There are only two types of situations I've observed where Bugships go down;
1. Against other Bugships-full stop.
2. When the pilot's clearly flying something he bought in his first ever PvP experience-as in mistakes Raptor or FedScort jockeys don't tend to make, even when they ARE new-i.e. incredibly, mind-blowingly, elementary mistakes-like burning all your defensive buffs into cooldown in the middle of a hostile FedBall with Trics set to go off nearby, then STOPPING like you're hammering Probes on KASE.
The reason why some bugships stop dead in the middle of a fed ball is becuse they usually have been hit by SNB,VM Target engins and some console goodness all at once. so what do most ppl do when the are immobilized looking at a set of trics moving toward them knowing there is a good chance that evey mine that hits them will crit. im guessing they are going to hit most buffs to try and get the F@%K away.
There are only two types of situations I've observed where Bugships go down;
1. Against other Bugships-full stop.
2. When the pilot's clearly flying something he bought in his first ever PvP experience-as in mistakes Raptor or FedScort jockeys don't tend to make, even when they ARE new-i.e. incredibly, mind-blowingly, elementary mistakes-like burning all your defensive buffs into cooldown in the middle of a hostile FedBall with Trics set to go off nearby, then STOPPING like you're hammering Probes on KASE.
The reason why some bugships stop dead in the middle of a fed ball is becuse they usually have been hit by SNB,VM Target engins and some console goodness all at once. so what do most ppl do when the are immobilized looking at a set of trics moving toward them knowing there is a good chance that evey mine that hits them will crit. im guessing they are going to hit most buffs to try and get the F@%K away.
...dunno how much jem deflector's are on my wall, but more than just a few i would guess... all "collected" with several ships . and again: i'm not a pro... it's not about the ship, there's much more to consider.
if you were right i have to ask why, when i'm in my own bug, i'm not immortal and seem to die more often than f.e. in my steamrunner?
you know what? my performance always depends on the actual match! who's in my team, who's on the other, how the teams work together, outbalances/outclasses each other and within themselves. how about my playstyle, how about every others'..
those are the variables for my own success when i pvp in my bug or any other ship (believe me: even in my bug i already got beaten to the hell some of you want the bug to burn in... and not only from other bugs )...
There no reason for it to be balanced, that thinking would make it so that everything was the same and there would be no variety. there's different layouts on different ships with different stats for a reason. Your just showing even again how in-experienced you are.
At the end of the day you want everyone on beam boats with all the same stats and layouts, get real man this is just a game.
Id have to agree with this bottom part, that would suck if all ships were same/equal ect ect....i like the differences and how you have to plan differently when fighting each one. I fly a bug myself, i have dishes out butt whoopins and taken plenty as well, a friend of mine in our fleet has a vesta and tears me up most of the time, also a guy in another fleet i 1vs1 with often and he usually wins and flies the multi-vector and has lesser gear than me, hes just a better pilot hands down. No special console,,,1 sci slot, that is bugs downside,,higher turn rate, 5 tac slots = upside, its not OP
...dunno how much jem deflector's are on my wall, but more than just a few i would guess... all "collected" with several ships . and again: i'm not a pro... it's not about the ship, there's much more to consider.
if you were right i have to ask why, when i'm in my own bug, i'm not immortal and seem to die more often than f.e. in my steamrunner?
you know what? my performance always depends on the actual match! who's in my team, who's on the other, how the teams work together, outbalances/outclasses each other and within themselves. how about my playstyle, how about every others'..
those are the variables for my own success when i pvp in my bug or any other ship (believe me: even in my bug i already got beaten to the hell some of you want the bug to burn in... and not only from other bugs )...
this right here.
lastnight i went 5-2 in the arena using my bug,,,the 2 losses were massive butt whoopins i think i got 1 kill in those 2 matches, nobody on the team spoke a word, nobody called targets, nobody healed each other (except me which is sad im healing peeps in a bug but they wont heal in a sci/eng ship) the 5 matches my team won, we stuck together and called targets and we pwned. Teamwork is bigger in team pvp then individual ship stats!! I dont care if your the best pvper on STO if your on a TRIBBLE team that doesnt communicate against an average to good team that does your going to get stomped everytime.
Id have to agree with this bottom part, that would suck if all ships were same/equal ect ect....i like the differences and how you have to plan differently when fighting each one. I fly a bug myself, i have dishes out butt whoopins and taken plenty as well, a friend of mine in our fleet has a vesta and tears me up most of the time, also a guy in another fleet i 1vs1 with often and he usually wins and flies the multi-vector and has lesser gear than me, hes just a better pilot hands down. No special console,,,1 sci slot, that is bugs downside,,higher turn rate, 5 tac slots = upside, its not OP
Yes the 1 sci slot is a downside... that is it though.
There is a reason that every experienced Escort pilot that played prior to the bug... all made SURE to get one. Even if they had to drop 400-500 mil EC to do it. Its not worth 400-500m because its only good... or even a bit better. People don't want to admit it but the more I think on it the more I have to say ya its OP. I know its not around anymore so 400-500k seems right... but lets be honest even when it was dropping like mad out of doff packs it never really dipped under 200 mil for more then a few hours perhaps at most.
Every good escort pilot switched to it even if they had to pull 24h stints fixing the exchange to do it. Lots of terrible escort pilots swapped to it as well... which is why it likely doesn't seem all that op to some people. Of course if you know what your doing you can make any ship work.... but the fact that so many people that do KNOW how the game works sold there kidneys for it if they had to says it all.
Just give my Defiant the Patrol Escort config and it's end of discussion.
Don't nerf the JHAS, just buff the other Escort options.
would be fine with that.... some other shiptypes also could use some uni-slots f.e. btw... many ships out there outclassed by newer models (galaxy in every variant except fleet-r maybe is prime example i guess) ...
atrox/recluse is another example. and one that nicely shows the difference between lockbox and z-store/"vanilla"- ships that could use some love ...
