NI, EPS, all obsolete. Whithout fixing the class structure and changes to the meta are going to remain poorly balanced band-aids to be obsolete with the release of the next faction, item, lockbox, .... Being useless is no fun, being punished for fullfilling a support role is no fun. Taking 5x as long as others to achieve the same goal is no fun. Not having a single piece of content, requiring an eng to do an eng's job is no fun. I just cringe at all the engies coming to boot camp, knowing that there will never be enough teams to actually require their participation.
engies are obsolete, without enabling that part of the playerbase to become a viable in pve and pvp no changes to the meta will have long lasting effect, imv.
4) Activate Shield
Its sad that torps are so useless, and RSP and Tac Team are largely to blame. Why doesn't a single NPC rebalance their shields, a skill essential to PvP yet painfully absent from pve?
TT and RSP combined with elite fleet shields are the cause that started this whole debate. So let me just pitch an idea i already pitched a couple of times. What are your thoughts on making shield distribution rate an innate ship stat reversely correlated to turn rate. high turn = low distro, high distro = low turn. Tac team would be a 1.x modifier to this base stat.
This way slow turners could afford using their few tac stations more offensively, while avoiding Cd issues with ST3 and ET3. It could give both parties play and counterplay options, where there currently really isn't much of those. Current levels of Tac Team boosted redistribution would require TT3 which only escorts can slot, and thus have an opportunity cost, which they currently don't.
This nerf to Tac Team wouldn't fix torps, or shields resist but could go a long way in requiring less burst.
Tac Team is partially to blame for the whole shield and resist thing. It needs a balance pass.
Nah, most teams didn't use double tap setups to get kills.
Hi snoge,
Listen, I like to think you and I are cool. I hope it stays that way.
However, you've posted that a few times now.
Yeah, guys in my fleet have been using double taps. I have too.
On the other hand, we don't run TIF, we don't run GPG, we don't run Subspace Circuits, We don't run yellowstones, we don't run SS+DOFFs, we don't run quite a few items that we do own but purposefully choose not to use these items that tend to be controversial in the community.
So I'm not saying you, or your fleet or anyone else's fleet in particular uses these things but people do use these things.
If you can look into your heart, and say to yourself that your fleet generally doesn't or hasn't run things that could be considered questionable as a pre-made, then feel free to keep posting that.
On the other hand, none of us are angels. If you find a different answer when you ask yourself that question, maybe you'll have a different perspective when you post about others.
Listen, I like to think you and I are cool. I hope it stays that way.
However, you've posted that a few times now.
Yeah, guys in my fleet have been using double taps. I have too.
On the other hand, we don't run TIF, we don't run GPG, we don't run Subspace Circuits, We don't run yellowstones, we don't run SS+DOFFs, we don't run quite a few items that we do own but purposefully choose not to use these items that tend to be controversial in the community.
So I'm not saying you, or your fleet or anyone else's fleet in particular uses these things but people do use these things.
If you can look into your heart, and say to yourself that your fleet generally doesn't or hasn't run things that could be considered questionable as a pre-made, then feel free to keep posting that.
On the other hand, none of us are angels. If you find a different answer when you ask yourself that question, maybe you'll have a different perspective when you post about others.
we all know theyre scramble spamming p2w jerkwads the worst of them. i gave zelda and hobos a break for being leech/ syphon TRIBBLE and breakign every faux pass in the book, then they come after my build.
the thing with double tap is if u cant do it, u cant win. not if u CANT BUY IT
italked at length with so many people, hosted a advanced pvp bootcamp class, that u snog even personally attended, all before LOR. NO ONE DARED SAY MY STYLE WAS OP THEN.
lets be real, take a step back, and ask ourselves what we expect from the game
sadly i am weak willed and mindd and im going to grab all the last of the glory i can before the nerf so im redownloadin as we speak
Listen, I like to think you and I are cool. I hope it stays that way.
However, you've posted that a few times now.
Yeah, guys in my fleet have been using double taps. I have too.
On the other hand, we don't run TIF, we don't run GPG, we don't run Subspace Circuits, We don't run yellowstones, we don't run SS+DOFFs, we don't run quite a few items that we do own but purposefully choose not to use these items that tend to be controversial in the community.
