APD wouldn't apply -47.1 to all targets. It would apply that to the 0 resistance target, but the other two targets would resist a % of that debuff equal to their % DR at the time the debuff was applied.
So the 0 resistance guy would remain the same...
...but the following two would go from SandyBrown to YellowGreen then?
37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 47.1 = -10.6%, meaning 110.6% damage is taken. 37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 34.4 (47.1 * 0.63) = 3%, meaning 97% damage is taken.
An increase of 24% damage instead of an increase of 37.6%.
An increase of 10.3% instead of an increase of 20.6%.
Hrmmm, looking at that 0 resist guy though:
0 DRM - 47.1 = -84.4%, meaning 184.4% damage is taken.
Are we using the right formula for that negative DR? The same formula: DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))
Because as has been pointed out in this thread - those negative numbers get pretty heinous.
And, hrmm - it also creates a complicated issue, no? (as frtoaster pointed out)
Going back to that poor 0 resist guy:
He starts off with 0 resist (0 DRM/0% DR).
He shoots at somebody with APD up that ends up tagging him with the -47.1 debuff.
So his new DR would be: -84.4%
He's taking 184.4% damage.
With the APD still there, somebody else pegs him with APB which would apply a -37.8 debuff.
That gets modified by his current resistance though. (1-(-.844)); 1.844 * -37.8 = -69.7
So his new DR would be: -1456%
He's taking 1556% damage.
Before he can utter the curse, he's hit by T'varo Torp - which would apply a -33 debuff.
Again, that gets modified by his current resistance. (1-(-14.56)); 15.56 * -33 = -513.5
So his new DR would be: 67.7%
He's taking 32.3% damage.
So uh, yeah...is there a separate formula or a manner in which folks should try to figure out -DR?
Hawk, I could kiss you for that. That quote deserves to be framed and shown to all the people on the forum every time something like this pops up, no matter what it is. That just earned you some MAJOR brownie points in my book.
Question: Was this same issue happening on ground Disruptor weapons as well? If yes, is that also getting fixed?
Fair play to him, and I apologise for my angry rant of a post, it's just annoying that this has been broken since launch, I finally invest in mark 12 purple consoles and the fix it's less than a week later.
Just typical timing.
I apologise Hawk, I know you're only doing what is best for the game
I wouldn't usually respond to sentiment like this, because I don't like to reward negativity on the forums, but this is just simply not true. I'm not fixing this because PvPers thought it was bad - I'm fixing it because it breaks the rules of how our game is supposed to work. That the NPCs don't come on the forums and post about how unfair disruptors are means you're not really going to see a lot of PvE complaints about them, but that doesn't mean they should just stay broken.
so getting a response from a dev/mod is considerd a "reward"?
like: good job boy here is yha coockie?
sorry, but some players here pay your loan at the end of the month!
so i dont think its smart to consider giving attention to the playersbase is a reward,and to have such an attitude with it.
Quick replying to thread - my example using percentage values was hypothetical. Disruptor debuff was and still will be a flat resistance rating debuff - I just wanted to explain the underlying principle of Resistance resisting changes to resistance, and that was numerically easier to demonstrate with a percentage case than a flat debuff case.
I understand that you were trying to simplify things for us, but sometimes this creates more confusion than just telling us how it actually works.
An increase of 10.3% instead of an increase of 20.6%.
Hrmmm, looking at that 0 resist guy though:
0 DRM - 47.1 = -84.4%, meaning 184.4% damage is taken.
Are we using the right formula for that negative DR? The same formula: DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))
Because as has been pointed out in this thread - those negative numbers get pretty heinous.
And, hrmm - it also creates a complicated issue, no? (as frtoaster pointed out)
Going back to that poor 0 resist guy:
He starts off with 0 resist (0 DRM/0% DR).
He shoots at somebody with APD up that ends up tagging him with the -47.1 debuff.
So his new DR would be: -84.4%
He's taking 184.4% damage.
With the APD still there, somebody else pegs him with APB which would apply a -37.8 debuff.
That gets modified by his current resistance though. (1-(-.844)); 1.844 * -37.8 = -69.7
So his new DR would be: -1456%
He's taking 1556% damage.
Before he can utter the curse, he's hit by T'varo Torp - which would apply a -33 debuff.
Again, that gets modified by his current resistance. (1-(-14.56)); 15.56 * -33 = -513.5
So his new DR would be: 67.7%
He's taking 32.3% damage.
So uh, yeah...is there a separate formula or a manner in which folks should try to figure out -DR?