I'm getting a litte tired about this topic, so lets made some points clear. This ship need a balance is right, but not as hard as all the QQ are screaming
I will quote one of the qq'ers post for make this easy:
The Jem'hadar attack ship is the only special ship that don't have any unique console/weapon/Ability (galor, d'kora, tholian orb, tholian recluse, temporal ships, etc...all of them have something "special"), so what can they add to the ship for make it interesting? stats.
jem does not need it.[/QUOTE]
1 - Yes, is right, defiant have 17 and jemmy have 20. But defiant have the cloacking ability, jem'hadar have no speciall ability. Maybe 18-19 is a good turn rate value for balance, 1 point of BASE TURN rate is a huge diference for and escort [/QUOTE]
cloaking will work once, maybe on a respwn you can use it again.[/QUOTE]
2 - Irrelevant, we all know that escorts survialbly depends 100% on shield tanking and speed, a litle more of hull is totaly irrelevant, that won't make u "OP".[/QUOTE] well the jem does have 2 copies of epts 1 with an rsp as well as he 1 and tss2[/QUOTE]
3 - Yes but other escort can (and should) stack 2 o 3 Field generator consoles, in the end the jem'hadar is the escort with less shield in the game.[/QUOTE] i dont know where you got this info. i never ran a feild gen on my escourts.[/QUOTE]
4 - So? There are plenty of ships in this game with 1 or 2 Universal boffs, and 99% of the jemhadar captians use the same layout as the fleet patrol escort. I see no problem here.[/QUOTE] again it comes down to turn rate with healing as well as an rsp. my jem ship has 59.3 turn rate, and thats not counting on a boost from maco sheilds. or even when i use omega.[/QUOTE]
5 - Defiant have 5 too (plus can use the cloack for an deadly alpha strike), and i don't see anybody crying about that.[/QUOTE] again that cloak is used once and then you have a wasted console slot.[/QUOTE]
And what about the wells? is better than any other sci ship in the game and i don't see the QQ Army talking about it. [/QUOTE] wells is not an escourt, besides recluse is much better but thats another topic.
[/QUOTE]
There are more important issues with pvp balance, so please stop the flood in the balance topics so we can keep them clean as posible[/QUOTE] hey man i think you need to learn the game we call pvp. put a pure noob in a defaint, watch him die is about 3 secs. put an even biger noob in the jem and he will die in about 10. have to account for his rsp.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
Heck, I'm not asking for the god of all nerfs here, I'm asking for the Devs to look at the turnrate. Why? Because to compensate for not having a special console, it has superior hull and shields of any escort (not escort carriers) and a really high turn rate. Maybe nerf the turn rate one or two points (after a discussion with the pvp community to see what is the best decision) seeing as one point base on an escort is really huge.
It will still have the highest turn rate among escorts in general, and the shields and hull, but be on par with them as well for not having a unique console.
Honestly, if you gave it the same turn rate as a Defiant or an Escort Retrofit (17) it would still arguably be the best escort.
1. It would still be in a three-way tie for having the best manueverability.
2. It would have the strongest hull (+400 vs the Patrol, +1400 vs the Tactical, and +4140 vs the Escort Retrofit).
3. It would have the strongest shields with a modifier of 1 (vs .99 for the Patrol, .9 for the Tactical, and .77 for the Escort Retrofit)
4. It would have the best BOff setup, though since it's most common setups would be the same as either the Patrol Escort or Escort Retrofit, it's only a slight edge in flexibility over those two. It's unquestionably better than the Tactical Escort though.
5. It would be tied with the Patrol and Escort Retrofit for 4 Engineering consoles, better than the 3 on the Tactical.
6. It would have the worst number of science consoles at one instead of 2 for the others one of two areas where it is not the best or tied for first place.
7. It would be tied with the Tactical Escort for having the best tactical consoles.
8. Since the Tactical Escort is the only one for which a unique universal console exists, that is an advantage for it, and the only other way in which the JHAS would not still be the best or tied for first place. The Escort Retrofit has it's own universal console, but it's usable on any escort, and none of the fleet versions come with the consoles -- in all cases a lower level ship needs to be purchased in addition to the fleet one.
The JHAS would still be the "best" escort in almost every respect.
I didn't include the MVAE in the comparison, because it's a fundamentally different ship than the others. The Fleet Tactical Escort, Patrol Escort, and Escort Retrofit are all comparable, but with it's emphasis on science the MVAE is really a different thing entirely.
In it's basic mode, the MVAE is still inferior to the JHAS in almost every respect, but it would have the potential to beat the JHAS in turning in it's other modes if the JHAS were dropped down to 17 turn rate. Then the question would be whether the penalties the MVAE pays in it's other modes are enough to offset it's turn rate.
I understand the points you and others have made, but I can't help but wonder why people would think the above isn't WAI by the dev team?
Why do we continually see threads on the JHAS, but not for ships like the Wells and Recluse that are clearly at the top of their ship class as well?
Other science ships can still be very successful, even against teams that include a Wells, because most of a science ship's effectiveness is from it's BOff abilities.
Turn Rate is by far the most important attribute for an escort, and the current JHAS effectively gets a free RCS console as compared to other escorts in addition to it's other advantages.
The Wells does have the potential to carry a lot more science BOffs, and only has to give up the tactical LT which other sci ships have to do it, but there are a lot of shared cooldowns with science powers, and they are buffed by a lot of different consoles, so the Wells still needs to specialize like other science ships.
Basically, it's better, but not so much better that no other science ship can ever match it.
The problem with the JHAS is that even if you dropped it's turn rate to 17, it's still a better ship in almost every way. But because it's turn rate is so high, other escorts can't even compete.
An escort's role on a team is to be the killer. If one escort can easily keep another in it's 45? arc, while at the same time easily staying out of an opposing escort's own 45? arc, that ship gives it's team a major advantage.
Science ships have a control role, and there just isn't as much disparity there. Nothing a Wells has stops it from being controlled the way that a JHAS' maneuverability can stop it from getting cannons lined up on it.
