I really really don't like the automated defense option. That would be great at respawn points but NPCs as spam control seems like it goes too far. Trics need a bit of work but in my opinion, any solution that takes control out of the players hands and gives it to the AI is a mistake.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
This game is always going to have problems like this as long as the PvE and PvP rules are kept the same. PvE players will never get really good gear as long as that gear has to not upset the game balance of the PvP environment.
The real solution is to have different rule sets for PvE and PvP. I have an idear for a new Hardcore PvP mode which could help this problem by restricting what new equipment and skills are useable in PvP.
After mulling it over for a few weeks, I think having the mine pattern provide individual mines at reduced damage per mine is going to work out the best. Something along these lines, but don't take them anything like hard numbers. This also presupposes that the 'one crits the whole net crits" bug is hammered out.
Dispersal Pattern: Alpha/Beta 3: 4 Mines, group total 2.5 times the damage of a single base mine. 25% of normal stun duration per mine.
Probably something along those lines to account for them requiring higher-level BOff slots to make use of patterns, while keeping them from being guaranteed ship-gibbers. The PDS system is not a good choice for AI battleships as it would likely render all mine fields, even the useful but not particularly damaging chroniton mines, worthless in the vicinity of battleships.
[Edit]
Got ninja'd by a sidetrack of conversation. Splitting PvE and PvP development would be an extremely costly and labor intensive undertaking, one unlikely to ever occur for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is that it further polarizes the the player base between content and requires two completely different skill sets and knowledge bases on the part of the game's players.
[long winded rambling JM2c]
Much of the problems in the game stemming from "don't nerf it just because it broke PvP" and "those dirty PvE'ers don't understand how the real game works" comes from an underlying fault in the game's encounter design to utilize the mechanics that are present in the game to its fullest extent, both at the "mob" level and the "mission structure" level. This is most evident in the fact that player ships and mob ships, while having some overlap in skill and role, operate in vastly different paradigms. Mob ships, particularly in STF's but also in other group content, revolve around doling out large hits of damage, weight of numbers, and grossly disproportional (though finite) hit points to maintain a sense of threat and durability. Player ships, by comparison, rely on carefully applied heals and damage resistance to keep damage at sustainable levels, essentially maintaining themselves, while searching out or making an opportunity to deliver a swift and decisive blow for a kill. Many of those abilities, however, end up wasted on mobs that are swinging between instantly killing you regardless of your defenses or not doing enough damage to threaten you in the first place. Of course, having the mobs work like players play would have its own problems as well, especially in pickup games where you can't rely on there being a class/player that can create an opening to quickly kill the mob, and exacerbated by being under a time limit and facing enemies with weight of numbers.
Short form? The game's encounter design should have been built around, and driven by, its mechanics as they are used in all parts of the game to eliminate, or at least greatly diminish, the divergent development of what are, essentially, two different "languages' within the player base. To make such a correction at this time would be a massive, and likely extremely expensive, endeavor, one very unlikely to occur. So, we end up with gear and abilities which has to be designed to plug in and make sense and be appealing to two different player groups, usually, and the detriment of one or the other... at least for awhile.
[/long winded rambling JM2c]
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
DPB Tric Mines
Aceton Assimilators x2
SNB Doffs
Broken TIV Placate
Syphon Drones
Plasmonic Leech
JHAS w/ any or combination of any of above mentioned
These are all cheese and the current state of competative PvP. The community at large uses them so don't let anyone tell you in game or on the forums what you can and cannot use because they're just being self-serving, as they themselves most likely use any number of this junk.
Till Cryptic actually gives a TRIBBLE about PvP, I say smoke 'em if you got 'em.
Honestly friend, use whatever the hell you feel like. No one has the right to stop you and there's no form of Internet police that'll kick your door down for using exploits or broken game mechanics in STO. As far as I know it's harder to get a reprimand from GMs than it is to get fired from SNL for being unfunny, so even if you load up on Embassy DOffs you're in safe hands anyway.
That said, please don't try and justify your decision by claiming that everyone uses them so your hand was forced. Some of us who refuse to touch the stuff don't appreciate baseless accusations.
This game is always going to have problems like this as long as the PvE and PvP rules are kept the same. PvE players will never get really good gear as long as that gear has to not upset the game balance of the PvP environment.
The real solution is to have different rule sets for PvE and PvP. I have an idear for a new Hardcore PvP mode which could help this problem by restricting what new equipment and skills are useable in PvP.
Everyone may hate it, but it would solve a lot of problems and stop the developers having to nerf every good new toy.
I disagree.
I think the same rules for both works fine and its peoples expectations of how things should work that often need the adjustment.
Some things are simply broken regardless of wether its for PvP or PvE.
It is my strong opinion, that if Dispersal Patterns are nerfed to the proposed numbers in the OP, they should be brought town a tier on the BOFF skills.
The damage dealt by Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced by 10% across-the-board.
The damage variance of Tricobalt Mine Explosions has been reduced from 20% to 5%.
This will lead to more predictable damage - fewer highs, fewer lows.
The stealth value on Tricobalt Mines has been reduced by approximately 25%.
Okay first question: Why is this being nerfed?
Obviously it was regarded as overpowered and had to be reduced. Because people abused it in PvP and PvE.