So I'm not saying you, or your fleet or anyone else's fleet in particular uses these things but people do use these things.
If you can look into your heart, and say to yourself that your fleet generally doesn't or hasn't run things that could be considered questionable as a pre-made, then feel free to keep posting that.
On the other hand, none of us are angels. If you find a different answer when you ask yourself that question, maybe you'll have a different perspective when you post about others.
Guys enough with the handbags.
Snog i hope you see the bigger picture than you yourself your fleet. It's more than just nerf BO and be done with it. It's the reasoning to why the meta game has changed to this type of build.
Of course you can get kills with or without BO, but the under lining matter is why alot of ppl run double tap builds now. This aint about my fleet doesn't use double tap therefore we're 'Leet' and 'God' which Zelda so explicably mentioned earlier. This is about the current issue of spike builds and the ridculous resists that was the reasoning behind this.
If you want to nerf everything that you feel is not conductive to your style of play then your going to find your going to be the only fleet out there soon and a very empty PVP community.
Look at the bigger picture and look past your own Fleet, faction and individual needs
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
One thing I wanted to add, I really hope that you do not make any changes to torpedo abilities. Double-stacking torpedoes is possible, but the effect is pretty benign due to the shared cooldown and the general weakness of torpedoes if even a sliver of shields remain.
Before you even consider reducing torpedo abilities, I think you should look at the current state of Fire at Will and maybe consider removing immunity to confuse when that power is activated.
Listen, I like to think you and I are cool. I hope it stays that way.
However, you've posted that a few times now.
Yeah, guys in my fleet have been using double taps. I have too.
On the other hand, we don't run TIF, we don't run GPG, we don't run Subspace Circuits, We don't run yellowstones, we don't run SS+DOFFs, we don't run quite a few items that we do own but purposefully choose not to use these items that tend to be controversial in the community.
So I'm not saying you, or your fleet or anyone else's fleet in particular uses these things but people do use these things.
If you can look into your heart, and say to yourself that your fleet generally doesn't or hasn't run things that could be considered questionable as a pre-made, then feel free to keep posting that.
On the other hand, none of us are angels. If you find a different answer when you ask yourself that question, maybe you'll have a different perspective when you post about others.
I have no idea what your post is even about.
I was simply answering the idea that it was part of the metagame to need to double tap to get kills. It's patently false.
Most teams don't run those setups to get kills, because they are not necessary. The justifications for supporting the Rom spike builds are based on the experience of limited teams. And are not the norm at all.
Snog i hope you see the bigger picture than you yourself your fleet. It's more than just nerf BO and be done with it. It's the reasoning to why the meta game has changed to this type of build.
Of course you can get kills with or without BO, but the under lining matter is why alot of ppl run double tap builds now. This aint about my fleet doesn't use double tap therefore we're 'Leet' and 'God' which Zelda so explicably mentioned earlier. This is about the current issue of spike builds and the ridculous resists that was the reasoning behind this.
If you want to nerf everything that you feel is not conductive to your style of play then your going to find your going to be the only fleet out there soon and a very empty PVP community.
Look at the bigger picture and look past your own Fleet, faction and individual needs
I have no stake in these changes at all. I've already studied ways around these types of builds and have made my own. I just don't accept the rationale behind these builds that I see posted in these forums.
It's only a small portion of the premade community that uses those builds.
Anyhow, it's a moot point. The dev already stated that he hates the idea behind it and made the adjustment. It's either adapt or change his mind about it.
Listen, I like to think you and I are cool. I hope it stays that way.
However, you've posted that a few times now.
Yeah, guys in my fleet have been using double taps. I have too.
On the other hand, we don't run TIF, we don't run GPG, we don't run Subspace Circuits, We don't run yellowstones, we don't run SS+DOFFs, we don't run quite a few items that we do own but purposefully choose not to use these items that tend to be controversial in the community.
So I'm not saying you, or your fleet or anyone else's fleet in particular uses these things but people do use these things.
If you can look into your heart, and say to yourself that your fleet generally doesn't or hasn't run things that could be considered questionable as a pre-made, then feel free to keep posting that.
