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Extreme lag/ stuttering and launcher issues [please read post #175 (Pg. 18)]

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  • pappaborgpappaborg Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    all i have been able to do is duty officer missions and fill star base projects.
  • aelrhianaaelrhiana Member Posts: 285 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I had the same issue earlier. I was fine (for the most part) down at the Academy or standing still in ESD, but the second I loaded into any map...

    Everything stopped.

    The CE runs were the worst. I have no had any lag issues in the CE until today. I would load in and sit at the spawn point, my ship unable to do anything but twitch back and forth, full impulse getting me nowhere fast! It took 5 minutes for the game to regester that I even had teammates.

    I couldn't change chat channels, I couldn't do anything.

    You think it's bad now, wait until May 21st. I'd bet real cash that the server is going to crash and burn that day. This game could really benefit from additional servers to handle the load.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ask4spock1ask4spock1 Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    We're still investigating this, but we don't actually believe this to be related to Neverwinter's Open Beta launch today as we don't believe this to be a network issue at this time. The launcher problem this morning was a separate issue that affected all Cryptic games and any PWE games that use a Cryptic launcher (e.g. Blacklight).

    Thanks for your patience as we continue to investigate.

    Cheers,

    Brandon =/\=


    I too am experiencing SEVERE wait time for the launcher to load. :mad:
  • aoav160aoav160 Member Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Call your admins in. A lot of server not responding's for friends and my self. GYST
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    ugh, was pissing me off, crashes and lag spikes.
  • punktribblepunktribble Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    ugh, was pissing me off, crashes and lag spikes.

    but hey....it's not the Neverwinter beta...........:rolleyes:
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Country: US.

    ISP: Centurylink

    Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7600]
    Copyright (c) 2009 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

    tracert patchserver.crypticstudios.com

    Tracing route to patchserver.crypticstudios.com [208.95.185.41]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.168.0.1
    2 * 49 ms 44 ms 67.41.239.69
    3 44 ms 45 ms 44 ms 67-41-234-33.slkc.qwest.net [67.41.234.33]
    4 63 ms 62 ms 62 ms sjp-brdr-04.inet.qwest.net [67.14.34.38]
    5 76 ms 76 ms 71 ms te0-2-0-6.ccr22.sjc03.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54
    .13.193]
    6 76 ms 75 ms 77 ms 154.54.89.97
    7 76 ms 71 ms 71 ms te0-3-0-5.mpd22.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54
    .86.189]
    8 132 ms 129 ms 141 ms te0-1-0-3.mpd22.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54
    .24.106]
    9 157 ms 160 ms 154 ms te0-7-0-33.mpd22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.5
    4.25.78]
    10 134 ms 134 ms 136 ms te0-2-0-2.ccr22.bos01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54
    .45.250]
    11 128 ms 124 ms 125 ms te4-2.ccr01.bos06.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.25
    4]
    12 133 ms 124 ms 124 ms 38.111.40.114
    13 131 ms 133 ms 134 ms 208.95.185.41

    Trace complete.






    contacting nettest server..
    Local IP:xxxxxxx
    Ping: 125.1 msec
    Port: 80: 53 KB/sec 3 KB/sec 57 KB/sec 500
    Port: 80: 53 KB/sec 2 KB/sec 56 KB/sec 500
    Port: 443: 65 KB/sec 3 KB/sec 69 KB/sec 500
    Port: 443: 53 KB/sec 3 KB/sec 57 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7255: 44 KB/sec 13 KB/sec 62 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7255: 46 KB/sec 4 KB/sec 53 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7003: 62 KB/sec 3 KB/sec 66 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7003: 40 KB/sec 4 KB/sec 69 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7202: 57 KB/sec 4 KB/sec 70 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7202: 43 KB/sec 3 KB/sec 55 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7499: 51 KB/sec 4 KB/sec 63 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7499: 36 KB/sec 2 KB/sec 70 KB/sec 500
    Port: 80: 49 KB/sec 4 KB/sec 62 KB/sec 500
    Idle NIC bandwidth Send: 0 KB/sec Recv: 0 KB/sec
    hit return to exit







    I hope this lets me play. :(
  • marshalericdavidmarshalericdavid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The game has been lagging badly today but something interesting has been happening with it. Players who play seem to be better then I ever have seen. Completed The Cure Found (Elite) using a character at only tier 1 of both the Romulan and Omega Reputation and got the optional despite the lagging. The entire team played great.