But the thing I don't understand is, in classic Cryptic fashion, you alter something and the changes become overpowered and you nerf again. So why don't you just go back to the previous version?
For example, before you allowed multiple Tricobalts to spawn when using Mine Patterns, it was a singular and powerful explosive. Then you changed it to be included with the Mine Patterns, and this happened, then forced to nerf it because people abused it. So why not just revert it to the previous version where it was a singular powerful explosive? That way people would go back to normally using Photon and Quantum mines?
Actually, with the reduced damage variance, we should see far less super-crits. That is a good thing.
When I was testing it on tribble, I didn't see as many Crits, this is true. But then again I was testing with only 1 Tric Mine.. No Cool down Doffs. And my mine was CrtDx3 I saw maybe 1 Super Crit vs a Borg Cube compared to Aproximately 15 or so Non Crits*.
*It's an approximation because I didn't actually keep count.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Actually, with the reduced damage variance, we should see far less super-crits. That is a good thing.
I suppose that's true, though honestly there are so many oodles of sources of crit these days that it'll only step down from "nightmarish" to "a pain in the TRIBBLE".
here is another fool that does not READ OR TEST TRIBBLE!!!! So read this i can solo a infected with trics i can insta kill a tac cube with trics through its shields. As far as FORCING people to play a faw spam escort or a cruser sci ship is redicleous because noobs like you need these op things to play a game.
Your defenses are **** "spam" lots of it happens in pvp hard to see the tric tag and single it out and if you do that that is all you are going to do that match is kill peoples tric spam. There are also things like scramble and ams what a thought now you cant even shoot the effing things. How about you get some skill and not make it so people have to fly a tric bomb faw cruser or a faw escort and you get some skill k thanks.
1) Oh i've tested the mines, not to my playstyle i'm afraid, the DPB3 isn't worth as much to me as the CRF3, or any attack pattern 3 skill. I don't use tric mines, so i don't need these "things to play a game"
2) I never said anything about forcing players into a "faw spam escort or a cruser sci ship" , and it isn't what i intended. These abillities are very useful, an escort (lets say defiant, i fly one), can out run these mines, if i get tractor, i can use FAW, Scatter Volley, Torp spread 3, Tractor beam repulsors (which also enable a very nice tactic of keeping your cannons on the target etc etc).
3) Tric mines have a shared cooldown of 30 seconds, activation time of 5 seconds, and depending on distance, 5 seconds. So within 30 seconds, you can get an area of effect off cooldown, and if you are watching your opponent, can time the skill correctly.
4) If you get hit by AMS/Scramble sensors etc, you can use Science team (useful if you are in a Sci, or good for tanks to clear subnukes) to get rid of the effect, for escorts, i suggest evasive, or attack pattern omega, or fulll power to engines, (you should be changing your power setting regularly in pvp to accomadate the situation).
5) I don't consider myself a noob... and I honestly hope, after reading all of that above, you'll realise i am not one. I don't call myself the best of the best, in fact I'm above average at best apparently.
Are you telling me that when the Defiant came up against the Breen Energy Dampening weapon Sisko and co stood back and started shouting OP and nerf please?
The only problem with these mines i can see are the link crits, they're not "working as intended".
I'm the guy that uses unconventional builds, and don't fall to the normal. I also don't believe in "No-BS" TRIBBLE, it's in the game, it's ready to be used. Think Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge.
I'm interested in seeing the change in action but I'm still disappointed that the mines can't harm the user if they get too close when they go off. It just seems like such an obvious mechanic since that would bring them in line with the mechanics of others.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
I am disappointed in a big way, not cause they are making a change, ok, maybe they are excessive and need toning down, the crit thing definitely is a bug and needs fixed.
The fact that an AI enemy can shoot down my tricolbalts is a key thing here. Most players I have played against in PvP can shoot down my tricobalts, I mean it is NOT hard, in fact they about a fluke hit more than a strategic weapon, and when they do get through and do miss hitting shields and do get a good roll of dice, yes they are good.... it is a RARE occasion unless the opposition is deaf dumb AND blind!
So why is it, that people who cannot handle these easy to kill weapons all cry and get things changed, yet all the bugs that NEED fixing FIRST get ignored and sidelined.
How about the fact that the Alert in Tau Dewa sector never seems to be there for example. This is annoying, go into alert... nothing there, hmmm how about fixing that first.
Or how about cubes that just after you drop mines, suddenly jumping out of range of your mines.... I mean the cubes skipping around the STF when in combat is a good defense against my mines, in fact most times my mines end up sitting in space doing nothing though I dropped them at 0.0km ranges and suddenly they over 4km away...
In fact, I talk to people who have no end of troubles in this game, fix their issues THEN make changes!
I mean this is ridiculous, Cryptic now TRIBBLE us for massive amounts of dilithium for reputation things, star bases go on hold, they demand us to repeat boring missions again and again for the reputation marks and dilithium and all the rest....
Or get you to spend real money yet when it comes down to it, they don't seem to care that they making the game a boring grinding motion that just makes your teeth hurt and many ppl I know already dumped the game for War of Tanks or something that they trying to get me into instead.
