Kind of. Resistance resists changes to resistance. So if, for instance, I have 40% Phaser Resistance but 0% to everything else:
-I get hit with a -10% Resist All debuff from a hypothetical debuff power
-My Phaser resistance resists 40% of that debuff, so my Phaser Resist goes down by 6%, down to 34%.
-All my other resistances are 0%, so the -10% debuff has its full effect
Starting Resists:
Phaser: 40%
All Other: 0%
Ending Resists:
Phaser: 34%
All Other: -10%
But wait, you say! The difference between 34% Resistance and 40% Resistance means that on a 100 damage hit, I used to take 60 damage, and now I'm taking 66 damage! I'm taking 10% more damage!
That's correct - you will take 10% more damage across the board when you get hit with a -10% resistance debuff. The tricky part is just that your resistance *ratings* don't all change at the same rate - they vary based on how high they were to begin with. As a general rule, Resistance buffs and debuffs should never be affected by damage multipliers, and they should always be affected by other resistance values. Any scenario in which this is not the case creates strange damage multiplication corollaries around either very high or very low resistance/damage buff edge cases.
I was under the impression that all buffs and debuffs to damage resistance were actually buffs and debuffs to damage resistance rating. I thought these buffs and debuffs were summed to get a final damage resistance rating, which was then input to a formula (see the link below) to get the damage resistance percentage.
Are you saying that damage resistance buffs and debuffs now add or subtract damage resistance percentages directly, but scaled based on the current damage resistance percentage? Was this always the case, or is this a new change? Or does the scenario you outlined above apply only to the disruptor proc?
Maybe, you should just give us the mathematical formulas. Some people understand numerical examples better, but I prefer the general rule.
Note that the above formulas are incomplete, because they don't include shield resistance debuffs and hull resistance buffs. My guess is that the complete formulas are
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
APO3 adds +35.5 DRM...our expected new DR would be: 41.06%
It displays 41.1%
AtS1 adds +16.4 DRM...popping that with the APO3 up, would expect 45.556% - which I'd have rounded to 45.6% but the system rounds to 45.5%.
The buffs are adding DRM/DRR - they're not percentages like the shield stuff. The buffs being added don't calculate like SDR does. It's not a case of calculating the DR from the 35.5 DRM and then working through the shield formula. It's just adding the DRR to the DRM and then calculating the new DR.
We know from what Hawk said, that the Disrupt 10% is resisted by the DR. So with that 27% guy, his DR would drop to 19.7%.
That's if the APO3 was applied after the Disrupt was applied to the base.
41.06%, ~35.2%% would be what it would be if it were applied to the base + APO3.
So a case of figuring that it doing the recalc after buffs were applied (wore off) being more likely, but just wanting to make sure.
But the other part was regarding other debuffs...which gets a little complicated, eh?
APB/APD apply a -DRR modifier. So does the Mega Torp.
So for the most part, do those just plug into the overall DRM calc to determine DR and then the Disrupt proc is applied as a final mod - being recalculated as all of that changes?
Doesn't matter if the DRM goes negative...
If we look at the formula: NDR = ODR - (10 - (ODR * 0.1) ex: 40 - (10 - (40 * 0.1) = 34%
So going back to the guy from above. 27 - (10 - (27 * 0.1) = 19.7%
But let's apply a -47.1 DRR debuff from shooting at somebody sporting APD3.
37.5 + (-47.1) = -9.6 DRM = -10.6% DR
-10.6 - (10 - (-10.6 * 0.1) = -21.66% DR
Say we apply that 100 damage...
100 * 1.106 = 110.6
100 * 1.2166 = 121.66
The Disrupt proc is still adding 10% damage.
So again, just making sure that the Disrupt proc was a final modifier...
((BaseDRM + (+BuffsDRR) + (-BuffsDRR))converted to DR - Disrupt = new DR
That it's recalculated like that each time a buff/debuff is added/wears off...
0 DRM - 47.1 = -84.4%, meaning 184.4% damage is taken.
vs. 0 DRM = 0%, meaning 100% damage is taken.
An increase of +84.4% damage.
37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 47.1 = -10.6%, meaning 110.6% damage is taken.
vs. 37.5 DRM = 27%, meaning 73% damage is taken.
An increase of +37.6% damage.
