General Order was used in the TOS, a series that, despite the fact that it founded a series that we all know and love, was laden with plot holes and continuity errors. Canonically, yes, there was a General Order 24 that called for "The extinction of all life on a planet", but given the context of such an order, as well as the writing of the time, I highl doubt it was meant in the way that you're using it in this argument. Of course, it was attempted to misuse this order in-series as well, but both times that GO24 was actually used, it was never carried out.
For the Uniform, that one strikes me as a case of either there should have been repercussions for that or the writers wanted to face Sisko with a "anti-hero" moment. Also, comparitively, he -was- acting on his own, with no sanctions or approval from the Federation. Though no one actually died, this episode presents a bit of a writing conundrum.
Insurrection, I don't know if you can use that as an example either, because although the entire mess was shady as hell, the original plan set forth by the "Federation" was to relocate, not exterminate, the Ba'Ku. Now, I say "Federation" because there are many allusions and hints that this was -not- a deal that was voted on, or put forth to the Council at large, and Admiral Dougherty's desperation to keep the Enterprise from exposing their operation definitely lends credence to this. Particularly when Ru'Afo asks him if he really think the rest of the federation members will agree with what he's doing if it becomes public knowledge that Picard is "fighting the good fight".
Now, as to your first point, again, if the Vulcan High Command was "cool with it", that doesn't mean the Federation as a whole was "cool with it". If America didn't want to go to war with someone but, say, Ohio was "cool with it", do you say "Oh no, America wants to go to war with such and such"? No, you say "Wow, Ohio, what the fudge is wrong with you" and deal accordingly.
And, now you're distorting my words. I never said that the Federation refused to help Romulus, I said Vulcan did.
And the point still stands that the Federation didn't actually do a lot to help the Romulans during the crisis.
As for everything else, those points were to demonstrate that the Federation deems annihilation of a planet acceptable under certain circumstances, not that they are constantly willing to do so. GO24 proves that they're prepared to do so, even if they didn't. "For the Uniform" shows, by the simple fact that there WEREN'T repercussions, that they're willing to accept planetary devastation (albeit, so long as no one was actually KILLED).
I'll give you the point on Star Trek: Insurrection, except that Dougherty actually STATES that the Federation Council was aware of what was happening. The Enterprise was trying to tell the Federation's civilian population, which would have forced the Council to re-assess the situation. The Federation government was certainly aware of what was happening.
I would point out that S31 tried to wipe out the Founders, but since they're not "officially" sanctioned, I don't consider their actions to be analogous with the Federation's wishes.
I just find it hypocritical that the Federation is against other civilisations destroying planets when they THEMSELVES have protocols in place to do just that! It's like the U.S. having Nuclear Weapons (and China, Russia, and the U.K. (just to prove I'm not biased towards my own country)) and then throwing a tantrum when a much smaller nation tries to develop Nuclear Power (and by default, Nuclear Weapons).
These two are much more relevant:
Article 14, Section 31
Special Order 66715
Not familiar with 66715, but I honestly don't consider S31 to be Federation.
In DS9, Sloan even says that A14, S31 is in "the original Federation Charter" suggesting that it was since amended. It probably wasn't, and for the sake of staying true to canon we'll say it wasn't, but S31 (the agency) is considered a rogue organisation. Their actions don't necessarily reflect the will of the Federation Council.
And, now you're distorting my words. I never said that the Federation refused to help Romulus, I said Vulcan did.
And the point still stands that the Federation didn't actually do a lot to help the Romulans during the crisis.
As for everything else, those points were to demonstrate that the Federation deems annihilation of a planet acceptable under certain circumstances, not that they are constantly willing to do so. GO24 proves that they're prepared to do so, even if they didn't. "For the Uniform" shows, by the simple fact that there WEREN'T repercussions, that they're willing to accept planetary devastation (albeit, so long as no one was actually KILLED).
I'll give you the point on Star Trek: Insurrection, except that Dougherty actually STATES that the Federation Council was aware of what was happening. The Enterprise was trying to tell the Federation's civilian population, which would have forced the Council to re-assess the situation. The Federation government was certainly aware of what was happening.
I would point out that S31 tried to wipe out the Founders, but since they're not "officially" sanctioned, I don't consider their actions to be analogous with the Federation's wishes.
I just find it hypocritical that the Federation is against other civilisations destroying planets when they THEMSELVES have protocols in place to do just that! It's like the U.S. having Nuclear Weapons (and China, Russia, and the U.K. (just to prove I'm not biased towards my own country)) and then throwing a tantrum when a much smaller nation tries to develop Nuclear Power (and by default, Nuclear Weapons).
I didn't distort your words, I took what was presented to me and went from that. If you presented your information differently from what you were intending, I'm sorry.
Dougherty did state that, yes, but he was also keeping a lot of things hidden from the council, no doubt to proceed with the mission without anyone being the wiser. This was a situation of the Council was not told the whole story, and an admiral who wasn't a fan of telling the whole truth when it came ot advancing his career. They mentioned this or made allusions to this several times during the dialogue between Dougherty and Ru'Afo.