You killing the game, try fixing things, making it fun again, and for all the cry babies, was making the mine changes REALLY that important? Could you not learn to shoot them down for a while like every one else and let the things that are broken get fixed first??
Get priorities straight, fix the mine's critical bugs sure. It not working correctly...
But, here is a suggestion... how about fixing things that dont work at all first please,
If I can learn to shoot mines, and by the way... I never get hit by them!!!!
I am sure these complainers can do that too for a while it may just improve their playing abilities....
..... or..... is this just too hard a skill for some people to learn???
You have some good points there, and while nobody here isn't saying there are other things that DO need to get fixed, even if they were fixed (and might take longer to fix than these), tric mines would still BE there, still super-powerful and still causing problems all across the game, as compared with only single, individual problems in areas of the game.
In PvE, these are bad because they allow people (particularly in STFs) to just out-damage something, and skipping entire portions of a mission in a way the devs never intended. Especially if buffed by tacs and/or chain critting.
In both PvE and PvP, yes, they can be shot down, I don't deny it. But even in PvP, shooting them down often times isn't enough. There are ways and counters to everything.
Anything from the cheapness of an AMS, to the borderline-OP usage of the Tipler Console on the Temporal Sci vessel which freezes your opponent preventing them from making ANY kind of retaliation. Your opponent can hide them in the visual effect of another power like Scramble Sensors or EWP.
Heck, a simple yet effective solution is just overwhelm your opponent with mines and other things they can target, just preventing them from shooting it ALL down with an ability.
Those who use tric mines like this on a consistant basis, in PvE or PvP, know all this, and use it to the best of their ability. They will shut something or someone down, prevent counters (or make their opponent waste them), hold them in place somehow, and then kill them anyways.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I dont get hit by them, but then I dont allow myself to get so close to target to be blindsided like that or follow a target around like a lost dog. Players with skill use STRATEGY to avoid these things. As for the STFs to be honest, having a small advantage is nice, seeing as most the enemies now do one shots no matter how big a tank you make. Finishing a battle as fast as possible is good, but how often does this happen, I use trics yes, but most the time ist comes down to me going nose to nose with a cube and using shield and hull abilities to stay alive long enough for my CANNONS to kill it, why? cause the trics dont hit like that every time....
And in case of emergency, Point defense is fine... but ok, you fix the mines, go ahead, but how long before they start moaning about king hitting torpedos? These new plasma torps I using do more for me than my trics, they hit more often and crit beautifully and I have no need to put myself in harms way to get them to target.
And the string of them I get as well, WOW more effective than my Trics, I get more of them, I can keep shields down while they hit cause of rapid fire and all the wonderful bridge officer skills I have.
I mean, where does it end? how long before someone starts moaning about another feature? Why cannot people learn to OUT THINK a situation. I do, people I play against sure as hell do, they kill me all the time in PvP and my Trics dont kill them... funny that.... they play with skill and brains, they use tactics and dont let themselves fall for a pissy lil mine attack...
This is what I mean, fix broken stuff, for the rest, use your brains maybe? It is not hard to think about a situation and NOT fall for it again. I mean, some of these federation ships have so many fancy gadgets that my Fleet Tor'Kat does not even come close, my ONLY saving grace is my firepower of my cannons and quick thinking, NOT my trics...
I mean, where does it end? how long before someone starts moaning about another feature? Why cannot people learn to OUT THINK a situation. I do, people I play against sure as hell do, they kill me all the time in PvP and my Trics dont kill them... funny that.... they play with skill and brains, they use tactics and dont let themselves fall for a pissy lil mine attack...
.
LOL at "pissy" attack. An attack that necessitates an Intrepid Ablative Armor/PH/HE to survive just one DPB Tric mine hit is a pissy attack?
Never mind that the people deploying them aren't going to stand around just wait for you to run over them, like mimey2 alluded to in the post you mostly ignored, they will use other abilities to facilitate their success in deploying and hitting targets with them.
No one worth their salt has their Trics on autofire and just spams them aimlessly. The real problem comes from the players who use all of the tools at their disposal to make Tric crits a consistent possibility, not the noobs who just autofire hoping to get one kill.
I did not ignore his comments, people use these tools and like I said, use your brains to avoid them. How hard is it to stay away from a location that they have flown through???
I said USE YOUR BRAINS, there will ALWAYS be tools at their disposal, new science vessels with their "backstep" Jamming sensors, even the simple warp plasma then drop mines. People will always think of combinations to make a tool do the best by them, why?
They use their BRAINS to get the BEST out of a TOOL!
You are complaining because they taking a feature and using it to the BEST possible ability. Every time they have something kool come out, people WILL USE IT! You might as well dumb down all the fancy gadgets and make it back to shields, energy weapons and piloting skill if you are going to complain about the gadgets, or maybe stick to tiddlywinks instead?
As for the mines, if you cannot use your brains and keep away from a player using them, avoiding the areas he flown through, staying out of possible dangerous locations, try to out think an opponent, then maybe Normal STFs you should play.
(Submariners and destroyers in the wars is a good thing for you to think about, they had a situation that was far more difficult and they made the situation work for them best as they could! Maybe read up on history to learn how they used brains to avoid getting killed, they could not see their target, they had to OUT THINK their opponents.)
