Thalaron is banned by the federation. Its use is depicted as profoundly evil. In the current lore, the federation, romulan republic, and KDF all would (and do, as depicted on nimbus and other story missions) not allow anyone to use this weapon.
Yet players are getting it as a new toy.
The scimitar thalaron burst in ST: Nemesis was designed to destroy all life on earth. This is the weapon we are being given as a bonus to use in space combat. Regularly.
Why not give us VX gas and Sarin while we're at it? Maybe some planetary nuke stations so we can go commit genocide. This is what thalaron is for. This is the equivalent of making a WWII video game and creating a player faction which rounds up jews and puts them in gas chambers. ST: Ethnic cleansing, anyone?
I don't care about the game mechanic. It's a big cone attack that blows up ships. Just name it something else.
Thalaron radiation represents depravity at its most extreme. Giving this to players indicates apathy to the same degree. We're just getting some pretty green lights to shoot at things, even though its purpose is mass killing on a planetary scale.
Does Cryptic even care about the lore anymore?
You are absolutely right! The Federation, as we all know, is completely against Planetary Armageddon and will not commit it under any circumstances!
Accept General Order 24, Star Trek: Insurrection, the Hobus Supernova (to an extent. The Vulcans refused to save the Romulans from the supernova, and Vulcan is a Federation member. I also didn't see Starfleet to fussed over helping), Star Trek: Deep Space Nine: "For the Uniform"...
Need I continue?
Oh, and the Klingons certainly don't have a problem with planetary destruction. They bombed the Cardassians back to the stone age, after all. Or, rather, the Klingons and Romulans finished the job after the Dominion started it.
Which reminds me, why didn't the Federation have a problem with the Klingons and Romulans essentially tearing the Cardassian Union a new one after the DW?
You are absolutely right! The Federation, as we all know, is completely against Planetary Armageddon and will not commit it under any circumstances!
Accept General Order 24, Star Trek: Insurrection, the Hobus Supernova (to an extent. The Vulcans refused to save the Romulans from the supernova, and Vulcan is a Federation member. I also didn't see Starfleet to fussed over helping), Star Trek: Deep Space Nine: "For the Uniform"...
Need I continue?
No, you need to stop right there. It was not the Vulcans that refused to aid the Romulans, it was the Vulcan Science Academy. You can't blame the whole species for that, unless you consider yourself and everyone else in your country liable for every single action your government takes.
Furthermore, Starfleet was unaware and the Federation Council condemned the Vulcan Sicence Academy actions when they found out. More than 15 Federation member species cut their diplomatic ties and withdrew their ambassadors from Vulcan due to this.
So, yeah, the Federation has a huge issue with things like these.
Which reminds me, why didn't the Federation have a problem with the Klingons and Romulans essentially tearing the Cardassian Union a new one after the DW?
What? You do realize that the Federation saved the Cardassians after DW, right? If they didn't insist to make the Cardassian Union a Federation protectorate they would have been turned into a Klingon battleground for target practice or a Romulan slave colony.
No, it couldn't do the same thing.
The bombing of Dresden resulted in roughly 25,000 dead, given the population of over 630,000 that's about 4%.
The most thorough bombing in history was done in North Korea, which resulted in about 25% death toll.
Nuking Hiroshima had an initial death toll of about 30% (not counting radiation).
A ship trying to achieve a 100% casualty rate on a planetary scale will be busy for months.
And the difference is that it will be using its weapons, that can be employed for various things including defend itself for this purpose.
What other purpose do Thalaron weapons have aside from genocide?
Shooting at Borg ships intent on destroying you? That's a defensive purpose.
Suppose your ship is disabled, with no conventional weapons capacity? That would make the Thalaron Generator your only defence.
Besides, c'mon... no player is going to use these on a planet! They don't have the option to! Even the Thalaron Weapons we've already seen used by ships in-game have been low-yield compared to what Shinzon's was capable of. Our ships can withstand one of the Scimitar's radiation blasts, and it's ineffective beyond 10 km, with only a 90-degree firing arc. That makes it a lot less useful as a WMD.
No, you need to stop right there. It was not the Vulcans that refused to aid the Romulans, it was the Vulcan Science Academy. You can't blame the whole species for that, unless you consider yourself and everyone else in your country liable for every single action your government takes.
