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Tricobalt Mines : Upcoming Changes

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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I'm curious why you classify mines as a DOT dmg.

    There a damage over time weapon... imo.
    I can drop them counting on them to do dmg 5-30s later. (they are also more then one hit.... in many MMOs they have skills that cause dmg 5-20s later if they are not removed... its a close comparison I think)

    Honestly its Cryptics own engine that treats them that way... they are calculated as such, as evidenced in the way the critical hits are calculated in the same way as any other over time dmg.

    I do believe that the entire issue of any mines or mine based weapon (breen cluster will be the next complained about item after the trics are fixed) being considered unbalanced revolves around critical hits. So why not remove critical hits from them period. Then look at the dmg numbers of each weapons. Another increase to mine base dmg would be a nice boost for sci and engi, playing sci / sci and engi / engi... and remove the 1.2mil tac boosted tric crits... and the 100k breen cluster tac crit roll as well.... not to mention that a Dispersal pattern Quantum or Plasma mine field in PvE from a tac can crit north of 100k as well.

    I doubt honestly that systems will be able to Unlink things in the way people seem to agree would be right. Server load issues aside... if we delink Critical calculations on Dots while still allowing them.... Tac based Dot Builds are going to be come obscene... think of it this way....

    If Cryptic delinks dot crit calcs... The probability math of landing ALOT more critical hits on dots goes up believe it or not. Yes right now you can get lucky and crit chain 2-3 dots and do lots of dmg... still a delinked system will overall = more dmg and honestly it will be super reliable.... the chances of NOT getting a massive amount of crits out of your delinked dots will be very low.

    I think the Systems guys are smart enough to understand how the server will handle all the extra math, and will likely simply say it can't be done. Really think about all the extra math... Gravity wells.... Tykens... TBR... Tractor beams... EWP... Plasma Weapons... aceton (I know lol) mines, right now the server makes one dice roll for all of those skills/weapons at the start of there cycles. Now the server would have to continue to roll on every single tick... for every single player AND every single NPC and Pet toy... I doubt the server can handle it honestly... It is why a game like *cough* GW doesn't have condition dmg crit, as a nice bonus its better for balance anyway... so its a win win, less server load easier to balance... The Cryptic guys should take some notes.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • deathfromabove17deathfromabove17 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    You do realize that this also affects PvE right? And the OP even mention's adding a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    You do realize that this also affects PvE right? And the OP even mention's adding a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs.

    The fix would be aimed almost entirely at Pve... this is a Pve Issue not really a pvp one.

    Annoying in PvP sure... but game breaking in PvE.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • omgrandalthoromgrandalthor Member Posts: 364 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    You do realize that this also affects PvE right? And the OP even mention's adding a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs.

    Tell me more how putting point defense on npcs will help the "pvp" side to these things...
  • paxottomanpaxottoman Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Because a systematic change to multiple mechanics in the game won't have any effect on non-PvP players right?

    Go make a thread about it in PvE game play feedback. Thanks.
    Turkish RP Heroes
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • davidfloresiidavidfloresii Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    no go on! it all still relevant to mines. :cool: they are putting them on there for mines are they not?

    ps don't mind that Sauerkraut Pax. he's just a grumpy. lol
  • edited January 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • broken1981broken1981 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Tell me more how putting point defense on npcs will help the "pvp" side to these things...

    it wont. .........
    Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
    I can throw [Fireworks] at you and hope you catch on fire and burn to death lol
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    There a damage over time weapon... imo.
    I can drop them counting on them to do dmg 5-30s later. (they are also more then one hit.... in many MMOs they have skills that cause dmg 5-20s later if they are not removed... its a close comparison I think)

    I don't think they fit that definition specifically, I see them as a burst damage tool similar to Torpedos but with a (delayed) delivery mechanic.

    I tend to consider something like Plasma Torpedo Procs to fit the definition of a DOT ability better.