I would also like to know what happens with negative damage resistance ratings. According to the formula we have, the resistance percentage approaches to minus infinity as the resistance rating approaches -150. Perhaps, one rarely sees negative resistance ratings of this magnitude. Still, this asymptotic behavior can't be desirable: it amplifies the effect of negative resistance ratings.
A separate question I have is how shield resistance debuffs work: Is there are separate formula for that, or does it work just like shield resistance buffs, but with signs reversed?
Well I wonder what will be hit next ... Phaser and Plasma were hit (and Antiproton long ago), now Disruptor ... I guess that leaves Polaron to be the one taking a hit next.
Oh come on and wake up. The proc for Disruptors is to reduce damage resistance to ALL damage by a flat amount not ALL damage except for Disruptor damage. It's a blatantly, blindingly obvious is a bug.
so getting a response from a dev/mod is considerd a "reward"?
like: good job boy here is yha coockie?
sorry, but some players here pay your loan at the end of the month!
so i dont think its smart to consider giving attention to the playersbase is a reward,and to have such an attitude with it.
LOL
Dude I heard you moaning in Opvp this morning as well.
Get over it... the dev has set the record right.
No matter how much we QQ about something it doesn't get a fix unless it is in fact broken.
In this case yes we all know it was broken. I don't know what patch along the way broke it but we all know that it was broken by accident at some point.
Disruptors used to be an ok weapon that was pretty balanced but not insane... and it really didn't matter if you where a Science Engi or Tac captain they did about the same debuff.
At some point they broke that... if I had to guess it would be code tied to the same code that for awhile was giving massive resist numbers to Attack Pattern Delta via tactical buffs.
In any event it will be fixed shortly so get over it.
Run Disruptors if you like still they are still quite viable... they are still one of the only wepaon types that allows you to stack a ton of procs thanks to lockbox weapons.
I have 1 or 2 toons that are running disruptors now and they will be later as well.
If you don't want to run them anymore cause there not broken any longer feel free to grab a set of polarons or tetryons or phasers... or phased polaron or phased tetryon... or perhaps be wild and grab some APs... bottom line is you shouldn't see to much difference in your DPS numbers... Base dmg is always base dmg... the procs are just nice little adds.
PS I also send $ there way... and I appreciate them WORKING on the game... I appreciate that they are willing to take a second or two to set people right as to why they in fact word during the day as well.
Please nerf alpha-strikes more ... it's not necessary to destroy a over 61k hitpoints + 12k shields engi cruiser with 1-2 shots. Some player can only fight this way.
It's so funny reading people saying "you &^$%$*$ - why did you have to go a take the Disruptors unfair advantage away - that is so unfair!! I am going to stomp my feet till i get my unfair advantage back!!"
Because Disruptor debuffs were being boosted by bonus damage, a de-cloaking disruptor boat running a full alpha strike with 3-5 disruptor tac consoles could easily put out a debuff somewhere between 4 to 7 times higher than intended. This edge case of burst damage is part of why alpha strikes were regularly so absurd (though a very small part - the largest part is the extent to which our damage buff powers can stack on a given entity)
I'm just noting this for your benefit in case you don't know: You do realize that "perfect" PvP play in the current game, players just don't die? Its way to easy to absorb damage with all the gear and rep powers and etc that have cropped up. It takes a fully buffed Alpha Strike with 2 or 3 SNB to reliably kill another player. Also, notice how an Engineer doesn't really factor into that (and won't survive any easier, since his/her Engy capt powers will also get SNB'd off; honestly, I could also go into how Engy [and Sci] aren't useful for PvE either, but that isn't the point of this post).
I'm just noting this for your benefit in case you don't know: You do realize that "perfect" PvP play in the current game, players just don't die? Its way to easy to absorb damage with all the gear and rep powers and etc that have cropped up. It takes a fully buffed Alpha Strike with 2 or 3 SNB to reliably kill another player. Also, notice how an Engineer doesn't really factor into that (and won't survive any easier, since his/her Engy capt powers will also get SNB'd off; honestly, I could also go into how Engy [and Sci] aren't useful for PvE either, but that isn't the point of this post).
Not true... the meta has changed... it no longer takes 3 sci to complete a match with out wanting to gouge your eyes out.
Dude I heard you moaning in Opvp this morning as well.
Get over it... the dev has set the record right.
No matter how much we QQ about something it doesn't get a fix unless it is in fact broken.
In this case yes we all know it was broken. I don't know what patch along the way broke it but we all know that it was broken by accident at some point.
Disruptors used to be an ok weapon that was pretty balanced but not insane... and it really didn't matter if you where a Science Engi or Tac captain they did about the same debuff.