Furthermore, Starfleet was unaware and the Federation Council condemned the Vulcan Sicence Academy actions when they found out. More than 15 Federation member species cut their diplomatic ties and withdrew their ambassadors from Vulcan due to this.
So, yeah, the Federation has a huge issue with things like these.
What? You do realize that the Federation saved the Cardassians after DW, right? If they didn't insist to make the Cardassian Union a Federation protectorate they would have been turned into a Klingon battleground for target practice or a Romulan slave colony.
After several years had passed. I'm talking immediately after the Battle of Cardassia Prime. I remember reading somewhere in the Path to 2409 that there were several... unfavourable actions taken by the Klingons and Romulans in the aftermath of the Battle and Treaty of Bajor.
No, you need to stop right there. It was not the Vulcans that refused to aid the Romulans, it was the Vulcan Science Academy. You can't blame the whole species for that, unless you consider yourself and everyone else in your country liable for every single action your government takes.
Furthermore, Starfleet was unaware and the Federation Council condemned the Vulcan Sicence Academy actions when they found out. More than 15 Federation member species cut their diplomatic ties and withdrew their ambassadors from Vulcan due to this.
So, yeah, the Federation has a huge issue with things like these.
Okay, you really think that Jean Luc Picard didn't tell the Federation Council that Romulus was going to explode? You really think that Data didn't tell Starfleet why the Enterprise was charging into Romulan Territory?
Also, the US Government were the ones who ordered the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People say that "America" or "the Americans" bombed Japan - they're referring to the Government, which the Science Academy would doubtless answer to. If the Science Academy refused to help Romulus and Remus, I'm relatively sure that the Vulcan High Command was cool with it.
Back to my original point; does Starfleet, or does it not, find Planetary Armageddon acceptable under certain circumstances, such as General Order 24, ST: Insurrection, and DS9: For the Uniform?
Okay, you really think that Jean Luc Picard didn't tell the Federation Council that Romulus was going to explode? You really think that Data didn't tell Starfleet why the Enterprise was charging into Romulan Territory?
Also, the US Government were the ones who ordered the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People say that "America" or "the Americans" bombed Japan - they're referring to the Government, which the Science Academy would doubtless answer to. If the Science Academy refused to help Romulus and Remus, I'm relatively sure that the Vulcan High Command was cool with it.
Back to my original point; does Starfleet, or does it not, find Planetary Armageddon acceptable under certain circumstances, such as General Order 24, ST: Insurrection, and DS9: For the Uniform?
General Order was used in the TOS, a series that, despite the fact that it founded a series that we all know and love, was laden with plot holes and continuity errors. Canonically, yes, there was a General Order 24 that called for "The extinction of all life on a planet", but given the context of such an order, as well as the writing of the time, I highl doubt it was meant in the way that you're using it in this argument. Of course, it was attempted to misuse this order in-series as well, but both times that GO24 was actually used, it was never carried out.
For the Uniform, that one strikes me as a case of either there should have been repercussions for that or the writers wanted to face Sisko with a "anti-hero" moment. Also, comparitively, he -was- acting on his own, with no sanctions or approval from the Federation. Though no one actually died, this episode presents a bit of a writing conundrum.
Insurrection, I don't know if you can use that as an example either, because although the entire mess was shady as hell, the original plan set forth by the "Federation" was to relocate, not exterminate, the Ba'Ku. Now, I say "Federation" because there are many allusions and hints that this was -not- a deal that was voted on, or put forth to the Council at large, and Admiral Dougherty's desperation to keep the Enterprise from exposing their operation definitely lends credence to this. Particularly when Ru'Afo asks him if he really think the rest of the federation members will agree with what he's doing if it becomes public knowledge that Picard is "fighting the good fight".
Now, as to your first point, again, if the Vulcan High Command was "cool with it", that doesn't mean the Federation as a whole was "cool with it". If America didn't want to go to war with someone but, say, Ohio was "cool with it", do you say "Oh no, America wants to go to war with such and such"? No, you say "Wow, Ohio, what the fudge is wrong with you" and deal accordingly.
General Order was used in the TOS, a series that, despite the fact that it founded a series that we all know and love, was laden with plot holes and continuity errors. Canonically, yes, there was a General Order 24 that called for "The extinction of all life on a planet", but given the context of such an order, as well as the writing of the time, I highl doubt it was meant in the way that you're using it in this argument. Of course, it was attempted to misuse this order in-series as well, but both times that GO24 was actually used, it was never carried out.