However it was never canonically stated if Dougherty was telling the truth that the council knew of the extent of the operation, since the guy kinda died towards the later third of the movie, so accuracy is vague on this point.
I consider GO24 to be, as someone else stated, a Red Herring. Though that doesn't stop them from canonically existing, of course. So I must concede this point, even if it was created by sub-par writing(as well as an unclear idea of what the Federation actually was, at the time)
And really I can't argue your counter-counter point to the DS9 episode, All I can do is say I wish they would consider what a "hard choice" for a captain would be, that one was poorly thought out. The Federation has no reason to be that desperate against the Maquis.
So. Long story short, thinking about it, you're right on the case of GO24 and For the Uniform. Not so much on Insurrection, but that can also be put up for debate because of how vague everything ultimately was.
I'm not saying the Federation is necessarily right, but then they don't have a definite means of destroying all life on entire worlds as far as I know. (At least not one that's -supposed- to end all life. Project Genesis, anyone?)
(I'm not wanting to say much on the real world situation past what I stated in the last post I made because tbh I'm tired of politics lately, lol)
Remember even if roleplaying youre still a Federation Officer....Outside of our sphere its possible for the Romulans and Federation to have talks over these Thalaron weapons and never know about it...mostly because there isnt a CNN blasting this info all over the FedNet.
Id say that the Federation and KDF would be more interested in the pacifists having Scimitar class warships.
Why do peaceful Romulans need a fleet of these, other than to get back to the old RSE
Because in real life and in Star Trek, not having a decent enough military opens you up to being exploited by others that are stronger.
Why?
Because they can, and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
With strong warships in a decent enough military, the Romulans (whichever subgroup you refer to), aren't exactly a pushover. The broken up Romulan Star Empire is weak and disunified, but its subgroups are still something to be concerned with.
All of Sloans "lies" held some seed of truth. There's probably something on teh books for high priority installations but "Any means necessary" may be an exaggeration.
Not familiar with 66715, but I honestly don't consider S31 to be Federation.
In DS9, Sloan even says that A14, S31 is in "the original Federation Charter" suggesting that it was since amended. It probably wasn't, and for the sake of staying true to canon we'll say it wasn't, but S31 (the agency) is considered a rogue organisation. Their actions don't necessarily reflect the will of the Federation Council.
Anyway, what is Special Order 66715?
Actually, that would be the original United Earth Starfleet Charter. Section 31 was around long before the Federation existed.
And Section 31 is considered an (unacknowledged) department within Starfleet.
And as for folks calling General Order 24 a "red herring", you can't cherry pick and exclude things that doesn't fit into the later, idealized portrayal of the Federation. If General Order 24 was mentioned in TOS as "being on the books", then it was. Blaming bad writing and inconsistencies in the early days of TOS is a mechanism to avoid that uncomfortable fact.
It was never stated if it was repealed in later years. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was later revealed to have been.
Actually, that would be the original United Earth Starfleet Charter. Section 31 was around long before the Federation existed.
And Section 31 is considered an (unacknowledged) department within Starfleet.
And as for folks calling General Order 24 a "red herring", you can't cherry pick and exclude things that doesn't fit into the later, idealized portrayal of the Federation. If General Order 24 was mentioned in TOS as "being on the books", then it was. Blaming bad writing and inconsistencies in the early days of TOS is a mechanism to avoid that uncomfortable fact.
It was never stated if it was repealed in later years. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was later revealed to have been.
Well, we have never been given the full text of GO24. Garth mentioned that it applied to races that were openly hostile to the Federation, and when Kirk used it he was confronting a race that was trying to wipe out the crew of the Enterprise.
It seems most likely to me that it is something along the lines of a declaration of all-out war, and not something as specific as destroying a planet. Needless to say "all out" war means killing the enemy by any means available. In Kirk's case he ordered the ship to bombard the planet with photon torpedos. The end result would have been utterly destroying the civilization on the planet, but most of the populace would have simply been collateral damage. The order wasn't carried out but the intent of Kirk's actions was to show the Eminians that he was capable of nullifying the threat they posed to the Federation. Some people say he was bluffing, but I don't beleive it. Kirk was pursuing an aggressive diplomatic stance. He didn't want to massacre the Eminians, but if they kept trying to kill his crew he would have little choice in the matter. So he used a theatrical way of explaining to the Eminians what he was go9ng to do to them if they didn't try to be peaceful.
Actually, that would be the original United Earth Starfleet Charter. Section 31 was around long before the Federation existed.
And Section 31 is considered an (unacknowledged) department within Starfleet.
And as for folks calling General Order 24 a "red herring", you can't cherry pick and exclude things that doesn't fit into the later, idealized portrayal of the Federation. If General Order 24 was mentioned in TOS as "being on the books", then it was. Blaming bad writing and inconsistencies in the early days of TOS is a mechanism to avoid that uncomfortable fact.