    Another time I played the same mission but with a different character and the mission was completed with a failed optional thanks to some people leaving. Usually am unable to complete the mission twice in a row with random people because of bad players.

    What have your experiences been like today?
  • hyplhypl Member Posts: 3,719 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Here's what my experiences were like today:

    Me: Hmm, STO is lagging yet again... *logs off for the day*

    Yup... :P
  • jadekitsune2jadekitsune2 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I've played a few STF's today... and let me tell you. out of the 4 I played, 2 of them I ended up having to quit out of because of horrible lag.

    I have a 100mb/s connection from my ISP, live in a centralized location, have no problems with packet loss nor have I had any connection issues in the past 2 weeks since I've returned to STO.

    However today the game has been terrible. Horrible rubber-banding in ESD, Insane amounts of lag in the STF's, even flying around sector space has rubber banding and an in-ability to access areas once I've flown to them.

    I'd like to say that generally, the over-all gameplay of STO is great, and it's very very rare I have lag problems. However it's just been. Well frankly quite unfun.

    Thankfully I've been able to continue DOF assignments and the like, but when I'm suffering lag from even visiting my own ships bridge, there's an issue going on.
    Boldly going, where no woman has gone before.
  • aoav160aoav160 Member Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    My Speed with STO on

    and trcert

    Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7601]
    Copyright (c) 2009 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

    C:\>tracert patchserver.crypticstudios.com

    Tracing route to patchserver.crypticstudios.com [208.95.185.41]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:


    3 8 ms 10 ms 8 ms te-4-2-ur02.anoka.mn.minn.comcast.net [68.85.165
    .141]
    4 9 ms 12 ms 12 ms te-0-2-0-7-ar01.roseville.mn.minn.comcast.net [6
    9.139.176.2]
    5 17 ms 21 ms 19 ms pos-0-15-0-0-cr01.350ecermak.il.ibone.comcast.ne
    t [68.86.94.81]
    6 17 ms 16 ms 18 ms pos-1-5-0-0-pe01.350ecermak.il.ibone.comcast.net
    [68.86.87.126]
    7 55 ms 56 ms 56 ms te0-7-0-17.ccr21.ord03.atlas.cogentco.com [154.5
    4.10.253]
    8 58 ms 59 ms 53 ms be2005.ccr21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.7
    3]
    9 81 ms 81 ms 69 ms te0-7-0-26.ccr22.bos01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.5
    4.43.190]
    10 254 ms 202 ms 200 ms te3-2.ccr01.bos06.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.46.
    130]
    11 60 ms 54 ms 57 ms 38.111.40.114
    12 51 ms 51 ms 50 ms 208.95.185.41

    Trace complete.

    C:\>
  • sfhqsfhq Member Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Location: Georgia

    C:\Users\Administrator>tracert patchserver.crypticstudios.com

    Tracing route to patchserver.crypticstudios.com [208.95.185.41]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms (localIPaddress)
    2 39 ms 40 ms 40 ms adsl-74-190-188-1.asm.bellsouth.net [74.190.188.
    1]
    3 41 ms 41 ms 40 ms 70.159.176.67
    4 41 ms 43 ms 43 ms 70.159.176.43
    5 44 ms 46 ms 44 ms 12.81.16.96
    6 40 ms 40 ms 40 ms 12.81.16.15
    7 40 ms 41 ms 40 ms 74.175.192.90
    8 43 ms 43 ms 43 ms cr1.attga.ip.att.net [12.122.141.186]
    9 44 ms 43 ms 43 ms gar3.brhal.ip.att.net [12.122.141.189]
    10 * 121 ms 189 ms 192.205.36.238
    11 42 ms 41 ms 47 ms te0-0-0-1.mpd22.atl01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54
    .3.145]
    12 53 ms 59 ms 53 ms te0-3-0-2.mpd22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54
    .28.233]
    13 59 ms 59 ms 60 ms te0-0-0-2.mpd22.jfk02.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54
    .5.254]
    14 65 ms 64 ms 69 ms te0-3-0-2.ccr22.bos01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54
    .44.30]
    15 65 ms 64 ms 64 ms te3-2.ccr01.bos06.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.46.
    130]
    16 77 ms 71 ms 74 ms 38.111.40.114
    17 64 ms 64 ms 65 ms 208.95.185.41