For the Uniform, that one strikes me as a case of either there should have been repercussions for that or the writers wanted to face Sisko with a "anti-hero" moment. Also, comparitively, he -was- acting on his own, with no sanctions or approval from the Federation. Though no one actually died, this episode presents a bit of a writing conundrum.
Insurrection, I don't know if you can use that as an example either, because although the entire mess was shady as hell, the original plan set forth by the "Federation" was to relocate, not exterminate, the Ba'Ku. Now, I say "Federation" because there are many allusions and hints that this was -not- a deal that was voted on, or put forth to the Council at large, and Admiral Dougherty's desperation to keep the Enterprise from exposing their operation definitely lends credence to this. Particularly when Ru'Afo asks him if he really think the rest of the federation members will agree with what he's doing if it becomes public knowledge that Picard is "fighting the good fight".
Now, as to your first point, again, if the Vulcan High Command was "cool with it", that doesn't mean the Federation as a whole was "cool with it". If America didn't want to go to war with someone but, say, Ohio was "cool with it", do you say "Oh no, America wants to go to war with such and such"? No, you say "Wow, Ohio, what the fudge is wrong with you" and deal accordingly.
And, now you're distorting my words. I never said that the Federation refused to help Romulus, I said Vulcan did.
And the point still stands that the Federation didn't actually do a lot to help the Romulans during the crisis.
As for everything else, those points were to demonstrate that the Federation deems annihilation of a planet acceptable under certain circumstances, not that they are constantly willing to do so. GO24 proves that they're prepared to do so, even if they didn't. "For the Uniform" shows, by the simple fact that there WEREN'T repercussions, that they're willing to accept planetary devastation (albeit, so long as no one was actually KILLED).
I'll give you the point on Star Trek: Insurrection, except that Dougherty actually STATES that the Federation Council was aware of what was happening. The Enterprise was trying to tell the Federation's civilian population, which would have forced the Council to re-assess the situation. The Federation government was certainly aware of what was happening.
I would point out that S31 tried to wipe out the Founders, but since they're not "officially" sanctioned, I don't consider their actions to be analogous with the Federation's wishes.
I just find it hypocritical that the Federation is against other civilisations destroying planets when they THEMSELVES have protocols in place to do just that! It's like the U.S. having Nuclear Weapons (and China, Russia, and the U.K. (just to prove I'm not biased towards my own country)) and then throwing a tantrum when a much smaller nation tries to develop Nuclear Power (and by default, Nuclear Weapons).
These two are much more relevant:
Article 14, Section 31
Special Order 66715
Not familiar with 66715, but I honestly don't consider S31 to be Federation.
In DS9, Sloan even says that A14, S31 is in "the original Federation Charter" suggesting that it was since amended. It probably wasn't, and for the sake of staying true to canon we'll say it wasn't, but S31 (the agency) is considered a rogue organisation. Their actions don't necessarily reflect the will of the Federation Council.
And, now you're distorting my words. I never said that the Federation refused to help Romulus, I said Vulcan did.
And the point still stands that the Federation didn't actually do a lot to help the Romulans during the crisis.
As for everything else, those points were to demonstrate that the Federation deems annihilation of a planet acceptable under certain circumstances, not that they are constantly willing to do so. GO24 proves that they're prepared to do so, even if they didn't. "For the Uniform" shows, by the simple fact that there WEREN'T repercussions, that they're willing to accept planetary devastation (albeit, so long as no one was actually KILLED).
I'll give you the point on Star Trek: Insurrection, except that Dougherty actually STATES that the Federation Council was aware of what was happening. The Enterprise was trying to tell the Federation's civilian population, which would have forced the Council to re-assess the situation. The Federation government was certainly aware of what was happening.
I would point out that S31 tried to wipe out the Founders, but since they're not "officially" sanctioned, I don't consider their actions to be analogous with the Federation's wishes.
I just find it hypocritical that the Federation is against other civilisations destroying planets when they THEMSELVES have protocols in place to do just that! It's like the U.S. having Nuclear Weapons (and China, Russia, and the U.K. (just to prove I'm not biased towards my own country)) and then throwing a tantrum when a much smaller nation tries to develop Nuclear Power (and by default, Nuclear Weapons).
I didn't distort your words, I took what was presented to me and went from that. If you presented your information differently from what you were intending, I'm sorry.