At some point they broke that... if I had to guess it would be code tied to the same code that for awhile was giving massive resist numbers to Attack Pattern Delta via tactical buffs.
In any event it will be fixed shortly so get over it.
Run Disruptors if you like still they are still quite viable... they are still one of the only wepaon types that allows you to stack a ton of procs thanks to lockbox weapons.
I have 1 or 2 toons that are running disruptors now and they will be later as well.
If you don't want to run them anymore cause there not broken any longer feel free to grab a set of polarons or tetryons or phasers... or phased polaron or phased tetryon... or perhaps be wild and grab some APs... bottom line is you shouldn't see to much difference in your DPS numbers... Base dmg is always base dmg... the procs are just nice little adds.
PS I also send $ there way... and I appreciate them WORKING on the game... I appreciate that they are willing to take a second or two to set people right as to why they in fact word during the day as well.
all above doesnt make any change that this dev calls his attention a reward,which clearly states that he feels like god, which isnt a good attitude to have to your customers, who are aswell the people who pay his loan, you aswell as me.if i go to a shop and i ask a qeustion, and the guy working in the shop says that he rewards me with his mighty attention, i would punch him down to the ground.
about youre post,yeah, that one guy in pvp got almost the same attitude.
you are corrrect about the point that base damage still is the same damage,the problem is, that a minority of players, or whinners, get what they want,a nerf to a specific weapon proc,that weapon is the main weapon of a faction,that,which is another story,but this fits in perfectly,almost get no new stuff,ships or the attention reward for being nice,a nerf to a whole bunch of fleet weaponry,aswell as a double nerf for fleet weapons on klingon side.
thats the problem, a small amount of whinners getting what they want, TRIBBLE everything listed above,and get away with it. also, doesnt a plasma proc gets boosted in another way? when we gonna nerf that????
This is just annoying. 2nd time this past month PvP players get an express (24 hours or less) bug fix while the MACO costume bug remains as "were working on it" status for 3 months.
This is just annoying. 2nd time this past month PvP players get an express (24 hours or less) bug fix while the MACO costume bug remains as "were working on it" status for 3 months.
not all pvpers agree with this absurd move mate, and yeah, the maco bug sucks.
i'm sorry not everyone gets rewarded with attention...
all above doesnt make any change that this dev calls his attention a reward,which clearly states that he feels like god, which isnt a good attitude to have to your customers, who are aswell the people who pay his loan, you aswell as me.
If he had said any of that...all sorts of folks would have been all over him.
But as he didn't say that...er...
All he said was...
"I wouldn't usually respond to sentiment like this, because I don't like to reward negativity on the forums, but this is just simply not true."
It's not saying that his replies or attention is a reward. It's no different than what the mods tell folks - don't respond to TRIBBLE like that, don't give them the attention (don't reward them), etc, etc, etc.
It's so funny reading people saying "you &^$%$*$ - why did you have to go a take the Disruptors unfair advantage away - that is so unfair!! I am going to stomp my feet till i get my unfair advantage back!!"
Ahem, there are little pieces of Cheetos all over my desk now...damn you!
This is just annoying. 2nd time this past month PvP players get an express (24 hours or less) bug fix while the MACO costume bug remains as "were working on it" status for 3 months.
An express fix? 24 hours or less?
This thread was started 4/24...
...almost three months later, there is a patch on Tribble - that doesn't address the issues raised in this thread.
Seriously?
Man, oh man...I don't think I have enough Excedrin to deal with the /quadruplefacepalm you just caused me...
If he had said any of that...all sorts of folks would have been all over him.
But as he didn't say that...er...
All he said was...
"I wouldn't usually respond to sentiment like this, because I don't like to reward negativity on the forums, but this is just simply not true."
It's not saying that his replies or attention is a reward. It's no different than what the mods tell folks - don't respond to TRIBBLE like that, don't give them the attention (don't reward them), etc, etc, etc.
That's all he said...sheesh.
well, he says that he normally doesn response to such a thing,because he dont like to reward it...
his responses are an reward, thats how grammer applies in my country, how does it do in yours?
all above doesnt make any change that this dev calls his attention a reward,which clearly states that he feels like god, which isnt a good attitude to have to your customers, who are aswell the people who pay his loan, you aswell as me.if i go to a shop and i ask a qeustion, and the guy working in the shop says that he rewards me with his mighty attention, i would punch him down to the ground.
about youre post,yeah, that one guy in pvp got almost the same attitude.
you are corrrect about the point that base damage still is the same damage,the problem is, that a minority of players, or whinners, get what they want,a nerf to a specific weapon proc,that weapon is the main weapon of a faction,that,which is another story,but this fits in perfectly,almost get no new stuff,ships or the attention reward for being nice,a nerf to a whole bunch of fleet weaponry,aswell as a double nerf for fleet weapons on klingon side.
thats the problem, a small amount of whinners getting what they want, TRIBBLE everything listed above,and get away with it. also, doesnt a plasma proc gets boosted in another way? when we gonna nerf that????