On the other hand, none of us are angels. If you find a different answer when you ask yourself that question, maybe you'll have a different perspective when you post about others.
i think he was refering to the two tournaments were you could not use that, and even so we were getting the kills and other teams were getting the kills, correct me snog if im mistaken, btw im really happy that the team is taking their time to really reply to all this questions...
this is helpfull for the pvp comunity in this game
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Federation :: Fleetless :: Klingon Jorge Silva - Tac | Nayja - Sci | Jorge E. Silva - Eng Jorge R. Silva - Tac (Romulan Fed) Nayja K Silva - Sci | Vurg'jah - Tac
italked at length with so many people, hosted a advanced pvp bootcamp class, that u snog even personally attended, all before LOR. NO ONE DARED SAY MY STYLE WAS OP THEN.
i called it op and exploiting a loophole every time it was brought up around me since marion. its funny to think back now at the shouting down i routinely got back then. i didn't like it on principle, and didn't use it, though the possibilities were obvious.
1 second vapes are cheep, they make the target feel cheated. i dont like to make my opponent feel cheated, i want us both to feel like we had a chance, everyone should be having fun not just me.
i called it op and exploiting a loophole every time it was brought up around me since marion. its funny to think back now at the shouting down i routinely got back then. i didn't like it on principle, and didn't use it, though the possibilities were obvious.
1 second vapes are cheep, they make the target feel cheated. i dont like to make my opponent feel cheated, i want us both to feel like we had a chance, everyone should be having fun not just me.
well there in the game. cant wait to 4 hit iso, ram, or destabil crit u for over 100k. hell one beam overload at 90k at the right time will do it. u will die fast again i have decided
well there in the game. cant wait to 4 hit iso, ram, or destabil crit u for over 100k. hell one beam overload at 90k at the right time will do it. u will die fast again i have decided
sounds like this fix isn't worth the tantrum being thrown about it then
Comments
LoL Zing. Nice
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
you and i think alike, and have the same concerns.
pve is always a concern, especially with the average pve'er skill level. the bar cant be set above a certain level though. becase pve'ers quite literally dont know how to use more then 10% of their ships potential, wile good pvpers are operating at about 80% and above. i dont want pve'ers mad at aus, and the community divided, so im always thinking of wayt to help pvp wile minimally effecting pve.
on the defensive end, this is a list of minimally invasive changes that shouldn't hurt pve'ers, or pug pvp much, wile directly targeting premade high level play
-5 second long duration of TT
-RSP clearable by things like tach beam and CPB
-those dead shield strip skills lowering shield res as their primary function
-removing the resistance buff from ES, possibly reducing the duration or ES to 15 seconds
-changing all instant heals to heals over time
these changes would primarily lower the effectiveness of team healing, more so then a persons personal self heal potential. i find i very rarely even need TT anymore i have resistance and elusiveness stacked so high now. 5 second TT would be more of an emergency death preventer then a whole alpha strike nullify. i honestly dont think this would effect pve much, i cant remember the last time i had to use TT in pve. TT is for killing alphas, npcs dont, and cant alpha. they can spike pretty hard now and then, but no super high sustained over time damage is present, aside from being the target of a tac cube or gate.
RSP has always been to easy of an out, with only 1 counter, snb. abandoned due to uselessness thanks to the skill tree change, shield strip skills could be repurposed to be a counter, thus increasing premade team offense in the face of overwhelming premade team defense, without resorting to nuk stacking and more weapons spike. no npc has CPB, and only some sci ships npc have tach beam, pve is again unaffected.
ES is a pvp team skill. only in NWS is it used in pve. and i see someone new beat that like every day now, so...
ET and AtS and EPtS healing over 5 to 7 seconds would not reduce total healing, but like spike damage being what kills, spike healing is what saves. npcs deal damage so gradually that again, not much of an effect for them ether.
The discussion regarding needing the BO double tap to kill people has been posted ad nasuem, what do you feel that we should use as a counter to it?
As it stands, the only way to really get a kill in premade v premade PvP is to time SNBs and crazy burst damage like with a double tap BO (due to crazy high resists and healing).
Might I suggest that when this Double Tap fix hits Tribble/Live, another fix (buff or nerf) is implemented along with it so that matches don't go on forever? Perhaps a buff to some Science abilities or the -ShieldResistance you spoke of elsewhere?
Nah, most teams didn't use double tap setups to get kills.
