This is one reason why I never bother upgrading some of these sets to XI or XII because there is no justification in the stats for the requirements imposed on the person trying to get them. If Cryptic wants people to go after them they need to quit doing this massive nerf or low statting to begin with and then trying to make boat loads of money off of no improvement or very little.
This first happened with the orion ship we had interceptors built into the orion marauder and then they took those away from that ship making ppl who paid for it have to pay something else just to reobtain what they already have. Then they said well you can get slavers for free instead which then they turned around and put d-store ones up that they said would be more beneficial to buy but yet I can only get like maybe 2 contraband a month out of them. Yea I'm not an advocate of this give you one thing and then make you re-grind it to get it again or like this jem hadar set that costs tons of lobi but yet no boost for that.
He is not advocating anything. This isn't a free game set, it cost us cash and we expect something comperable to the investment.
Once we get it, what do we see?
That what we thought was going to make a sizable difference is really nothing special.
That there was no substanial visual upgrade for social status.
That would rather have the Lobi back and they can keep the existing MK XI sets we lost. We will just grind another set and call it fair enough.
That we were taken advantage of.
We can see that they went through a lot of trouble designing these sets so they stay under Aegis, MACO, and Omega. What I don't understand is why. This set didn't come grinding, this set didn't come from mission running, the crafting system, or a reputation system. It came from our wallets with direct purchase for as many keys as it took me to get to 200 Lobi.
I really expected more, but the saddest part is that I don't know why...
I really expected more, but the saddest part is that I don't know why...
Let's make it clear then. If the devs bring pay to win to the game, it will be even easier. The game is incredibly easy. More OP sets would mean that they need to make PvE tougher, which would require a lot of work and improved free gear anyway, or it would mean leaving it as it is and see people quitting the game just because they have no challenge to overcome, nothing else/better they can get by playing the game.
What happens when you put the best gear in stores? People buy it, they enjoy it for a month maybe and then see that they have nothing to do, that the free stuff will remain inferior, that endgame content is boring thanks to "i win button" and slowly quit playing. This isn't a good strategy IMO.
Asking for better stats isn't reasonable because Cryptic can do this but it means killing the game or making tremendous efforts for a very small revenue. Balancing a game around new gear and new ships won't take a week or so...
Insead the price could be lowered on such sets in the future if people don't buy it and explain why on the forums. Of course if it's just nerdrage and whines don't expect anything but if you start thinking that if it's not worth it you won't buy it then it's ok and the store will be improved (at least if enough people don't buy the stuff).
That's what happened with keys yesterday, people said politely and with many arguments that the tactical carrier was a pure TRIBBLE on the forums, and ta-dah, a key sale happened a day after.
Everything in the game can be purchased by converting Zen to Dil.
To get the Jem Upgrade you would need around 150 lobi crystals. Let's say 5 per box, so that's 30 boxes = 30 keys, at the normal price that's 3375 Zen or at an exchange rate of 90:1 that's 303750 Dil. The level cap is 8K dil per day which means with one toon it will take you 40 days of grinding just to get that set.
So however you look at it, whether you pay for it with cash or by grinding for nearly 6 weeks, you are working hard at it, very hard, it requires far more Dilithium than the Reputation acquired MACO sets for example and yet after all that we get a space set that blatently sucks in every area. It is not as good as any of the reputation sets which cost far less to grind. The only advantage is that as you are opening all those boxes with all those keys you will get other items, hell you may even roll a ship or two, but there's a chance all you'll get are lobi and minidoff packs.
So I expect it to perform, and perform very very well for the cost.
It was wasn't it
In the end though, you got what you paid for, a Mk12 version of those sets. had the tool tip said "this is the best set in the game, much better than any other set" then you would have a case.
Just because it cost lobi, and therefore real money (if you were silly enough to do that) it is still not a reason to make it an uber set.
From what I hear, the ground set Armour has better resists than the Mk12 Omega set.
Same goes for the federation space suit, it costs 700zen per character, but is not much different than the ones easily got ingame.
I don't think people expected the best set in the game, but if you're going to pay a lot of money for a set, you kind of expect it to do what it says on the tin -- parity with the other endgame sets.
Personally, while I will never bother spending this money/time to get the upgrade, I wish it was on par with the other sets, simply for variety. More choices and more paths to them = good.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
They created this lobi store to add value to the lockboxes wouldn't feel cheated, and then put in the ultimate cheat by creating sets with marginal increases that mean nothing in actual play for 150 lobi?