Your analogy is a terrible one.
The Dev that responded to you isn't a garage mechanic... if your analogy was to apply it would be more like getting a personal letter from one of the Designers of your Ford F-150 when they recall a seat warmer. In general guys like that are under strict orders to not talk to end customers. You can be upset by the use of the word "reward" all you like. Frankly I think you need to bone up on your English a little bit. You are reading meaning into a sentence that was not worded that way.
The proc was not working as intended. Honestly if you are upset that you blew thousands of Dithium on a set of fleet disruptors that you now feel are less then you expected. Take it up with customer service. Not the Game Designer who's job it is to ensure that all mechanics are uniform. He felt he needed to come here and try to explain to you that PvP or no PvP he would have made the change anyway.
Honestly if you claim to have been listening to the Disruptor QQ... and descriptions of exactly how it was broken for as long as you have. Perhaps you should have taken that into consideration before dropping your hard earned D on them. lol
I think any long time player in this game could have told you that at some point they would get corrected. We all knew they where off, honestly I think if you scroll back in this thread I bet you can find one of the big bad PvPers warning people that they would in fact be corrected at some point.
In any event... relax your fleet disruptors are still killer... and if you have the E versions they are still far and away the best weapons in the game... so chill out.
well, he says that he normally doesn response to such a thing,because he dont like to reward it...
his responses are an reward, thats how grammer applies in my country, how does it do in yours?
So I guess English isn't your first language then. You can be excused if that is the case... as the English language has more synonyms then any other language. Not to mention multiple archaic rules which apply in some situations and not others. In any event I will let Mandy P sum it up for us.
well, he says that he normally doesn response to such a thing,because he dont like to reward it...
his responses are an reward, thats how grammer applies in my country, how does it do in yours?
"I wouldn't usually respond to sentiment like this, because I don't like to reward negativity on the forums, but this is just simply not true."
I would not usually respond to sentiment like this...
...because I do not like to reward negativity on the forums...
...but this is just simply not true.
So what was the "this" he was talking about?
"ARGH. More PvP whining ***** getting this nerfed for the rest of the community.
You nerfed my disruptors, DAMN YOU!, DAMN YOU!"
A negative behavior/outburst, although I believe top was just po'd - it's often a form of trolling, flaming, etc, etc, etc - where folks are exhibiting a negative behavior in the hopes of being rewarded by some attention...hence the mods preferring folks not reward trolls with attention by replying to their posts, etc, etc, etc.
EDIT: No, I don't think that Hawk was hinting at anything of the sort - just really surprised that it wasn't the kind of thing folks jumped the gun on and that he had to come in to do damage control...
Because Disruptor debuffs were being boosted by bonus damage, a de-cloaking disruptor boat running a full alpha strike with 3-5 disruptor tac consoles could easily put out a debuff somewhere between 4 to 7 times higher than intended. This edge case of burst damage is part of why alpha strikes were regularly so absurd (though a very small part - the largest part is the extent to which our damage buff powers can stack on a given entity)
I'm kind of surprised that more hasn't been said about this part from folks...well, the part in red.
First though: So a person with 3-5 Disruptor Tac Consoles could easily put out a debuff between 4 to 7 times higher than intended? Did Hawk just tell folks how to exploit the Disruptor proc until this particular patch hits Holo? Tsk, tsk, tsk...
Okay then, back to the part in red then.
So the borked Disruptor proc was part of the reason that alpha strikes were regularly so absurd. Alpha strikes...regularly absurd.
BUT...big but here...BUT...it is just a very small part.
"the largest part is the extent to which our damage buff powers can stack on a given entity"
So uh, they addressed that very small part...does that mean they're going to also address...the largest part?
Addressing how damage buff powers can stack, eh?
Yeah, that's where I expected the angry mob with pitchforks to come storming in...
I'm kind of surprised that more hasn't been said about this part from folks...well, the part in red.
First though: So a person with 3-5 Disruptor Tac Consoles could easily put out a debuff between 4 to 7 times higher than intended? Did Hawk just tell folks how to exploit the Disruptor proc until this particular patch hits Holo? Tsk, tsk, tsk...
Okay then, back to the part in red then.
So the borked Disruptor proc was part of the reason that alpha strikes were regularly so absurd. Alpha strikes...regularly absurd.
BUT...big but here...BUT...it is just a very small part.