It was never stated if it was repealed in later years. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was later revealed to have been.
Do you know what "a red herring" is? It's a distraction, and it's irrelevant.
Perhaps it would be helpful if you read the entire post in which I described it as such:
These two are much more relevant:
Article 14, Section 31
Special Order 66715
By no means am I idealizing the Federation (hahaha, as if), nor denying the existence of General Order 24. I am, instead, pointing out that there are even MORE damning regulations, special orders, etc., on the books.
Actually, that would be the original United Earth Starfleet Charter. Section 31 was around long before the Federation existed.
And Section 31 is considered an (unacknowledged) department within Starfleet.
And as for folks calling General Order 24 a "red herring", you can't cherry pick and exclude things that doesn't fit into the later, idealized portrayal of the Federation. If General Order 24 was mentioned in TOS as "being on the books", then it was. Blaming bad writing and inconsistencies in the early days of TOS is a mechanism to avoid that uncomfortable fact.
It was never stated if it was repealed in later years. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was later revealed to have been.
The reason I didn't say the "Starfleet Charter" was because there were differences between the UE and UFP, meaning what was in United Earth's Charter wasn't necessarily in UFP's Charter, but Sloan does specifically state that A14, S31 was part of the UFP Charter as well, hence why I referred to that as the most recent official mention of S31.
There are enough complaints about how loose Cryptic has played with Star Trek lore without them completely ignoring it. Thalaron weapons are universally banned and should not be available to players (unless and until there is a true faction system wherein you can play as a "bad guy").
It's not as if Cryptic couldn't take the exact same weapon and name it something else with zero impact on gameplay with the appropriate technobabble.
Every time I see a Scimitar fire it's Thalaron weapon, I curse the developers. If you have any respect for Star Trek and its fans, please fix this.
There are enough complaints about how loose Cryptic has played with Star Trek lore without them completely ignoring it. Thalaron weapons are universally banned and should not be available to players (unless and until there is a true faction system wherein you can play as a "bad guy").
It's not as if Cryptic couldn't take the exact same weapon and name it something else with zero impact on gameplay with the appropriate technobabble.
Every time I see a Scimitar fire it's Thalaron weapon, I curse the developers. If you have any respect for Star Trek and its fans, please fix this.
They're not universally banned. The Tal Shiar (obviously) don't impose a ban on them. The Borg probably don't. The Elachi most likely don't. The Remans don't.
The only factions that we KNOW ban Thalaron weapons are the Federation and the Klingon Empire.
The only factions that we KNOW ban Thalaron weapons are the Federation and the Klingon Empire.
Not entirely accurate. The Federation banned research into Thalaron technology, yet because they were entirely experimental (so far as described canon goes) there wasn't actually a ban on the use of said tech (why ban the use of something that doesn't exist?).
The Klingon Empire's stance on Thalaron tech is never described so far as I know since they didn't play a role in the whole Shinzon situation.
Not entirely accurate. The Federation banned research into Thalaron technology, yet because they were entirely experimental (so far as described canon goes) there wasn't actually a ban on the use of said tech (why ban the use of something that doesn't exist?).
The Klingon Empire's stance on Thalaron tech is never described so far as I know since they didn't play a role in the whole Shinzon situation.
Well in-game during the Cloaked Intentions storyline (SPOILERS) Temer describes Thalaron weapons as "the tools of cowards" at one point, suggesting that the Empire has a ban on them, or at least disapproves of their use.
In the Federation, it is actually said by Admiral T'nae that they're illegal at one point (I think).
Illegal or not the fact is we now have ships with Federation crews doing Federation missions while spouting Federation rhetoric wandering around shooting Thalaron weapons at people... Romulan Warbird or not. Same for the KDF. It's clearly wrong but they are doing it. And we are tolerating it. So how long until they really jump the shark?
Illegal or not the fact is we now have ships with Federation crews doing Federation missions while spouting Federation rhetoric wandering around shooting Thalaron weapons at people... Romulan Warbird or not. Same for the KDF. It's clearly wrong but they are doing it. And we are tolerating it. So how long until they really jump the shark?
Well in-game during the Cloaked Intentions storyline (SPOILERS) Temer describes Thalaron weapons as "the tools of cowards" at one point, suggesting that the Empire has a ban on them, or at least disapproves of their use.
Disliking something and having a statutory ban on the use of said something are two entirely different things.
Disliking something and having a statutory ban on the use of said something are two entirely different things.
True, but the Klingons would never use a weapon they considered "cowardly" since that's synonymous with "dishonourable" to them. That means they effectively do not permit the use of Thalaron Weapons within their Empire. That's effectively a ban.
Yes because cloaking devices are the paramount of honor ... oh and firing under cloak.
In war, there is nothing more honourable than victory. There's a difference between using an enhanced battle cloak and discriminatingly targeting military vessel and using thalaron weapons which can't discriminate between military and civilian, and which leaves the area poisoned for decades afterwards.