Dougherty did state that, yes, but he was also keeping a lot of things hidden from the council, no doubt to proceed with the mission without anyone being the wiser. This was a situation of the Council was not told the whole story, and an admiral who wasn't a fan of telling the whole truth when it came ot advancing his career. They mentioned this or made allusions to this several times during the dialogue between Dougherty and Ru'Afo.
However it was never canonically stated if Dougherty was telling the truth that the council knew of the extent of the operation, since the guy kinda died towards the later third of the movie, so accuracy is vague on this point.
I consider GO24 to be, as someone else stated, a Red Herring. Though that doesn't stop them from canonically existing, of course. So I must concede this point, even if it was created by sub-par writing(as well as an unclear idea of what the Federation actually was, at the time)
And really I can't argue your counter-counter point to the DS9 episode, All I can do is say I wish they would consider what a "hard choice" for a captain would be, that one was poorly thought out. The Federation has no reason to be that desperate against the Maquis.
So. Long story short, thinking about it, you're right on the case of GO24 and For the Uniform. Not so much on Insurrection, but that can also be put up for debate because of how vague everything ultimately was.
I'm not saying the Federation is necessarily right, but then they don't have a definite means of destroying all life on entire worlds as far as I know. (At least not one that's -supposed- to end all life. Project Genesis, anyone?)
(I'm not wanting to say much on the real world situation past what I stated in the last post I made because tbh I'm tired of politics lately, lol)
Remember even if roleplaying youre still a Federation Officer....Outside of our sphere its possible for the Romulans and Federation to have talks over these Thalaron weapons and never know about it...mostly because there isnt a CNN blasting this info all over the FedNet.
Id say that the Federation and KDF would be more interested in the pacifists having Scimitar class warships.
Why do peaceful Romulans need a fleet of these, other than to get back to the old RSE
Because in real life and in Star Trek, not having a decent enough military opens you up to being exploited by others that are stronger.
Why?
Because they can, and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
With strong warships in a decent enough military, the Romulans (whichever subgroup you refer to), aren't exactly a pushover. The broken up Romulan Star Empire is weak and disunified, but its subgroups are still something to be concerned with.
All of Sloans "lies" held some seed of truth. There's probably something on teh books for high priority installations but "Any means necessary" may be an exaggeration.
Not familiar with 66715, but I honestly don't consider S31 to be Federation.
In DS9, Sloan even says that A14, S31 is in "the original Federation Charter" suggesting that it was since amended. It probably wasn't, and for the sake of staying true to canon we'll say it wasn't, but S31 (the agency) is considered a rogue organisation. Their actions don't necessarily reflect the will of the Federation Council.
Anyway, what is Special Order 66715?
Actually, that would be the original United Earth Starfleet Charter. Section 31 was around long before the Federation existed.
And Section 31 is considered an (unacknowledged) department within Starfleet.
And as for folks calling General Order 24 a "red herring", you can't cherry pick and exclude things that doesn't fit into the later, idealized portrayal of the Federation. If General Order 24 was mentioned in TOS as "being on the books", then it was. Blaming bad writing and inconsistencies in the early days of TOS is a mechanism to avoid that uncomfortable fact.
It was never stated if it was repealed in later years. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was later revealed to have been.
Actually, that would be the original United Earth Starfleet Charter. Section 31 was around long before the Federation existed.
And Section 31 is considered an (unacknowledged) department within Starfleet.
And as for folks calling General Order 24 a "red herring", you can't cherry pick and exclude things that doesn't fit into the later, idealized portrayal of the Federation. If General Order 24 was mentioned in TOS as "being on the books", then it was. Blaming bad writing and inconsistencies in the early days of TOS is a mechanism to avoid that uncomfortable fact.
It was never stated if it was repealed in later years. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was later revealed to have been.
Well, we have never been given the full text of GO24. Garth mentioned that it applied to races that were openly hostile to the Federation, and when Kirk used it he was confronting a race that was trying to wipe out the crew of the Enterprise.