"the largest part is the extent to which our damage buff powers can stack on a given entity"
So uh, they addressed that very small part...does that mean they're going to also address...the largest part?
Addressing how damage buff powers can stack, eh?
Yeah, that's where I expected the angry mob with pitchforks to come storming in...
No, it doesn't mean that. Shut down the pitchfork vendor. :P
We're not planning on making sweeping changes to game combat or mechanics - such changes would be extremely risky. I think anyone who's seen an alpha strike practically "one-shot" someone can agree that the potential difference between Burst DPS and Sustained DPS in our game is extremely large. You can infer from my opinion here that generally speaking, stuff I make will try to slightly assuage this trend rather than exacerbate it, but that's really all.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
No, it doesn't mean that. Shut down the pitchfork vendor. :P
We're not planning on making sweeping changes to game combat or mechanics - such changes would be extremely risky. I think anyone who's seen an alpha strike practically "one-shot" someone can agree that the potential difference between Burst DPS and Sustained DPS in our game is extremely large. You can infer from my opinion here that generally speaking, stuff I make will try to slightly assuage this trend rather than exacerbate it, but that's really all.
Meh, I didn't edit that post - meant to edit it. I've been caught up in the thread in another section of the forums where somebody made the declaration that you guys hate Sci.
Basically though, I meant to add that I didn't think that's what you were saying, but that would be the kind of things folks love to jump on anybody and taking it all over the place.
Besides, that's already been hit for some folks with the change to GDF - they lost 24.9% from their alphas with that.
Want to thank you for sharing some of the math with us - there's some of us that we wonder if we spend more time with spreadsheets than in the game these days, and we eat up the math stuff. Might not always be happy with the the numbers, but at least having an understanding of how they got there - it's easier to deal with.
No, it doesn't mean that. Shut down the pitchfork vendor. :P
We're not planning on making sweeping changes to game combat or mechanics - such changes would be extremely risky. I think anyone who's seen an alpha strike practically "one-shot" someone can agree that the potential difference between Burst DPS and Sustained DPS in our game is extremely large. You can infer from my opinion here that generally speaking, stuff I make will try to slightly assuage this trend rather than exacerbate it, but that's really all.
its really time to get rid of sustained dps then. what makes the DHC so great is its damage per volly, applied all at once faster then shields can be manually distributed to totally counter. changing beam arrays and single cannons so thier fireing cycles were more similar to DHCs, that would go a long way toward leveling the effectiveness playing field. heavy single cannons already exist in game, several borg npcs have them. a conversion of single cannons so those heavy cannons would do them a world of good. and if beams fired only twice, or even once per cycle, each hit would leave an abrupt mark, and ships wouldn't look like ridiculous disco balls. it would look a lot closer to canon as well, and be a buff they need without actually changing their DPS.
also, there would be no noticeable effect in pve, since npcs dont distribute thier shields or react to incoming fire, there no difference between spike and sustained to them, its just the dps that maters, and thats not changing
also, there would be no noticeable effect in pve, since npcs dont distribute thier shields or react to incoming fire, there no difference between spike and sustained to them, its just the dps that maters, and thats not changing
I'm kind of curious about how that would actually affect PvE, though. I'm not one of those 5 minute guys, not one of those 20k+ guys...I muddle through PvE like I do PvP, flying around going wheeeee and shooting at whatever.
I know cruisers deal more dps than escorts, highest escort dps I know is 26k when highest cruiser dps I know is 27.8k, and all you need to do in cruiser is spam spacebar.
I did 21.4k dps before with my spacebar cruiser.
When you say that bfaw does 4k dps to 1 foe, remember if you have 5 cruisers, then it's that 20-27k dps to everything around, therefore the dps is legit. Any dps that heals back is not legit, all stfs have such "healing" but how legit can you be about dps?
I did that eyebleed post about the change in cycles somewhere - and - for the life of me I can't remember what that ended up saying, lol. Now I remember, I ended up complaining that the issue was the result of healing/resists and not the damage - that even in changing things, there would still be the issue because of healing/resists. I think.
In GW2, there are a set number of buff/debuff types, and there are fixed stacking limits for each. So maybe the debuff is 'slow', which reduces movement by 3%, and it can stack 10 times. (Made-up numbers.)
Many abilities might put one or more stacks of slow on you, but the total, worst case debuff is -30%.
That has to make balancing easier.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
No, it doesn't mean that. Shut down the pitchfork vendor. :P
We're not planning on making sweeping changes to game combat or mechanics - such changes would be extremely risky. I think anyone who's seen an alpha strike practically "one-shot" someone can agree that the potential difference between Burst DPS and Sustained DPS in our game is extremely large. You can infer from my opinion here that generally speaking, stuff I make will try to slightly assuage this trend rather than exacerbate it, but that's really all.