73 DRM (base + APO3) - 47.1 = 20.5%, 79.5% damage is taken.
vs. 73 DRM = 41.1%, meaning 58.9% damage is taken.
An increase of +20.6% damage.
Is it really supposed to be variable like that?
Well, because things appear to stack (only did the the APB/APD part). As in Player A could drop out APD - Player B could fire up APB - Player C could drop out a Mega Torp...
So the APD applies -47.1...
With the APB applying -37.8...
And the Mega Torp doing -33...
For a total of -117.9 DRR.
That 0 DRM guy would take +1562.7% damage.
The 37.5 DRM guy (27% DR) would take +273.4% damage.
The 73 DRM guy (27% base + APO3) would take +77.8% damage.
So is it variable like that...or...is the tooltip thing a display issue and APD/APB/etc are actually doing a percentage thing like the Disruptor proc?
EDIT: Sorry Hawk. Sorry PvPers. Heat of the moment, buying Mk12 purple disruptor consoles less than a week before the announcement of a fix stung a little bit.
Hey ho, that's the way life is sometimes. I apologise
edit: Meh, that was more hostile than it needed to be, though I'm not sure this is any less hostile...meh.
If PvE folks were more diligent/honest about what is broken in the game, rather than continuing to exploit those issues...there would be fewer complaints about PvP folks being so diligent/honest about what is broken in the game.
The real question is how much of a difference it really makes..i.e. how much additional damage were people taking when the de-buff was buffed, if you see what I mean.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
APO3 adds +35.5 DRM...our expected new DR would be: 41.06%
It displays 41.1%
AtS1 adds +16.4 DRM...popping that with the APO3 up, would expect 45.556% - which I'd have rounded to 45.6% but the system rounds to 45.5%.
The buffs are adding DRM/DRR - they're not percentages like the shield stuff. The buffs being added don't calculate like SDR does. It's not a case of calculating the DR from the 35.5 DRM and then working through the shield formula. It's just adding the DRR to the DRM and then calculating the new DR.
The above is how I thought damage resistance buffs and debuffs worked. That's why adjudicatorhawk's post confused me. Why is the disruptor proc being treated differently? If I remember correctly, the tooltip said it gave -10 to damage resistance rating. If the disruptor proc now functions like a -10% damage resistance debuff (that is, it works like shield debuffs now), then the tooltip is no longer correct.
That's if the APO3 was applied after the Disrupt was applied to the base.
I doubt the game backwards calculates like this from damage resistance percentage to damage resistance rating. Your following conjecture is more likely.
But the other part was regarding other debuffs...which gets a little complicated, eh?
APB/APD apply a -DRR modifier. So does the Mega Torp.
So for the most part, do those just plug into the overall DRM calc to determine DR and then the Disrupt proc is applied as a final mod - being recalculated as all of that changes?
I can't quite tell from what you wrote. Are you saying that you've tested APO, APB, and APD, and that they all just subtract from damage resistance rating? And the disruptor proc works just like adjudicatorhawk said, applying after the final damage resistance rating is converted to a damage resistance percentage?
What is this Mega Torp that decreases damage resistance rating?
the problem isnt a proc that can be buffed, the only bog or problem i see with it is that it double counts for disruptor weaponry,fix that isnt a problem, but let it be buffed from tac skills, what they doing now is destroying tje klingon side, the kdf romulan side, and 1 full set of fleet weapons,
0 DRM - 47.1 = -84.4%, meaning 184.4% damage is taken.
vs. 0 DRM = 0%, meaning 100% damage is taken.
An increase of +84.4% damage.
37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 47.1 = -10.6%, meaning 110.6% damage is taken.
vs. 37.5 DRM = 27%, meaning 73% damage is taken.
An increase of +37.6% damage.
73 DRM (base + APO3) - 47.1 = 20.5%, 79.5% damage is taken.
vs. 73 DRM = 41.1%, meaning 58.9% damage is taken.
An increase of +20.6% damage.
Is it really supposed to be variable like that?
Well, because things appear to stack (only did the the APB/APD part). As in Player A could drop out APD - Player B could fire up APB - Player C could drop out a Mega Torp...
So the APD applies -47.1...
With the APB applying -37.8...
And the Mega Torp doing -33...
For a total of -117.9 DRR.
That 0 DRM guy would take +1562.7% damage.