If you WANT a challenge and WANT it made HARD and WANT people to bring their A-GAME so you can have a REAL BATTLE of the WITS, then stop your bloody moaning and learn to think!
This is what PvP is about!!! Pushing to the limit and finding a real challenge to beat instead of the boring grinds that the game has become, PvP is the only challenge left and you want to DUMB IT DOWN????.
I am NOT ignoring what these other people are saying, I heard all they said. But I am telling you to think not moan.
There will always be a fancy gadget, the part that makes it fun is trying to figure out ways to BEAT THAT GADGET!
Or do you just want a game that is easy for you and you dont have to think?
DPB Tric mines alone are not highly complicated attacks. They require little to no depth in thinking at all. PvP has been fine without DPB Trics for years; it does not need them in their current state. :P
They're out of balance with what other weapons can do damage wise given how easy is it to slot one in the back of your ship. And with the space given by AP Doffs, you can even fit a high level DPB pattern on your Escort without losing much damage from your cannons.
And like I mentioned above, only one combo can resist one DPB Tric mine that has been Tac buffed:
A PH/HE buffed Intrepid with Ablative Armor activated.
And only one mine at that, the rest will still kill you after you've been stunned out of your armor. :P
ahh I see, the real problem is not about the mines, it about some weapon able to beat you with all your fancy gadgets..... I fully understand now, it got nothing to do with the crit bug, or tactics or anything else, it about you got a fancy ship and it got fancy gadgetry and all these goodies on board to save your bacon and you pissed cause someone has a gadget that beats it....
I got nothing against fixing the trics a bit, I did say they over powered, my biggest hit with them is 265,000 and that was 3 of them hitting with a range of 230k to the 265k...., but why they over powered? CAUSE OF THE CRIT BUG! So fix the bug may be a good point to start with, see what difference that fixing a BUG makes. IF THEN IT NEEDS MORE, ok tweak!
BUT, what I want is people to fix BUGS and BROKEN things FIRST!
Not run around wiping the tears of eyes of people who cannot handle something being able to kill them. You gonna get killed in PvP and PvE, ****e happens, deal with it, let the game bugs get fixed then tidy up the extras later, not create more work that simply will just get changed again next time ppl start crying
Seperate the Trics from the chain crit effect. A single Tric mine, even buffed, is manageable and one can defend against it. Several all critting at once, not so much.
ahh I see, the real problem is not about the mines, it about some weapon able to beat you with all your fancy gadgets..... I fully understand now, it got nothing to do with the crit bug, or tactics or anything else, it about you got a fancy ship and it got fancy gadgetry and all these goodies on board to save your bacon and you pissed cause someone has a gadget that beats it....
I got nothing against fixing the trics a bit, I did say they over powered, my biggest hit with them is 265,000 and that was 3 of them hitting with a range of 230k to the 265k...., but why they over powered? CAUSE OF THE CRIT BUG! So fix the bug may be a good point to start with, see what difference that fixing a BUG makes. IF THEN IT NEEDS MORE, ok tweak!
BUT, what I want is people to fix BUGS and BROKEN things FIRST!
Not run around wiping the tears of eyes of people who cannot handle something being able to kill them. You gonna get killed in PvP and PvE, ****e happens, deal with it, let the game bugs get fixed then tidy up the extras later, not create more work that simply will just get changed again next time ppl start crying
Please try not to overreact. I would say that nearly everyone here is stating that we want the crit all bug to be fixed first. However, borticus stated that the fix in such a case may take some time. Based on your earlier statements, it appeared to some that you were defending the use of something bugged. Now that we understand each other a bit better.....
In essence, we are getting killed because of something that is broken, and that is why we want it fixed.
On the other hand, some of your argument is a bit off. How hard is it to stay out of somewhere someone has flown through? Very. Bear in mind that tric mines on their own have MES, which makes them difficult to detect at range if you have low aux. Furthermore, they stay in that location for at least 30s, if I am not mistaken. Keeping track of something nearly invisible for that length of time is pretty near impossible. If you are capable of doing that, well, props to you, but asking such a thing of the players in a generally spam filled arena is a little tough.
Finally, if you can think of a reliable way to beat someone using trics combined with holds, scrambles and placates, be my guest and share it. Otherwise, I'm sure you wouldn't mind if all the PvPers, including the major fleets, just started running tric squads? Given that you seem to be fine with them as it is, aside from the crit bug.....I'm sure you won't complain, right? Just saying.....
This is my last post here, as always ppl loose sight of the real issue and frankly I think I just wasting my time and it is why I never post in forums anymore....
Firstly, I will tell you something about myself, just so u understand a lot more about my play style and how little your "tricobalt issue" means to me.
First, I have absolutely ZERO projectile skills in EITHER of my toons. I am an energy weapon man from day one and will continue to be so, I do not say I dont carry torps or mines, I saying they are a secondary concern, if you cannot kill with energy weapons then you got a real serious issue and sadly need to rethink your build to improve on your DPS.
Torps and mines should be the Icing on teh Cake, NOT your main punch!
===
Why did I start carrying Trics would be the next thing I wish to explain, well, as usual in an STF where someone who's IQ was not high enough to read and follow instructions, someone screwed up and as usual looked like it would cost us the optional.