Wow, i think that is the first time that a DEV as publicly admitted what the pvp community has been screaming milk man about since I don't know when.
I have my doubts that small adjustments can cut it, but you go ahead. Overdue doesn't begin to describe the current state of the game.
No, it doesn't mean that. Shut down the pitchfork vendor. :P
What did i do ??
Mk XII pitchfork [acc]x4 anyone ?
Keybind: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9355971&postcount=463
Bone1970 don't believe in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
Bone Trader don't belief in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
Bone2 don't believe in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. KDF Eng.
Warning: Not a native English-speaker, sorry if my English sucks.
Comments
So the 0 resistance guy would remain the same...
...but the following two would go from SandyBrown to YellowGreen then?
37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 47.1 = -10.6%, meaning 110.6% damage is taken.
37.5 DRM (27% DR) - 34.4 (47.1 * 0.63) = 3%, meaning 97% damage is taken.
An increase of 24% damage instead of an increase of 37.6%.
73 DRM (base + APO3 / 41.1%) - 47.1 = 20.5%, 79.5% damage is taken.
73 DRM (base + APO3 / 41.1%) - 27.7 (47.1 * 0.589) = 30.8%, 69.2% damage is taken.
An increase of 10.3% instead of an increase of 20.6%.
Hrmmm, looking at that 0 resist guy though:
0 DRM - 47.1 = -84.4%, meaning 184.4% damage is taken.
Are we using the right formula for that negative DR? The same formula:
DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2))
Because as has been pointed out in this thread - those negative numbers get pretty heinous.
And, hrmm - it also creates a complicated issue, no? (as frtoaster pointed out)
Going back to that poor 0 resist guy:
He starts off with 0 resist (0 DRM/0% DR).
He shoots at somebody with APD up that ends up tagging him with the -47.1 debuff.
So his new DR would be: -84.4%
He's taking 184.4% damage.
With the APD still there, somebody else pegs him with APB which would apply a -37.8 debuff.
That gets modified by his current resistance though. (1-(-.844)); 1.844 * -37.8 = -69.7
So his new DR would be: -1456%
He's taking 1556% damage.
Before he can utter the curse, he's hit by T'varo Torp - which would apply a -33 debuff.
Again, that gets modified by his current resistance. (1-(-14.56)); 15.56 * -33 = -513.5
So his new DR would be: 67.7%
He's taking 32.3% damage.
So uh, yeah...is there a separate formula or a manner in which folks should try to figure out -DR?
Fair play to him, and I apologise for my angry rant of a post, it's just annoying that this has been broken since launch, I finally invest in mark 12 purple consoles and the fix it's less than a week later.
Just typical timing.
I apologise Hawk, I know you're only doing what is best for the game
Kirk's Protege.
so getting a response from a dev/mod is considerd a "reward"?
like: good job boy here is yha coockie?
sorry, but some players here pay your loan at the end of the month!
so i dont think its smart to consider giving attention to the playersbase is a reward,and to have such an attitude with it.
I understand that you were trying to simplify things for us, but sometimes this creates more confusion than just telling us how it actually works.
I would also like to know what happens with negative damage resistance ratings. According to the formula we have, the resistance percentage approaches to minus infinity as the resistance rating approaches -150. Perhaps, one rarely sees negative resistance ratings of this magnitude. Still, this asymptotic behavior can't be desirable: it amplifies the effect of negative resistance ratings.
A separate question I have is how shield resistance debuffs work: Is there are separate formula for that, or does it work just like shield resistance buffs, but with signs reversed?
Phasers still rule, so does polaron.
Oh come on and wake up. The proc for Disruptors is to reduce damage resistance to ALL damage by a flat amount not ALL damage except for Disruptor damage. It's a blatantly, blindingly obvious is a bug.
LOL
Dude I heard you moaning in Opvp this morning as well.
Get over it... the dev has set the record right.
No matter how much we QQ about something it doesn't get a fix unless it is in fact broken.
In this case yes we all know it was broken. I don't know what patch along the way broke it but we all know that it was broken by accident at some point.
Disruptors used to be an ok weapon that was pretty balanced but not insane... and it really didn't matter if you where a Science Engi or Tac captain they did about the same debuff.
At some point they broke that... if I had to guess it would be code tied to the same code that for awhile was giving massive resist numbers to Attack Pattern Delta via tactical buffs.
In any event it will be fixed shortly so get over it.
