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Disruptors are broke

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  • scurry5scurry5 Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    What did i do ??
    Mk XII pitchfork [acc]x4 anyone ?

    This, devs, ground melee weapon. [Pitchfork Mk XII [CrtH]x4], make it happen! XD

    Remember to include the 50% chance to OHKO dev accounts...
  • futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    No, it doesn't mean that. Shut down the pitchfork vendor. :P

    We're not planning on making sweeping changes to game combat or mechanics - such changes would be extremely risky. I think anyone who's seen an alpha strike practically "one-shot" someone can agree that the potential difference between Burst DPS and Sustained DPS in our game is extremely large. You can infer from my opinion here that generally speaking, stuff I make will try to slightly assuage this trend rather than exacerbate it, but that's really all.

    Any plans to change the way Attack Pattern Beta's debuffs stack on targets? Given its short cooldown, it seems more like a sustained DPS ability than a burst ability. And the way it works seems to be the way it was designed to work. On the other hand, it can be a heck of a force-multiplier if you've got a couple of Recluses with Elite Mesh Weavers on the map.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I think anyone who's seen an alpha strike practically "one-shot" someone can agree that the potential difference between Burst DPS and Sustained DPS in our game is extremely large

    The funny part is that while some of the combinations that allow spike have been around for a while, a good portion of it is new.

    At the same time, repeated additions of new layers of ship/class agnostic passive mitigation has pushed more players to focus on spike as much as possible as sustained eventually drowned.

    This is what many of us were talking to Bort about in the (now 5+ month old) "spike vs. pressure" thread.


    Bort told us all, back in Feb, that
    Borticus wrote:
    And I'll re-state the wrench that I'll throw in the gears ... massive alpha strikes and SNB coordination are very real concerns on the opposite end of this spectrum. If we toned down Resists and Regen, it would only serve to amplify these tactics and further destabilize many PvP encounters.

    And yet here we are now, with that situation pushed further down the road that was clear to all of us.

    Sustained has become further marginalized, spike has become more devastating.

    The tactics have been amplified both by power creep, with more to come I'm sure, as well as forcing us into it as other methods of damage dealing have basically dried up.


    Case in point:

    In one update with new DOFFs, we have recieved both DOFFs that allow up to 35% of a player's shields to be completely ignored on use of one of the best spike tools available as well as a DOFF that can add up to 8s to RSP - the poster child for zombie snooze builds - typically increasing duration by 1/2 to 1/3rd.

    An increase in spike potential.

    An increase in passive mitigation, able to nullify any sustained damage.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    all the power creep is anti pressure. it actively counters pressure, wile doing very little to counter spike as it happens. every new defensive thing added hurts pressure more.
  • masterkeychnk5masterkeychnk5 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    No, it doesn't mean that. Shut down the pitchfork vendor. :P

    We're not planning on making sweeping changes to game combat or mechanics - such changes would be extremely risky. I think anyone who's seen an alpha strike practically "one-shot" someone can agree that the potential difference between Burst DPS and Sustained DPS in our game is extremely large. You can infer from my opinion here that generally speaking, stuff I make will try to slightly assuage this trend rather than exacerbate it, but that's really all.

    granted, spike in this game has severely increased (pvp wise) but so did massive resistance, hull and shield hitpoints.

    its just a matter of proper timing on the alpha guy or bad defense/reflexes on the receiving end.

    Massive spike always existed, you cannot nerf down this aspect of a game without severely compromising the other half (pressure,etc)

    Bad ppl will continue to whine if they get 'one shotted' which is (in the current game) not even oneshotting if the target has some decent resist.

    Tacs will find new ways, always, until everything is so nerfed that nobody can kill each other anylonger. tanks, healers will find new ways to properly migate massive spike bursts.

    Sorry but i dont want to go to a game where matches take 5hours to kill stuff or not at all, in the past people complained on how matches could take so long because there was just way too much heal/resist combination, ive been that road, 2.5 hour long matches.

    everyone remember the massive QQn about tac teams, they never changed the way they worked and thats a godsend as tacteam combined with some resist is the best way to counter any alpha (with a big finger towards ensign station and 40 second uptime per second rotating two.

    Cheers,
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not Snakie, MT is!
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    granted, spike in this game has severely increased (pvp wise) but so did massive resistance, hull and shield hitpoints.

    its just a matter of proper timing on the alpha guy or bad defense/reflexes on the receiving end.