Also, firing while cloaked still gives your foe a chance to fight back - it still unleashes the call to battle. Thalaron weapons don't.
True, but the Klingons would never use a weapon they considered "cowardly" since that's synonymous with "dishonourable" to them. That means they effectively do not permit the use of Thalaron Weapons within their Empire. That's effectively a ban.
Just like they'd never launch sneak attacks, deploy bio-weapons or target civilian and non-combatant populations?
Right.
What part of disliking a tactic does not mean that tactic isn't available for use don't you get? Especially in the context of non-Klingon philosophies in the KDF.
In war, there is nothing more honourable than victory. There's a difference between using an enhanced battle cloak and discriminatingly targeting military vessel and using thalaron weapons which can't discriminate between military and civilian, and which leaves the area poisoned for decades afterwards.
Also, firing while cloaked still gives your foe a chance to fight back - it still unleashes the call to battle. Thalaron weapons don't.
For starters, Thalaron weapons don't linger. If they did, Picard et al would have been ashed the moment they walked into the Senate Chamber on Romulus, as would your Captain when they flew into the Great Bloom.
Secondly, do you really not the see the hypocrisy of your own argument? "Anything goes, except when it doesn't". Either there's limits, or there aren't. You don't get to have it both ways.
In war, there is nothing more honourable than victory. There's a difference between using an enhanced battle cloak and discriminatingly targeting military vessel and using thalaron weapons which can't discriminate between military and civilian, and which leaves the area poisoned for decades afterwards.
Also, firing while cloaked still gives your foe a chance to fight back - it still unleashes the call to battle. Thalaron weapons don't.
According to a DS9 episode, the one where Worf is accused of shooting a civilian Klingon ship, the Klingon advocate say it's fine to shoot on a civilian ship during wartime, for a Klingon.
Also, the Thalaron don't leave any kind of radiation or anything. It kill quickly anything on its path. I think it was banned because it could easily be used for massive genocide, and turn a war to mutual anihilation. However, it's a very humane weapon, considering it kill far more quickly than a lot of weapon currently in use (plasma, phaser on Andorian, melee weapon, even dirsuptor).
If I had the choice of being burned to death by plasma, cut in pieces by a sword, or killed quickly by Thalaron, I'd take the Thalaron every time.
1.) While the Federation has banned the research of Thalaron Radiation. That does not mean other Factions have chosen so. And while the Federation/StarFleet can attempt to apply political pressure on its Allies to destroy or not use these weapons. The Prime Directive strictly prohibits them from directly involving themselves in the matter of disposing of Thalaron Weapons. Not that there arent other more subvert means of disabling or destroying them through sabatoge. Now if a group, targeted by anyone possessing Thalaron Weapons, was to ask for the Federations protection or assistance then it be a different story. But as of right now. The Federation has no legal means of stepping in. (The incident involving Picard was the exception...It was revealed that Shinzon was planning an attack on Earth using the Thalaron Weapon Scimater. This direct threat to the Federation gave StarFleet the authority to step in and dispose of the Thalaron threat.)
2.) The Federation is at war on multiple fronts. The most direct threat in the beginning is the Klingons in an all out war in the Eta Eridani Sector. So much of the Federations resources are going into this that literally attention to other important matters to the Federation. Like Exploration or Aid to those who cant possibly exhange anything valuable in return are put the the wayside. Not far from the Warfront, and quite literally to the opposite flank is the True Way using insurgency tactics to subvert and eliminate Federation presence in Cardassian Space. Guerilla Warfare is notorious for being a blackhole for military resources and without the proper attention can cause Super Powers to shutdown shop and go home. The Cardassians have no means to combat these Terrorists and so it falls heavily on the Federation to deal with this Terrorist group. Theres also the rare but troubling intrusions from the mirror universe. While they havent made any successful intrusions into the Prime Universe. Theres no telling whats waiting on the otherside. In the Oriellius Sector, where both Klingons and the Federation vie for Deferei resources theyre fighting off skirmishes with Breen. The Federation is also pushing much needed resources into Gamma Orionis to stop another push from the Borg into the Alpha Quadrant. Youve got Tholians popping up in areas far outside of their borders where they rarely tread. As for Romulan Space, well everyone thinks they have the legitimate claim as the successors to the Romulan Star Empire. For awhile there Empress Sela has the dominating position until she goes missing. Youve got Remans rebelling and D'Tan establishing a Romulan Republic. Theres the Tal Shiar behaving in its own interests. Some Romulans siding with the Federation while others side with the Klingons.
3.) Politically and resource wise, the current Galactic crisis would logically take precedence over the Romulans and Remans using Thalaron Weapons. When the Federation is pressured on all sides with fighting, starvation and disease. Is it smart for the Federation to take a vocal stand against the Romulans and Remans maintaining weapons that they do not approve of? If they do, do they risk alienating their new allies and possibly finding themselves at the other end of those weapons? And to top it off, pushing those same allies into the ranks of the Klingons where others have already gone. Is that what the Federation needs right now? Angry Romulans and Remans shoving WMDs down their throats? Would it then be better to ally yourself with them, gain their trust and in doing so gain an opportunity to influence them against using these Thalaron Weapons.