Run Disruptors if you like still they are still quite viable... they are still one of the only wepaon types that allows you to stack a ton of procs thanks to lockbox weapons.
I have 1 or 2 toons that are running disruptors now and they will be later as well.
If you don't want to run them anymore cause there not broken any longer feel free to grab a set of polarons or tetryons or phasers... or phased polaron or phased tetryon... or perhaps be wild and grab some APs... bottom line is you shouldn't see to much difference in your DPS numbers... Base dmg is always base dmg... the procs are just nice little adds.
PS I also send $ there way... and I appreciate them WORKING on the game... I appreciate that they are willing to take a second or two to set people right as to why they in fact word during the day as well.
Not true... the meta has changed... it no longer takes 3 sci to complete a match with out wanting to gouge your eyes out.
People are starting to adjust.
all above doesnt make any change that this dev calls his attention a reward,which clearly states that he feels like god, which isnt a good attitude to have to your customers, who are aswell the people who pay his loan, you aswell as me.if i go to a shop and i ask a qeustion, and the guy working in the shop says that he rewards me with his mighty attention, i would punch him down to the ground.
about youre post,yeah, that one guy in pvp got almost the same attitude.
you are corrrect about the point that base damage still is the same damage,the problem is, that a minority of players, or whinners, get what they want,a nerf to a specific weapon proc,that weapon is the main weapon of a faction,that,which is another story,but this fits in perfectly,almost get no new stuff,ships or the attention reward for being nice,a nerf to a whole bunch of fleet weaponry,aswell as a double nerf for fleet weapons on klingon side.
thats the problem, a small amount of whinners getting what they want, TRIBBLE everything listed above,and get away with it. also, doesnt a plasma proc gets boosted in another way? when we gonna nerf that????
not all pvpers agree with this absurd move mate, and yeah, the maco bug sucks.
i'm sorry not everyone gets rewarded with attention...
If he had said any of that...all sorts of folks would have been all over him.
But as he didn't say that...er...
All he said was...
"I wouldn't usually respond to sentiment like this, because I don't like to reward negativity on the forums, but this is just simply not true."
It's not saying that his replies or attention is a reward. It's no different than what the mods tell folks - don't respond to TRIBBLE like that, don't give them the attention (don't reward them), etc, etc, etc.
That's all he said...sheesh.
Ahem, there are little pieces of Cheetos all over my desk now...damn you!
An express fix? 24 hours or less?
This thread was started 4/24...
...almost three months later, there is a patch on Tribble - that doesn't address the issues raised in this thread.
Seriously?
Man, oh man...I don't think I have enough Excedrin to deal with the /quadruplefacepalm you just caused me...
well, he says that he normally doesn response to such a thing,because he dont like to reward it...
his responses are an reward, thats how grammer applies in my country, how does it do in yours?
Your analogy is a terrible one.
The Dev that responded to you isn't a garage mechanic... if your analogy was to apply it would be more like getting a personal letter from one of the Designers of your Ford F-150 when they recall a seat warmer. In general guys like that are under strict orders to not talk to end customers. You can be upset by the use of the word "reward" all you like. Frankly I think you need to bone up on your English a little bit. You are reading meaning into a sentence that was not worded that way.
The proc was not working as intended. Honestly if you are upset that you blew thousands of Dithium on a set of fleet disruptors that you now feel are less then you expected. Take it up with customer service. Not the Game Designer who's job it is to ensure that all mechanics are uniform. He felt he needed to come here and try to explain to you that PvP or no PvP he would have made the change anyway.
Honestly if you claim to have been listening to the Disruptor QQ... and descriptions of exactly how it was broken for as long as you have. Perhaps you should have taken that into consideration before dropping your hard earned D on them. lol
I think any long time player in this game could have told you that at some point they would get corrected. We all knew they where off, honestly I think if you scroll back in this thread I bet you can find one of the big bad PvPers warning people that they would in fact be corrected at some point.
In any event... relax your fleet disruptors are still killer... and if you have the E versions they are still far and away the best weapons in the game... so chill out.
Ya not all... just 99%.... pretty much everyone minus borg. lol
Also this disruptor mechanic has been bug reported by multiple people multiple times over the last 5-6 months for sure... and perhaps before that.
So I guess English isn't your first language then. You can be excused if that is the case... as the English language has more synonyms then any other language. Not to mention multiple archaic rules which apply in some situations and not others. In any event I will let Mandy P sum it up for us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIP6EwqMEoE
"I wouldn't usually respond to sentiment like this, because I don't like to reward negativity on the forums, but this is just simply not true."
I would not usually respond to sentiment like this...
...because I do not like to reward negativity on the forums...