I've ended up in 1-1's with Wellses (I know 1-1 isn't everything) and beat them in an LRSV, and in a Vesta. Not even the fleet versions. It really just came down to me getting my powers off first. I'm not going to beat a bug if I'm in a Patrol or Tactical Escort though. I can get their hull to about half sometimes, but their going to have about twice as much time on target against me as I will against them just due to the turn rate.
I don't know, maybe the Wells is a little over the top too. It's just not so far over the top as the JHAS is.
Some of the vestas can be so called OP if set up right, but i dont complain about it. The mobius may be the best "all around" escort, jem bug may be best at turn and attack, but mobius can stack mass shield cap, 4 tac consoles, cannons,,2 univerals Boffs one being a LT commander as well as the time consoles it can equip, but nobody complains about it.
Off topic ,,does anybody know that key bind you type in so you can just click enemy ship then type the letter T in team chat to call the target? The ones ive been told dont seem to work.
I don't think anyone wants the JHAS nerfed but since it's been released and ever more prevalent in PvP since they've been reintroduced, we'd like the rest of the T5, C-store and Lockbox ships reviewed and brought in line.
If that means buffing some stats and or additional console slots, then so be it.
Especially when there are a number of high-end C-store ships that have already been outdated by newer ones. Even the Fleet versions don't really hold a competative edge.
I suppose when they raise the Rank/Skill Cap and add the Romulan faction, they may introduce tougher ships or the ability to modify current ships but until then, the JHAS has been like bringing a gun to a knife fight.
The worst arguement for the JHAS is "well, if it's so OP then grind the EC and get yourself one and stop complaining."
I don't think anyone wants the JHAS nerfed but since it's been released and ever more prevalent in PvP since they've been reintroduced, we'd like the rest of the T5, C-store and Lockbox ships reviewed and brought in line.
If that means buffing some stats and or additional console slots, then so be it.
Especially when there are a number of high-end C-store ships that have already been outdated by newer ones. Even the Fleet versions don't really hold a competative edge.
I suppose when they raise the Rank/Skill Cap and add the Romulan faction, they may introduce tougher ships or the ability to modify current ships but until then, the JHAS has been like bringing a gun to a knife fight.
The worst arguement for the JHAS is "well, if it's so OP then grind the EC and get yourself one and stop complaining."
You said you don't think anyone wants it nerfed... What is this thread for then?
The Average PvP player
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
Honestly, if you gave it the same turn rate as a Defiant or an Escort Retrofit (17) it would still arguably be the best escort.
1. It would still be in a three-way tie for having the best manueverability.
2. It would have the strongest hull (+400 vs the Patrol, +1400 vs the Tactical, and +4140 vs the Escort Retrofit).
3. It would have the strongest shields with a modifier of 1 (vs .99 for the Patrol, .9 for the Tactical, and .77 for the Escort Retrofit)
4. It would have the best BOff setup, though since it's most common setups would be the same as either the Patrol Escort or Escort Retrofit, it's only a slight edge in flexibility over those two. It's unquestionably better than the Tactical Escort though.
5. It would be tied with the Patrol and Escort Retrofit for 4 Engineering consoles, better than the 3 on the Tactical.
6. It would have the worst number of science consoles at one instead of 2 for the others one of two areas where it is not the best or tied for first place.
7. It would be tied with the Tactical Escort for having the best tactical consoles.
8. Since the Tactical Escort is the only one for which a unique universal console exists, that is an advantage for it, and the only other way in which the JHAS would not still be the best or tied for first place. The Escort Retrofit has it's own universal console, but it's usable on any escort, and none of the fleet versions come with the consoles -- in all cases a lower level ship needs to be purchased in addition to the fleet one.
The JHAS would still be the "best" escort in almost every respect.
I didn't include the MVAE in the comparison, because it's a fundamentally different ship than the others. The Fleet Tactical Escort, Patrol Escort, and Escort Retrofit are all comparable, but with it's emphasis on science the MVAE is really a different thing entirely.
In it's basic mode, the MVAE is still inferior to the JHAS in almost every respect, but it would have the potential to beat the JHAS in turning in it's other modes if the JHAS were dropped down to 17 turn rate. Then the question would be whether the penalties the MVAE pays in it's other modes are enough to offset it's turn rate.
It needs something to compensate for the lack of a special console or ability. Any further needs would be discussed and tested on tribble.
The Average PvP player
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
It needs something to compensate for the lack of a special console or ability. Any further needs would be discussed and tested on tribble.
Now that I think about it, the JHAS does get a special console ability; "Victory Is Life". Only, it requires the Jem Space set, which is now upgradeable. Which means you have to use the Jem Deflector, Engines and Shields but with them you get two passives and an activatable power.
You lose a Sci Console slot and gain a 5th Tac Slot and a 4th Engineering slot for compensation.
It's the equivelant of having the best loadout combination of all three Vesta or Oddysey ships rolled into one and the console bonuses to boot.
The problem is if you don't use the Jem'Hadar Space set, the potential to max out the best of all possible worlds is apparent.
It needs something to compensate for the lack of a special console or ability. Any further needs would be discussed and tested on tribble.
also i do not agree with you in some points i have to state that you really seem to deserve that avatar .
one of the points i agree with is: so many seem to be upset about the setup (hehe) of the bug.
to prove or not to prove this in the end can only be provided by a closer look from dev's.
so *bump* and all relax a bit in your chairs :rolleyes:
Now that I think about it, the JHAS does get a special console ability; "Victory Is Life". Only, it requires the Jem Space set, which is now upgradeable. Which means you have to use the Jem Deflector, Engines and Shields but with them you get two passives and an activatable power.
You lose a Sci Console slot and gain a 5th Tac Slot and a 4th Engineering slot for compensation.
It's the equivelant of having the best loadout combination of all three Vesta or Oddysey ships rolled into one and the console bonuses to boot.
The problem is if you don't use the Jem'Hadar Space set, the potential to max out the best of all possible worlds is apparent.