Until one fulla dropped his lil pearls on the transformer and BOOM! Saved the optional. I spoke to that person that day after the match (looked through combat log to find out who was teh killa) and he was friendly and informative and told me why he carried those beasties. Since that day, I have SAVED many an optional because of those mines.
Dumb Asses no longer reign... YAY!
So, this change means one thing to me, Dumb asses will once again have the power to upset those who work hard to learn to do it right........
===
Now, back to my REAL ISSUE! Broken things, bugs, those painful things that RUIN a game cause they DONT WORK! my real issue is FIX THEM FIRST! instead of catering to CRY BABIES! Is not broken things a priority?
I did say Trics were too much, I did say WHY they were too much, a BUG! So, it too hard for the programmers to fix, so instead of fixing an issue, they "band aid" something that needs "Stitches" by changing something that is not broken, wow that is intelligent.
What does this say about the people working on the game???? Not a hell of a lot......
====
Care to make the game work well??? Or just care to shut people up???
Or is it, they just care about getting people to spend money to get Zen and fill these ridiculous dilithium needs. Making it more and more boring for those who wont waste their money by getting you to be even more repetitive just to grind S h i t e out...
====
My issue has never been the trics, it never been the people using them as they are, my issue is as usual bugs are left to sideline while changes are made instead to make the bugs "not important" anymore....
I think managing the design of this game and how things progress needs to be revamped more than the trics to be honest.
Yes I probably pissed a lot of people off by saying this, yes I usually TRIBBLE people off by speaking my mind and I DONT CARE. I care that a game I found that I like, (one that I have put $800US since I started playing 6 months ago into buying Zen cause I liked it and wanted to support it and my fleet mates) is going even more to the DOGS.
If my money means nothing to the game designers, fine, I wont put any more into it, consider my donations at an end, maybe more people should speak up and do the same thing and improve on whole?
Maybe people should stop biatching and moaning about things that CAN be dealt with by using your brains (And yes, tactics ARE there to bypass the tric threat if you use your BRAINS and no I dont give away things for free so dont ask....) and let the BUGS GET FIXED FIRST.
As it is, I over this game, I will take my money and donate to a game that actually works on fixing things and not catering to those who cannot handle a little challenge until the bugs are fixed.... STO will just get relegated to the "when I feel like playing" category....
Comments
its easier to change their mind about a time then about the ability all together.
Do you even Science Bro?
Would 50 points damage even make a dent in one and cook it off?
R.I.P
Maybe 1 or 2 HP. Even with my sci ship's weapons bottomed out at 5 power w/ FAW up I've never had any trouble killing a mine the moment I hit it.
Then I would have to agree with the others.. A automated PDS system would render mines useless if they are so squishy.
If a PDS is implemented then mines may need thier HP raised so they can't be so easily one-shot. Two shot would work for me.
R.I.P
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
The real solution is to have different rule sets for PvE and PvP. I have an idear for a new Hardcore PvP mode which could help this problem by restricting what new equipment and skills are useable in PvP.
See PvP Hardcore Mode - An Idea.
Everyone may hate it, but it would solve a lot of problems and stop the developers having to nerf every good new toy.
It's already easy to complete PvE content without any of the new toys.
Oh and not forgetting, new nerfs!
Probably something along those lines to account for them requiring higher-level BOff slots to make use of patterns, while keeping them from being guaranteed ship-gibbers. The PDS system is not a good choice for AI battleships as it would likely render all mine fields, even the useful but not particularly damaging chroniton mines, worthless in the vicinity of battleships.
[Edit]
Got ninja'd by a sidetrack of conversation. Splitting PvE and PvP development would be an extremely costly and labor intensive undertaking, one unlikely to ever occur for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is that it further polarizes the the player base between content and requires two completely different skill sets and knowledge bases on the part of the game's players.
[long winded rambling JM2c]
Much of the problems in the game stemming from "don't nerf it just because it broke PvP" and "those dirty PvE'ers don't understand how the real game works" comes from an underlying fault in the game's encounter design to utilize the mechanics that are present in the game to its fullest extent, both at the "mob" level and the "mission structure" level. This is most evident in the fact that player ships and mob ships, while having some overlap in skill and role, operate in vastly different paradigms. Mob ships, particularly in STF's but also in other group content, revolve around doling out large hits of damage, weight of numbers, and grossly disproportional (though finite) hit points to maintain a sense of threat and durability. Player ships, by comparison, rely on carefully applied heals and damage resistance to keep damage at sustainable levels, essentially maintaining themselves, while searching out or making an opportunity to deliver a swift and decisive blow for a kill. Many of those abilities, however, end up wasted on mobs that are swinging between instantly killing you regardless of your defenses or not doing enough damage to threaten you in the first place. Of course, having the mobs work like players play would have its own problems as well, especially in pickup games where you can't rely on there being a class/player that can create an opening to quickly kill the mob, and exacerbated by being under a time limit and facing enemies with weight of numbers.