This is a buyer beware item, and a ripoff that has clear intent dupe the unwary.
Way to go Cryptic! Get everyone's hopes and dreams up to only have it all come crashing down. The Jem set is a joke. You only need 2 pieces if you use polaron. The shields are as good as ground shields. They have a cool skin look to them but that is it. At least boost them up more to what they should be. The Jem shield doesn't even begin to compare to the mkxi omega at mkxii. So much for taking my money! Also some of you forget that f2p is really p2w. Without yours, mine and that dude's cash sto wouldn't be around anymore. If you want us to spend some zen then make it worth our wild.
Let's make it clear then. If the devs bring pay to win to the game, it will be even easier. The game is incredibly easy. More OP sets would mean that they need to make PvE tougher, which would require a lot of work and improved free gear anyway, or it would mean leaving it as it is and see people quitting the game just because they have no challenge to overcome, nothing else/better they can get by playing the game.
What happens when you put the best gear in stores? People buy it, they enjoy it for a month maybe and then see that they have nothing to do, that the free stuff will remain inferior, that endgame content is boring thanks to "i win button" and slowly quit playing. This isn't a good strategy IMO.
Asking for better stats isn't reasonable because Cryptic can do this but it means killing the game or making tremendous efforts for a very small revenue. Balancing a game around new gear and new ships won't take a week or so...
Insead the price could be lowered on such sets in the future if people don't buy it and explain why on the forums. Of course if it's just nerdrage and whines don't expect anything but if you start thinking that if it's not worth it you won't buy it then it's ok and the store will be improved (at least if enough people don't buy the stuff).
That's what happened with keys yesterday, people said politely and with many arguments that the tactical carrier was a pure TRIBBLE on the forums, and ta-dah, a key sale happened a day after.
I didn't say pay to win anywhere in my post. I think you inferred that. So let me state it again with more clarity.
What I said is that this set is subpar to Aegis, MACO, and Omega in which two of these come in MK XII configuration. Closer inspection will reveal that I also said the Devs put effort to make it subpar. Each increase is a strict precentage, but not standard across the board.
What you can safely infer, without risk, is that I am saying the JH MK XII set should be on par with those other MK XII sets, not better. What would have been the point of everybody stopping what they were doing, purchasing keys to give money to Cryptic, to get this set as a MK XII if it wasn't? Honestly, who wants to pay for mediocrity? Excluding Cryptic who obvisouly expects it.
Lastly, I state that I am not sure why I thought the Devs would try to make this set on par with other MK XII kits, when I knew better.
What we have now is the MK XI kit we should have had originally that is almost on par with the Aegis, but it labeled MK XII, for some unexplainable reason.
Could it be they are leaving room to add a dominion reputation and subsequent ground and space gear sets? I would assume that rep gear would trump lobi gear after all the resources that would be required to level a rep. Just a thought.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
Could it be they are leaving room to add a dominion reputation and subsequent ground and space gear sets? I would assume that rep gear would trump lobi gear after all the resources that would be required to level a rep. Just a thought.
More like they are leaving room for a 400 lobi upgrade to the "improved" MKXII... THAT WILL BE SOOO AWESOME FOR THE HIGH END CONTENT. lulz.
Figured I'd pop in and shed some light on the subject... The feedback we've gotten on these new features has been helpful (despite the hostility of some of it), and we've taken some time to improve the features a bit.
Before I detail the improvements we'll be making, I'd like to remind players that we still intend for STF/Omega and Starbase/Embassy gear to be superior in scope to items that can be obtained from Missions and/or Lobi Store. It's possible that our original blog was worded in a way that could easily be misinterpreted to mean otherwise, but it was not our intent to imply that the Jem'Hadar Mk XII upgrades would end up having similar stats/bonuses/procs to Omega & Fleet gear. Our intent was, instead, simply to allow this gear to remain somewhat competitive in our more difficult end-game content. It's an upgrade, not a fundamental re-design.
With that in mind, here's a list of some of the changes to the Jem'Hadar Space Set that've been made internally, and should appear with next week's update:
- Lobi Price on Space Set upgrade reduced from 200 to 150, to match with other Set Upgrade item prices.
- Space Shield has received more Capacity and Regen rate.
- Space Deflector's Stealth-related bonuses have been doubled.
- Space Engine's Weapon Power bonus has been doubled (just the static buff, not the Efficient part)
- Dominion Synergy (2pc Bonus) has had its bonuses increased by 50%.