... and now on all other jem-ships and the galor (the "oneway to cardi-weaps" ship ^^...) from the start... not really a point . also there are other sets with 2 set-3 bonuses, like borg or ferengi... just equip adapted maco and u got a torp console extra (set-2 bonus?)......
The Multipurpose and Tachyon mine console are not exclusive to the D'Kora. The swarm missiles are a joke with a 2min CD and the EMP Burst ability requires very specific positioning and isn't particularly effective anyway. All the Battle Modue 3000 console does is marginally increase weapons and engines power, which on a cruiser doesn't amount to much. The set bonuses aren't even combat-related.
Don't get me wrong, the marauder is a good ship. Probably one of the best Battle Cruisers there is but it doesn't have a significant impact on PvP since Battle Cruisers are irrelevant.
The Multipurpose and Tachyon mine console are not exclusive to the D'Kora.
...but the no.2 set-3 bonus is or am i wrong on that? ^^... also jem-set can be equipped on any ship of right tier... it's only the vic-is-life thingie that's only available on stated ships (and can be "emulated" on any ship with a doff), or am i wrong again?
The swarm missiles are a joke with a 2min CD and the EMP Burst ability requires very specific positioning and isn't particularly effective anyway. All the Battle Modue 3000 console does is marginally increase weapons and engines power, which on a cruiser doesn't amount to much. The set bonuses aren't even combat-related.
Don't get me wrong, the marauder is a good ship. Probably one of the best Battle Cruisers there is but it doesn't have a significant impact on PvP since Battle Cruisers are irrelevant.
you got concerns on that set, make a thread ... indeed it is a special set which gives at least one special bonus to a dedicated ship. just like time set, vesta set... those two f.e. can only be used on dedicated ships, or am i so totally wrong?
i don't want to offense, but indeed there are other sets that are just at the same level as jem set from point of bonus-countings... nothing about quality of those (from this point of view borg is best, cause it grants it's 2 set-3 bonusses to any ship you equip it on and you even can make it a 4 piece set with cutting beam. only 2 other omega-set-thingies needed and you get something like a "6-piece-7/8?-bonusses-set-hybrid-monster" on any ship).
regarding ships/sets i guess, both been held on "different"-sheets and should be merged/stated as well, as already happened regarding rom-rep sets.
i don't want to troll or such, but i can recall many, me as well, didn't like the answer ...
edit: in my opinion d'koras are not obsolete. some keep on kicking my "lower-back" or tank like from hell. but there's also agreat diversitiy in shipdesigns you can turn into something very similar to a heavy (!) escort (one of the best mobius f.e.)...
to conclude: i like the sets, i like my bug, but i LUUUUUV my mirror-bop. even if it gets kicked it's damn sexy
It needs something to compensate for the lack of a special console or ability. Any further needs would be discussed and tested on tribble.
The Patrol Escort, Escort Retrofit, and Aquarius Destroyer don't have any unique consoles or abilities either. The only advantage any of those ships has over the JHAS is a second science console, and two of the three start with far weaker shields (.72 modifier) so they need that science slot to have even adequate protection. Other than that, none of those ships has any advantage over the JHAS.
Even if you dropped the JHAS' ridiculous turn rate to 17, it's easily better than any of the ships which don't have a special console.
The only fed escorts which have a special console are the Defiant, and the MVAE.
Compared to the JHAS, the Defiant has slightly less hull and shields, and one fewer engineering console but one more science console, which would add up to it being a slightly weaker ship. In the Defiant's favor, it can cloak (if it gives up a console slot). But the Defiant has by far the worst BOff arrangement on an escort -- bad enough that many players will choose a Patrol Escort over it.
If you imagine there is no JHAS for a second, many players are willing to give up the Defiant's cloak to avoid it's bad BOff setup (not to mention the players who already run Defiants without the cloak to avoid losing that console slot). The JHAS, even at 17 turn rate, would be a better ship than either a Patrol Escort or a Defiant, so it would be an even better alternative to a Defiant with a cloak. So the JHAS is already compensated for not having a cloak available.
The Patrol Escort, Escort Retrofit, and Aquarius Destroyer don't have any unique consoles or abilities either. The only advantage any of those ships has over the JHAS is a second science console, and two of the three start with far weaker shields (.72 modifier) so they need that science slot to have even adequate protection. Other than that, none of those ships has any advantage over the JHAS.
Even if you dropped the JHAS' ridiculous turn rate to 17, it's easily better than any of the ships which don't have a special console.
The only fed escorts which have a special console are the Defiant, and the MVAE.
Compared to the JHAS, the Defiant has slightly less hull and shields, and one fewer engineering console but one more science console, which would add up to it being a slightly weaker ship. In the Defiant's favor, it can cloak (if it gives up a console slot). But the Defiant has by far the worst BOff arrangement on an escort -- bad enough that many players will choose a Patrol Escort over it.
If you imagine there is no JHAS for a second, many players are willing to give up the Defiant's cloak to avoid it's bad BOff setup (not to mention the players who already run Defiants without the cloak to avoid losing that console slot). The JHAS, even at 17 turn rate, would be a better ship than either a Patrol Escort or a Defiant, so it would be an even better alternative to a Defiant with a cloak. So the JHAS is already compensated for not having a cloak available.
Exactly why it is in need of a nerf.
The Average PvP player
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
you still dont get it do you... the bug is op. look at the comments before you, come up with a valid argument to explain to me without calling me or anyone a noob or nooblet or any variation of noob and THEN come back and respond. and I said of EQUAL skill, obviously bug captains of great skill, or any great captain knows their strength and weaknesses and prepared for that before hand.
I have both the JHAS and the fleet tactical escort retrofit, I use the first on a klingon toon and the second on a fed one... both characters have the same traits and very similar skill.
the better turn rate of the JHAS helps in 1 vs 1 scenario; a many vs many scenario is very different and the JHAS pay its worse shield.
I think that isn't the bug ship too strong, but the fed ship disadvantaged by it's boffs layout... In pvp the best build for an escort is IMHO only cannons based (no torpedoes) for a greater alpha strike, so 3 tactical station (like in the fed ship) are a waste...