+1 to all the above. If Tachyon Beam in particular were repurposed as an anti-shield-healing skill, I can see PvP benefiting considerably. Because Tachyon Beam is a limited-arc skill that is broken the second the target leaves that arc, it can be avoided through player skill. Whether it would work by reducing shield resistance or by negating the efficacy of shield heals, I think it might help many of the cross-healing problems we're seeing.
CPB could also use some lovin'.
Aux2SIF should be a heal per say, it should buff your SIF for a short duration giving you resistance and more hit points, but unless your passive heal catches up, you loose the temp hit point buff. Sort of like how the Nukara T5 can work with Aux Batteries, providing resistance and temp hit points while your Aux is high. HE...since when do cleanses heal, maybe give it the same kind of an effect as Aux2SIF as described above (reinforcing SIF), but with the cleanse. And I never understood the concept behind TSS, where are you transferring the shield strength from? Maybe make it a form of Tac Team, but without the other benefits.
In short:
Engineering Team>>Make it like HE now, no cleanse but with fix offline systems
Aux2SIF>>Adds temp hit points and resistance while power is active.
HE>>Adds temp hit points and cleanses.
TSS>>Like Tac Team, but without offensive benefits, maybe a shield resist
While we are at it, Tac Team, add a little longer duration and Sci Team, Cleanse, Shield Resist with Shield Heal over time.
I'm stuck on Miracle Work, I mean the power makes sense in canon, but not in real life, it should be as good as it is, but there is no logic behind it.
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Maybe?
idk, I stay far away from Tac when it comes to actual premade matches. But I guess my point is that concentrated and high Burst is the only way to land a kill - give someone 2 seconds of breathing room and they're already back up to like 50%.
Part of that is player skill (healers jumping on with TSS/HE/A2SIF/xTeam quickly), part of that is all of the passive healing and mega high resists that are granted.
No you just use 3 DPS ships. :rolleyes:
The point isn't the double tap in premades... but the need for more then one super spike build in general. (yes double tap isn't the only massive spike option).
Premade Vs Preamade... yes Nuke is needed (you can even score kills with out the nukes but its hard and depending on the other teams make up perhaps impossible)...
We all know how it works right now Nuke + lots of damage. In some cases... Nuke Lots of damage Nuke Spike.... and 50/50.
At this point I think we are talking about more then the double tap.
Well, I appreciate you taking the time to go back and take a second look and also for the apology.
So, apology accepted. No hard feelings from me, and I hope to have good matches against you in the future.
Now this idea of a decking system is just genius. Allows balance through saturation. Balanced through limitation but still giving more content and variability. Also allows for money makin in way of Rep system retrait token
Now your dropping hints that you have been listening (More watching really) :P
Force multiplier bonus in way of team shield heal / resistance equal and opposite to the elite disruptors or force multiplier in giving the same debuff as KDF elite disruptor weapons?
Good luck with that!
I had started a reply to your reply to me....but I noticed that if I were to hit preview on it, I'd likely crash the forums database. Heh, I can ramble. I decided to kill that reply and step back. In coming back, I saw this and I wanted to touch upon it (it was one of the things that I brought up in my reply that never happened).
Unfortunately, while it is that simple - it is not that simple at all, imho.
You've got RA, VA, Fleet, and Lockbox ships.
You've got T1-T5 passives in 3 Reps (and more Reps on the way).
You've got Mission/Loot/Exchange gear.
You've got Rep gear.
You've got Fleet gear.
You've got Lobi and Lockbox gear.
You've got Ship gear.
You've got crossfaction ship consoles.
You've got Rom BOFFs and you've got not Rom BOFFs.
You've got DOFFs out the wahzoo.
You've got different Career abilities.
You've got new Career traits.
You've got Lockbox traits.
You've got AFKers, PUGs, Pugmades, and Premades.
You've got people that have been PvPing in STO for three some years.
You've got people that are trying PvP for the first time.
There are just so many - so many - oh so many variables involved.
How can you have basic groundrules when there are so many variables involved?
A person should not die in under 3s. So the person at the far left of the scale (RA ship, hodgepodge mix of mission loot, rainbow extravaganza, never PvP'd before, etc, etc, etc) being attacked by the person at the far right of the scale (Lockbox ship, extreme mix of Fleet/Rep/Lobi/Lockbox/etc gear, a build fine tuned over the years, PvPing for years)...