    Massive spike always existed, you cannot nerf down this aspect of a game without severely compromising the other half (pressure,etc)

    Bad ppl will continue to whine if they get 'one shotted' which is (in the current game) not even oneshotting if the target has some decent resist.

    Tacs will find new ways, always, until everything is so nerfed that nobody can kill each other anylonger. tanks, healers will find new ways to properly migate massive spike bursts.

    Sorry but i dont want to go to a game where matches take 5hours to kill stuff or not at all, in the past people complained on how matches could take so long because there was just way too much heal/resist combination, ive been that road, 2.5 hour long matches.

    everyone remember the massive QQn about tac teams, they never changed the way they worked and thats a godsend as tacteam combined with some resist is the best way to counter any alpha (with a big finger towards ensign station and 40 second uptime per second rotating two.

    Cheers,

    That's why some folks suggest removing the magic wand healing, increasing base hull/shield amounts, scaling resists based on hull/shield amounts, and then looking at what damage should be done to take things out in a reasonable amount of time.

    Yes, it would remove the vape...but it would not turn into matches where the side that can stay awake the longest wins...

    Introduce a new layer of crits that cause ship wounds, have various "heals" work to try to repair those - with more "realistic" durations/CDs - ability to prevent cascading systems failures...

    Basically, make STO more like Star Trek and less like Spelljammer...
  • edited July 2013
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  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    No, it doesn't mean that. Shut down the pitchfork vendor. :P

    We're not planning on making sweeping changes to game combat or mechanics - such changes would be extremely risky. I think anyone who's seen an alpha strike practically "one-shot" someone can agree that the potential difference between Burst DPS and Sustained DPS in our game is extremely large. You can infer from my opinion here that generally speaking, stuff I make will try to slightly assuage this trend rather than exacerbate it, but that's really all.

    If you are trying to bring the "usefulness gap" between pressure and spike closer together, then why did you recently introduce the single largest boost to spike damage that I've seen since my time playing STO?

    Of course I'm talking about the new Beam Overload Duty Officer. When you put that duty officer on a Romulan escort with a Dual Beam Bank that is coming out of cloak for the additional damage bonus, have all the +crit Romulan bridge officers (which is another recent boost to spike), have all the passives that add shield penetration, use Directed Energy Modulation on your Alpha strike, then do a back-to-back beam overload with Marion (the DEM doff) so your power doesn't drop, in combination with cannon rapid fire, you might as well not even have shields equipped.

    Spike damage is at an all-time high in STO, and it's due to recent additions that have been made to the game. The attack I just described will destroy someone's hull in less than 2 seconds (closer to 1 second I would say). The shield facing on the target will stay high (usually above 50%) but their hull just gets shredded. It happens so fast that there is no time to actually self-heal or get heals from a teammate, and the only way to counter it for a low hull hp ship that I can think of is to pre-buff hull resistance with either Hazard Emitters or Aux to Structural Integrity and then have an additional hull heal ready (like Engineering Team) to apply once the attack occurs. And even this can be countered by a teammate subnuking the target that has the hull resists on him right before the decloak alpha strike occurs.

    So while you may say you are trying to bring pressure closer to spike, you guys have done the exact opposite. In the last couple months spike has been increased more than at any other time than I can recall and it is now completely out of control. Actions speak louder than words, and I truly hope that you guys take some sort of action to correct this situation that you have created.
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    skurf wrote: »
    /snip Actions speak louder than words, and I truly hope that you guys take some sort of action to correct this situation that you have created.

    Unfortunately this is the only kind of consistency we have come to know from Dev-player interaction in the PvP forums.

    Players: there is too much spam, and npc in PvP.

    Dev:We understand that fighting NPCs is not the point of PvP. We won't change maps or the queues, but we will fiddle with the spawn numbers and timers:



    Release Notes:
    • New Release: FED CARRIER, sci ships and escorts with hangars to follow suit!!
    • Pets spawn at twice the rate they previously did, we cut the number of spawns so that where there used to be 4 pets per spawn now there are only three.
    • More pets in more stores, for more currencies.
    • Here is some doffs to spawn even more pets
    • Some consoles to spawn pets on top

    Players: Uhhm???
    Dev: We decreased the spawns...please hold the line


    What i m trying to say. Hawks post coming alongside the warbirds, and the BO doff... there is a method to the madness.
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    We're not planning on making sweeping changes to game combat or mechanics -.