The best BOFFs layout is the one with a cmd tactical station, lt cmd tactical station, a lt sci station, a lt eng station and a sci or eng ensign station. This layout let you have 2 TT, 2 CRF, 2xAPO and 1 APB or APD, plus sci and eng abilities to buff/heal shield and regenerate the hull. in pvp you do not need others tactical abilities... this is why the 3 tactical station of the tactical escort restrofit are (IMHO) a waste.
On more thought: in pvp weapons, consoles and doffs are very very important... there is one reason why my JHAS is more dangerous than my FTER and that reason is the 4x
DHCs [acc]x3, 3xturrets [acc]x3, purple consoles... everything is MK XII and yes, I payed a lot, lot, lot of EC to buy the JHAS, weapos, consoles and doffs. The fed toon has good consoles and weapons, but not so good.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
On more thought: in pvp weapons, consoles and doffs are very very important... there is one reason why my JHAS is more dangerous than my FTER and that reason is the 4x
DHCs [acc]x3, 3xturrets [acc]x3, purple consoles... everything is MK XII and yes, I payed a lot, lot, lot of EC to buy the JHAS, weapos, consoles and doffs. The fed toon has good consoles and weapons, but not so good.
yes the weps do matter but no so much the purple consoles. doffs do help. the problem is the bug ship has an rsp. the defaint has epts 1 2. the jem has better sheilds and turn rate the defiant has less on all accounts. if the jem loses its sheilds can rsp, if that fails can tss 2 if that fails there is 3 sdo. less see defaint sheilds break tss2, that fails 3 sdo, that fails well hello respwn timer.
if the defiant was able to use cloak under combat that would actually help it alot more. then you would actually get to use better spike damage, not wast a console slot and actually slot the cloak console. i care less that jem has 4 engy consoles. most go 2 neut consoles , other morons go 4. i fly my bug with no armor consoles. my engy lay out most times is 2 mk12 purple rcs ,tact converter borg console. sci is sheild emiter, tact is 4 tact phaser consoles and zero point. if i tryed that layout in my defiant it would be pure death.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
I have both the JHAS and the fleet tactical escort retrofit, I use the first on a klingon toon and the second on a fed one... both characters have the same traits and very similar skill.
the better turn rate of the JHAS helps in 1 vs 1 scenario; a many vs many scenario is very different and the JHAS pay its worse shield.
I think that isn't the bug ship too strong, but the fed ship disadvantaged by it's boffs layout... In pvp the best build for an escort is IMHO only cannons based (no torpedoes) for a greater alpha strike, so 3 tactical station (like in the fed ship) are a waste...
The best BOFFs layout is the one with a cmd tactical station, lt cmd tactical station, a lt sci station, a lt eng station and a sci or eng ensign station. This layout let you have 2 TT, 2 CRF, 2xAPO and 1 APB or APD, plus sci and eng abilities to buff/heal shield and regenerate the hull. in pvp you do not need others tactical abilities... this is why the 3 tactical station of the tactical escort restrofit are (IMHO) a waste.
On more thought: in pvp weapons, consoles and doffs are very very important... there is one reason why my JHAS is more dangerous than my FTER and that reason is the 4x
DHCs [acc]x3, 3xturrets [acc]x3, purple consoles... everything is MK XII and yes, I payed a lot, lot, lot of EC to buy the JHAS, weapos, consoles and doffs. The fed toon has good consoles and weapons, but not so good.
Sir you are giving reasons WHY the Bug is an overpowered ship instead, of arguing otherwise...
The Average PvP player
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
You know the main issues is it's impressive turn rate, and its boff layout. If the other escorts had universal ensign then I could run the defiant as patrol escort layout and do more damage in it than I can in the bug. (cloaking damage bonus) Same give the option to fleet advance escort to have a universal ensign and it will have better livability to match the bug. The turn rate could be lowered by 1 point and not be over-nerfing it in my opinion.
A fleet defiant can rip through shields as fast as a bug can. Crf3 and usually boom, unless its a good premade team that has capable healers.
I can't wait until we get a fleet guramba with 5 tac slots 2 sci slots, 3 engineer slots. That ship would be unstoppable haha!
The defiant is fine as it is... people asking for it to have a patrol escort setup are missing the point... if you want to fly a patrol escort fly a damn patrol escort.
The defiant is fine with the setup it has... you people need to think outside the box a bit more.
I PREFER my defiant setup over the patrol setup for many builds. If you want to fly an escort that still bursts and uses torps the defiant is the winner hands down.... Use doffs and keep ONE COPY of EPTS 2 up 100% of the time... and back it up with a 100% up EPTE 1... and you will be moving in that little guy... throw in some Omega goodness and it keeps up turn wise with most bugs... as not that many people put RCSs in there already good turning bugs.
Defiant is fine....
Patrol is fine...
Mostly the bug is fine as it is as well... it could loose 1-2 points of turn and I don't think anyone would have call to cry about it.
I want to fly the iconic ship. Even the damn Captain level refit has the Ens ENG, Lt ENG setup. So there's no reason why the VA level Defiant can't have that setup.
The defiant is fine as it is... people asking for it to have a patrol escort setup are missing the point... if you want to fly a patrol escort fly a damn patrol escort.
The defiant is fine with the setup it has... you people need to think outside the box a bit more.
I PREFER my defiant setup over the patrol setup for many builds. If you want to fly an escort that still bursts and uses torps the defiant is the winner hands down.... Use doffs and keep ONE COPY of EPTS 2 up 100% of the time... and back it up with a 100% up EPTE 1... and you will be moving in that little guy... throw in some Omega goodness and it keeps up turn wise with most bugs... as not that many people put RCSs in there already good turning bugs.
Defiant is fine....
Patrol is fine...
Mostly the bug is fine as it is as well... it could loose 1-2 points of turn and I don't think anyone would have call to cry about it.
while i go agree with alot of what you do say, i tend to go against you on this. i can see why you say the defiant lay out is fine. but thoes days of doing 1 shot skills on a decloak with torps on crusiers are over. the basic setup of premades is 3 sci 2 tacts. to have a tact in cloak waiting for that kill will not happen. your hurting your team doing that. try that against turks, nova core, tsi or even sob will get your team killed. next is crazy talk if i ever heard it, doffs to reduce cd on eptx skills? first off it does reduce cd but not always. thats just asking to be killed. no sdo doffs? really? most basic doff lay out is 2 apd and atleast 2 sdo. i do know alot of people run 3. i dont i run 2. im still hoping that lazy nurse will start doing her job. btw alot of people run atleast 2 mk12 purple rcs consoles. the bug should have a base turn of 18, NOT 20.
for anyone to say i qq about the bug ship, maybe i do. but guess what i own it. why do i qq if i own it? because i want to play in my defiant. but to remain competitive in pvp i need to be in my stupid bug.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
Comments
1. Against other Bugships-full stop.
2. When the pilot's clearly flying something he bought in his first ever PvP experience-as in mistakes Raptor or FedScort jockeys don't tend to make, even when they ARE new-i.e. incredibly, mind-blowingly, elementary mistakes-like burning all your defensive buffs into cooldown in the middle of a hostile FedBall with Trics set to go off nearby, then STOPPING like you're hammering Probes on KASE.
The reason why some bugships stop dead in the middle of a fed ball is becuse they usually have been hit by SNB,VM Target engins and some console goodness all at once. so what do most ppl do when the are immobilized looking at a set of trics moving toward them knowing there is a good chance that evey mine that hits them will crit. im guessing they are going to hit most buffs to try and get the F@%K away.
...dunno how much jem deflector's are on my wall, but more than just a few i would guess... all "collected" with several ships
if you were right i have to ask why, when i'm in my own bug, i'm not immortal and seem to die more often than f.e. in my steamrunner?
you know what? my performance always depends on the actual match! who's in my team, who's on the other, how the teams work together, outbalances/outclasses each other and within themselves. how about my playstyle, how about every others'..
those are the variables for my own success when i pvp in my bug or any other ship (believe me: even in my bug i already got beaten to the hell some of you want the bug to burn in... and not only from other bugs
Id have to agree with this bottom part, that would suck if all ships were same/equal ect ect....i like the differences and how you have to plan differently when fighting each one. I fly a bug myself, i have dishes out butt whoopins and taken plenty as well, a friend of mine in our fleet has a vesta and tears me up most of the time, also a guy in another fleet i 1vs1 with often and he usually wins and flies the multi-vector and has lesser gear than me, hes just a better pilot hands down. No special console,,,1 sci slot, that is bugs downside,,higher turn rate, 5 tac slots = upside, its not OP
this right here.
lastnight i went 5-2 in the arena using my bug,,,the 2 losses were massive butt whoopins i think i got 1 kill in those 2 matches, nobody on the team spoke a word, nobody called targets, nobody healed each other (except me which is sad im healing peeps in a bug but they wont heal in a sci/eng ship) the 5 matches my team won, we stuck together and called targets and we pwned. Teamwork is bigger in team pvp then individual ship stats!! I dont care if your the best pvper on STO if your on a TRIBBLE team that doesnt communicate against an average to good team that does your going to get stomped everytime.
Yes the 1 sci slot is a downside... that is it though.
There is a reason that every experienced Escort pilot that played prior to the bug... all made SURE to get one. Even if they had to drop 400-500 mil EC to do it. Its not worth 400-500m because its only good... or even a bit better. People don't want to admit it but the more I think on it the more I have to say ya its OP. I know its not around anymore so 400-500k seems right... but lets be honest even when it was dropping like mad out of doff packs it never really dipped under 200 mil for more then a few hours perhaps at most.
Every good escort pilot switched to it even if they had to pull 24h stints fixing the exchange to do it. Lots of terrible escort pilots swapped to it as well... which is why it likely doesn't seem all that op to some people. Of course if you know what your doing you can make any ship work.... but the fact that so many people that do KNOW how the game works sold there kidneys for it if they had to says it all.
Don't nerf the JHAS, just buff the other Escort options.
would be fine with that.... some other shiptypes also could use some uni-slots f.e. btw... many ships out there outclassed by newer models (galaxy in every variant except fleet-r maybe is prime example i guess)
atrox/recluse is another example. and one that nicely shows the difference between lockbox and z-store/"vanilla"- ships that could use some love
1 - Yes, is right, defiant have 17 and jemmy have 20. But defiant have the cloacking ability, jem'hadar have no speciall ability. Maybe 18-19 is a good turn rate value for balance, 1 point of BASE TURN rate is a huge diference for and escort [/QUOTE]
cloaking will work once, maybe on a respwn you can use it again.[/QUOTE]
2 - Irrelevant, we all know that escorts survialbly depends 100% on shield tanking and speed, a litle more of hull is totaly irrelevant, that won't make u "OP".[/QUOTE] well the jem does have 2 copies of epts 1 with an rsp as well as he 1 and tss2[/QUOTE]
3 - Yes but other escort can (and should) stack 2 o 3 Field generator consoles, in the end the jem'hadar is the escort with less shield in the game.[/QUOTE] i dont know where you got this info. i never ran a feild gen on my escourts.[/QUOTE]
4 - So? There are plenty of ships in this game with 1 or 2 Universal boffs, and 99% of the jemhadar captians use the same layout as the fleet patrol escort. I see no problem here.[/QUOTE] again it comes down to turn rate with healing as well as an rsp. my jem ship has 59.3 turn rate, and thats not counting on a boost from maco sheilds. or even when i use omega.[/QUOTE]
5 - Defiant have 5 too (plus can use the cloack for an deadly alpha strike), and i don't see anybody crying about that.[/QUOTE] again that cloak is used once and then you have a wasted console slot.[/QUOTE]
And what about the wells? is better than any other sci ship in the game and i don't see the QQ Army talking about it. [/QUOTE] wells is not an escourt, besides recluse is much better but thats another topic.
[/QUOTE]
There are more important issues with pvp balance, so please stop the flood in the balance topics so we can keep them clean as posible[/QUOTE] hey man i think you need to learn the game we call pvp. put a pure noob in a defaint, watch him die is about 3 secs. put an even biger noob in the jem and he will die in about 10. have to account for his rsp.
1. It would still be in a three-way tie for having the best manueverability.
2. It would have the strongest hull (+400 vs the Patrol, +1400 vs the Tactical, and +4140 vs the Escort Retrofit).
3. It would have the strongest shields with a modifier of 1 (vs .99 for the Patrol, .9 for the Tactical, and .77 for the Escort Retrofit)
4. It would have the best BOff setup, though since it's most common setups would be the same as either the Patrol Escort or Escort Retrofit, it's only a slight edge in flexibility over those two. It's unquestionably better than the Tactical Escort though.
5. It would be tied with the Patrol and Escort Retrofit for 4 Engineering consoles, better than the 3 on the Tactical.
6. It would have the worst number of science consoles at one instead of 2 for the others one of two areas where it is not the best or tied for first place.
7. It would be tied with the Tactical Escort for having the best tactical consoles.
8. Since the Tactical Escort is the only one for which a unique universal console exists, that is an advantage for it, and the only other way in which the JHAS would not still be the best or tied for first place. The Escort Retrofit has it's own universal console, but it's usable on any escort, and none of the fleet versions come with the consoles -- in all cases a lower level ship needs to be purchased in addition to the fleet one.
The JHAS would still be the "best" escort in almost every respect.
I didn't include the MVAE in the comparison, because it's a fundamentally different ship than the others. The Fleet Tactical Escort, Patrol Escort, and Escort Retrofit are all comparable, but with it's emphasis on science the MVAE is really a different thing entirely.
In it's basic mode, the MVAE is still inferior to the JHAS in almost every respect, but it would have the potential to beat the JHAS in turning in it's other modes if the JHAS were dropped down to 17 turn rate. Then the question would be whether the penalties the MVAE pays in it's other modes are enough to offset it's turn rate.
I understand the points you and others have made, but I can't help but wonder why people would think the above isn't WAI by the dev team?
Why do we continually see threads on the JHAS, but not for ships like the Wells and Recluse that are clearly at the top of their ship class as well?
Turn Rate is by far the most important attribute for an escort, and the current JHAS effectively gets a free RCS console as compared to other escorts in addition to it's other advantages.
The Wells does have the potential to carry a lot more science BOffs, and only has to give up the tactical LT which other sci ships have to do it, but there are a lot of shared cooldowns with science powers, and they are buffed by a lot of different consoles, so the Wells still needs to specialize like other science ships.
Basically, it's better, but not so much better that no other science ship can ever match it.
The problem with the JHAS is that even if you dropped it's turn rate to 17, it's still a better ship in almost every way. But because it's turn rate is so high, other escorts can't even compete.
An escort's role on a team is to be the killer. If one escort can easily keep another in it's 45? arc, while at the same time easily staying out of an opposing escort's own 45? arc, that ship gives it's team a major advantage.
Science ships have a control role, and there just isn't as much disparity there. Nothing a Wells has stops it from being controlled the way that a JHAS' maneuverability can stop it from getting cannons lined up on it.
I've ended up in 1-1's with Wellses (I know 1-1 isn't everything) and beat them in an LRSV, and in a Vesta. Not even the fleet versions. It really just came down to me getting my powers off first. I'm not going to beat a bug if I'm in a Patrol or Tactical Escort though. I can get their hull to about half sometimes, but their going to have about twice as much time on target against me as I will against them just due to the turn rate.
I don't know, maybe the Wells is a little over the top too. It's just not so far over the top as the JHAS is.
Off topic ,,does anybody know that key bind you type in so you can just click enemy ship then type the letter T in team chat to call the target? The ones ive been told dont seem to work.
If that means buffing some stats and or additional console slots, then so be it.
Especially when there are a number of high-end C-store ships that have already been outdated by newer ones. Even the Fleet versions don't really hold a competative edge.
I suppose when they raise the Rank/Skill Cap and add the Romulan faction, they may introduce tougher ships or the ability to modify current ships but until then, the JHAS has been like bringing a gun to a knife fight.
The worst arguement for the JHAS is "well, if it's so OP then grind the EC and get yourself one and stop complaining."
You said you don't think anyone wants it nerfed... What is this thread for then?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
It needs something to compensate for the lack of a special console or ability. Any further needs would be discussed and tested on tribble.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
To bring this situation to the Devs' attention?
About a possible nerf
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
Now that I think about it, the JHAS does get a special console ability; "Victory Is Life". Only, it requires the Jem Space set, which is now upgradeable. Which means you have to use the Jem Deflector, Engines and Shields but with them you get two passives and an activatable power.
You lose a Sci Console slot and gain a 5th Tac Slot and a 4th Engineering slot for compensation.
It's the equivelant of having the best loadout combination of all three Vesta or Oddysey ships rolled into one and the console bonuses to boot.
The problem is if you don't use the Jem'Hadar Space set, the potential to max out the best of all possible worlds is apparent.
also i do not agree with you in some points i have to state that you really seem to deserve that avatar
one of the points i agree with is: so many seem to be upset about the setup (hehe) of the bug.
to prove or not to prove this in the end can only be provided by a closer look from dev's.
so *bump* and all relax a bit in your chairs :rolleyes:
... and now on all other jem-ships and the galor (the "oneway to cardi-weaps" ship ^^...) from the start... not really a point
Don't get me wrong, the marauder is a good ship. Probably one of the best Battle Cruisers there is but it doesn't have a significant impact on PvP since Battle Cruisers are irrelevant.
you got concerns on that set, make a thread
i don't want to offense, but indeed there are other sets that are just at the same level as jem set from point of bonus-countings... nothing about quality of those (from this point of view borg is best, cause it grants it's 2 set-3 bonusses to any ship you equip it on and you even can make it a 4 piece set with cutting beam. only 2 other omega-set-thingies needed and you get something like a "6-piece-7/8?-bonusses-set-hybrid-monster" on any ship).
regarding ships/sets i guess, both been held on "different"-sheets and should be merged/stated as well, as already happened regarding rom-rep sets.
i don't want to troll or such, but i can recall many, me as well, didn't like the answer
edit: in my opinion d'koras are not obsolete. some keep on kicking my "lower-back" or tank like from hell. but there's also agreat diversitiy in shipdesigns you can turn into something very similar to a heavy (!) escort (one of the best mobius f.e.)...
to conclude: i like the sets, i like my bug, but i LUUUUUV my mirror-bop. even if it gets kicked it's damn sexy
Even if you dropped the JHAS' ridiculous turn rate to 17, it's easily better than any of the ships which don't have a special console.