4.) The Federation, while the most popular faction. In terms of conditions are by far the worst off, even compared to the shattered Romulans. Theyre spread too thin. Even for a massive Faction as the Federation. Im shocked that there isnt talk in game through NPCs of Federation Planets starving or finding it hard to deal with disease and illness. As these would be prominent in a time in which the Federation has so much committed to dire situations that surround their borders. Morally speaking, yes the Federation has an obligation to stand against such use of WMDs. And it does put the Federation in a bad light that their current Allies are running around with them loaded up on every Scimater Class. But the Federation, just like during the Dominon War, are in serious trouble and they dont have the luxury of being morally above it all. Their entire infrastructure is at risk of failing and their military might is not only strained but taking a beating it may not be able to recover from. At this point its a smarter move to ignore, or atleast tolerate to a point the WMDs in the arsenals of their Allies. The Federation needs all the help it can get and sticking their nose in the air when theyve been figuratively knocked to their knees would be more harmful then good.
By the way Cryptic. Youre welcome that I went ahead and gave you a better answer to your self created dilemma than your writers probably thought about..if they thought about it at all.. Free of charge.
According to a DS9 episode, the one where Worf is accused of shooting a civilian Klingon ship, the Klingon advocate say it's fine to shoot on a civilian ship during wartime, for a Klingon.
Also, the Thalaron don't leave any kind of radiation or anything. It kill quickly anything on its path. I think it was banned because it could easily be used for massive genocide, and turn a war to mutual anihilation. However, it's a very humane weapon, considering it kill far more quickly than a lot of weapon currently in use (plasma, phaser on Andorian, melee weapon, even dirsuptor).
If I had the choice of being burned to death by plasma, cut in pieces by a sword, or killed quickly by Thalaron, I'd take the Thalaron every time.
I'm 99.9% sure that in the Great Bloom mission they DO say that the shields have to be kept up or something because there is still radiation in the system from the Scimitar explosion.
1.) While the Federation has banned the research of Thalaron Radiation. That does not mean other Factions have chosen so. And while the Federation/StarFleet can attempt to apply political pressure on its Allies to destroy or not use these weapons. The Prime Directive strictly prohibits them from directly involving themselves in the matter of disposing of Thalaron Weapons. Not that there arent other more subvert means of disabling or destroying them through sabatoge. Now if a group, targeted by anyone possessing Thalaron Weapons, was to ask for the Federations protection or assistance then it be a different story. But as of right now. The Federation has no legal means of stepping in. (The incident involving Picard was the exception...It was revealed that Shinzon was planning an attack on Earth using the Thalaron Weapon Scimater. This direct threat to the Federation gave StarFleet the authority to step in and dispose of the Thalaron threat.)
2.) The Federation is at war on multiple fronts. The most direct threat in the beginning is the Klingons in an all out war in the Eta Eridani Sector. So much of the Federations resources are going into this that literally attention to other important matters to the Federation. Like Exploration or Aid to those who cant possibly exhange anything valuable in return are put the the wayside. Not far from the Warfront, and quite literally to the opposite flank is the True Way using insurgency tactics to subvert and eliminate Federation presence in Cardassian Space. Guerilla Warfare is notorious for being a blackhole for military resources and without the proper attention can cause Super Powers to shutdown shop and go home. The Cardassians have no means to combat these Terrorists and so it falls heavily on the Federation to deal with this Terrorist group. Theres also the rare but troubling intrusions from the mirror universe. While they havent made any successful intrusions into the Prime Universe. Theres no telling whats waiting on the otherside. In the Oriellius Sector, where both Klingons and the Federation vie for Deferei resources theyre fighting off skirmishes with Breen. The Federation is also pushing much needed resources into Gamma Orionis to stop another push from the Borg into the Alpha Quadrant. Youve got Tholians popping up in areas far outside of their borders where they rarely tread. As for Romulan Space, well everyone thinks they have the legitimate claim as the successors to the Romulan Star Empire. For awhile there Empress Sela has the dominating position until she goes missing. Youve got Remans rebelling and D'Tan establishing a Romulan Republic. Theres the Tal Shiar behaving in its own interests. Some Romulans siding with the Federation while others side with the Klingons.
3.) Politically and resource wise, the current Galactic crisis would logically take precedence over the Romulans and Remans using Thalaron Weapons. When the Federation is pressured on all sides with fighting, starvation and disease. Is it smart for the Federation to take a vocal stand against the Romulans and Remans maintaining weapons that they do not approve of? If they do, do they risk alienating their new allies and possibly finding themselves at the other end of those weapons? And to top it off, pushing those same allies into the ranks of the Klingons where others have already gone. Is that what the Federation needs right now? Angry Romulans and Remans shoving WMDs down their throats? Would it then be better to ally yourself with them, gain their trust and in doing so gain an opportunity to influence them against using these Thalaron Weapons.