Short form? The game's encounter design should have been built around, and driven by, its mechanics as they are used in all parts of the game to eliminate, or at least greatly diminish, the divergent development of what are, essentially, two different "languages' within the player base. To make such a correction at this time would be a massive, and likely extremely expensive, endeavor, one very unlikely to occur. So, we end up with gear and abilities which has to be designed to plug in and make sense and be appealing to two different player groups, usually, and the detriment of one or the other... at least for awhile.
[/long winded rambling JM2c]
Honestly friend, use whatever the hell you feel like. No one has the right to stop you and there's no form of Internet police that'll kick your door down for using exploits or broken game mechanics in STO. As far as I know it's harder to get a reprimand from GMs than it is to get fired from SNL for being unfunny, so even if you load up on Embassy DOffs you're in safe hands anyway.
That said, please don't try and justify your decision by claiming that everyone uses them so your hand was forced. Some of us who refuse to touch the stuff don't appreciate baseless accusations.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Those who do are ridiculed by OPvPers.
I disagree.
I think the same rules for both works fine and its peoples expectations of how things should work that often need the adjustment.
Some things are simply broken regardless of wether its for PvP or PvE.
Though I do like your ideas for canonical PvP.
R.I.P
Ensign, Lt, LtCmdr instead of Lt, LtCmdr, Cmdr
Matthew@Matthew486DX -> Eng Lvl 60
FAW/Tank: Tactical Oddyessy T5-U, Tank/Heal Science Oddyessy T5-U, DPS Cruiser: A2B Battlecruiser T5-U, DPS/Debuff Tholian Recluse T5-U
Fleet Admiral: Angry Tribbles
Obviously it was regarded as overpowered and had to be reduced. Because people abused it in PvP and PvE.
But the thing I don't understand is, in classic Cryptic fashion, you alter something and the changes become overpowered and you nerf again. So why don't you just go back to the previous version?
For example, before you allowed multiple Tricobalts to spawn when using Mine Patterns, it was a singular and powerful explosive. Then you changed it to be included with the Mine Patterns, and this happened, then forced to nerf it because people abused it. So why not just revert it to the previous version where it was a singular powerful explosive? That way people would go back to normally using Photon and Quantum mines?
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Actually, with the reduced damage variance, we should see far less super-crits. That is a good thing.
When I was testing it on tribble, I didn't see as many Crits, this is true. But then again I was testing with only 1 Tric Mine.. No Cool down Doffs. And my mine was CrtDx3 I saw maybe 1 Super Crit vs a Borg Cube compared to Aproximately 15 or so Non Crits*.
*It's an approximation because I didn't actually keep count.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
I suppose that's true, though honestly there are so many oodles of sources of crit these days that it'll only step down from "nightmarish" to "a pain in the TRIBBLE".
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
1) Oh i've tested the mines, not to my playstyle i'm afraid, the DPB3 isn't worth as much to me as the CRF3, or any attack pattern 3 skill. I don't use tric mines, so i don't need these "things to play a game"
2) I never said anything about forcing players into a "faw spam escort or a cruser sci ship" , and it isn't what i intended. These abillities are very useful, an escort (lets say defiant, i fly one), can out run these mines, if i get tractor, i can use FAW, Scatter Volley, Torp spread 3, Tractor beam repulsors (which also enable a very nice tactic of keeping your cannons on the target etc etc).
3) Tric mines have a shared cooldown of 30 seconds, activation time of 5 seconds, and depending on distance, 5 seconds. So within 30 seconds, you can get an area of effect off cooldown, and if you are watching your opponent, can time the skill correctly.
4) If you get hit by AMS/Scramble sensors etc, you can use Science team (useful if you are in a Sci, or good for tanks to clear subnukes) to get rid of the effect, for escorts, i suggest evasive, or attack pattern omega, or fulll power to engines, (you should be changing your power setting regularly in pvp to accomadate the situation).
5) I don't consider myself a noob... and I honestly hope, after reading all of that above, you'll realise i am not one. I don't call myself the best of the best, in fact I'm above average at best apparently.
Are you telling me that when the Defiant came up against the Breen Energy Dampening weapon Sisko and co stood back and started shouting OP and nerf please?
The only problem with these mines i can see are the link crits, they're not "working as intended".
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
The fact that an AI enemy can shoot down my tricolbalts is a key thing here. Most players I have played against in PvP can shoot down my tricobalts, I mean it is NOT hard, in fact they about a fluke hit more than a strategic weapon, and when they do get through and do miss hitting shields and do get a good roll of dice, yes they are good.... it is a RARE occasion unless the opposition is deaf dumb AND blind!
So why is it, that people who cannot handle these easy to kill weapons all cry and get things changed, yet all the bugs that NEED fixing FIRST get ignored and sidelined.
How about the fact that the Alert in Tau Dewa sector never seems to be there for example. This is annoying, go into alert... nothing there, hmmm how about fixing that first.
Or how about cubes that just after you drop mines, suddenly jumping out of range of your mines.... I mean the cubes skipping around the STF when in combat is a good defense against my mines, in fact most times my mines end up sitting in space doing nothing though I dropped them at 0.0km ranges and suddenly they over 4km away...
In fact, I talk to people who have no end of troubles in this game, fix their issues THEN make changes!
I mean this is ridiculous, Cryptic now TRIBBLE us for massive amounts of dilithium for reputation things, star bases go on hold, they demand us to repeat boring missions again and again for the reputation marks and dilithium and all the rest....