    I agree with a lot of the rest of your ideas on it though, and personally think the "one crit all crit" should be the first thing they attempt to fix but I don't have an answer to the second issue you mentioned about how that might actually make crits more reliable if they are allowed to continue to crit.

    I'm not sure I agree with them being separate from crits entirely however.
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    While I'm not quick to dismiss the many lengthy posts in this thread, in all frankness I'm not convinced that a majority of players have participated in PvP games where tric mine were abused.
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    vids and guides and stuff

    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • omgrandalthoromgrandalthor Member Posts: 364 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    @beameddown

    The biggest difference in this is that in star trek they had what 20 torps and 10 mines on a cruiser ship so they had to use them sparingly in here its infinite. another thing is the tos enterprise took a trike to the face no shields and it made it took damage but it did not get insta killed.

    Once again i will say it because people don't read THEY ARE HARD TO TARGET OUT OF ALL THE SPAM so shooting them down is a nogo. Torps are great to use in pvp and mines i use mines just not the op bs ones. People don't use them because skill speck it costs so much to speck in both wep types.
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    paxottoman wrote: »
    Go make a thread about it in PvE game play feedback. Thanks.

    People have. They inevitably get folded into this thread.

    For once, stop giving people who feel that STOs PvP population is little more than a group of condescending TRIBBLE a leg to stand on, and actually have a productive conversation about the full effects of the proposed changes for all players, not just the ones you "allow" into your sub-forum because they share your playstyle.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    The full of effect of the changes is that the fail PvEers that rely on Trics to do damage will still be able to blow up the joke targets in PvE.

    While PvPers will no longer have to deal with a combo that is hard to resist if not outright impractical.

    Good lord, it's as if people never did PvE before Tric mines got buffed.


    Edit:


    Yeah, don't bother replying to that beammedown person. They are a member of one of the most prominent Tric mine spamming PvE fleets in the game.

    lolFleets that basically stay in CnH to pugstomp dilithium farmers, noobs, and those unfortunate enough to want to have fun.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Yeah, I've started using a Tric bomber and they're good, but.... it's not an instawin....
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • blockbustersblockbusters Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Well, i think this has been all blown out of proportion... again.
    Because at the moment it goes like this... sort of...
    "We could do with players using mines, lets give them a boost shall we?" --Dev
    "Oh nice mines are now a viable weapon addition to my build! Nice one Cryptic!" ---Playerbase
    "OMG, Tric mines are killing me! I can't adapt my build to counter them because i don't want to FFS OMFG WTH!!!!"
    "Have you seen these tric mines? They need to be nerfed! NERFED I TELL THEEE NERFED!!!" --- Generalisation of the pvp community's response..


    Plenty of ways to counter trics, here's a list!

    Tractor Beam Repulsors
    Fire At Will
    Gravity Well
    Cannon Scatter Volley

    just to name a few.

    Oh and some Kinetic Damage Resistance boosting armor might help as well! Polarise hull? Brace for Impact? AuxtoSIF?

    Thank me later...

    P.s I've done my fair share of fighting b'rels with trics... Fire on my mark, Attack Pattern Beta? Sensor Scan to name a few, you know all these abillities that could help you!

    Time to adapt ladies and gentlemen.
    I'm the guy that uses unconventional builds, and don't fall to the normal. I also don't believe in "No-BS" TRIBBLE, it's in the game, it's ready to be used. Think Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge.
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    snoge00f wrote: »
    The full of effect of the changes is that the fail PvEers that rely on Trics to do damage will still be able to blow up the joke targets in PvE.

    While PvPers will no longer have to deal with a combo that is hard to resist if not outright impractical.

    Good lord, it's as if people never did PvE before Tric mines got buffed.


    Edit:


    Yeah, don't bother replying to that beammedown person. They are a member of one of the most prominent Tric mine spamming PvE fleets in the game.

    lolFleets that basically stay in CnH to pugstomp dilithium farmers, noobs, and those unfortunate enough to want to have fun.