...well, it would be like somebody prepared for a Casual level of difficulty walking into a mission set on Armageddon Mode.
This may be coming out of leftfield - may be coming out of the parking lot of the 7-Eleven down the street from the parking lot for the stadium - but...
What if another mode of PvP were created based on some of the items/mechanics/systems that exist in the game already?
There are the various threads where folks want to fly various hero ships (but don't feel they're up to snuff for PvP). There are the various threads where folks want the actual Fed-KDF war. Etc, etc, etc...there are those threads.
We've got the Temporal Ambassador mission with the prefab Ambassador.
So...a PvP-mode with prefab ships. There's no having to balance any items, because the items on the ships - skills, gear, etc, etc, etc are prefabs - it is balanced (so to speak). There is no guy on the left fighting the guy on the right...and thousands of posts about it.
When players queue, they decide which of the prefab ships they want to fly. Want to monetize it? Add the ability to unlock various ships at a cost - the ships would still be balanced for the level of play, but if somebody really wanted to fly X ship instead of Y ship - then they could do so, via Dil or Zen, etc, etc, etc. Maybe if they've bought the ship already, they can select it or perhaps get a decent discount on it. Vanity skins for the ships...for sale. Things that would still make a profit, mind you - so yeah, that's going to be an entirely different discussion (has to be part of the discussion - but it's beyond the scope of this post, imho).
None of the oodles upon oodles of variables though - would be there.
So you've got a potential means for folks to have a blast in PvP - at a certain level. If they want to go into the regular play, that's there for them too. Sometimes though, folks just want to kick back and have some fun outside of PvE.
Cause, honestly - I don't believe you can balance PvP around that guy on the left and the guy on the right. You can though, balance around those guys on the left...and you can work on fixing bugs/making sure things are working as intended for the guys on the right.
I may be way off base, but I think not having to try to balance for the guys on the left with the guys on the right would alleviate a massive burden. Introducing a form of play like that, would give everybody something to do - if something did get borked hard elsewhere.
It just seems...well...an actual solution. Would it be cost effective? Again, there are a lot of things that may appear as a solution that might be cost effective...but the return on investment turns out to be a bust. That would just make things worse in the long run.
That's why this is more of a ramble...free thought...kind of post, rather than any kind of detailed suggestion. It's more about floating the idea...
Interesting concept, hopefully we can see something like this in the future.
I'll try to dig it up when I have time, but I do believe that the Technician DOFF should specifically be limited to bridge officer powers.
If you take a look at the 2, known, ships that they affect the consoles on - I think we can speculate on what is the issue.
D'Kora console - has 2 modes.
1K Vet Ship console - has 2 modes.
Both of these ships have 1 "base" mode, that is "always on".
You turn that mode off, but turning another "on".
So the EMP burst (Dkora), is part of the always on Defensive Mode and the Tachyon Inversion Beam (Vet Ships) is also "always on".
Now, aside from that...here's another puzzle piece. :P
Both of these consoles have Aux power linked effects.
Dkora EMP burst drain duration is aux linked.
Tachyon Inversion Beam shield drain is aux linked.
Hope that helps.
Agreed on both points.
I also think perhaps Inertial Damps (skill tree skill) might not be resisting all of the effects...effectively.
Please see my sig for more details on how to push the duration to 50s.
As stated the primary issues are the AoE debuff, that is both a cooldown reduction coupled with an AoE movement debuff.
There are not many hard counters, and I don't believe any skill tree resistances are flagged to deal with this.
Stack 2 or 3 of these on a single team, and things quickly devolve far below the point of sanity.
OK, I lol'd. :P
Yeah, but the underlying point is that people think that healing has made killing really difficult or impossible.
In my experience that just isn't true, at least not in premade matches. I haven't been in too many single digit games even with heal heavy setups. I guess part of that is because our teams run full sci setups, instead of the prototypical heal setups most Feds run. It just takes some really slick coordination to get kills.
Btw, I do agree that we have too many things keeping us alive. I just don't agree with the justification for the double tap in the game.
But yeah, if it was up to me. I'd get rid of most of the TRIBBLE in the game. To me the most perfect the game was for me was around the middle of 2011, even with broken FAW. lol.