It seems most likely to me that it is something along the lines of a declaration of all-out war, and not something as specific as destroying a planet. Needless to say "all out" war means killing the enemy by any means available. In Kirk's case he ordered the ship to bombard the planet with photon torpedos. The end result would have been utterly destroying the civilization on the planet, but most of the populace would have simply been collateral damage. The order wasn't carried out but the intent of Kirk's actions was to show the Eminians that he was capable of nullifying the threat they posed to the Federation. Some people say he was bluffing, but I don't beleive it. Kirk was pursuing an aggressive diplomatic stance. He didn't want to massacre the Eminians, but if they kept trying to kill his crew he would have little choice in the matter. So he used a theatrical way of explaining to the Eminians what he was go9ng to do to them if they didn't try to be peaceful.
Actually, that would be the original United Earth Starfleet Charter. Section 31 was around long before the Federation existed.
And Section 31 is considered an (unacknowledged) department within Starfleet.
And as for folks calling General Order 24 a "red herring", you can't cherry pick and exclude things that doesn't fit into the later, idealized portrayal of the Federation. If General Order 24 was mentioned in TOS as "being on the books", then it was. Blaming bad writing and inconsistencies in the early days of TOS is a mechanism to avoid that uncomfortable fact.
It was never stated if it was repealed in later years. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was later revealed to have been.
Do you know what "a red herring" is? It's a distraction, and it's irrelevant.
Perhaps it would be helpful if you read the entire post in which I described it as such:
These two are much more relevant:
Article 14, Section 31
Special Order 66715
By no means am I idealizing the Federation (hahaha, as if), nor denying the existence of General Order 24. I am, instead, pointing out that there are even MORE damning regulations, special orders, etc., on the books.
Actually, that would be the original United Earth Starfleet Charter. Section 31 was around long before the Federation existed.
And Section 31 is considered an (unacknowledged) department within Starfleet.
And as for folks calling General Order 24 a "red herring", you can't cherry pick and exclude things that doesn't fit into the later, idealized portrayal of the Federation. If General Order 24 was mentioned in TOS as "being on the books", then it was. Blaming bad writing and inconsistencies in the early days of TOS is a mechanism to avoid that uncomfortable fact.
It was never stated if it was repealed in later years. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was later revealed to have been.
The reason I didn't say the "Starfleet Charter" was because there were differences between the UE and UFP, meaning what was in United Earth's Charter wasn't necessarily in UFP's Charter, but Sloan does specifically state that A14, S31 was part of the UFP Charter as well, hence why I referred to that as the most recent official mention of S31.
There are enough complaints about how loose Cryptic has played with Star Trek lore without them completely ignoring it. Thalaron weapons are universally banned and should not be available to players (unless and until there is a true faction system wherein you can play as a "bad guy").
It's not as if Cryptic couldn't take the exact same weapon and name it something else with zero impact on gameplay with the appropriate technobabble.
Every time I see a Scimitar fire it's Thalaron weapon, I curse the developers. If you have any respect for Star Trek and its fans, please fix this.
There are enough complaints about how loose Cryptic has played with Star Trek lore without them completely ignoring it. Thalaron weapons are universally banned and should not be available to players (unless and until there is a true faction system wherein you can play as a "bad guy").
It's not as if Cryptic couldn't take the exact same weapon and name it something else with zero impact on gameplay with the appropriate technobabble.
Every time I see a Scimitar fire it's Thalaron weapon, I curse the developers. If you have any respect for Star Trek and its fans, please fix this.
They're not universally banned. The Tal Shiar (obviously) don't impose a ban on them. The Borg probably don't. The Elachi most likely don't. The Remans don't.
The only factions that we KNOW ban Thalaron weapons are the Federation and the Klingon Empire.
The only factions that we KNOW ban Thalaron weapons are the Federation and the Klingon Empire.
Not entirely accurate. The Federation banned research into Thalaron technology, yet because they were entirely experimental (so far as described canon goes) there wasn't actually a ban on the use of said tech (why ban the use of something that doesn't exist?).
The Klingon Empire's stance on Thalaron tech is never described so far as I know since they didn't play a role in the whole Shinzon situation.
Not entirely accurate. The Federation banned research into Thalaron technology, yet because they were entirely experimental (so far as described canon goes) there wasn't actually a ban on the use of said tech (why ban the use of something that doesn't exist?).
The Klingon Empire's stance on Thalaron tech is never described so far as I know since they didn't play a role in the whole Shinzon situation.
Well in-game during the Cloaked Intentions storyline (SPOILERS) Temer describes Thalaron weapons as "the tools of cowards" at one point, suggesting that the Empire has a ban on them, or at least disapproves of their use.
In the Federation, it is actually said by Admiral T'nae that they're illegal at one point (I think).