Or get you to spend real money yet when it comes down to it, they don't seem to care that they making the game a boring grinding motion that just makes your teeth hurt and many ppl I know already dumped the game for War of Tanks or something that they trying to get me into instead.
You killing the game, try fixing things, making it fun again, and for all the cry babies, was making the mine changes REALLY that important? Could you not learn to shoot them down for a while like every one else and let the things that are broken get fixed first??
Get priorities straight, fix the mine's critical bugs sure. It not working correctly...
But, here is a suggestion... how about fixing things that dont work at all first please,
If I can learn to shoot mines, and by the way... I never get hit by them!!!!
I am sure these complainers can do that too for a while it may just improve their playing abilities....
..... or..... is this just too hard a skill for some people to learn???
You have some good points there, and while nobody here isn't saying there are other things that DO need to get fixed, even if they were fixed (and might take longer to fix than these), tric mines would still BE there, still super-powerful and still causing problems all across the game, as compared with only single, individual problems in areas of the game.
In PvE, these are bad because they allow people (particularly in STFs) to just out-damage something, and skipping entire portions of a mission in a way the devs never intended. Especially if buffed by tacs and/or chain critting.
In both PvE and PvP, yes, they can be shot down, I don't deny it. But even in PvP, shooting them down often times isn't enough. There are ways and counters to everything.
Anything from the cheapness of an AMS, to the borderline-OP usage of the Tipler Console on the Temporal Sci vessel which freezes your opponent preventing them from making ANY kind of retaliation. Your opponent can hide them in the visual effect of another power like Scramble Sensors or EWP.
Heck, a simple yet effective solution is just overwhelm your opponent with mines and other things they can target, just preventing them from shooting it ALL down with an ability.
Those who use tric mines like this on a consistant basis, in PvE or PvP, know all this, and use it to the best of their ability. They will shut something or someone down, prevent counters (or make their opponent waste them), hold them in place somehow, and then kill them anyways.
And in case of emergency, Point defense is fine... but ok, you fix the mines, go ahead, but how long before they start moaning about king hitting torpedos? These new plasma torps I using do more for me than my trics, they hit more often and crit beautifully and I have no need to put myself in harms way to get them to target.
And the string of them I get as well, WOW more effective than my Trics, I get more of them, I can keep shields down while they hit cause of rapid fire and all the wonderful bridge officer skills I have.
I mean, where does it end? how long before someone starts moaning about another feature? Why cannot people learn to OUT THINK a situation. I do, people I play against sure as hell do, they kill me all the time in PvP and my Trics dont kill them... funny that.... they play with skill and brains, they use tactics and dont let themselves fall for a pissy lil mine attack...
This is what I mean, fix broken stuff, for the rest, use your brains maybe? It is not hard to think about a situation and NOT fall for it again. I mean, some of these federation ships have so many fancy gadgets that my Fleet Tor'Kat does not even come close, my ONLY saving grace is my firepower of my cannons and quick thinking, NOT my trics...
LOL at "pissy" attack. An attack that necessitates an Intrepid Ablative Armor/PH/HE to survive just one DPB Tric mine hit is a pissy attack?
Never mind that the people deploying them aren't going to stand around just wait for you to run over them, like mimey2 alluded to in the post you mostly ignored, they will use other abilities to facilitate their success in deploying and hitting targets with them.
No one worth their salt has their Trics on autofire and just spams them aimlessly. The real problem comes from the players who use all of the tools at their disposal to make Tric crits a consistent possibility, not the noobs who just autofire hoping to get one kill.
I said USE YOUR BRAINS, there will ALWAYS be tools at their disposal, new science vessels with their "backstep" Jamming sensors, even the simple warp plasma then drop mines. People will always think of combinations to make a tool do the best by them, why?
They use their BRAINS to get the BEST out of a TOOL!
You are complaining because they taking a feature and using it to the BEST possible ability. Every time they have something kool come out, people WILL USE IT! You might as well dumb down all the fancy gadgets and make it back to shields, energy weapons and piloting skill if you are going to complain about the gadgets, or maybe stick to tiddlywinks instead?
As for the mines, if you cannot use your brains and keep away from a player using them, avoiding the areas he flown through, staying out of possible dangerous locations, try to out think an opponent, then maybe Normal STFs you should play.
(Submariners and destroyers in the wars is a good thing for you to think about, they had a situation that was far more difficult and they made the situation work for them best as they could! Maybe read up on history to learn how they used brains to avoid getting killed, they could not see their target, they had to OUT THINK their opponents.)
If you WANT a challenge and WANT it made HARD and WANT people to bring their A-GAME so you can have a REAL BATTLE of the WITS, then stop your bloody moaning and learn to think!
This is what PvP is about!!! Pushing to the limit and finding a real challenge to beat instead of the boring grinds that the game has become, PvP is the only challenge left and you want to DUMB IT DOWN????.
I am NOT ignoring what these other people are saying, I heard all they said. But I am telling you to think not moan.
There will always be a fancy gadget, the part that makes it fun is trying to figure out ways to BEAT THAT GADGET!
Or do you just want a game that is easy for you and you dont have to think?