I would just recommend that while making stuff to pitch some ideas of where I am going to be putting this stuff yer making when storage is already at a critical point to most players.
lol @naz "as a president"
The tenor of what the unruly pvp crowd would like to see is actually pretty stable over the last three years. Tac Team and RSP changes come to mind.
I ll stick with your themes: is it fun? is it fair? and how can people have pve like choices in pvp as well.
1) How PvE is the root of all evil.
The first fix to pvp has to come from pve. As it is 5xtac in dhc enabled ships is the idea set up for 99% of all of STO pvp. The lack of smarter enemies, time and time again has lead to balance problems. Like the original SNB doffs: Completely unbalancing and OP for PvP, no realiable way to get one, but next to useless in pve.
With tank, cc, and burst build into the meta-game, why don't npc adhere to these roles? Why don't npc encounters require them? THere is no tanking an stf gate, there is no npc (outside hive queen) that kill by sci magic. NPCs need counters, smarter behaviour, and we need encounters where tanking, cc, burst, and coordination is rewarded not punished, as healing an escort punishes a dedicated healer in all the FAs right now. Because of my heals the escort stays around longer creates more damage and gets first price. I gave up offensive ship, bo, etc options, but for what? Fair, balanced?
We need more varied and challenging pve content. Especially when leveling tactics and coutnertactics need to happen. Better documentation to help players find out about counters to common bo skills would go a long way.
2) Opportunity costs and choices.
Rep Grind, Traits, Doffs, ships, set-items, lobi items, .... have created exponentially more choices for all of us compared to launch. We need a better UI for activating skills, and new pare-doll options to be able to adjust. The cycle you describe is mostly hindered by the ui and the clumsyness of adapting to a given situation. Switching anything other then a single ens BO is a major pain in the deriere. Give us the option to store let's say 3 loadouts and builds. Including Doff, BO, UI, Consoles, ..... and all of a sudden counterplay becomes a whole different animal. This scores low on the fairness factor, but high on the fun factor both in pve and pvp. "Sure i ll run some nws with you, let me switch to my dmg build." as opposed to "sry, i m in my healboat, it ll just be painfully slow to do xyz, so i ll just pass." "or what do we need for the match, no problem got a current no BS set-up just for proper pew pew" <<<
MOAR fun
on a side note: Giving us lower tier paper dolls to play t3 pvp would be huge. Many people like the gameplay better at lower levels.
It's not enough that there is a counter according to geko's design. We need to be able to adapt and deploy it easily, for it to become actual counterplay.
3) The red headed stepchild of systems.
how much fun do you think it is for a 3 year old toon to become completely obsolete. How many players rejoice and think it is fair, that their first toon which they grinded so hard, all of a sudden is useless because they want to pvp in it. Its infuriating when systems releases items that time after time render engies cpt abilities obsolete. MW, NI, EPS, all obsolete. Whithout fixing the class structure and changes to the meta are going to remain poorly balanced band-aids to be obsolete with the release of the next faction, item, lockbox, .... Being useless is no fun, being punished for fullfilling a support role is no fun. Taking 5x as long as others to achieve the same goal is no fun. Not having a single piece of content, requiring an eng to do an eng's job is no fun. I just cringe at all the engies coming to boot camp, knowing that there will never be enough teams to actually require their participation.
engies are obsolete, without enabling that part of the playerbase to become a viable in pve and pvp no changes to the meta will have long lasting effect, imv.
4) Activate Shield
Its sad that torps are so useless, and RSP and Tac Team are largely to blame. Why doesn't a single NPC rebalance their shields, a skill essential to PvP yet painfully absent from pve?
TT and RSP combined with elite fleet shields are the cause that started this whole debate. So let me just pitch an idea i already pitched a couple of times. What are your thoughts on making shield distribution rate an innate ship stat reversely correlated to turn rate. high turn = low distro, high distro = low turn. Tac team would be a 1.x modifier to this base stat.
This way slow turners could afford using their few tac stations more offensively, while avoiding Cd issues with ST3 and ET3. It could give both parties play and counterplay options, where there currently really isn't much of those. Current levels of Tac Team boosted redistribution would require TT3 which only escorts can slot, and thus have an opportunity cost, which they currently don't.