    Trace complete.

    contacting nettest server..
    Local IP: xxxxxxxxx
    Ping: 63.8 msec
    Port: 80: 44 KB/sec 3 KB/sec 48 KB/sec 500
    Port: 80: 291 KB/sec 12 KB/sec 351 KB/sec 500
    Port: 443: 38 KB/sec 2 KB/sec 47 KB/sec 500
    Port: 443: 503 KB/sec 19 KB/sec 535 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7255: 146 KB/sec 6 KB/sec 161 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7255: 125 KB/sec 5 KB/sec 139 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7003: 301 KB/sec 11 KB/sec 324 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7003: 317 KB/sec 12 KB/sec 339 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7202: 533 KB/sec 20 KB/sec 567 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7202: 39 KB/sec 2 KB/sec 41 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7499: 45 KB/sec 2 KB/sec 52 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7499: 196 KB/sec 8 KB/sec 217 KB/sec 500
    Port: 80: 268 KB/sec 13 KB/sec 289 KB/sec 500
    Idle NIC bandwidth Send: 0 KB/sec Recv: 9 KB/sec
    hit return to exit
    ---
    "We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."
    Sincerely,
    The Cube Assimilating Your Ship Right Now
  • guilli88guilli88 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Better be compensation for this! free 500 zen for everyone! Can't do anything that involves complex calculations from the server's end such as missions and STF's. Chatting in public channels is about the only thing.

    sig

    http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5451/om71.jpg

    It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
  • punktribblepunktribble Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    guilli88 wrote: »
    Better be compensation for this! free 500 zen for everyone! Can't do anything that involves complex calculations from the server's end such as missions and STF's. Chatting in public channels is about the only thing.

    are you still on? the you're playing.....not trying to be evil about it :D
  • montrosiummontrosium Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Just did a nettest:

    Port: 80: 975 KB/sec 30 KB/sec 1029 KB/sec 500
    Port: 80: 1206 KB/sec 39 KB/sec 1283 KB/sec 500
    Port: 443: 1070 KB/sec 33 KB/sec 1133 KB/sec 500
    Port: 443: 1030 KB/sec 32 KB/sec 1091 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7255: 1022 KB/sec 30 KB/sec 1084 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7255: 1093 KB/sec 33 KB/sec 1156 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7003: 1080 KB/sec 33 KB/sec 1142 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7003: 1235 KB/sec 41 KB/sec 1314 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7202: 1037 KB/sec 32 KB/sec 1096 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7202: 1147 KB/sec 37 KB/sec 1218 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7499: 1031 KB/sec 31 KB/sec 1090 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7499: 1165 KB/sec 41 KB/sec 1241 KB/sec 500

    Im in the Northeast of the US on Time Warner.

    Still seeing lag on STF's and CE dailies.

    tracert results:
    Tracing route to patchserver.crypticstudios.com [208.95.185.41]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms wl.Belkin [192.168.2.1]
    2 9 ms 8 ms 7 ms 10.96.176.1
    3 9 ms 9 ms 8 ms ten1-2-1.hlwlme08-rtr001.ne.northeast.rr.com [24
    .31.157.70]
    4 14 ms 15 ms 15 ms rdc-204-210-69-14.ne.northeast.rr.com [204.210.6
    9.14]
    5 33 ms 39 ms 39 ms rdc-204-210-69-49.ne.northeast.rr.com [204.210.6
    9.49]
    6 41 ms 39 ms 39 ms ae-5-0.cr0.nyc30.tbone.rr.com [66.109.6.74]
    7 34 ms 37 ms 33 ms 66.109.1.35
    8 69 ms 72 ms 74 ms te0-7-0-35.ccr21.jfk05.atlas.cogentco.com [154.5
    4.13.81]
    9 78 ms 75 ms * te0-1-0-5.mpd22.jfk02.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54
    .5.209]
    10 79 ms 81 ms 74 ms te0-3-0-2.ccr22.bos01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54
    .44.30]
    11 76 ms 77 ms 79 ms te3-2.ccr01.bos06.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.46.
    130]
    12 51 ms 39 ms 48 ms 38.111.40.114
    13 39 ms 38 ms 42 ms 208.95.185.41
  • wilsonfrontierwilsonfrontier Member Posts: 32 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Considering the number of people having issues, there has to be something going on centrally. We have folks in our fleet from US, UK, Australia, South America, and everyone's reporting issues.
  • marcaptain2010marcaptain2010 Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Today I had the longest lag that I've ever had. 130 seconds!
  • ddesjardinsddesjardins Member Posts: 3,056 Media Corps
    edited May 2013
    Players from both fleets I'm members in have been reporting significant lag from Germany, the UK, US and Canada.