The 37.5 DRM guy (27% DR) would take +273.4% damage.
The 73 DRM guy (27% base + APO3) would take +77.8% damage.
So is it variable like that...or...is the tooltip thing a display issue and APD/APB/etc are actually doing a percentage thing like the Disruptor proc?
Let DRR denote the damage resistance rating and DRP denote the damage resistance percentage. Cryptic's formula is
DRP = 3*(1/4 - (75 / (150 + DRR))^2).
There are at least two problems with this formula:
1. It was likely designed for positive DRR only, but is blindly applied to negative DRR as well. Notice that DRP approaches minus infinity as DRR approaches -150. As DRR decreases further below -150, DRP actually increases. At DRR = -300, we have DRP = 0. For DRR < -300, DRP is actually positive.
2. For large values of DRR, the effect of diminishing returns becomes more apparent. This was explained clearly by guriphu in the following thread:
the problem isnt a proc that can be buffed, the only bog or problem i see with it is that it double counts for disruptor weaponry,fix that isnt a problem, but let it be buffed from tac skills, what they doing now is destroying tje klingon side, the kdf romulan side, and 1 full set of fleet weapons,
I'm not sure the bug actually was that it was double counting for disruptors. I know that's what some people in this thread said, but take a look at the screenshot in the post below.
That clearly shows a case where the disruptor proc gave a larger plasma debuff than disruptor debuff. My guess is that the disruptor proc was actually buffed by tac consoles (and possibly damage accolades as well).
its assumed this is a nerf, but it might have better average effect after this. these cases of negative 100 resistance though, its nothing i ever encounters with my disruptor use, i only ever say a double magnitude for disrupter debuff. there shouldn't be any -100 resistance proc in game anyway, its pretty shameful to gripe when something like that gets fixed. how many i win crutches to you pve kiddies need to blow up npcs?
The above is how I thought damage resistance buffs and debuffs worked. That's why adjudicatorhawk's post confused me. Why is the disruptor proc being treated differently? If I remember correctly, the tooltip said it gave -10 to damage resistance rating. If the disruptor proc now functions like a -10% resistance debuff (that is, it works like shield debuffs now), then the tooltip is no longer correct.
Hrmm, yeah - got caught up in other things and completely overlooked that. It's one of my general tooltip questions on so many things - because - well, the tooltips are broken.
They've been trying to get away from percentages and to fixed values - which makes this kind of odd. It also serves as a buff to Disruptors, no?
Going back to the guy I used.
37.5 Base = 27%
Disruptor as -10: 21.4%
Disruptor as -10%: 19.7%
73 w/ APO3 = 41.4%
Disruptor as -10: 37.8%
Disruptor as -10%: 35.5%
I doubt the game backwards calculates like this from damage resistance percentage to damage resistance rating. Your following conjecture is more likely.
Depends on whether it is a % or a number. If it is a number, then it is just worked into the calc like anything else. As a %, it gets a little more complicated.
I can't quite tell from what you wrote. Are you saying that you've tested APO, APB, and APD, and that they all just subtract from damage resistance rating? And the disruptor proc works just like adjudicatorhawk said, applying after the final damage resistance rating is converted to a damage resistance percentage?
What is this Mega Torp that decreases damage resistance rating?
I later tested to see if they show on a target, but I wasn't the target to see how the numbers played out - only that the debuffs showed on the target.
A target will show the debuffs. Would have to have two folks, with at least one of them flying a T'varo Retro/Fleet T'varo with the console - to look at what the actual numbers did.
The Mega Torp...the Burning Beachball...the console torpedo from the T'varo Retrofit. It applies a -33 DRR to the target for my guy with it (not sure if that number varies).
Let DRR denote the damage resistance rating and DRP denote the damage resistance percentage. Cryptic's formula is
DRP = 3*(1/4 - (75 / (150 + DRR))^2).
There are at least two problems with this formula:
1. It was likely designed for positive DRR only, but is blindly applied to negative DRR as well. Notice that DRP approaches minus infinity as DRR approaches -150. As DRR decreases further below -150, DRP actually increases. At DRR = -300, we have DRP = 0. For DRR < -300, DRP is actually positive.
