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Tricobalt Mines : Upcoming Changes
borticuscryptic
Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
We've been watching and listening to the large amount of feedback that's come from the PvP community, and elsewhere, in regards to the astonishing amount of damage Tricobalt Mines have become capable of dealing since the Mine Revamp, and the recent Mine Console bug fix. For the most part, we held off on making any further changes to their functionality until more feedback and hands-on testing occurred, due to the fact that these weapons remain susceptible to counter, and come with a very steep cost of opportunity to be used effectively:
- They can be shot down (even accidentally).
- They can be outran.
- They have very lengthy cooldowns.
- Their damage is significantly reduced by shields, and an unshielded hit is statistically unlikely.
- Utilizing a Dispersal Pattern requires up to a Commander-rank Boff Slot.
- Getting the most out of them requires sacrificing Console and/or Doff slots to a dedicated build.
Despite these drawbacks, the amount of feedback we receive on a daily basis has kept the issue on our radar, and under tight scrutiny. After a recent series of internal tests, we've decided that a few changes are warranted, and will soon be carried out:
The following changes will appear in a future patch to Tribble (probably in early January):
- The damage dealt by Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced by 10% across-the-board.
- The damage variance of Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced from 20% to 5% (this will lead to more predictable damage ? fewer highs, fewer lows)
- The stealth value on Tricobalt Mines has been reduced by approximately 25% (this should allow them to be seen from about 1k further than previous).
We're also still in the process of considering some, or possibly all, of the following changes:
- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)
- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)
We're particularly interested in hearing feedback on these last two options, as we're still deliberating whether or not they are a necessity, or even a good idea.
After more testing and feedback, we may decide that the overall damage dealt by Tricobalts needs to be reduced even further at some point in the future. If it comes to that, we will also re-evaluate the cooldowns associated with these weapons to ensure that their overall combat viability remains strong.
- They can be shot down (even accidentally).
- They can be outran.
- They have very lengthy cooldowns.
- Their damage is significantly reduced by shields, and an unshielded hit is statistically unlikely.
- Utilizing a Dispersal Pattern requires up to a Commander-rank Boff Slot.
- Getting the most out of them requires sacrificing Console and/or Doff slots to a dedicated build.
Despite these drawbacks, the amount of feedback we receive on a daily basis has kept the issue on our radar, and under tight scrutiny. After a recent series of internal tests, we've decided that a few changes are warranted, and will soon be carried out:
The following changes will appear in a future patch to Tribble (probably in early January):
- The damage dealt by Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced by 10% across-the-board.
- The damage variance of Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced from 20% to 5% (this will lead to more predictable damage ? fewer highs, fewer lows)
- The stealth value on Tricobalt Mines has been reduced by approximately 25% (this should allow them to be seen from about 1k further than previous).
We're also still in the process of considering some, or possibly all, of the following changes:
- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)
- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)
We're particularly interested in hearing feedback on these last two options, as we're still deliberating whether or not they are a necessity, or even a good idea.
After more testing and feedback, we may decide that the overall damage dealt by Tricobalts needs to be reduced even further at some point in the future. If it comes to that, we will also re-evaluate the cooldowns associated with these weapons to ensure that their overall combat viability remains strong.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Post edited by borticuscryptic on
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Does this behaviour still exist?
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
I think that adjusting mine patterns, combined with the first mentioned changes sounds promising. Let's test and see.
However, Tac cpt skills might still push them to unreasonable amount when in a time-ship. Time ship + specced tric mines = is pretty unfun combo on the receiving end, since those counters.....where are they again, right I'm stunned they don't apply
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
This behavior does exist, and it a concern that's not being ignored. To be clear, it's existed since Launch, but has been amplified by Tricobalt Mines due to the massive amount of damage they can deal on a crit.
We've requested this to become a high priority for our Software team. But to be honest, there are a vast number of issues that are "high priority" on their list right now. As such, we (the Systems Team) can't guarantee any sort of timeline on a fix.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
yeah, and its not just tric mines that are the problem with that.
those transphasic cluster mine torps are just as bad as trics when they crit.
otherwise, the changes look very promising.
just please make sure when you mention the auto defense battery on the npc's that this wasnt the pvp communites evil ploy to inhibit their "fun".
id like to avoid animosity from them.
thanks
whens this gonna appear on tribble?
if this kills that build then maybe the build was a little to reliant on "one shot trics"
Do you even Science Bro?
And from what you said, you're patching over the real issue with this rather than fixing it. What's to stop someone saying Tricobalts don't do it for me anymore, and finding the next best thing and having the problem all over again. Or better yet, will this change you are implementing be reversed when, or if, the problem with all mines critting is fixed?