    It's a new feature. 'Slow Motion' Live Play.
  • decroniadecronia Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I just went off to tag things, collect plant/water samples and observe wildlife on New Romulus as anything involving combat was just not going to happen, so much rubber banding I thought I was in a temporal flux. Though I did manage to get over 700 radiation reports so a few marks bonus for me there, there has to a be a bright side.
  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    jelly0 wrote: »
    I dont think its user end tbh, I dont believe in coincidences and since NW went into open beta today and the chat is shared then the network must be as well.

    Actually... I couldn't go online yesterday. AT ALL. After logging off around 10 pm CET, I found myself spending an hour trying to get onto the STO forums (or anywhere else on the internet, for that matter) with very little success.

    Had to go back to playing Settlers IV in an Aeneid-inspired (if I butchered the name, tell me. :P) run of the Aeneas scenario for another hour before going to bed. :D

    Oddly enough, my younger brother and sister have absolutely no trouble getting to www.neopets.com, my younger brother managed to get to Bing, and their connection to Steam was just fine until shortly after I logged off, whereas I couldn't access Google OR Bing, didn't even bother with Neopets, and was completely cut off from Steam. (the latter lasting the entire day)

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
  • aspheasphe Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I'm not sure if a 'tracert' to the patchserver is very useful. Lag seems to strike hard, regardless of the ping to the patchserver.

    Overall, my STF experience is rather lag-free. I usually only encounter lag during 'large' events, by that I mean CC, Tholian RA, Fleet Defence where there are a large number of objects onscreen. It is not a consistent problem for me, as I might run a few captains through the same event, back to back but only enounter lag during one of them. Aside from 'crowded events', on occasion I might have lag in orbit around Qo'nos/Academy/ESD but that usually clears up quickly (or if I'm on New Romulus, I can just change instances and it goes away.)

    During these lag episdoes, I can use the ingame netgraph to see lag spikes (spikes, which will cause what many call 'rubber banding', but at the same time, I'm running 'ping -t' to the patchserver that gives me a constant average ping that seems lag-free.

    Connecting from Osaka, I'm seeing an average 210ms 'ping -t' to the patchserver while netgraph gives me an average of 1700-1800ms (with spikes reaching 10,000 ms).

    Connecting via London, same level of lag spikes but the ping average to the patchserver drops to 100-110 ms.

    From San Diego, again the same lag spikes, the patchserver average ping drops to 30ms or less.

    Throughout this, no problems patching, either on Holo or Tribble (I just remove a file, then run the patcher. The patching will take place, seeming lag-free up to the maximum 500mb/s that my proxy servers allow).

    Similarly, in the NW beta, not much lag except in crowded areas.


    So far, it tends to get laggy during 15:00 -> 20:00 UTC, with the worst hour usually between 16:00 -> 17:00


    I've also noticed that if lag strikes during say, a CC event. Multiple ships/players will 'leave the team', so to speak while I might have no problems whatsoever.

    A few colleagues at work can also be in the same event as I, yet I might be totally lag free while they might lag out.

    The NPCs don't seem to lag (do a Big Dig, use a stopwatch to see if the NPCs patrols do any 'rubber-banding' or not?), and pinging the patchserver doesn't seem to show any lag spikes, even as I am going through a 2000+ms lag session during a Red Alert.

    It does seem as if the connection to Cryptic is just fine, but once inside the internal network, sometimes, something goes amiss.
  • mashiaimashiai Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    We're still investigating this, but we don't actually believe this to be related to Neverwinter's Open Beta launch today as we don't believe this to be a network issue at this time. The launcher problem this morning was a separate issue that affected all Cryptic games and any PWE games that use a Cryptic launcher (e.g. Blacklight).