    so all those times we were told that pvp was to get a major overhaul was a lie then?
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    also, there would be no noticeable effect in pve, since npcs dont distribute thier shields or react to incoming fire, there no difference between spike and sustained to them, its just the dps that maters, and thats not changing

    NPCs have been distributing their shields for quite some time now. Not noticeable on most regular weak enemies but look at an elite tholian Tarantula or the Borg Queen, Tac cubes.. If you punch a hole in one side, it doesn't stay there long anymore.
    Delirium Tremens
    Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
    Nothing to do anymore.
    http://dtfleet.com/
    Visit our Youtube channel
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    havam wrote: »
    Release Notes:

    Made me lol

    It's so true... everything we say they do the exact opposite and x2 at a min.

    The worst stuff we can dream of they will do only worse... and with more bugs, and they will likely break the skill that would have countered it, as long as the $ rolls in for it.

    To much spam... oh here we will reduce the number of mines out... and give them cloaking abilities. (this one wasn't to bad really)

    Then they went and gave pets mines, and release at least on major OP mine every major season/patch what ever they wanna call it....

    To much sci spam... so they added a nice bit of sci resistance in the skill tree. (which I thought was a good idea)

    Then they release pets with tractor beams and acetons... and then warp plasma type skills... and now Scrambles... the pets with tachyon aren't to annoying but there out there. The cat box sales must be down... anyone wanna bet a cat box pet is soon going to show up with CPB. lol (or worse yet a pet with the boobula detection grid console.... that should kill everyones STO instance pretty fast)

    I think we should add the most recent one in there to... "Hey devs beta doesn't work in pvp anymore cause tac team sucks"

    Oh ya that is an issue boys... here E pets will now spam Beta 3... ensuring it is always on when tac team is down... and hehe to the poor slobs that don't carry dual tac teams. lol Be sure and slot Advanced and E versions so you can stack beta 3 and 2 on those suckers boys.

    Yep the power creep is fully entrenched into the pets now.

    Speaking of spam.... This is one of my personal favorites right now to....

    Players... "Hey Cryptic Photonic fleet is annoying... it does very little dmg and is there for pretty pointless, not even a good distraction. Why don't you change the skill somehow."

    Cryptic... "Here's a new trait... double speed photo fleets Yaaa... oh and we buffed those suckers they have all sorts of nice things now like tractors and other junk so people won't ignore them"

    Seriously who hasn't been in a match recently with 2-3 sci and 12-20 photo fleets flying around. Man matches with 2-3 sci per side... its like Cryptic has reached into my PC yanked my video cared and replaced it with a Diamond Monster 3D.

    I think from now on we should stop pointing out what is broken... no more bug reports. No more complaining.

    Lets all ask for the most crazy things we can possibly thing of... completely game breaking BFG type things. If we do that I have a feeling Cryptic will overhaul pvp and fix things the way we wan.... err I mean I darn sure hope they don't do that.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    havam wrote: »
    Unfortunately this is the only kind of consistency we have come to know from Dev-player interaction in the PvP forums.

    Players: there is too much spam, and npc in PvP.

    Dev:We understand that fighting NPCs is not the point of PvP. We won't change maps or the queues, but we will fiddle with the spawn numbers and timers:



    Release Notes:
    • New Release: FED CARRIER, sci ships and escorts with hangars to follow suit!!
    • Pets spawn at twice the rate they previously did, we cut the number of spawns so that where there used to be 4 pets per spawn now there are only three.
    • More pets in more stores, for more currencies.
    • Here is some doffs to spawn even more pets
    • Some consoles to spawn pets on top

    Players: Uhhm???
    Dev: We decreased the spawns...please hold the line


    What i m trying to say. Hawks post coming alongside the warbirds, and the BO doff... there is a method to the madness.


    Well, while I agree with the general sentiment that the issue is continually made worse as the game progresses, I think what we see with regards to disconnect is the following:

    I work at a company and in this company we have people who work in marketing who come up with new product lines and products and then we have the designers who create those.

    The designers work on an individual basis, they manage their own projects and meet their own deadlines. Only their managers oversee all of the projects.

    They can, and do, talk with each other for ideas and solutions, but in the project direction is left to their discretion and marketing's approval.

    I think we have elements of that here in STO, where one dev might be working on X, and another on Y and a third on Z.