Illegal or not the fact is we now have ships with Federation crews doing Federation missions while spouting Federation rhetoric wandering around shooting Thalaron weapons at people... Romulan Warbird or not. Same for the KDF. It's clearly wrong but they are doing it. And we are tolerating it. So how long until they really jump the shark?
Illegal or not the fact is we now have ships with Federation crews doing Federation missions while spouting Federation rhetoric wandering around shooting Thalaron weapons at people... Romulan Warbird or not. Same for the KDF. It's clearly wrong but they are doing it. And we are tolerating it. So how long until they really jump the shark?
Well in-game during the Cloaked Intentions storyline (SPOILERS) Temer describes Thalaron weapons as "the tools of cowards" at one point, suggesting that the Empire has a ban on them, or at least disapproves of their use.
Disliking something and having a statutory ban on the use of said something are two entirely different things.
Disliking something and having a statutory ban on the use of said something are two entirely different things.
True, but the Klingons would never use a weapon they considered "cowardly" since that's synonymous with "dishonourable" to them. That means they effectively do not permit the use of Thalaron Weapons within their Empire. That's effectively a ban.
Comments
You are absolutely right! The Federation, as we all know, is completely against Planetary Armageddon and will not commit it under any circumstances!
Accept General Order 24, Star Trek: Insurrection, the Hobus Supernova (to an extent. The Vulcans refused to save the Romulans from the supernova, and Vulcan is a Federation member. I also didn't see Starfleet to fussed over helping), Star Trek: Deep Space Nine: "For the Uniform"...
Need I continue?
Oh, and the Klingons certainly don't have a problem with planetary destruction. They bombed the Cardassians back to the stone age, after all. Or, rather, the Klingons and Romulans finished the job after the Dominion started it.
Which reminds me, why didn't the Federation have a problem with the Klingons and Romulans essentially tearing the Cardassian Union a new one after the DW?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
No, you need to stop right there. It was not the Vulcans that refused to aid the Romulans, it was the Vulcan Science Academy. You can't blame the whole species for that, unless you consider yourself and everyone else in your country liable for every single action your government takes.
Furthermore, Starfleet was unaware and the Federation Council condemned the Vulcan Sicence Academy actions when they found out. More than 15 Federation member species cut their diplomatic ties and withdrew their ambassadors from Vulcan due to this.
So, yeah, the Federation has a huge issue with things like these.
What? You do realize that the Federation saved the Cardassians after DW, right? If they didn't insist to make the Cardassian Union a Federation protectorate they would have been turned into a Klingon battleground for target practice or a Romulan slave colony.
Shooting at Borg ships intent on destroying you? That's a defensive purpose.
Suppose your ship is disabled, with no conventional weapons capacity? That would make the Thalaron Generator your only defence.
Besides, c'mon... no player is going to use these on a planet! They don't have the option to! Even the Thalaron Weapons we've already seen used by ships in-game have been low-yield compared to what Shinzon's was capable of. Our ships can withstand one of the Scimitar's radiation blasts, and it's ineffective beyond 10 km, with only a 90-degree firing arc. That makes it a lot less useful as a WMD.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
After several years had passed. I'm talking immediately after the Battle of Cardassia Prime. I remember reading somewhere in the Path to 2409 that there were several... unfavourable actions taken by the Klingons and Romulans in the aftermath of the Battle and Treaty of Bajor.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Okay, you really think that Jean Luc Picard didn't tell the Federation Council that Romulus was going to explode? You really think that Data didn't tell Starfleet why the Enterprise was charging into Romulan Territory?
Also, the US Government were the ones who ordered the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People say that "America" or "the Americans" bombed Japan - they're referring to the Government, which the Science Academy would doubtless answer to. If the Science Academy refused to help Romulus and Remus, I'm relatively sure that the Vulcan High Command was cool with it.
Back to my original point; does Starfleet, or does it not, find Planetary Armageddon acceptable under certain circumstances, such as General Order 24, ST: Insurrection, and DS9: For the Uniform?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
General Order was used in the TOS, a series that, despite the fact that it founded a series that we all know and love, was laden with plot holes and continuity errors. Canonically, yes, there was a General Order 24 that called for "The extinction of all life on a planet", but given the context of such an order, as well as the writing of the time, I highl doubt it was meant in the way that you're using it in this argument. Of course, it was attempted to misuse this order in-series as well, but both times that GO24 was actually used, it was never carried out.
For the Uniform, that one strikes me as a case of either there should have been repercussions for that or the writers wanted to face Sisko with a "anti-hero" moment. Also, comparitively, he -was- acting on his own, with no sanctions or approval from the Federation. Though no one actually died, this episode presents a bit of a writing conundrum.
Insurrection, I don't know if you can use that as an example either, because although the entire mess was shady as hell, the original plan set forth by the "Federation" was to relocate, not exterminate, the Ba'Ku. Now, I say "Federation" because there are many allusions and hints that this was -not- a deal that was voted on, or put forth to the Council at large, and Admiral Dougherty's desperation to keep the Enterprise from exposing their operation definitely lends credence to this. Particularly when Ru'Afo asks him if he really think the rest of the federation members will agree with what he's doing if it becomes public knowledge that Picard is "fighting the good fight".
Now, as to your first point, again, if the Vulcan High Command was "cool with it", that doesn't mean the Federation as a whole was "cool with it". If America didn't want to go to war with someone but, say, Ohio was "cool with it", do you say "Oh no, America wants to go to war with such and such"? No, you say "Wow, Ohio, what the fudge is wrong with you" and deal accordingly.
These two are much more relevant:
Article 14, Section 31
Special Order 66715
And, now you're distorting my words. I never said that the Federation refused to help Romulus, I said Vulcan did.
And the point still stands that the Federation didn't actually do a lot to help the Romulans during the crisis.
As for everything else, those points were to demonstrate that the Federation deems annihilation of a planet acceptable under certain circumstances, not that they are constantly willing to do so. GO24 proves that they're prepared to do so, even if they didn't. "For the Uniform" shows, by the simple fact that there WEREN'T repercussions, that they're willing to accept planetary devastation (albeit, so long as no one was actually KILLED).
I'll give you the point on Star Trek: Insurrection, except that Dougherty actually STATES that the Federation Council was aware of what was happening. The Enterprise was trying to tell the Federation's civilian population, which would have forced the Council to re-assess the situation. The Federation government was certainly aware of what was happening.
I would point out that S31 tried to wipe out the Founders, but since they're not "officially" sanctioned, I don't consider their actions to be analogous with the Federation's wishes.
I just find it hypocritical that the Federation is against other civilisations destroying planets when they THEMSELVES have protocols in place to do just that! It's like the U.S. having Nuclear Weapons (and China, Russia, and the U.K. (just to prove I'm not biased towards my own country)) and then throwing a tantrum when a much smaller nation tries to develop Nuclear Power (and by default, Nuclear Weapons).
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Not familiar with 66715, but I honestly don't consider S31 to be Federation.
In DS9, Sloan even says that A14, S31 is in "the original Federation Charter" suggesting that it was since amended. It probably wasn't, and for the sake of staying true to canon we'll say it wasn't, but S31 (the agency) is considered a rogue organisation. Their actions don't necessarily reflect the will of the Federation Council.
Anyway, what is Special Order 66715?
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"Starfleet has the authority to neutralize security threats to DS9 by any means necessary"
Of course what's being omitted is that said order is only mentioned during one of Sloan's holo-simulations.
So it's probably some of Sloan's S31 rubbish?
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Unknown. No other reference to said order is made anywhere.
I didn't distort your words, I took what was presented to me and went from that. If you presented your information differently from what you were intending, I'm sorry.
Dougherty did state that, yes, but he was also keeping a lot of things hidden from the council, no doubt to proceed with the mission without anyone being the wiser. This was a situation of the Council was not told the whole story, and an admiral who wasn't a fan of telling the whole truth when it came ot advancing his career. They mentioned this or made allusions to this several times during the dialogue between Dougherty and Ru'Afo.
However it was never canonically stated if Dougherty was telling the truth that the council knew of the extent of the operation, since the guy kinda died towards the later third of the movie, so accuracy is vague on this point.
I consider GO24 to be, as someone else stated, a Red Herring. Though that doesn't stop them from canonically existing, of course. So I must concede this point, even if it was created by sub-par writing(as well as an unclear idea of what the Federation actually was, at the time)
And really I can't argue your counter-counter point to the DS9 episode, All I can do is say I wish they would consider what a "hard choice" for a captain would be, that one was poorly thought out. The Federation has no reason to be that desperate against the Maquis.
So. Long story short, thinking about it, you're right on the case of GO24 and For the Uniform. Not so much on Insurrection, but that can also be put up for debate because of how vague everything ultimately was.
I'm not saying the Federation is necessarily right, but then they don't have a definite means of destroying all life on entire worlds as far as I know. (At least not one that's -supposed- to end all life. Project Genesis, anyone?)
(I'm not wanting to say much on the real world situation past what I stated in the last post I made because tbh I'm tired of politics lately, lol)
Because in real life and in Star Trek, not having a decent enough military opens you up to being exploited by others that are stronger.
Why?
Because they can, and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
With strong warships in a decent enough military, the Romulans (whichever subgroup you refer to), aren't exactly a pushover. The broken up Romulan Star Empire is weak and disunified, but its subgroups are still something to be concerned with.
All of Sloans "lies" held some seed of truth. There's probably something on teh books for high priority installations but "Any means necessary" may be an exaggeration.
Actually, that would be the original United Earth Starfleet Charter. Section 31 was around long before the Federation existed.
And Section 31 is considered an (unacknowledged) department within Starfleet.
And as for folks calling General Order 24 a "red herring", you can't cherry pick and exclude things that doesn't fit into the later, idealized portrayal of the Federation. If General Order 24 was mentioned in TOS as "being on the books", then it was. Blaming bad writing and inconsistencies in the early days of TOS is a mechanism to avoid that uncomfortable fact.
It was never stated if it was repealed in later years. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was later revealed to have been.
It seems most likely to me that it is something along the lines of a declaration of all-out war, and not something as specific as destroying a planet. Needless to say "all out" war means killing the enemy by any means available. In Kirk's case he ordered the ship to bombard the planet with photon torpedos. The end result would have been utterly destroying the civilization on the planet, but most of the populace would have simply been collateral damage. The order wasn't carried out but the intent of Kirk's actions was to show the Eminians that he was capable of nullifying the threat they posed to the Federation. Some people say he was bluffing, but I don't beleive it. Kirk was pursuing an aggressive diplomatic stance. He didn't want to massacre the Eminians, but if they kept trying to kill his crew he would have little choice in the matter. So he used a theatrical way of explaining to the Eminians what he was go9ng to do to them if they didn't try to be peaceful.
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Do you know what "a red herring" is? It's a distraction, and it's irrelevant.
Perhaps it would be helpful if you read the entire post in which I described it as such:
By no means am I idealizing the Federation (hahaha, as if), nor denying the existence of General Order 24. I am, instead, pointing out that there are even MORE damning regulations, special orders, etc., on the books.
The reason I didn't say the "Starfleet Charter" was because there were differences between the UE and UFP, meaning what was in United Earth's Charter wasn't necessarily in UFP's Charter, but Sloan does specifically state that A14, S31 was part of the UFP Charter as well, hence why I referred to that as the most recent official mention of S31.
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It's not as if Cryptic couldn't take the exact same weapon and name it something else with zero impact on gameplay with the appropriate technobabble.
Every time I see a Scimitar fire it's Thalaron weapon, I curse the developers. If you have any respect for Star Trek and its fans, please fix this.
They're not universally banned. The Tal Shiar (obviously) don't impose a ban on them. The Borg probably don't. The Elachi most likely don't. The Remans don't.
The only factions that we KNOW ban Thalaron weapons are the Federation and the Klingon Empire.
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Not entirely accurate. The Federation banned research into Thalaron technology, yet because they were entirely experimental (so far as described canon goes) there wasn't actually a ban on the use of said tech (why ban the use of something that doesn't exist?).
The Klingon Empire's stance on Thalaron tech is never described so far as I know since they didn't play a role in the whole Shinzon situation.
Well in-game during the Cloaked Intentions storyline (SPOILERS) Temer describes Thalaron weapons as "the tools of cowards" at one point, suggesting that the Empire has a ban on them, or at least disapproves of their use.
In the Federation, it is actually said by Admiral T'nae that they're illegal at one point (I think).
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Just before they fry the coke? (NC reference)
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with BACON...
Disliking something and having a statutory ban on the use of said something are two entirely different things.
True, but the Klingons would never use a weapon they considered "cowardly" since that's synonymous with "dishonourable" to them. That means they effectively do not permit the use of Thalaron Weapons within their Empire. That's effectively a ban.
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