This nerf to Tac Team wouldn't fix torps, or shields resist but could go a long way in requiring less burst.
Tac Team is partially to blame for the whole shield and resist thing. It needs a balance pass.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Hi snoge,
Listen, I like to think you and I are cool. I hope it stays that way.
However, you've posted that a few times now.
Yeah, guys in my fleet have been using double taps. I have too.
On the other hand, we don't run TIF, we don't run GPG, we don't run Subspace Circuits, We don't run yellowstones, we don't run SS+DOFFs, we don't run quite a few items that we do own but purposefully choose not to use these items that tend to be controversial in the community.
So I'm not saying you, or your fleet or anyone else's fleet in particular uses these things but people do use these things.
If you can look into your heart, and say to yourself that your fleet generally doesn't or hasn't run things that could be considered questionable as a pre-made, then feel free to keep posting that.
On the other hand, none of us are angels. If you find a different answer when you ask yourself that question, maybe you'll have a different perspective when you post about others.
we all know theyre scramble spamming p2w jerkwads the worst of them. i gave zelda and hobos a break for being leech/ syphon TRIBBLE and breakign every faux pass in the book, then they come after my build.
the thing with double tap is if u cant do it, u cant win. not if u CANT BUY IT
italked at length with so many people, hosted a advanced pvp bootcamp class, that u snog even personally attended, all before LOR. NO ONE DARED SAY MY STYLE WAS OP THEN.
lets be real, take a step back, and ask ourselves what we expect from the game
sadly i am weak willed and mindd and im going to grab all the last of the glory i can before the nerf so im redownloadin as we speak
Guys enough with the handbags.
Snog i hope you see the bigger picture than you yourself your fleet. It's more than just nerf BO and be done with it. It's the reasoning to why the meta game has changed to this type of build.
Of course you can get kills with or without BO, but the under lining matter is why alot of ppl run double tap builds now. This aint about my fleet doesn't use double tap therefore we're 'Leet' and 'God' which Zelda so explicably mentioned earlier. This is about the current issue of spike builds and the ridculous resists that was the reasoning behind this.
If you want to nerf everything that you feel is not conductive to your style of play then your going to find your going to be the only fleet out there soon and a very empty PVP community.
Look at the bigger picture and look past your own Fleet, faction and individual needs
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
To distract me from the general misery of my existence...
...oh, was that a butterfly?
Before you even consider reducing torpedo abilities, I think you should look at the current state of Fire at Will and maybe consider removing immunity to confuse when that power is activated.
Damn you man! 1 mistake, just 1 and you grief me :P
all in good spirits. You could have my president vote any time.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I have no idea what your post is even about.
I was simply answering the idea that it was part of the metagame to need to double tap to get kills. It's patently false.
Most teams don't run those setups to get kills, because they are not necessary. The justifications for supporting the Rom spike builds are based on the experience of limited teams. And are not the norm at all.
I have no stake in these changes at all. I've already studied ways around these types of builds and have made my own. I just don't accept the rationale behind these builds that I see posted in these forums.
It's only a small portion of the premade community that uses those builds.
Anyhow, it's a moot point. The dev already stated that he hates the idea behind it and made the adjustment. It's either adapt or change his mind about it.
i think he was refering to the two tournaments were you could not use that, and even so we were getting the kills and other teams were getting the kills, correct me snog if im mistaken, btw im really happy that the team is taking their time to really reply to all this questions...
this is helpfull for the pvp comunity in this game
Federation :: Fleetless :: Klingon
Jorge Silva - Tac | Nayja - Sci | Jorge E. Silva - Eng
Jorge R. Silva - Tac (Romulan Fed)
Nayja K Silva - Sci | Vurg'jah - Tac
i called it op and exploiting a loophole every time it was brought up around me since marion. its funny to think back now at the shouting down i routinely got back then. i didn't like it on principle, and didn't use it, though the possibilities were obvious.
1 second vapes are cheep, they make the target feel cheated. i dont like to make my opponent feel cheated, i want us both to feel like we had a chance, everyone should be having fun not just me.
well there in the game. cant wait to 4 hit iso, ram, or destabil crit u for over 100k. hell one beam overload at 90k at the right time will do it. u will die fast again i have decided
sounds like this fix isn't worth the tantrum being thrown about it then