    For about the fourth time you've completely missed the point. I don't give a damn about Tricos. I care about collateral damage from:

    1) Cryptic's inability or unwillingness to deal with chain crits

    and

    2) Cryptic's apparent desire to make non-frigate and cruiser ships immune to targetable projectiles and hangar pets of any kind.

    Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that those changes will have zero impact on non-pvp players?
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    For about the fourth time you've completely missed the point. I don't give a damn about Tricos. I care about collateral damage from:

    1) Cryptic's inability or unwillingness to deal with chain crits

    and

    2) Cryptic's apparent desire to make non-frigate and cruiser ships immune to targetable projectiles and hangar pets of any kind.

    Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that those changes will have zero impact on non-pvp players?

    You're clueless.

    It will have no reasonable impact whatsoever in the joke PvE content in this game. If you could not finish PvE before the changes, you will still suck after the changes.

    Who the **** needs Trics to beat content?

    I never once used Trics to finish content before, nor do I have to now. Even if they implemented all of the changes, PvE would be still be a laugh.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    "- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
    *** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)"

    And to follow up on the idea that adding this defense to NPCs would be bad:

    So ****ing what?

    If you can't beat NPCs without mines or destructible high-yield torps, you suck at the game.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    People have. They inevitably get folded into this thread.

    For once, stop giving people who feel that STOs PvP population is little more than a group of condescending TRIBBLE a leg to stand on, and actually have a productive conversation about the full effects of the proposed changes for all players, not just the ones you "allow" into your sub-forum because they share your playstyle.

    what about the pve'rs that are coming in here and basically saying- "i like the big boom, it sucks for you though."

    you can only stay level headed so long before you yourself become one with the village idiots.
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Fix it so the Chain Crits no longer make the use of tric mines plus DpB a no-brainer in combat without making the Mines obsolete all over again.

    The fact that One Crits they all Crit is the true issue here.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    snoge00f wrote: »
    "- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
    *** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)"

    And to follow up on the idea that adding this defense to NPCs would be bad:

    So ****ing what?

    If you can't beat NPCs without mines or destructible high-yield torps, you suck at the game.

    Do you have an argument for anything beyond "you suck, I'm better?". Why don't we take your logic a bit further, and remove boff abilities all together? How about shields and deflectors? You don't really need them to do anything after all...
    maicake716 wrote: »
    what about the pve'rs that are coming in here and basically saying- "i like the big boom, it sucks for you though."


    They have no more of a leg to stand on than the folks who argue the above as far as I'm concerned.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Do you have an argument for anything beyond "you suck, I'm better?". Why don't we take your logic a bit further, and remove boff abilities all together? How about shields and deflectors? You don't really need them to do anything after all...

    :P

    Giving a balance pass to Trics, is in no way comparable to removing basic gear.

    No one needs Trics in their current state to beat PvE content. When I was a complete noob, I had no issues beating it without Trics.

    I also completed the old STFs without using Trics.

    We've been beating this content for years now without having to rely on DPB Tric mines, so no it's not necessary.

    It's a reasonable decision to adjust these Trics because of how silly they break PvE content length, and how overpowered they are in PvP. These aren't fundamental abilities needed to play or complete content in the game.

    And if you want to improve at the game so you don't have to rely on that junk, then just ask people in these forums for advice.

    No one wants to deny information on how to get better at the game.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    snoge00f wrote: »
    :P

    Giving a balance pass to Trics, is in no way comparable to removing basic gear.

    No one needs Trics in their current state to beat PvE content. When I was a complete noob, I had no issues beating it without Trics.

    I also completed the old STFs without using Trics.

    We've been beating this content for years now without having to rely on DPB Tric mines, so no it's not necessary.

    It's a reasonable decision to adjust these Trics because of how silly they break PvE content length, and how overpowered they are in PvP. These aren't fundamental abilities needed to play or complete content in the game.

    And if you want to improve at the game so you don't have to rely on that junk, then just ask people in these forums for advice.

    No one wants to deny information on how to get better at the game.