    Maybe they have some meetings to keep everything under some general over-arching design goal, but the nitty gritty small bits are left to their individual discretion.


    Once a project is launched, they probably have a new slate of projects and deadlines and demands to meet - making it pretty tough to go back and touch all of the stuff they personally created, with 0 reason to touch anything other devs have created.


    On top of all of that, aside from the constant march of power creep making an already easy game easier by the day - little of the "overpowered" stuff we complain about is even used or registers a blip on the PvE audience.

    I mean really, who the hell is using tricked out GPG or chained TIF in PvE content?

    Most PvErs won't even touch beam overload.


    I'm not making any excuses, I think the continued addition of new spike tools and new passive mitigation tools has blown past the point of no return and that's not a good thing. I just wanted to toss out that bit of perspective on what might be going on behind the scenes, although I could be totally wrong. ;)
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    nicha0 wrote: »
    NPCs have been distributing their shields for quite some time now. Not noticeable on most regular weak enemies but look at an elite tholian Tarantula or the Borg Queen, Tac cubes.. If you punch a hole in one side, it doesn't stay there long anymore.

    its merely regenerating every 6 seconds
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    its merely regenerating every 6 seconds

    The Tactical Cube in KASE redistributes its shields every once in a while, but its shields are so weak that it usually doesn't matter. It doesn't do it right away though, I think it starts at like 30 seconds (haven't payed too much attention to when it happens). I know it does because I like to use torpedoes and to maximize their damage, I wait till there's a shield facing down. If I'm a little late, however, the shields on that facing come back up, while the other on the opposite end lose power.

    If its a good team though, the cube is dead before that even happens.
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    its merely regenerating every 6 seconds

    The only npc I've ever seen move shields around are Klingon birds f prey, and only their forward shield gets boosted by the other facings.

    Notice next time you shoot one in the face, all the other facings go down first?

    Weird..


    Wonder if they'll make that a console at some point...

    That's like th only thing we don't have in console form.
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Anybody ever see or hear anything about whether there is a separate formula for when DR goes negative or not?

    Such as a post like this one...
    Hey guys,

    We tracked down an edge case with some weird math involving skill points and their effects on the damage of these mines. In most normal cases, they were behaving as expected - however, in this edge case, they were getting multiplicatively stronger than expected. In the not-too-distant future, we should have a fix for this behavior.

    ...but for damage resistance?
  • frtoasterfrtoaster Member Posts: 3,354 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Anybody ever see or hear anything about whether there is a separate formula for when DR goes negative or not?

    Such as a post like this one...



    ...but for damage resistance?

    A search reveals that heero139 was trying to figure this out over a month ago, but it appears that he did not come to any conclusions.

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=733251
    Waiting for a programmer ...
    qVpg1km.png
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I posted this in another thread where the discussion is taking place on Disruptor uptime - where I raised the concern of proc overwrite because of varying changes/resists as mentioned in this thread...if there's a reply here, I'll post that to the other thread or if it is there - I'll post it here...
    There was the following...





    To try to match that with non-hypothetical flat numbers...

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Damage_resistance

    A DR of 40.1% has a DRM/DRR of 70.

    100 damage vs. a DR of 40.1% = 59.9

    If we apply a resisted Disruptor proc of -10 to that, following the manner in which he describes it: -5.99 would be the proc. The new DRM/DRR would be 64.01. The new DR would be 38.2%.

    100 damage vs. a DR of 38.2% = 61.8

    An increase of 3% damage. Which looks nothing like his hypothetical example...which makes sense, because the Disruptor proc is a DRR debuff - not a DR debuff.

    Even if it were not resisted, say the full -10 took the DRM/DRR from 70 to 60...the new DR would be 36.7%.

    100 damage vs. a DR of 36.7% = 63.3

    An increase of 5.7% damage.

    That amount will always vary (the following are unresisted to show the difference that exists regardless):

    100 DRM/DRR (48% DR) 100 damage = 52
    -10 DRR (45.7%) 100 damage = 54.3 (+4.4% damage)

    75 DRM/DRR (41.7% DR) 100 damage = 58.3
    -10 DRR (38.5% DR) 100 damage = 61.5 (+5.5% damage)

    50 DRM/DRR (32.8% DR) 100 damage = 67.2
    -10 DRR (28.3% DR) 100 damage = 71.7 (+6.7% damage (+6.6% if you don't round...6.69)

    25 DRM/DRR (19.9% DR) 100 damage = 80.1
    -10 DRR (13.0% DR) 100 damage = 87 (+8.6% damage)

    How about the following?