4.) The Federation, while the most popular faction. In terms of conditions are by far the worst off, even compared to the shattered Romulans. Theyre spread too thin. Even for a massive Faction as the Federation. Im shocked that there isnt talk in game through NPCs of Federation Planets starving or finding it hard to deal with disease and illness. As these would be prominent in a time in which the Federation has so much committed to dire situations that surround their borders. Morally speaking, yes the Federation has an obligation to stand against such use of WMDs. And it does put the Federation in a bad light that their current Allies are running around with them loaded up on every Scimater Class. But the Federation, just like during the Dominon War, are in serious trouble and they dont have the luxury of being morally above it all. Their entire infrastructure is at risk of failing and their military might is not only strained but taking a beating it may not be able to recover from. At this point its a smarter move to ignore, or atleast tolerate to a point the WMDs in the arsenals of their Allies. The Federation needs all the help it can get and sticking their nose in the air when theyve been figuratively knocked to their knees would be more harmful then good.
By the way Cryptic. Youre welcome that I went ahead and gave you a better answer to your self created dilemma than your writers probably thought about..if they thought about it at all.. Free of charge.
Okay, that explains the Federation. Now explain why the Klingons wouldn't end the alliance.
Research on thalaron weapons are forbidden in the federation. The romulan republic is not a part of the federation, but why would the federation tolerate an alliance with a race who has this kind of weapons?
So if the new scimitar has thalaron weapons, the alliance between federation and the romulan republic has to end or has to debate. These weapons are a risk for this alliance.
Exactly. One more reason Romulans and Feds should never be allied.
Comments
These two are much more relevant:
Article 14, Section 31
Special Order 66715
And, now you're distorting my words. I never said that the Federation refused to help Romulus, I said Vulcan did.
And the point still stands that the Federation didn't actually do a lot to help the Romulans during the crisis.
As for everything else, those points were to demonstrate that the Federation deems annihilation of a planet acceptable under certain circumstances, not that they are constantly willing to do so. GO24 proves that they're prepared to do so, even if they didn't. "For the Uniform" shows, by the simple fact that there WEREN'T repercussions, that they're willing to accept planetary devastation (albeit, so long as no one was actually KILLED).
I'll give you the point on Star Trek: Insurrection, except that Dougherty actually STATES that the Federation Council was aware of what was happening. The Enterprise was trying to tell the Federation's civilian population, which would have forced the Council to re-assess the situation. The Federation government was certainly aware of what was happening.
I would point out that S31 tried to wipe out the Founders, but since they're not "officially" sanctioned, I don't consider their actions to be analogous with the Federation's wishes.
I just find it hypocritical that the Federation is against other civilisations destroying planets when they THEMSELVES have protocols in place to do just that! It's like the U.S. having Nuclear Weapons (and China, Russia, and the U.K. (just to prove I'm not biased towards my own country)) and then throwing a tantrum when a much smaller nation tries to develop Nuclear Power (and by default, Nuclear Weapons).
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Not familiar with 66715, but I honestly don't consider S31 to be Federation.
In DS9, Sloan even says that A14, S31 is in "the original Federation Charter" suggesting that it was since amended. It probably wasn't, and for the sake of staying true to canon we'll say it wasn't, but S31 (the agency) is considered a rogue organisation. Their actions don't necessarily reflect the will of the Federation Council.
Anyway, what is Special Order 66715?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
"Starfleet has the authority to neutralize security threats to DS9 by any means necessary"
Of course what's being omitted is that said order is only mentioned during one of Sloan's holo-simulations.
So it's probably some of Sloan's S31 rubbish?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Unknown. No other reference to said order is made anywhere.
I didn't distort your words, I took what was presented to me and went from that. If you presented your information differently from what you were intending, I'm sorry.
Dougherty did state that, yes, but he was also keeping a lot of things hidden from the council, no doubt to proceed with the mission without anyone being the wiser. This was a situation of the Council was not told the whole story, and an admiral who wasn't a fan of telling the whole truth when it came ot advancing his career. They mentioned this or made allusions to this several times during the dialogue between Dougherty and Ru'Afo.
However it was never canonically stated if Dougherty was telling the truth that the council knew of the extent of the operation, since the guy kinda died towards the later third of the movie, so accuracy is vague on this point.
I consider GO24 to be, as someone else stated, a Red Herring. Though that doesn't stop them from canonically existing, of course. So I must concede this point, even if it was created by sub-par writing(as well as an unclear idea of what the Federation actually was, at the time)
And really I can't argue your counter-counter point to the DS9 episode, All I can do is say I wish they would consider what a "hard choice" for a captain would be, that one was poorly thought out. The Federation has no reason to be that desperate against the Maquis.
So. Long story short, thinking about it, you're right on the case of GO24 and For the Uniform. Not so much on Insurrection, but that can also be put up for debate because of how vague everything ultimately was.