    Thanks for your patience as we continue to investigate.

    Cheers,

    Brandon =/\=

    Still happening at 5:25am EST, though nowhere near as bad as it was 12ish hours ago. Getting the lag completly at random, had no problems in Starbase 24, popped into delta volanis to do the 'explore new worlds' daily and started getting the lag again.

    ISP teksavvy
    loc: woodstock, ont, cdn

    Tracing route to patchserver.crypticstudios.com [208.95.185.41]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.1.1
    2 8 ms 7 ms 17 ms 10.125.210.1
    3 14 ms 14 ms 15 ms 24.156.151.161
    4 8 ms 13 ms 16 ms woodstock1.cable.teksavvy.com [24.246.55.78]
    5 15 ms 11 ms 12 ms woodstock1.cable.teksavvy.com [24.246.55.73]
    6 21 ms 12 ms 11 ms 69.196.136.163
    7 11 ms 11 ms 15 ms if-13-0-0.core4.TNK-Toronto.as6453.net [63.243.172.9]
    8 26 ms 26 ms 24 ms if-0-3-2-0.tcore1.CT8-Chicago.as6453.net [63.243.172.34]
    9 29 ms 26 ms 26 ms 64.86.78.26
    10 31 ms 26 ms 26 ms be2004.mpd22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.5.9]
    11 47 ms 47 ms 51 ms te0-3-0-6.ccr22.bos01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.42.250]
    12 110 ms 226 ms 70 ms te4-2.ccr01.bos06.atlas.cogentco.com [66.28.4.254]
    13 56 ms 52 ms 54 ms 38.111.40.114
    14 51 ms 50 ms 50 ms 208.95.185.41

    Trace complete.

    Local IP: 24.212.254.143
    Ping: 49.2 msec
    Port: 80: 1108 KB/sec 35 KB/sec 1169 KB/sec 500
    Port: 80: 1246 KB/sec 42 KB/sec 1316 KB/sec 500
    Port: 443: 1202 KB/sec 38 KB/sec 1269 KB/sec 500
    Port: 443: 1129 KB/sec 36 KB/sec 1191 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7255: 1236 KB/sec 38 KB/sec 1305 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7255: 1055 KB/sec 40 KB/sec 1118 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7003: 1258 KB/sec 40 KB/sec 1328 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7003: 1270 KB/sec 40 KB/sec 1340 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7202: 1136 KB/sec 36 KB/sec 1200 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7202: 1146 KB/sec 35 KB/sec 1210 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7499: 1248 KB/sec 40 KB/sec 1319 KB/sec 500
    Port: 7499: 1152 KB/sec 38 KB/sec 1219 KB/sec 500
    Port: 80: 1147 KB/sec 38 KB/sec 1210 KB/sec 500
    Idle NIC bandwidth Send: 3 KB/sec Recv: 3 KB/sec
  • daddytrekdaddytrek Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Also kept getting kicked off the server and stuttering at the crystal PVE.

    Beyond annoying!!:mad:
  • the1tiggletthe1tigglet Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Surely they are smart enough to NOT have two games using the same servers?!?!

    I mean beyond the gateway system which should be passive at best for showing when people are online and chat channels, it should not cause lag in the games because the chat channels are linked between the games that's just weird.
  • joker13874joker13874 Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    In Italy the game LAG LAG LAG LAG LAG...
    And today I can not even get into the game...
    I want to play Star Trek online, but if you want to launch the beta of another game, you do not have and can not make bad plays us...
    Please solve as soon as possible...
    www.confederazionestellareitaliana.com
    Premade Pvp Falchi Tricolori
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • eurialoeurialo Member Posts: 667 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    too much lag and this not because I have a bad connection, but because PW has overloaded its connection or its server.

    I paid a subscription and I want to play... so solve this problem. :mad:
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
  • guilli88guilli88 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Stuck loading after entering my password.

    sig

    http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5451/om71.jpg

    It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
  • drunkadmiraldrunkadmiral Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Same problem here... for 2 days big lag in all pvp matches :mad:
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Lots of lag. So much so that in a 1v1 I thought my foe was using the romulan placate on me, judging from all the jumping around he was doing.

    I hope they fix it.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • ancalagon021ancalagon021 Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    is 120 post stil not enuf to fix it?
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