    10 DRM/DRR (9.1% DR) 100 damage = 90.9
    -10 DRR (0%) 100 damage = 100 (+10% damage)

    But again, that's unresisted. Resisted...DRM/DRR drops to 0.91 (0.9% DR)...99.1 damage (+9% damage)...

    So was it a case that when he was talking about it resisting - that it was the 4.4, 5.5, 6.7, 8.6 that we saw? Was the example he gave completely hypothetical - as in - well, it had nothing to do with the real math? Perhaps Hawk cloud clarify?
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I wouldn't usually respond to sentiment like this, because I don't like to reward negativity on the forums,

    No offence, but I feel that's a bit of a cop-out. See, I look at 'negativity' a whole lot different than you. When I watch people being 'negative' as you call it, what I really see is the underlying frustration -- one that I can recognize as genuine and often well-founded. Like people -- myself included -- getting hopelessly frustrated/annoyed with very obvious bugs not getting fixed, even though they've been brought to your attention many, many times.

    Now, one way to look at this, is to say "My, what negativity; I'm not going to 'reward' that." Another way would be "Obviously there's some deep frustration going on here, and we devs needs to examine, in ourselves, what we are doing -- or not doing -- to cause this." And not look at the form in which it's written so much. I think often you will find people have a very legitimate beef: even when their actual words are larded with overtones of frustration, and maybe anger even.

    But honestly, if you're going to shrug off every 'negative' post, simply because you only want to deal with the happy-happy replies, then you're dismissing all root-causes of said frustrations. And that feels like choosing the easy-way out. I mean, ignoring negative feedback basically equals ignoring feedback altogether. And that's sad.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    But honestly, if you're going to shrug off every 'negative' post, simply because you only want to deal with the happy-happy replies, then you're dismissing all root-causes of said frustrations.

    Hawk doesn't shrug off every 'negative' post though. There's a vast difference between negative posts (lol, I've done more than my fair share of them) and blatant trolling posts.

    Joe Random states that Cryptic is always nerfing stuff and favoring the PvP folks.

    What does that post always end up doing? Turns into a big flamewar, mods have to put on their oven mitts to shut it down, etc, etc, etc. All Jeff said was that he normally doesn't reply to posts like that...knowing what they are and not wanting to reward trolls with the attention.

    Think about the two guys that have been trolling the two PvP threads over in General Discussion, eh?

    There can be constructive negative feedback, there can be non-constructive negative feedback, there can be ranting/raging negative feedback...and then there's the trolling TRIBBLE. Why bother rewarding them?

    edit: And as the post before your reply said, I'm still curious about how proc overwrites for Disruptors work and what the mechanics for negative DRR/DRM are in relation to damage since the formula we have for positive DRR/DRM obviously can't be the same one for negative...
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Hawk doesn't shrug off every 'negative' post though. There's a vast difference between negative posts (lol, I've done more than my fair share of them) and blatant trolling posts.

    Joe Random states that Cryptic is always nerfing stuff and favoring the PvP folks.

    I wasn't talking about Joe's post specifically (I only half-read it, tbh; something about nerf... blah... unfair). But the matter has come up a lot of late, whether and/or why Cryptic seems to ignore so much. So, when I read this, I figured: "Wow, if devs are ignoring 'negative' posts, then there must be a lot of ignoring going on, as ppl tend to be upset rather often, for various reasons -- myself included."
    There can be constructive negative feedback, there can be non-constructive negative feedback, there can be ranting/raging negative feedback...and then there's the trolling TRIBBLE. Why bother rewarding them?

    Rewarding is perhaps not an ideal term here. I would certainly noy dignify many rants myself, were I in a dev's shoes. My point just was, that I hope devs can *read* thru the anger/negativity, and still distill why people are so upset; and maybe give those reasons some consideration.

    As for disruptors, I think I disrupted this thread enough as it is. *g*

    N.B. As for always nerfing and favoring PvP-ers, I don't think so. I say it's probably true, since PvP-ers are usually the most knowledgeable about game-mechanics, that they can best talk 'on-par' with the devs. But I think it's fair to say PvP-ers have always gotten the short end of the stick in this game, as long as memory goes back.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
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