I'm not saying the Federation is necessarily right, but then they don't have a definite means of destroying all life on entire worlds as far as I know. (At least not one that's -supposed- to end all life. Project Genesis, anyone?)
(I'm not wanting to say much on the real world situation past what I stated in the last post I made because tbh I'm tired of politics lately, lol)
Because in real life and in Star Trek, not having a decent enough military opens you up to being exploited by others that are stronger.
Why?
Because they can, and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
With strong warships in a decent enough military, the Romulans (whichever subgroup you refer to), aren't exactly a pushover. The broken up Romulan Star Empire is weak and disunified, but its subgroups are still something to be concerned with.
All of Sloans "lies" held some seed of truth. There's probably something on teh books for high priority installations but "Any means necessary" may be an exaggeration.
Actually, that would be the original United Earth Starfleet Charter. Section 31 was around long before the Federation existed.
And Section 31 is considered an (unacknowledged) department within Starfleet.
And as for folks calling General Order 24 a "red herring", you can't cherry pick and exclude things that doesn't fit into the later, idealized portrayal of the Federation. If General Order 24 was mentioned in TOS as "being on the books", then it was. Blaming bad writing and inconsistencies in the early days of TOS is a mechanism to avoid that uncomfortable fact.
It was never stated if it was repealed in later years. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was later revealed to have been.
It seems most likely to me that it is something along the lines of a declaration of all-out war, and not something as specific as destroying a planet. Needless to say "all out" war means killing the enemy by any means available. In Kirk's case he ordered the ship to bombard the planet with photon torpedos. The end result would have been utterly destroying the civilization on the planet, but most of the populace would have simply been collateral damage. The order wasn't carried out but the intent of Kirk's actions was to show the Eminians that he was capable of nullifying the threat they posed to the Federation. Some people say he was bluffing, but I don't beleive it. Kirk was pursuing an aggressive diplomatic stance. He didn't want to massacre the Eminians, but if they kept trying to kill his crew he would have little choice in the matter. So he used a theatrical way of explaining to the Eminians what he was go9ng to do to them if they didn't try to be peaceful.
My character Tsin'xing
Do you know what "a red herring" is? It's a distraction, and it's irrelevant.
Perhaps it would be helpful if you read the entire post in which I described it as such:
By no means am I idealizing the Federation (hahaha, as if), nor denying the existence of General Order 24. I am, instead, pointing out that there are even MORE damning regulations, special orders, etc., on the books.
The reason I didn't say the "Starfleet Charter" was because there were differences between the UE and UFP, meaning what was in United Earth's Charter wasn't necessarily in UFP's Charter, but Sloan does specifically state that A14, S31 was part of the UFP Charter as well, hence why I referred to that as the most recent official mention of S31.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
It's not as if Cryptic couldn't take the exact same weapon and name it something else with zero impact on gameplay with the appropriate technobabble.
Every time I see a Scimitar fire it's Thalaron weapon, I curse the developers. If you have any respect for Star Trek and its fans, please fix this.
They're not universally banned. The Tal Shiar (obviously) don't impose a ban on them. The Borg probably don't. The Elachi most likely don't. The Remans don't.
The only factions that we KNOW ban Thalaron weapons are the Federation and the Klingon Empire.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Not entirely accurate. The Federation banned research into Thalaron technology, yet because they were entirely experimental (so far as described canon goes) there wasn't actually a ban on the use of said tech (why ban the use of something that doesn't exist?).
The Klingon Empire's stance on Thalaron tech is never described so far as I know since they didn't play a role in the whole Shinzon situation.
Well in-game during the Cloaked Intentions storyline (SPOILERS) Temer describes Thalaron weapons as "the tools of cowards" at one point, suggesting that the Empire has a ban on them, or at least disapproves of their use.
In the Federation, it is actually said by Admiral T'nae that they're illegal at one point (I think).
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Just before they fry the coke? (NC reference)
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
with BACON...
Disliking something and having a statutory ban on the use of said something are two entirely different things.
True, but the Klingons would never use a weapon they considered "cowardly" since that's synonymous with "dishonourable" to them. That means they effectively do not permit the use of Thalaron Weapons within their Empire. That's effectively a ban.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
In war, there is nothing more honourable than victory. There's a difference between using an enhanced battle cloak and discriminatingly targeting military vessel and using thalaron weapons which can't discriminate between military and civilian, and which leaves the area poisoned for decades afterwards.
Also, firing while cloaked still gives your foe a chance to fight back - it still unleashes the call to battle. Thalaron weapons don't.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Just like they'd never launch sneak attacks, deploy bio-weapons or target civilian and non-combatant populations?
Right.
What part of disliking a tactic does not mean that tactic isn't available for use don't you get? Especially in the context of non-Klingon philosophies in the KDF.
For starters, Thalaron weapons don't linger. If they did, Picard et al would have been ashed the moment they walked into the Senate Chamber on Romulus, as would your Captain when they flew into the Great Bloom.