They're out of balance with what other weapons can do damage wise given how easy is it to slot one in the back of your ship. And with the space given by AP Doffs, you can even fit a high level DPB pattern on your Escort without losing much damage from your cannons.
And like I mentioned above, only one combo can resist one DPB Tric mine that has been Tac buffed:
A PH/HE buffed Intrepid with Ablative Armor activated.
And only one mine at that, the rest will still kill you after you've been stunned out of your armor. :P
I got nothing against fixing the trics a bit, I did say they over powered, my biggest hit with them is 265,000 and that was 3 of them hitting with a range of 230k to the 265k...., but why they over powered? CAUSE OF THE CRIT BUG! So fix the bug may be a good point to start with, see what difference that fixing a BUG makes. IF THEN IT NEEDS MORE, ok tweak!
BUT, what I want is people to fix BUGS and BROKEN things FIRST!
Not run around wiping the tears of eyes of people who cannot handle something being able to kill them. You gonna get killed in PvP and PvE, ****e happens, deal with it, let the game bugs get fixed then tidy up the extras later, not create more work that simply will just get changed again next time ppl start crying
R.I.P
Please try not to overreact. I would say that nearly everyone here is stating that we want the crit all bug to be fixed first. However, borticus stated that the fix in such a case may take some time. Based on your earlier statements, it appeared to some that you were defending the use of something bugged. Now that we understand each other a bit better.....
In essence, we are getting killed because of something that is broken, and that is why we want it fixed.
On the other hand, some of your argument is a bit off. How hard is it to stay out of somewhere someone has flown through? Very. Bear in mind that tric mines on their own have MES, which makes them difficult to detect at range if you have low aux. Furthermore, they stay in that location for at least 30s, if I am not mistaken. Keeping track of something nearly invisible for that length of time is pretty near impossible. If you are capable of doing that, well, props to you, but asking such a thing of the players in a generally spam filled arena is a little tough.
Finally, if you can think of a reliable way to beat someone using trics combined with holds, scrambles and placates, be my guest and share it. Otherwise, I'm sure you wouldn't mind if all the PvPers, including the major fleets, just started running tric squads? Given that you seem to be fine with them as it is, aside from the crit bug.....I'm sure you won't complain, right? Just saying.....
Firstly, I will tell you something about myself, just so u understand a lot more about my play style and how little your "tricobalt issue" means to me.
First, I have absolutely ZERO projectile skills in EITHER of my toons. I am an energy weapon man from day one and will continue to be so, I do not say I dont carry torps or mines, I saying they are a secondary concern, if you cannot kill with energy weapons then you got a real serious issue and sadly need to rethink your build to improve on your DPS.
Torps and mines should be the Icing on teh Cake, NOT your main punch!
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Why did I start carrying Trics would be the next thing I wish to explain, well, as usual in an STF where someone who's IQ was not high enough to read and follow instructions, someone screwed up and as usual looked like it would cost us the optional.
Until one fulla dropped his lil pearls on the transformer and BOOM! Saved the optional. I spoke to that person that day after the match (looked through combat log to find out who was teh killa) and he was friendly and informative and told me why he carried those beasties. Since that day, I have SAVED many an optional because of those mines.
Dumb Asses no longer reign... YAY!
So, this change means one thing to me, Dumb asses will once again have the power to upset those who work hard to learn to do it right........
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Now, back to my REAL ISSUE! Broken things, bugs, those painful things that RUIN a game cause they DONT WORK! my real issue is FIX THEM FIRST! instead of catering to CRY BABIES! Is not broken things a priority?
I did say Trics were too much, I did say WHY they were too much, a BUG! So, it too hard for the programmers to fix, so instead of fixing an issue, they "band aid" something that needs "Stitches" by changing something that is not broken, wow that is intelligent.
What does this say about the people working on the game???? Not a hell of a lot......
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Care to make the game work well??? Or just care to shut people up???
Or is it, they just care about getting people to spend money to get Zen and fill these ridiculous dilithium needs. Making it more and more boring for those who wont waste their money by getting you to be even more repetitive just to grind S h i t e out...
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My issue has never been the trics, it never been the people using them as they are, my issue is as usual bugs are left to sideline while changes are made instead to make the bugs "not important" anymore....
I think managing the design of this game and how things progress needs to be revamped more than the trics to be honest.
Yes I probably pissed a lot of people off by saying this, yes I usually TRIBBLE people off by speaking my mind and I DONT CARE. I care that a game I found that I like, (one that I have put $800US since I started playing 6 months ago into buying Zen cause I liked it and wanted to support it and my fleet mates) is going even more to the DOGS.
If my money means nothing to the game designers, fine, I wont put any more into it, consider my donations at an end, maybe more people should speak up and do the same thing and improve on whole?
Maybe people should stop biatching and moaning about things that CAN be dealt with by using your brains (And yes, tactics ARE there to bypass the tric threat if you use your BRAINS and no I dont give away things for free so dont ask....) and let the BUGS GET FIXED FIRST.
As it is, I over this game, I will take my money and donate to a game that actually works on fixing things and not catering to those who cannot handle a little challenge until the bugs are fixed.... STO will just get relegated to the "when I feel like playing" category....