Nouveau riche LTS member
I know my reply will be hardly attacked but IDK,
One crits all crits issue, dunno, DHC`s are also critting like crazy, just take a not how many times escort will "cloak" while firing on you :rolleyes:
Cheers
The idea of point-defense for dreadnoughts is a good one, but I fear it is too much for battleships. Dreadnoughts are only encountered as special enemies or by very large groups, and being extra tough makes sense. But if I couldn't use my high-yield plasmas against any battleship in the game, it would be rather inconvenient.
Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
lol. Mines have taken people out through shields.
Did npc complaint too?
But yeah, like mancom said, I was under impression that the big attraction towards tric mines was that if one rolled a crit, every mine from dispersal critted as well. Was this looked at in your test?
Elite Defense Stovokor
The proposed changes sound like a good start but please bear in mind that this isn't remotely true. There are a number of build options we can detail which almost guarantee an unshielded hit, and more to the point, the burst of a DPB3 tric mine cluster overwhelms shields. When clusters strike for six-digit figures it's nigh impossible within the confines of the game to reduce that damage to a survivable amount, bar the few exceptions like the Intrepid toy console.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
However I think almost all of us will admit they are broken.
I was hoping we could start a discussion as to how to fix them here.
I have a bunch of ideas of ways to correct the issue... and I would love to hear what other people think on them... if we are lucky perhaps cryptic will even listen and implement something to make them good but not the cheese ball weapon they have become.
So first let me list what I hear people list as issues with them
1) Base dmg... I think most people feel there dmg is to high, although not all and some see th issue as pattern based.
2) dispersal patterns... again I think most people feel being able to spit 4 out is crazy considering issue 1
3) Crit linking.... Some people feel the way they crit where one crits they all crit is an issue
4) MES values... some people feel they don't deserve to have a high mes value or even have one at all considering how powerful they are.
5) Aoe that works different from tricobalt torps... there is no splash dmg from trics and therefor no deterent to dropping them point blank in a mess of spam. Or using stupid things like the Timeship drop.
If anyone else has other issues with them post em... but that is what I have heard myself.
Here is how I see it...
1) I think the base dmg is a tad high... however if they where Max one out I wouldn't have any issue with it.
2) dispersal patterns... this I think needs to change and I have a few ideas.
3) crit linking... myself I see no issue with it... I also know that the system treats patterns and dots as one weapon pull... and I am fine with the way it works... I don't think any weapon that can crit to 300k+ deserves this bonus... but myself I think the issue is that a single weapon can crit for 300k+ not the linking
4) mes values... I am torn on this one... I think all mines need mes to be viable... but ya not being able to clear tric mines with scatter or fire at will is an issue considering they can insta wipe a team.
My thoughts on Solutions....
1) Reduce Base dmg by 20% or so... perhaps this is all that is needed... as a base dmg reduction should reduce the super high crits. (easiest for cryptic to implement... not sure if it would really solve the issue... but I'll throw it out there first)
2) Change Dispersal pattern use. Options include;
- Simply remove the option to disperal pattern tric mines
- Change the way the dispersal works... this is one of my fav ideas. We know cryptic has the tech to change weapon cool downs based on HY use... so the tech should be applicable... What if Dispersal patterns on tric mines reduced there cool down... like the time torp cool down is increased when you HY them. Just in reverse... Working like this;
- No Dispersal 30s cool down
- Dispersal 1 10s cool down reduction
- dispersal 2 15s cool down reduction
- Dispersal 3 20s cool down reduction
This would mean you could kick out multiples over a set time frame... and get a drop rate with one mine close to that of someone with 2 and no patterns. The mines could perhaps even get a 100% chance to proc a rift at that point, and have higher dmg just like a Torp hy... as long as its one out I don't think it would be a major issue and it would still have massive potential if you can land it.
3) MES adjustments. Perhaps they need a lower mes value so they can be cleared more easily.
4) Some type of Crit limiter... perhaps a Negative CrtD value by default on Tric mines.
Anyway those are a few ideas to help bring these mines into line... Myself I like the idea of changes to the dispersal patterns as I think that is the real issue with them.
my shield strip build is a good example of removing them shields.... sure it doesnt work on everyone, but when it works... it works to devastating effect.
Do you even Science Bro?
Do you even Science Bro?
however i understand that many of these changes are occurring because the minority (PvP) want balance...but at the same time I've seen players that can tric the heck of out stfs like nothing, blowing right through the regens of the transformers in The Conduit..so yeah this change is helpful.