    Do you actually read what other people post? Any weapon that can one-shot high-end content (or players) has no place in STO. Trico nerfs are not (nor have they ever been) my concern. Collateral damage from the changes to other areas of the game is.

    Harp on Tricos all you want, but you've yet to give a good reason as to why all mines, all targetable projectiles and all hangar craft should be effectively removed from the game just because one specific utilization of one weapon (Tricobalt mines) is currently ridiculous. Instead, you've come back with the same refrain over and over again: "I know better than you, so shut the hell up and do what I say because my opinion matters but yours doesn't".
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Do you actually read what other people post? Any weapon that can one-shot high-end content (or players) has no place in STO. Trico nerfs are not (nor have they ever been) my concern. Collateral damage from the changes to other areas of the game is.

    Harp on Tricos all you want, but you've yet to give a good reason as to why all mines, all targetable projectiles and all hangar craft should be effectively removed from the game just because one specific utilization of one weapon (Tricobalt mines) is currently ridiculous. Instead, you've come back with the same refrain over and over again: "I know better than you, so shut the hell up and do what I say because my opinion matters but yours doesn't".

    I have been reading your complaints. They are premature and exaggerated.

    There won't be severe collateral damage to PvE. Nothing that will make the content harder or worse, so I don't really see your point.

    If you could beat the content before the nerfs, you will do so after the nerfs.

    The balance pass necessity offsets any possible negative PvE consequences.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Just fix the trics.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • brandonflbrandonfl Member Posts: 892
    edited January 2013
    Do you actually read what other people post? Any weapon that can one-shot high-end content (or players) has no place in STO. Trico nerfs are not (nor have they ever been) my concern. Collateral damage from the changes to other areas of the game is.

    Harp on Tricos all you want, but you've yet to give a good reason as to why all mines, all targetable projectiles and all hangar craft should be effectively removed from the game just because one specific utilization of one weapon (Tricobalt mines) is currently ridiculous. Instead, you've come back with the same refrain over and over again: "I know better than you, so shut the hell up and do what I say because my opinion matters but yours doesn't".

    Physician, heal thyself. The only proposed change that would kill off all mine types in PvE is the PDS on NPC's. I for one have stated that would be a bad idea. I believe most PvPers agree with that sentiment. All we want is for the 1-shot ability to be toned down in some way.
    LOLSTO
  • omgrandalthoromgrandalthor Member Posts: 364 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Well, i think this has been all blown out of proportion... again.
    Because at the moment it goes like this... sort of...
    "We could do with players using mines, lets give them a boost shall we?" --Dev
    "Oh nice mines are now a viable weapon addition to my build! Nice one Cryptic!" ---Playerbase
    "OMG, Tric mines are killing me! I can't adapt my build to counter them because i don't want to FFS OMFG WTH!!!!"
    "Have you seen these tric mines? They need to be nerfed! NERFED I TELL THEEE NERFED!!!" --- Generalisation of the pvp community's response..


    Plenty of ways to counter trics, here's a list!

    Tractor Beam Repulsors
    Fire At Will
    Gravity Well
    Cannon Scatter Volley

    just to name a few.

    Oh and some Kinetic Damage Resistance boosting armor might help as well! Polarise hull? Brace for Impact? AuxtoSIF?

    Thank me later...

    P.s I've done my fair share of fighting b'rels with trics... Fire on my mark, Attack Pattern Beta? Sensor Scan to name a few, you know all these abillities that could help you!

    Time to adapt ladies and gentlemen.

    here is another fool that does not READ OR TEST TRIBBLE!!!! So read this i can solo a infected with trics i can insta kill a tac cube with trics through its shields. As far as FORCING people to play a faw spam escort or a cruser sci ship is redicleous because noobs like you need these op things to play a game.