2. For large values of DRR, the effect of diminishing returns becomes more apparent. This was explained clearly by guriphu in the following thread:
They've got a certain amount of control as far as how low it can go, but there's that definite issue that arises as you approach that controlled cap they have. They've probably looked outside the formula to make sure that DRR never hits -150 - boom, STO crashes...lol.
But still...
25 DRR = 19.9% DRP, 80.1% damage taken
-25 DRR = -33% DRP, 133% damage taken
There has to be another formula out there. Some other procedure that takes place with it being negative. Kind of like what happens with Acc vs. Def...if the value is Pos or if the value is Neg. That sort of thing...hrmmm.
its assumed this is a nerf, but it might have better average effect after this. these cases of negative 100 resistance though, its nothing i ever encounters with my disruptor use, i only ever say a double magnitude for disrupter debuff. there shouldn't be any -100 resistance proc in game anyway, its pretty shameful to gripe when something like that gets fixed. how many i win crutches to you pve kiddies need to blow up npcs?
1. The damage resistance values in the -100% range are probably on targets with no damage resistance consoles and possibly no skill points in damage resistance skills. I'm not sure, but I think NPCs also have no innate damage resistance.
2. The double counting you saw for the disruptor debuff might come from disruptor tac consoles and damage accolades. We don't know for sure what was affecting the disruptor proc. It probably wasn't double for everyone, but varied according to build, and possibly varied depending on what abilities were activated.
They've been trying to get away from percentages and to fixed values - which makes this kind of odd. It also serves as a buff to Disruptors, no?
Going back to the guy I used.
37.5 Base = 27%
Disruptor as -10: 21.4%
Disruptor as -10%: 19.7%
73 w/ APO3 = 41.4%
Disruptor as -10: 37.8%
Disruptor as -10%: 35.5%
Well, you are looking at the disruptor proc unbuffed on targets with positive DRR. If I understood the patch notes correctly, the disruptor proc was buffed by things unknown, so it likely a nerf after that is taken into account. Also, I believe NPCs have no innate damage resistance, so it is likely a larger nerf for players shooting NPCs.
Well, you are looking at the disruptor proc unbuffed on targets with positive DRR. If I understood the patch notes correctly, the disruptor proc was buffed by things unknown, so it likely a nerf after that is taken into account. Also, I believe NPCs have no innate damage resistance, so it is likely a larger nerf for players shooting NPCs.
Depending on how it worked and stacking...could be a few things.
Hrmm, let me speculate with one of my guys...
w/APO1 (+14.2%)
37.5 Base = 27%
Disruptor as (-10 + (-10 * 0.142)) or -11.42 : 20.6%
Disruptor as -10%: 19.7%
w/APA3 (+47.1%)
37.5 Base = 27%
Disruptor as (-10 + (-10 * .471)) or -14.71: 18.5%
Disruptor as -10%: 19.7%
It would be a buff for the APO1 but a nerf for the APA3.
Then if they were stacking, and say they were stacking like determining damage for energy weapons...
w/APO1 (+14.2%) & w/APA3 (+47.1%)
37.5 Base = 27%
Disruptor as (-10 + (-10 * .471) + (-10 * 0.142)) or -16.13: 17.5%
Disruptor as -10%: 19.7%
But of course, that's just speculation on a possible way in which it was working but should not have been...add in to that other damage buffs that might have been in play, and the overall "nerf" would increment.
1. The damage resistance values in the -100% range are probably on targets with no damage resistance consoles and possibly no skill points in damage resistance skills. I'm not sure, but I think NPCs also have no innate damage resistance.
2. The double counting you saw for the disruptor debuff might come from disruptor tac consoles and damage accolades. We don't know for sure what was affecting the disruptor proc. It probably wasn't double for everyone, but varied according to build, and possibly varied depending on what abilities were activated.
ive used this tool quite a bit, it will become clear real quick what your disrupter proc does if your paying attention to what the tool says.
Quick replying to thread - my example using percentage values was hypothetical. Disruptor debuff was and still will be a flat resistance rating debuff - I just wanted to explain the underlying principle of Resistance resisting changes to resistance, and that was numerically easier to demonstrate with a percentage case than a flat debuff case.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Quick replying to thread - my example using percentage values was hypothetical. Disruptor debuff was and still will be a flat resistance rating debuff - I just wanted to explain the underlying principle of Resistance resisting changes to resistance, and that was numerically easier to demonstrate with a percentage case than a flat debuff case.