- Antiproton Sweep will now disable Cloaks for longer (12sec, vs 10sec), drain more Shields per use (approx 20% increase), and recharges faster (90sec vs 120sec).
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
I would find this acceptable Bort, thanks. But one question, any way for us who have already paid the 200 price to recoup 50 crystals? I think I know the answer already and will not be ragequitting over it. Thanks for the explanation and the tweaks.
Before I detail the improvements we'll be making, I'd like to remind players that we still intend for STF/Omega and Starbase/Embassy gear to be superior in scope to items that can be obtained from Missions and/or Lobi Store. It's possible that our original blog was worded in a way that could easily be misinterpreted to mean otherwise,
For myself at least, I was looking at the Crystal-Woven ground gear > Lobi upgrade and thinking that's what might end up happening.
I understand that you don't want to make this set superior to the Rep/Fleet gear, but even at the new price of 150 lobi - a smart player is going to see that as 150 lobi / 4 lobi per box = WCS Cost of $37.50.
Which is more than any single, T5 ship in the store and approaches the price of the ship bundles. (It could cost less, you might get "lucky").
Anyway, those changes look reasonable for people that might be attracted to buying it.
While I love purple, 150 lobi is still quite a lot for something that doesn't compete with the gear I do have.
I think I will weigh in on this one. When I read the blogs that there would be an upgrade to the Jemmie set I was ecstatic. I really enjoy the set, the visuals and the history (big DS9 fan here) and it's also what I am currently using on my fleet saber. Firstly I will make mention that I was rather disappointed that the Dominion Polaron's are not seeing an upgrade to mk12 purple, but i guess that is neither here nor there. I went out and purchased a total of 21 keys yesterday so I can start earning the lobi to get the new space set (and possibly the ground set) and that sweet looking new mini-gun. Thanks to the stat picture post from earlier in the thread, i have to sadly say that I'm underwhelmed at the new set. For 200 Lobi, i really was expecting more. I'll go out on a limb and say I might pay 50-70 lobi for this, but 200 is something I'm not really willing to spend at this point.
(oh and as an aside, I'm not a pvp'er and I only have one character. I'm not looking to be over-powered, but I'd like something stronger than what I've got for that type of time and money).
Oh and the ground set visuals that I saw posted in this thread? I got no issue with them. I'm actually pleased with them because they aren't those awful Starfleet unitard plastic-looking things. If I had the extra lobi, I'd totally upgrade the sets that some of my BOff's are using. it never made sense to me that the visuals for the Jem ground set were of the Starfleet armor so kudos on the change!
Encouraging changes Jeremy. Thanks for listening. I will reserve judgement tho depending on the shield capacity and regen rates increase and i see my mates stats with the changes before i consider it as those were the largest of issues with it.
There seems to be a disconnect on what 'competitive' means.
Most of us interpret that to mean 'rough equity in power, but not a copy' whereas Cryptic seems to intend 'almost as good but still clearly inferior.'
I, and most people, don't have much interest in paying real money for clearly inferior, so thank you for clarifying and saving us the trouble.
No, Bort, the 'we still intend omega to be best' was not at all clear from the description of the new Jem stuff, particularly when you guys keep releasing ships that are categorically better than older ships -- we are confused because you are inconsistent about standards and levels of power.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
And of course while I was writing my thoughts, Borticus posted. I wouldn't mind those changes at that price. I'd just wait until next week to get it all then. I think I'm almost at 150 lobi as it is...
There seems to be a disconnect on what 'competitive' means.
Most of us interpret that to mean 'rough equity in power, but not a copy' whereas Cryptic seems to intend 'almost as good but still clearly inferior.'
I, and most people, don't have much interest in paying real money for clearly inferior, so thank you for clarifying and saving us the trouble.
No, Bort, the 'we still intend omega to be best' was not at all clear from the description of the new Jem stuff, particularly when you guys keep releasing ships that are categorically better than older ships -- we are confused because you are inconsistent about standards and levels of power.
I think this is the take away now.
I didn't read anywhere in any blog, post, or article that this set was meant to be inferior, sorry, 'Competitive' Read- not on par with, say, any other MK XII set in the game. So I don't think you are reminding us, as much as informing/spinning it. But either way, we get the point.
The engine buff, synergy buff, and sweep buff sound good. These really should have been included already. The shield buff with regen sound really good in combination as a whole.