    Your defenses are **** "spam" lots of it happens in pvp hard to see the tric tag and single it out and if you do that that is all you are going to do that match is kill peoples tric spam. There are also things like scramble and ams what a thought now you cant even shoot the effing things. How about you get some skill and not make it so people have to fly a tric bomb faw cruser or a faw escort and you get some skill k thanks.
  • xelkhasxelkhas Member Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    snoge00f wrote: »
    If you can't beat NPCs without mines or destructible high-yield torps, you suck at the game.

    What about Mine/Torpedo Boats - they do not have Energy Weapons at all - i know how to beat the game without them, but the work of a Torp Boat is to use Torpedos and Mines ... e.g. BoP Retrofit is an excellent ship for such a build - why do people suck if they want still be able to use mines and torps?

    Please be a little more prepared to compromise in this place and consider people which have fun to play Torp Boats and with Mines and are sensitive to this nerf, only concern for MOST of them is that they are not nerfed in a way that they are useless at all.

    Of cause you can respec and build some Cannon Build, but thats not the discussion here - any weapon available should still be playable and it should be possible to beat the game with it.
    E.g. if NPCs get HighYield Torps or Mines immunity - i would really be lost against such an opponent with my TorpBoat.
  • omgrandalthoromgrandalthor Member Posts: 364 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    the only other torp/mine that is a bit over the top is the breen cluster because of chain crits rest are pretty good get the shields down and hy quants there is some good damage!

    Sometimes a full team of transpasics get a little out of hand i have 40 kenetic resistance and my escort can only have so many heals on it so they will over comb my heals pretty fast if they do it right seams that torp spread does not miss :/

    Guess what some of you idiots want is everyone in a faw cruiser...
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Well, i think this has been all blown out of proportion... again.
    Because at the moment it goes like this... sort of...
    "We could do with players using mines, lets give them a boost shall we?" --Dev
    "Oh nice mines are now a viable weapon addition to my build! Nice one Cryptic!" ---Playerbase
    "OMG, Tric mines are killing me! I can't adapt my build to counter them because i don't want to FFS OMFG WTH!!!!"
    "Have you seen these tric mines? They need to be nerfed! NERFED I TELL THEEE NERFED!!!" --- Generalisation of the pvp community's response..


    Plenty of ways to counter trics, here's a list!

    Tractor Beam Repulsors
    Fire At Will
    Gravity Well
    Cannon Scatter Volley

    just to name a few.

    Oh and some Kinetic Damage Resistance boosting armor might help as well! Polarise hull? Brace for Impact? AuxtoSIF?

    Thank me later...

    P.s I've done my fair share of fighting b'rels with trics... Fire on my mark, Attack Pattern Beta? Sensor Scan to name a few, you know all these abillities that could help you!

    Time to adapt ladies and gentlemen.

    This is a really good example of what I mean when I say that the overwhelming majority of posters in this thread have no clue what they're talking about and zero experience dealing with Arena/C'n'Luls tric mines.

    Ignoring the fact that you're quite clearly describing a B'rel bomber (who almost always use torps, not mines, outside of Ker'rat spawn camping scenarios) the only reliable resist for a bomber in all of those is BfI. Now, again, let's be generous and assume this is a one-on-one scenario with a single tric bomber and a single target.

    Someone stocks up double tric mines in the rear. Now tric mines have a 60 second individual cooldown but only a 30 second shared cooldown. He hits DP:B, lays out his first tric pattern and the other launcher is set to go in 30 seconds. You hit BfI to survive the first loadout: BfI has a 60 second cooldown, so while you're waiting he's got not only another launcher ready but another pattern too. Bar extreme luck or you blowing everything you have, welcome to respawn.

    If you want to skew the queues even further towards dedicated teams who can bring anti-spam measures to bear, be my guest (though quite frankly our fleet has found all of the common listed counters poor at best to useless at worst; tric mines carry an innate MES which is quite high, and skills like GW have prohibitively long cooldowns compared to loaded weapons like mines). However these mines are awful to deal with in the queues and I'm absolutely positive they've turned off a hell of a lot of potential players to the game.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    vids and guides and stuff

    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
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