But, but, but...we were having so much fun with maths!
Well, that does make things simpler though. Thanks for the update on that.
ARGH. More PvP whining ***** getting this nerfed for the rest of the community.
You nerfed my disruptors, DAMN YOU!, DAMN YOU!
:mad::mad::mad::mad:
I wouldn't usually respond to sentiment like this, because I don't like to reward negativity on the forums, but this is just simply not true. I'm not fixing this because PvPers thought it was bad - I'm fixing it because it breaks the rules of how our game is supposed to work. That the NPCs don't come on the forums and post about how unfair disruptors are means you're not really going to see a lot of PvE complaints about them, but that doesn't mean they should just stay broken.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
0 DRM - 47.1 = -84.4%, meaning 184.4% damage is taken.
vs. 0 DRM = 0%, meaning 100% damage is taken.
An increase of +84.4% damage.
37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 47.1 = -10.6%, meaning 110.6% damage is taken.
vs. 37.5 DRM = 27%, meaning 73% damage is taken.
An increase of +37.6% damage.
73 DRM (base + APO3) - 47.1 = 20.5%, 79.5% damage is taken.
vs. 73 DRM = 41.1%, meaning 58.9% damage is taken.
An increase of +20.6% damage.
Is it really supposed to be variable like that?
Well, because things appear to stack (only did the the APB/APD part). As in Player A could drop out APD - Player B could fire up APB - Player C could drop out a Mega Torp...
So the APD applies -47.1...
With the APB applying -37.8...
And the Mega Torp doing -33...
For a total of -117.9 DRR.
That 0 DRM guy would take +1562.7% damage.
The 37.5 DRM guy (27% DR) would take +273.4% damage.
The 73 DRM guy (27% base + APO3) would take +77.8% damage.
So is it variable like that...or...is the tooltip thing a display issue and APD/APB/etc are actually doing a percentage thing like the Disruptor proc?
APD wouldn't apply -47.1 to all targets. It would apply that to the 0 resistance target, but the other two targets would resist a % of that debuff equal to their % DR at the time the debuff was applied.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
The real question is how much of a difference it really makes..i.e. how much additional damage were people taking when the de-buff was buffed, if you see what I mean.
Because Disruptor debuffs were being boosted by bonus damage, a de-cloaking disruptor boat running a full alpha strike with 3-5 disruptor tac consoles could easily put out a debuff somewhere between 4 to 7 times higher than intended. This edge case of burst damage is part of why alpha strikes were regularly so absurd (though a very small part - the largest part is the extent to which our damage buff powers can stack on a given entity)
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
I wouldn't usually respond to sentiment like this, because I don't like to reward negativity on the forums, but this is just simply not true. I'm not fixing this because PvPers thought it was bad - I'm fixing it because it breaks the rules of how our game is supposed to work. That the NPCs don't come on the forums and post about how unfair disruptors are means you're not really going to see a lot of PvE complaints about them, but that doesn't mean they should just stay broken.
Hawk, I could kiss you for that. That quote deserves to be framed and shown to all the people on the forum every time something like this pops up, no matter what it is. That just earned you some MAJOR brownie points in my book.
Question: Was this same issue happening on ground Disruptor weapons as well? If yes, is that also getting fixed?
Well I wonder what will be hit next ... Phaser and Plasma were hit (and Antiproton long ago), now Disruptor ... I guess that leaves Polaron to be the one taking a hit next.
Actually, Polaron was changed quite awhile back as well. Not just with Power Insulators protecting against them, but also in the mechanics was changed with them.
Tetryon was indirectly hit with the PI resist as well back when the skill tree change went through.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Comments
Base + BuffX + BuffY - DebuffZ sort of thing? BuffY wears off, DebuffZ recalcs off of Base + BuffX?
Do multiple Debuffs calc based on the order they were applied or to the non-Debuffed number?
ugh..just when I thought I understood it...you go and ask more questions....
lol
but yeah good questions. Id'e like to know also.
I was under the impression that all buffs and debuffs to damage resistance were actually buffs and debuffs to damage resistance rating. I thought these buffs and debuffs were summed to get a final damage resistance rating, which was then input to a formula (see the link below) to get the damage resistance percentage.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Damage_resistance
Are you saying that damage resistance buffs and debuffs now add or subtract damage resistance percentages directly, but scaled based on the current damage resistance percentage? Was this always the case, or is this a new change? Or does the scenario you outlined above apply only to the disruptor proc?
Maybe, you should just give us the mathematical formulas. Some people understand numerical examples better, but I prefer the general rule.
If I understand adjudicatorhawk correctly, then it should work like shield resistances. For shield resistances, we have
SR_final = 1 - (1 - SR_buff_1) * ... * (1 - SR_buff_N).
I'm guessing that for hull resistances, we would have
HR_final = 1 - (1 - HR_initial) * (1 + HR_debuff_1) * ... * (1 + HR_debuff_M).
Note that the above formulas are incomplete, because they don't include shield resistance debuffs and hull resistance buffs. My guess is that the complete formulas are
SR_final = 1 - (1 - SR_buff_1) * ... * (1 - SR_buff_N) * (1 + SR_debuff_1) * ... * (1 + SR_debuff_M)
and
HR_final = 1 - (1 - HR_initial) * (1 - HR_buff_1) * ... * (1 - HR_buff_N) * (1 + HR_debuff_1) * ... * (1 + HR_debuff_M).
On one of my guys, his base DR is 27.0%.
Following info from STOwiki:
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Skill:_Starship_Threat_Control
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Skill:_Starship_Hull_Plating
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Damage_resistance
Can easily see how he got to the 27.0%...
Threat Control 3: +5.4 DRR
Hull Plating 6: +12.6 DRR
Accolades: +2.0 DRR
Neut Mk XI: +17.5 DRR
+37.5 DRM...DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))...27.0% DR
APO3 adds +35.5 DRM...our expected new DR would be: 41.06%
It displays 41.1%
AtS1 adds +16.4 DRM...popping that with the APO3 up, would expect 45.556% - which I'd have rounded to 45.6% but the system rounds to 45.5%.
The buffs are adding DRM/DRR - they're not percentages like the shield stuff. The buffs being added don't calculate like SDR does. It's not a case of calculating the DR from the 35.5 DRM and then working through the shield formula. It's just adding the DRR to the DRM and then calculating the new DR.
We know from what Hawk said, that the Disrupt 10% is resisted by the DR. So with that 27% guy, his DR would drop to 19.7%.
DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))
.197 = (3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))
0.06566666666666666666666666666667 = (0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2)
(75/(150+DRM))^2 = 0.18433333333333333333333333333333
75/(150+DRM) = 0.42934057964899303626287485420243
174.68649262391217569465975080569 = 150 + DRM
24.686492623912175694659750805694 = DRM
+35.5 from APO3, would result in a DR of ~36.8%
That's if the APO3 was applied after the Disrupt was applied to the base.
41.06%, ~35.2%% would be what it would be if it were applied to the base + APO3.
So a case of figuring that it doing the recalc after buffs were applied (wore off) being more likely, but just wanting to make sure.
But the other part was regarding other debuffs...which gets a little complicated, eh?
APB/APD apply a -DRR modifier. So does the Mega Torp.
So for the most part, do those just plug into the overall DRM calc to determine DR and then the Disrupt proc is applied as a final mod - being recalculated as all of that changes?
Doesn't matter if the DRM goes negative...
If we look at the formula: NDR = ODR - (10 - (ODR * 0.1) ex: 40 - (10 - (40 * 0.1) = 34%
So going back to the guy from above. 27 - (10 - (27 * 0.1) = 19.7%
But let's apply a -47.1 DRR debuff from shooting at somebody sporting APD3.
37.5 + (-47.1) = -9.6 DRM = -10.6% DR
-10.6 - (10 - (-10.6 * 0.1) = -21.66% DR
Say we apply that 100 damage...
100 * 1.106 = 110.6
100 * 1.2166 = 121.66
The Disrupt proc is still adding 10% damage.
So again, just making sure that the Disrupt proc was a final modifier...
((BaseDRM + (+BuffsDRR) + (-BuffsDRR))converted to DR - Disrupt = new DR
That it's recalculated like that each time a buff/debuff is added/wears off...
Consider the following:
0 DRM - 47.1 = -84.4%, meaning 184.4% damage is taken.
vs. 0 DRM = 0%, meaning 100% damage is taken.
An increase of +84.4% damage.
37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 47.1 = -10.6%, meaning 110.6% damage is taken.
vs. 37.5 DRM = 27%, meaning 73% damage is taken.
An increase of +37.6% damage.
73 DRM (base + APO3) - 47.1 = 20.5%, 79.5% damage is taken.
vs. 73 DRM = 41.1%, meaning 58.9% damage is taken.
An increase of +20.6% damage.
Is it really supposed to be variable like that?
Well, because things appear to stack (only did the the APB/APD part). As in Player A could drop out APD - Player B could fire up APB - Player C could drop out a Mega Torp...
So the APD applies -47.1...
With the APB applying -37.8...
And the Mega Torp doing -33...
For a total of -117.9 DRR.
That 0 DRM guy would take +1562.7% damage.
The 37.5 DRM guy (27% DR) would take +273.4% damage.
The 73 DRM guy (27% base + APO3) would take +77.8% damage.
So is it variable like that...or...is the tooltip thing a display issue and APD/APB/etc are actually doing a percentage thing like the Disruptor proc?
You nerfed my disruptors,
:mad::mad::mad::mad:
EDIT: Sorry Hawk. Sorry PvPers. Heat of the moment, buying Mk12 purple disruptor consoles less than a week before the announcement of a fix stung a little bit.
Hey ho, that's the way life is sometimes. I apologise
Kirk's Protege.
If PvE folks were more diligent/honest about what is broken in the game, rather than continuing to exploit those issues...there would be fewer complaints about PvP folks being so diligent/honest about what is broken in the game.
if we had anything to do with bugged behavior getting fixed, which i doubt, your welcome
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Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
The above is how I thought damage resistance buffs and debuffs worked. That's why adjudicatorhawk's post confused me. Why is the disruptor proc being treated differently? If I remember correctly, the tooltip said it gave -10 to damage resistance rating. If the disruptor proc now functions like a -10% damage resistance debuff (that is, it works like shield debuffs now), then the tooltip is no longer correct.
I doubt the game backwards calculates like this from damage resistance percentage to damage resistance rating. Your following conjecture is more likely.
I can't quite tell from what you wrote. Are you saying that you've tested APO, APB, and APD, and that they all just subtract from damage resistance rating? And the disruptor proc works just like adjudicatorhawk said, applying after the final damage resistance rating is converted to a damage resistance percentage?
What is this Mega Torp that decreases damage resistance rating?
Note that there were at least two threads on the disruptor proc bug before this one:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5607281&postcount=7
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=611371
Let DRR denote the damage resistance rating and DRP denote the damage resistance percentage. Cryptic's formula is
DRP = 3*(1/4 - (75 / (150 + DRR))^2).
There are at least two problems with this formula:
1. It was likely designed for positive DRR only, but is blindly applied to negative DRR as well. Notice that DRP approaches minus infinity as DRR approaches -150. As DRR decreases further below -150, DRP actually increases. At DRR = -300, we have DRP = 0. For DRR < -300, DRP is actually positive.
2. For large values of DRR, the effect of diminishing returns becomes more apparent. This was explained clearly by guriphu in the following thread:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=7529611
I'm not sure the bug actually was that it was double counting for disruptors. I know that's what some people in this thread said, but take a look at the screenshot in the post below.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9943611&postcount=81
That clearly shows a case where the disruptor proc gave a larger plasma debuff than disruptor debuff. My guess is that the disruptor proc was actually buffed by tac consoles (and possibly damage accolades as well).
Hrmm, yeah - got caught up in other things and completely overlooked that. It's one of my general tooltip questions on so many things - because - well, the tooltips are broken.
They've been trying to get away from percentages and to fixed values - which makes this kind of odd. It also serves as a buff to Disruptors, no?
Going back to the guy I used.
37.5 Base = 27%
Disruptor as -10: 21.4%
Disruptor as -10%: 19.7%
73 w/ APO3 = 41.4%
Disruptor as -10: 37.8%
Disruptor as -10%: 35.5%
Depends on whether it is a % or a number. If it is a number, then it is just worked into the calc like anything else. As a %, it gets a little more complicated.
I later tested to see if they show on a target, but I wasn't the target to see how the numbers played out - only that the debuffs showed on the target.
A target will show the debuffs. Would have to have two folks, with at least one of them flying a T'varo Retro/Fleet T'varo with the console - to look at what the actual numbers did.
The Mega Torp...the Burning Beachball...the console torpedo from the T'varo Retrofit. It applies a -33 DRR to the target for my guy with it (not sure if that number varies).
They've got a certain amount of control as far as how low it can go, but there's that definite issue that arises as you approach that controlled cap they have. They've probably looked outside the formula to make sure that DRR never hits -150 - boom, STO crashes...lol.
But still...
25 DRR = 19.9% DRP, 80.1% damage taken
-25 DRR = -33% DRP, 133% damage taken
There has to be another formula out there. Some other procedure that takes place with it being negative. Kind of like what happens with Acc vs. Def...if the value is Pos or if the value is Neg. That sort of thing...hrmmm.
1. The damage resistance values in the -100% range are probably on targets with no damage resistance consoles and possibly no skill points in damage resistance skills. I'm not sure, but I think NPCs also have no innate damage resistance.
2. The double counting you saw for the disruptor debuff might come from disruptor tac consoles and damage accolades. We don't know for sure what was affecting the disruptor proc. It probably wasn't double for everyone, but varied according to build, and possibly varied depending on what abilities were activated.
Well, you are looking at the disruptor proc unbuffed on targets with positive DRR. If I understood the patch notes correctly, the disruptor proc was buffed by things unknown, so it likely a nerf after that is taken into account. Also, I believe NPCs have no innate damage resistance, so it is likely a larger nerf for players shooting NPCs.
Depending on how it worked and stacking...could be a few things.
Hrmm, let me speculate with one of my guys...
w/APO1 (+14.2%)
37.5 Base = 27%
Disruptor as (-10 + (-10 * 0.142)) or -11.42 : 20.6%
Disruptor as -10%: 19.7%
w/APA3 (+47.1%)
37.5 Base = 27%
Disruptor as (-10 + (-10 * .471)) or -14.71: 18.5%
Disruptor as -10%: 19.7%
It would be a buff for the APO1 but a nerf for the APA3.
Then if they were stacking, and say they were stacking like determining damage for energy weapons...
w/APO1 (+14.2%) & w/APA3 (+47.1%)
37.5 Base = 27%
Disruptor as (-10 + (-10 * .471) + (-10 * 0.142)) or -16.13: 17.5%
Disruptor as -10%: 19.7%
But of course, that's just speculation on a possible way in which it was working but should not have been...add in to that other damage buffs that might have been in play, and the overall "nerf" would increment.
ive used this tool quite a bit, it will become clear real quick what your disrupter proc does if your paying attention to what the tool says.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7730751&postcount=487
renim himself, with 1 disruptor turret and no buffs or tac consoles, did a double proc just like my 4 tac console fully tac buffed escort would do.
i know im going to be running this before and after this goes live to see if theres much of an difference before and after
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
But, but, but...we were having so much fun with maths!
Well, that does make things simpler though. Thanks for the update on that.
I wouldn't usually respond to sentiment like this, because I don't like to reward negativity on the forums, but this is just simply not true. I'm not fixing this because PvPers thought it was bad - I'm fixing it because it breaks the rules of how our game is supposed to work. That the NPCs don't come on the forums and post about how unfair disruptors are means you're not really going to see a lot of PvE complaints about them, but that doesn't mean they should just stay broken.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
APD wouldn't apply -47.1 to all targets. It would apply that to the 0 resistance target, but the other two targets would resist a % of that debuff equal to their % DR at the time the debuff was applied.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Because Disruptor debuffs were being boosted by bonus damage, a de-cloaking disruptor boat running a full alpha strike with 3-5 disruptor tac consoles could easily put out a debuff somewhere between 4 to 7 times higher than intended. This edge case of burst damage is part of why alpha strikes were regularly so absurd (though a very small part - the largest part is the extent to which our damage buff powers can stack on a given entity)
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Hawk, I could kiss you for that. That quote deserves to be framed and shown to all the people on the forum every time something like this pops up, no matter what it is. That just earned you some MAJOR brownie points in my book.
Question: Was this same issue happening on ground Disruptor weapons as well? If yes, is that also getting fixed?
Actually, Polaron was changed quite awhile back as well. Not just with Power Insulators protecting against them, but also in the mechanics was changed with them.
Tetryon was indirectly hit with the PI resist as well back when the skill tree change went through.