Secondly, do you really not the see the hypocrisy of your own argument? "Anything goes, except when it doesn't". Either there's limits, or there aren't. You don't get to have it both ways.
Also, the Thalaron don't leave any kind of radiation or anything. It kill quickly anything on its path. I think it was banned because it could easily be used for massive genocide, and turn a war to mutual anihilation. However, it's a very humane weapon, considering it kill far more quickly than a lot of weapon currently in use (plasma, phaser on Andorian, melee weapon, even dirsuptor).
If I had the choice of being burned to death by plasma, cut in pieces by a sword, or killed quickly by Thalaron, I'd take the Thalaron every time.
1.) While the Federation has banned the research of Thalaron Radiation. That does not mean other Factions have chosen so. And while the Federation/StarFleet can attempt to apply political pressure on its Allies to destroy or not use these weapons. The Prime Directive strictly prohibits them from directly involving themselves in the matter of disposing of Thalaron Weapons. Not that there arent other more subvert means of disabling or destroying them through sabatoge. Now if a group, targeted by anyone possessing Thalaron Weapons, was to ask for the Federations protection or assistance then it be a different story. But as of right now. The Federation has no legal means of stepping in. (The incident involving Picard was the exception...It was revealed that Shinzon was planning an attack on Earth using the Thalaron Weapon Scimater. This direct threat to the Federation gave StarFleet the authority to step in and dispose of the Thalaron threat.)
2.) The Federation is at war on multiple fronts. The most direct threat in the beginning is the Klingons in an all out war in the Eta Eridani Sector. So much of the Federations resources are going into this that literally attention to other important matters to the Federation. Like Exploration or Aid to those who cant possibly exhange anything valuable in return are put the the wayside. Not far from the Warfront, and quite literally to the opposite flank is the True Way using insurgency tactics to subvert and eliminate Federation presence in Cardassian Space. Guerilla Warfare is notorious for being a blackhole for military resources and without the proper attention can cause Super Powers to shutdown shop and go home. The Cardassians have no means to combat these Terrorists and so it falls heavily on the Federation to deal with this Terrorist group. Theres also the rare but troubling intrusions from the mirror universe. While they havent made any successful intrusions into the Prime Universe. Theres no telling whats waiting on the otherside. In the Oriellius Sector, where both Klingons and the Federation vie for Deferei resources theyre fighting off skirmishes with Breen. The Federation is also pushing much needed resources into Gamma Orionis to stop another push from the Borg into the Alpha Quadrant. Youve got Tholians popping up in areas far outside of their borders where they rarely tread. As for Romulan Space, well everyone thinks they have the legitimate claim as the successors to the Romulan Star Empire. For awhile there Empress Sela has the dominating position until she goes missing. Youve got Remans rebelling and D'Tan establishing a Romulan Republic. Theres the Tal Shiar behaving in its own interests. Some Romulans siding with the Federation while others side with the Klingons.
3.) Politically and resource wise, the current Galactic crisis would logically take precedence over the Romulans and Remans using Thalaron Weapons. When the Federation is pressured on all sides with fighting, starvation and disease. Is it smart for the Federation to take a vocal stand against the Romulans and Remans maintaining weapons that they do not approve of? If they do, do they risk alienating their new allies and possibly finding themselves at the other end of those weapons? And to top it off, pushing those same allies into the ranks of the Klingons where others have already gone. Is that what the Federation needs right now? Angry Romulans and Remans shoving WMDs down their throats? Would it then be better to ally yourself with them, gain their trust and in doing so gain an opportunity to influence them against using these Thalaron Weapons.
4.) The Federation, while the most popular faction. In terms of conditions are by far the worst off, even compared to the shattered Romulans. Theyre spread too thin. Even for a massive Faction as the Federation. Im shocked that there isnt talk in game through NPCs of Federation Planets starving or finding it hard to deal with disease and illness. As these would be prominent in a time in which the Federation has so much committed to dire situations that surround their borders. Morally speaking, yes the Federation has an obligation to stand against such use of WMDs. And it does put the Federation in a bad light that their current Allies are running around with them loaded up on every Scimater Class. But the Federation, just like during the Dominon War, are in serious trouble and they dont have the luxury of being morally above it all. Their entire infrastructure is at risk of failing and their military might is not only strained but taking a beating it may not be able to recover from. At this point its a smarter move to ignore, or atleast tolerate to a point the WMDs in the arsenals of their Allies. The Federation needs all the help it can get and sticking their nose in the air when theyve been figuratively knocked to their knees would be more harmful then good.
By the way Cryptic. Youre welcome that I went ahead and gave you a better answer to your self created dilemma than your writers probably thought about..if they thought about it at all.. Free of charge.
I'm 99.9% sure that in the Great Bloom mission they DO say that the shields have to be kept up or something because there is still radiation in the system from the Scimitar explosion.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Okay, that explains the Federation. Now explain why the Klingons wouldn't end the alliance.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
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/thread