PvE related, but nonetheless:
Point defense as described above is going to TRIBBLE over small craft related abilities (fighters, boarding party etc) as well. Either make it a mine-only counter, or don't put it in at all.
I don't think this is a negative behavious... and honestly don't want to see this changed... for a few reasons.
1) I think its fine as is... when you HY or Spread something it is counting as one pull for procs yes... so why not crits as well... I don't think this is an issue as long as crits are not mega sized.
2) From what I understand of the engine if you guys fix this... we are likely to see future bugs where Chance to proc bonuses are likely to get chances on every single dot... and every single hit of say a spread torp ect. Frankly the way it works is fine... please don't intro this possible can of worms.
I`ve seen that too, no doubt they can one shot ships, but mostly escorts,, cruisers, and carriers, not that easy (some times, i would say in about 10% more or less). Also i want to point out that i`m not supporting tricobalt bombing, and that this was just testing that i made with my 2 SCI toons. And if i see any tricobalt Kirk i`ll hunt him down like crazy. I ussualy use transp. mines for sci, which is more annoying IMO :P
I think an anti-mine point defense system on cruisers in general is not a bad idea. It would give them a limited ability to protect teammates at close range without necessarily making mines useless and help with the defensive role.
But there are already consoles that act as point defense against HYT and I don't think giving any ship an auto-nuke against torps is a good idea.
Maybe a better idea is an Electronic Warfare point defense that can be activated to temporarily make a ship invisible to torpedoes and mines, or drop a decoy or chaff, or something like that. You're not actually destroying the mine or torpedo, you're just forcing it to disregard a target and to focus on a different one.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
On second thought, knowing how torps work, they shouldn't be subject to this kind of defense. I'm pretty sure the game engine isn't designed to make torpedoes lock on to new targets once they've been launched.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
1) The chain crit being the main issue. I can't think of a tric thread where it hasn't been brought up. Sure, folks always argue X, Y, and Z - that it's this, that, etc - but chain crit is always brought up. As mai said, it's not just with trics - it's noticeable with them more than many things, but c'mon have you ever had a Breen Cluster and a DPB3 Trans where both crit? It's a beautiful thing to watch...lol...bad, but beautiful to watch. It can happen with other things as well. Given the increase in crit chance available (spec for it, Borg, Tachyo, 0Point, Romulan Passive, going CrtH on the weapons, etc) - chain crits are rough. Not a suggestion to nerf CrtH in the least, mind you - just there's a problem with chain crits and it's going to become more apparent as time goes on.
2) The PDS thing... yeah, um... the carrier thing mentioned came to mind first. Perhaps a PDS with low Acc and the Mines being given low Def. So the PDS would be more likely to hit the Mines rather than pets, eh? With THY or other targetable devices, the various items could have various Def stats - cause there's even the Def bonus with the Rom set, no? In this way, the PDS (with some sort of CD) would have a decent chance of taking out Mines at a certain point but it wouldn't necessarily slaughter pets during the time period that it's active.
Targetable THY's/Tric Torps/Breen Clusters will track new targets if the original target is destroyed.
Regular torps just fly off or hit the already dead target.
YAY !!!
( I gotta bury mine in a cloud of vented plasma to get NPC's to hit them since they're so slow), PvP isn't an option unless I'm REALLY lucky.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Would it also be possible to have them be "always visible"
(im not going to be able to explain it properly.. but will try)
Some point before/during Season 7, the targeting of small enemies and allies changed, you would have to go into your options to turn them on again, quite a few people dont know this, heck i didnt know how to fix it for a few weeks,
While small/targetable enemies/allies lost their targeting hardpoint/reticle, Tricobalt torpedos remained targetable, i.e. you didnt have to go into your settings to make sure your UI always made sure to point out tric torps, could this also be possible for the Tric mines? For all us slow people who dont think to change the settings? ^^
(side note, for some reason the spell check wont accept reticle, odd..
Problems occured once the current designers thought they knew better than the old ones who originally came up with the system.
And it's only in conjunction with dispersal patterns that tric mines have become a problem. Back when we the game was full of full aux healers with mines in the back, once in a blue moon a tric mine would hit and severely cripple a ship. It was a rare occurrence and nothing that posed a problem for balance.
Did not realize that THY's did that. I knew the Breen Cluster did, but that's normal mine behavior.
Thanks for the tip!
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Did mines even have a reason to exist before the recent changes to Dispersal Patterns?
Chronos did. 100% to slow target with each mine. They were quite the pain.
Do you even Science Bro?