We will see what happens with the new price as far as refund for already purchased items.
Anyone making the argument that, 1. "you just want good itam cause it is shopped" or 2. "this would break pve" really has no clue about game balance. No one here is asking for mega overpowered items, they are asking for comparable items to what is available in already "free" acquirable sets. So your logic is purely flawed.
OMG im so bloody angry 200lobi down the drain what a waste of time the set is terrible and improved? LOL yeah right its almost the exact same set i want my bloody lobi back :mad::mad::mad::mad:
Comments
This first happened with the orion ship we had interceptors built into the orion marauder and then they took those away from that ship making ppl who paid for it have to pay something else just to reobtain what they already have. Then they said well you can get slavers for free instead which then they turned around and put d-store ones up that they said would be more beneficial to buy but yet I can only get like maybe 2 contraband a month out of them. Yea I'm not an advocate of this give you one thing and then make you re-grind it to get it again or like this jem hadar set that costs tons of lobi but yet no boost for that.
He is not advocating anything. This isn't a free game set, it cost us cash and we expect something comperable to the investment.
Once we get it, what do we see?
That what we thought was going to make a sizable difference is really nothing special.
That there was no substanial visual upgrade for social status.
That would rather have the Lobi back and they can keep the existing MK XI sets we lost. We will just grind another set and call it fair enough.
That we were taken advantage of.
We can see that they went through a lot of trouble designing these sets so they stay under Aegis, MACO, and Omega. What I don't understand is why. This set didn't come grinding, this set didn't come from mission running, the crafting system, or a reputation system. It came from our wallets with direct purchase for as many keys as it took me to get to 200 Lobi.
I really expected more, but the saddest part is that I don't know why...
Let's make it clear then. If the devs bring pay to win to the game, it will be even easier. The game is incredibly easy. More OP sets would mean that they need to make PvE tougher, which would require a lot of work and improved free gear anyway, or it would mean leaving it as it is and see people quitting the game just because they have no challenge to overcome, nothing else/better they can get by playing the game.
What happens when you put the best gear in stores? People buy it, they enjoy it for a month maybe and then see that they have nothing to do, that the free stuff will remain inferior, that endgame content is boring thanks to "i win button" and slowly quit playing. This isn't a good strategy IMO.
Asking for better stats isn't reasonable because Cryptic can do this but it means killing the game or making tremendous efforts for a very small revenue. Balancing a game around new gear and new ships won't take a week or so...
Insead the price could be lowered on such sets in the future if people don't buy it and explain why on the forums. Of course if it's just nerdrage and whines don't expect anything but if you start thinking that if it's not worth it you won't buy it then it's ok and the store will be improved (at least if enough people don't buy the stuff).
That's what happened with keys yesterday, people said politely and with many arguments that the tactical carrier was a pure TRIBBLE on the forums, and ta-dah, a key sale happened a day after.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Anybody get it?
I can't find stats on it.
Any extra powers besides the pol + insl + anti pro. sweep?
Thanks,
another thread here - http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=524761
RachelJ88
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
I concur with redricky.
It can't be said any better than that.
This set was sub-standard to begin with, and now you can purchase for hundreds of lobi the same set with a 1% increase?
I had to quote it twice.
It was wasn't it
In the end though, you got what you paid for, a Mk12 version of those sets. had the tool tip said "this is the best set in the game, much better than any other set" then you would have a case.
Just because it cost lobi, and therefore real money (if you were silly enough to do that) it is still not a reason to make it an uber set.
From what I hear, the ground set Armour has better resists than the Mk12 Omega set.
Same goes for the federation space suit, it costs 700zen per character, but is not much different than the ones easily got ingame.
Personally, while I will never bother spending this money/time to get the upgrade, I wish it was on par with the other sets, simply for variety. More choices and more paths to them = good.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
They created this lobi store to add value to the lockboxes wouldn't feel cheated, and then put in the ultimate cheat by creating sets with marginal increases that mean nothing in actual play for 150 lobi?
This is a buyer beware item, and a ripoff that has clear intent dupe the unwary.
I didn't say pay to win anywhere in my post. I think you inferred that. So let me state it again with more clarity.
What I said is that this set is subpar to Aegis, MACO, and Omega in which two of these come in MK XII configuration. Closer inspection will reveal that I also said the Devs put effort to make it subpar. Each increase is a strict precentage, but not standard across the board.