...but this is just simply not true.
So what was the "this" he was talking about?
"ARGH. More PvP whining ***** getting this nerfed for the rest of the community.
You nerfed my disruptors, DAMN YOU!, DAMN YOU!"
A negative behavior/outburst, although I believe top was just po'd - it's often a form of trolling, flaming, etc, etc, etc - where folks are exhibiting a negative behavior in the hopes of being rewarded by some attention...hence the mods preferring folks not reward trolls with attention by replying to their posts, etc, etc, etc.
doesnt me as only one who dont agree not make it 99.99999999999% ? XD
ok, your last post (139#) cleared up some, i agree, my enghlish isnt that good,granted its my second language.
also, the dev in qeustion didnt response to a post of me, but to one from someone else, and if he didnt mean reward as in i took it, then its ok.
and if you say my disruptors are still killer, then i will believe yha, for once XD
I'm kind of surprised that more hasn't been said about this part from folks...well, the part in red.
First though: So a person with 3-5 Disruptor Tac Consoles could easily put out a debuff between 4 to 7 times higher than intended? Did Hawk just tell folks how to exploit the Disruptor proc until this particular patch hits Holo? Tsk, tsk, tsk...
Okay then, back to the part in red then.
So the borked Disruptor proc was part of the reason that alpha strikes were regularly so absurd. Alpha strikes...regularly absurd.
BUT...big but here...BUT...it is just a very small part.
"the largest part is the extent to which our damage buff powers can stack on a given entity"
So uh, they addressed that very small part...does that mean they're going to also address...the largest part?
Addressing how damage buff powers can stack, eh?
Yeah, that's where I expected the angry mob with pitchforks to come storming in...
No, it doesn't mean that. Shut down the pitchfork vendor. :P
We're not planning on making sweeping changes to game combat or mechanics - such changes would be extremely risky. I think anyone who's seen an alpha strike practically "one-shot" someone can agree that the potential difference between Burst DPS and Sustained DPS in our game is extremely large. You can infer from my opinion here that generally speaking, stuff I make will try to slightly assuage this trend rather than exacerbate it, but that's really all.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Meh, I didn't edit that post - meant to edit it. I've been caught up in the thread in another section of the forums where somebody made the declaration that you guys hate Sci.
Basically though, I meant to add that I didn't think that's what you were saying, but that would be the kind of things folks love to jump on anybody and taking it all over the place.
Besides, that's already been hit for some folks with the change to GDF - they lost 24.9% from their alphas with that.
Want to thank you for sharing some of the math with us - there's some of us that we wonder if we spend more time with spreadsheets than in the game these days, and we eat up the math stuff. Might not always be happy with the the numbers, but at least having an understanding of how they got there - it's easier to deal with.
its really time to get rid of sustained dps then. what makes the DHC so great is its damage per volly, applied all at once faster then shields can be manually distributed to totally counter. changing beam arrays and single cannons so thier fireing cycles were more similar to DHCs, that would go a long way toward leveling the effectiveness playing field. heavy single cannons already exist in game, several borg npcs have them. a conversion of single cannons so those heavy cannons would do them a world of good. and if beams fired only twice, or even once per cycle, each hit would leave an abrupt mark, and ships wouldn't look like ridiculous disco balls. it would look a lot closer to canon as well, and be a buff they need without actually changing their DPS.
also, there would be no noticeable effect in pve, since npcs dont distribute thier shields or react to incoming fire, there no difference between spike and sustained to them, its just the dps that maters, and thats not changing
I'm kind of curious about how that would actually affect PvE, though. I'm not one of those 5 minute guys, not one of those 20k+ guys...I muddle through PvE like I do PvP, flying around going wheeeee and shooting at whatever.
Still though, I saw this from sax...
I did that eyebleed post about the change in cycles somewhere - and - for the life of me I can't remember what that ended up saying, lol. Now I remember, I ended up complaining that the issue was the result of healing/resists and not the damage - that even in changing things, there would still be the issue because of healing/resists. I think.
Meh, I'm going to smoke...
Many abilities might put one or more stacks of slow on you, but the total, worst case debuff is -30%.
That has to make balancing easier.
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Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
Wow, i think that is the first time that a DEV as publicly admitted what the pvp community has been screaming milk man about since I don't know when.
I have my doubts that small adjustments can cut it, but you go ahead. Overdue doesn't begin to describe the current state of the game.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
What did i do ??
Mk XII pitchfork [acc]x4 anyone ?
Bone1970 don't believe in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
Bone Trader don't belief in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
Bone2 don't believe in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. KDF Eng.
Warning: Not a native English-speaker, sorry if my English sucks.