The only fed escorts which have a special console are the Defiant, and the MVAE.
Compared to the JHAS, the Defiant has slightly less hull and shields, and one fewer engineering console but one more science console, which would add up to it being a slightly weaker ship. In the Defiant's favor, it can cloak (if it gives up a console slot). But the Defiant has by far the worst BOff arrangement on an escort -- bad enough that many players will choose a Patrol Escort over it.
If you imagine there is no JHAS for a second, many players are willing to give up the Defiant's cloak to avoid it's bad BOff setup (not to mention the players who already run Defiants without the cloak to avoid losing that console slot). The JHAS, even at 17 turn rate, would be a better ship than either a Patrol Escort or a Defiant, so it would be an even better alternative to a Defiant with a cloak. So the JHAS is already compensated for not having a cloak available.
Exactly why it is in need of a nerf.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
I have both the JHAS and the fleet tactical escort retrofit, I use the first on a klingon toon and the second on a fed one... both characters have the same traits and very similar skill.
the better turn rate of the JHAS helps in 1 vs 1 scenario; a many vs many scenario is very different and the JHAS pay its worse shield.
I think that isn't the bug ship too strong, but the fed ship disadvantaged by it's boffs layout... In pvp the best build for an escort is IMHO only cannons based (no torpedoes) for a greater alpha strike, so 3 tactical station (like in the fed ship) are a waste...
The best BOFFs layout is the one with a cmd tactical station, lt cmd tactical station, a lt sci station, a lt eng station and a sci or eng ensign station. This layout let you have 2 TT, 2 CRF, 2xAPO and 1 APB or APD, plus sci and eng abilities to buff/heal shield and regenerate the hull. in pvp you do not need others tactical abilities... this is why the 3 tactical station of the tactical escort restrofit are (IMHO) a waste.
On more thought: in pvp weapons, consoles and doffs are very very important... there is one reason why my JHAS is more dangerous than my FTER and that reason is the 4x
DHCs [acc]x3, 3xturrets [acc]x3, purple consoles... everything is MK XII and yes, I payed a lot, lot, lot of EC to buy the JHAS, weapos, consoles and doffs. The fed toon has good consoles and weapons, but not so good.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
yes the weps do matter but no so much the purple consoles. doffs do help. the problem is the bug ship has an rsp. the defaint has epts 1 2. the jem has better sheilds and turn rate the defiant has less on all accounts. if the jem loses its sheilds can rsp, if that fails can tss 2 if that fails there is 3 sdo. less see defaint sheilds break tss2, that fails 3 sdo, that fails well hello respwn timer.
if the defiant was able to use cloak under combat that would actually help it alot more. then you would actually get to use better spike damage, not wast a console slot and actually slot the cloak console. i care less that jem has 4 engy consoles. most go 2 neut consoles , other morons go 4. i fly my bug with no armor consoles. my engy lay out most times is 2 mk12 purple rcs ,tact converter borg console. sci is sheild emiter, tact is 4 tact phaser consoles and zero point. if i tryed that layout in my defiant it would be pure death.
Sir you are giving reasons WHY the Bug is an overpowered ship instead, of arguing otherwise...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
A fleet defiant can rip through shields as fast as a bug can. Crf3 and usually boom, unless its a good premade team that has capable healers.
I can't wait until we get a fleet guramba with 5 tac slots 2 sci slots, 3 engineer slots. That ship would be unstoppable haha!
The defiant is fine with the setup it has... you people need to think outside the box a bit more.
I PREFER my defiant setup over the patrol setup for many builds. If you want to fly an escort that still bursts and uses torps the defiant is the winner hands down.... Use doffs and keep ONE COPY of EPTS 2 up 100% of the time... and back it up with a 100% up EPTE 1... and you will be moving in that little guy... throw in some Omega goodness and it keeps up turn wise with most bugs... as not that many people put RCSs in there already good turning bugs.
Defiant is fine....
Patrol is fine...
Mostly the bug is fine as it is as well... it could loose 1-2 points of turn and I don't think anyone would have call to cry about it.
I want to fly the iconic ship. Even the damn Captain level refit has the Ens ENG, Lt ENG setup. So there's no reason why the VA level Defiant can't have that setup.
while i go agree with alot of what you do say, i tend to go against you on this. i can see why you say the defiant lay out is fine. but thoes days of doing 1 shot skills on a decloak with torps on crusiers are over. the basic setup of premades is 3 sci 2 tacts. to have a tact in cloak waiting for that kill will not happen. your hurting your team doing that. try that against turks, nova core, tsi or even sob will get your team killed. next is crazy talk if i ever heard it, doffs to reduce cd on eptx skills? first off it does reduce cd but not always. thats just asking to be killed. no sdo doffs? really? most basic doff lay out is 2 apd and atleast 2 sdo. i do know alot of people run 3. i dont i run 2. im still hoping that lazy nurse will start doing her job. btw alot of people run atleast 2 mk12 purple rcs consoles. the bug should have a base turn of 18, NOT 20.
for anyone to say i qq about the bug ship, maybe i do. but guess what i own it. why do i qq if i own it? because i want to play in my defiant. but to remain competitive in pvp i need to be in my stupid bug.