What you can safely infer, without risk, is that I am saying the JH MK XII set should be on par with those other MK XII sets, not better. What would have been the point of everybody stopping what they were doing, purchasing keys to give money to Cryptic, to get this set as a MK XII if it wasn't? Honestly, who wants to pay for mediocrity? Excluding Cryptic who obvisouly expects it.
Lastly, I state that I am not sure why I thought the Devs would try to make this set on par with other MK XII kits, when I knew better.
What we have now is the MK XI kit we should have had originally that is almost on par with the Aegis, but it labeled MK XII, for some unexplainable reason.
all I'll say, is what I said in this thread;
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=525581
^that thread has been moved to here, I can't have any shiny moments! Darn It!
Its not worth the pixels its shown upon.
RachelJ88
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
More like they are leaving room for a 400 lobi upgrade to the "improved" MKXII... THAT WILL BE SOOO AWESOME FOR THE HIGH END CONTENT. lulz.
Figured I'd pop in and shed some light on the subject... The feedback we've gotten on these new features has been helpful (despite the hostility of some of it), and we've taken some time to improve the features a bit.
Before I detail the improvements we'll be making, I'd like to remind players that we still intend for STF/Omega and Starbase/Embassy gear to be superior in scope to items that can be obtained from Missions and/or Lobi Store. It's possible that our original blog was worded in a way that could easily be misinterpreted to mean otherwise, but it was not our intent to imply that the Jem'Hadar Mk XII upgrades would end up having similar stats/bonuses/procs to Omega & Fleet gear. Our intent was, instead, simply to allow this gear to remain somewhat competitive in our more difficult end-game content. It's an upgrade, not a fundamental re-design.
With that in mind, here's a list of some of the changes to the Jem'Hadar Space Set that've been made internally, and should appear with next week's update:
- Lobi Price on Space Set upgrade reduced from 200 to 150, to match with other Set Upgrade item prices.
- Space Shield has received more Capacity and Regen rate.
- Space Deflector's Stealth-related bonuses have been doubled.
- Space Engine's Weapon Power bonus has been doubled (just the static buff, not the Efficient part)
- Dominion Synergy (2pc Bonus) has had its bonuses increased by 50%.
- Antiproton Sweep will now disable Cloaks for longer (12sec, vs 10sec), drain more Shields per use (approx 20% increase), and recharges faster (90sec vs 120sec).
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Hello Bort!
For myself at least, I was looking at the Crystal-Woven ground gear > Lobi upgrade and thinking that's what might end up happening.
I understand that you don't want to make this set superior to the Rep/Fleet gear, but even at the new price of 150 lobi - a smart player is going to see that as 150 lobi / 4 lobi per box = WCS Cost of $37.50.
Which is more than any single, T5 ship in the store and approaches the price of the ship bundles. (It could cost less, you might get "lucky").
Anyway, those changes look reasonable for people that might be attracted to buying it.
While I love purple, 150 lobi is still quite a lot for something that doesn't compete with the gear I do have.
(oh and as an aside, I'm not a pvp'er and I only have one character. I'm not looking to be over-powered, but I'd like something stronger than what I've got for that type of time and money).
Oh and the ground set visuals that I saw posted in this thread? I got no issue with them. I'm actually pleased with them because they aren't those awful Starfleet unitard plastic-looking things. If I had the extra lobi, I'd totally upgrade the sets that some of my BOff's are using. it never made sense to me that the visuals for the Jem ground set were of the Starfleet armor so kudos on the change!
My character Tsin'xing
Most of us interpret that to mean 'rough equity in power, but not a copy' whereas Cryptic seems to intend 'almost as good but still clearly inferior.'
I, and most people, don't have much interest in paying real money for clearly inferior, so thank you for clarifying and saving us the trouble.
No, Bort, the 'we still intend omega to be best' was not at all clear from the description of the new Jem stuff, particularly when you guys keep releasing ships that are categorically better than older ships -- we are confused because you are inconsistent about standards and levels of power.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I think this is the take away now.
I didn't read anywhere in any blog, post, or article that this set was meant to be inferior, sorry, 'Competitive' Read- not on par with, say, any other MK XII set in the game. So I don't think you are reminding us, as much as informing/spinning it. But either way, we get the point.
The engine buff, synergy buff, and sweep buff sound good. These really should have been included already. The shield buff with regen sound really good in combination as a whole.
We will see what happens with the new price as far as refund for already purchased items.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |