Well, i think this has been all blown out of proportion... again.
Because at the moment it goes like this... sort of... "We could do with players using mines, lets give them a boost shall we?" --Dev "Oh nice mines are now a viable weapon addition to my build! Nice one Cryptic!" ---Playerbase "OMG, Tric mines are killing me! I can't adapt my build to counter them because i don't want to FFS OMFG WTH!!!!"
"Have you seen these tric mines? They need to be nerfed! NERFED I TELL THEEE NERFED!!!" --- Generalisation of the pvp community's response..
Plenty of ways to counter trics, here's a list!
Tractor Beam Repulsors
Fire At Will
Gravity Well
Cannon Scatter Volley
just to name a few.
Oh and some Kinetic Damage Resistance boosting armor might help as well! Polarise hull? Brace for Impact? AuxtoSIF?
Thank me later...
P.s I've done my fair share of fighting b'rels with trics... Fire on my mark, Attack Pattern Beta? Sensor Scan to name a few, you know all these abillities that could help you!
Time to adapt ladies and gentlemen.
Do you honestly think majority of the PvP community is stupid or something? Did you just bring out suggestions from a PvE player's perspective, into a PvP game play forum? Do you think that PvPers did not try what you wrote?
Before you try to answer the rhetorical questions I asked, I think you should step back for a second and think to yourself why there's a nerf in order for these mines.
The primary reason right now, is their spike damage attribute surmounting over 100k, sometimes over 500k max. You need to be mental to say this is not over powered. You can have 5 monotaniums, 9 points in armor reinforcements, doff buffs, heals from your team, and still die from a spread of these mines and only these mines. Know why? Their spike exceeds any known damage dealt by a player in this game, or even NPC. You can deliver a spike higher than Donatra's Scimitar. A dinky polarize, aux to sif, etc ain't gonna do squat.
Granted, you kill the mines before they get you is a viable strategy. On the other hand, I would bet my balls that you have zero experience in dealing with these mines when they're delivered in such a manner, that you literally do not have a chance to destroy them even with your sad grocery list of abilities you mentioned.
Here's some simple math to back it up
Max resists in this game for hull/shield is 75%
Tacticall buffed mine does 60k x 4 dispersal pattern 3 = 240k total
Your hull is 60,000 hit points approximately
75% off 240k is 60k
Your hull 60k damage dealt by mines 60k.
Granted you have shields, but his mines will reload before all your maximum resists are back up. In fact in 30 seconds time. Oh and don't forget his team mates, and his other conventional weapons, as well as assorted abilities to prevent you from destroying his mines. Yeah, the mines already are through your shields at this point and you're stunned from the decompiler effect. This example is on the MOST TANKY ship in the game, the recluse. Btw, that's with ONE dedicated tric/dispersal bomber on the team. Yeah I'll thank you later alright, lol.
If somthing that take a minute to 30 seconds to do damage and can easly be avoided or shot down, it needs to do damage when and if it hits (noticable damage) to justify commiting consoles, skillpoints, and boff abilities
So why aren't my grav wells ticking for ~15k per second? Why doesn't warp plasma, or DEM, or any other ability with a lengthy (actually, lengthier) cooldown?
Quote:
"So why aren't my grav wells ticking for ~15k per second? Why doesn't warp plasma, or DEM, or any other ability with a lengthy (actually, lengthier) cooldown?"
Response:
mines are weapons on a ship, grav well, warp plasma, dem and the other boff abilites are well abilities.
isnt this like comparing apples and oranges?
No, it really isn't. If anything the fact that they're weapons is even worse.
Claiming that a lengthy cooldown and a (technically) destructible projectile should equal insane damage is absurdly specious reasoning because:
1) Tric mines don't really have a lengthy cooldown. 30 seconds is the same as EPtS, Hazards or a TSS, and still shorter than two copies of AP:O;
2) Mines are rear-loaded weapons by nature, meaning people are giving up relatively nothing to use them (there's no ship tric mines don't do well on, even without dispersal patterns);
3) Making the case that CD time should translate to damage in the same way that it does for trics leads to massive questions about everything else in the game's existing balance. Should EPtS resist as hard as a tric cluster hits for? What about MVAM pets, on a four minute cooldown?
your just flyin around in an arena, theres proboly lots of spam, your getting shot at and defending and trying to strike back, suddenly your dead. there wasn't time to employ 1 of 100 counters, you weren't even going slow or stopped. the engine didn't even draw them because theres so much going on. they create deaths at random with next to no effort and theres no way to protect yourself from them. they replace skill with random chance, and exploit the issue of an over abundance of TRIBBLE preventing you from even seeing half of it all. they are something that simply shouldn't exist in game as they are. nerf their damage in half to start with, take away their ability to crit at all too. theres no reason these mines should be 4 times more powerful then the torp anyway, the torp has a much small chance of hitting anything.
Quote:
"Granted, you kill the mines before they get you is a viable strategy."
Response:
This is key, mines are not energy weapons, the primary defence against mines is not "slam face into them and deal with the damage done with boff abilities and consoles"
the primary defense is a change in playstyle
defense range, changing targets on the fly, impulse boosting to avoid, using boff and console abilites to eliminate them before the mines hit
If somthing that take a minute to 30 seconds to do damage and can easly be avoided or shot down, it needs to do damage when and if it hits (noticable damage) to justify commiting consoles, skillpoints, and boff abilities
Ignorance at its best right here. this guy either plays a cloaked bop all the time or does not ever pvp... its like you think they pop out of a ship and turn bright colors with a bright light and the tag on them is a neon green saying shoot me down out of all the other tags spammed on the screen... If they don't fix these all you will see in pvp soon is a faw cruisers and faw sci ship teams with trics on really is that what you all want? ffs what you need to do is get out of the whole cooky cutter tric builds and faw tank cruisers... Also if those defenses you state are working against your tric build you doing it wrong because people can try all they want I will tric hit just about every time.
Can see the team calling now faw faw ok trics out.... ams tractor-beam scramble ams scramble trics out ams scramble he omegaed subnuke ams lol
Response:
then you drop 1 or 2 weapons from the back of your ship and tell me that its nothing! tell that to every beam boat out there to burn 1 or 2 slots in the back, how about to every cannon scort, "hey buddy, why dont you just get rid of 2 of your turrets in the back, you wont miss the damage."
Look, we both know that mines are a bit of a hail mary weapon, EXPECIALLY if thrown on the back of some ship without conosles to support it, and skill points, and strategy to deploy it, and even a bit of luck, WE BOTH KNOW THAT, but for the dps you can gain from other weapons, thrown in the same slot, along with those other weapons reliabity and consistancy can easly OUT WAY the gain of putting a tric mine on IF they nerf down the damage to a point that makes them only viable with FULL support/tactics/skills and even then, if you only can score 1 kill a match after going all out to enhance them, if that happens, no one will use them in pvp period (sure many here would like to see that day come)
No, turrets really don't even come close to the sheer hurt you can put out with just a single tric mine, let alone two. The "consistency" you'd get from turrets means absolutely nothing compared to the strength of one-shot tric patterns, and the timed buffs that make turrets decent also apply to mines, so what's the difference? Burst rules all and burst that you either can't counter or even conceivably prepare for is worth its weight in platinum in any game. If I chose to roll the queues with double tric mines instead of two rear turrets my total damage score would double and possibly triple, thing is I won't because it's unbelievably cheesy and fundamentally stupid.
I chose to respond to this part because it's by far what bugs me the most. You don't need to spec into tric mines at all. Sure they're stronger with a few consoles and some skill points but they're just as broken without them; like I said, there's really no ship that suffers for losing a beam array or a turret and slotting a tric mine. If nothing else, the random disable can completely TRIBBLE someone over and get them killed.
In all likelihood tric mines won't see any of the changes they deserve to. Bort has the completely wrong mindset when it comes to why they're broken and it's been noted before that Cryptic can't change the one-crit-all-crit mechanic and are unlikely to take it out for the sake of one buggy weapon or item.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument to convince me Why the following facts are good for the game....
1)
That base Tricobalt torpedo damage is give or take 12k
and base Tricobalt mine damage is give or take 35k
Depending on your setup the difference is anywhere from 20-35k
I understand these are supposed to be harder to land and all... I really have yet to hear an even semi convincing argument that there is balanced design there.
2)
Tricobalt torpedos have SPLASH dmg... making them extremely hard to land, never mind timing for shield facings, when you can't launch any closer then 2k from target.
Mines have ZERO splash dmg....
Have yet to hear a good argument for that one either.
3)
HY torpedo dmg is approx = to 1 Tricobalt mine with ZERO patterns applied.
Tric mine dmg is litterly 4x greater with Dispersal 3 vs HY 3....
Granted Lt. Cmd Skill VS Commander skill... Still even with Dispersal 3 the dmg is aprox 3x as much with the mines.
I have heard no one come up with a reasonable argument for that much more dmg.
4)
MES values... I won't go to far into this one... I agree that all mines should have mes of some sort... however again I have seen no one argue convincingly that the mes value as it is right now is ok... the counters all the pve kids keep pointing out simply don't work. Gravity well is the only skill I know of that will protect a team... and TBR can be good protection as well... still it will not hit MESed mines... and at 5k its still possible for it to not hit them... which to me is crazy... IMO Tric mines should be visable at 5k out... as it is now even with good spend in sensors 3k is aprox there MES value... and it seems way to good considering.
The trike torp/mine discrepancy also pisses me off something fierce too...
Partly because it's a front-loaded weapon so you're giving up something very valuable to tote it around, but also because it takes a lot of skill to make a trike torp work. Hell if someone gets a facing down and tosses a hearty torp into the breach (unbuffed trike won't kill Fed hull) I say, "Good game", because I got outplayed and I don't consider myself a slouch at the wheel.
Considering that trike torps are slow as hell and also destructible, it just makes no sense whatsoever. Bar extremely seldom megacrits where you'd need all buffs roaring (and you could accomplish the same with BO3 anyway so it's whatevs) a trike torp will never kill you through shields. Not so for the mines.
dhc max crit is around 16k full buffed vs a targets hull no shields with 0 resist bol3 max hit is 53k vs target no shields no resistance quant torp spread max hit 25k no shields tric torp hy max hit 65k no shields no resist those are some strong weps now you take in trics mines vs a target full shields 75 resistance which is max 79k damage so it out spikes any weapon vs a target full resist and the other weps are vs a no shielded target with no shields how is this not op...
the ship I hit was not moving and i did it only 5 times with each wep. so some people may get higher or lower numbers but even still with that they are op... o and another thing i am not specked in kinetic so the quants and tric mine are capable of doing more...!
And don't come here going waa there is a defense because all it takes is one ams tractor subnuke to pretty much nullify any defense you want to use
its nerfs like this that make me glad I'm an outside of the box thinker and have already come up with an alternate build that completely does away with mines on my ships
of course it also does a couple of other things which certain people would call me stupid or a noob for doing.... but hey "Necessity is the mother of invention." if things like this did not happen often people would get complacent in their ship builds...
I have been experimenting with alternate energy types and sets (romulan, omega/borg) to try and come up with an alternate way to get similar results and while I now have several DIFFERENT builds for the same ship it allows me a tactical freedom I have enjoyed for a while and that is the ability to change my build and load out on a whim based on my opponent or objective....
so yeah I don't care if they nerf the mines I just don't really care by the time the nerf hits I will have an alternate build rolling anyway
Major Xi'Zzin I.R.W. Raptor's Claw Storm Eagle Class WarbirdFleet Ha'feh I have never trusted humans, and I never will
its nerfs like this that make me glad I'm an outside of the box thinker and have already come up with an alternate build that completely does away with mines on my ships
of course it also does a couple of other things which certain people would call me stupid or a noob for doing.... but hey "Necessity is the mother of invention." if things like this did not happen often people would get complacent in their ship builds...
I have been experimenting with alternate energy types and sets (romulan, omega/borg) to try and come up with an alternate way to get similar results and while I now have several DIFFERENT builds for the same ship it allows me a tactical freedom I have enjoyed for a while and that is the ability to change my build and load out on a whim based on my opponent or objective....
so yeah I don't care if they nerf the torps I just don't really care by the time the nerf hits I will have an alternate build rolling anyway
they don't need to nerf the torps guess you miss the whole convo going on here...
- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)
There are those of us we don't use tri-cobalts, but do use the other mines. The PDS would make all mines useless.
There are those of us we don't use tri-cobalts, but do use the other mines. The PDS would make all mines useless.
Exactly what my fleet is thinking. I would also like to take the time to complain about my thread being merged with this one. This is NOT just a PvP issue as I primarily use my tricobalt weapons in PvE.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Former/Cryptic Name: Captain_Hans_Langsdorff
Founding member, Special Service Squadron
"Fear God and Dread Nought." First Sea Lord, Adm. Jacky Fisher
If it's a PvP related complaint, then I'll say this:
Anything unfortunate or silly enough to be stationary and under multi-TCM attack deserves to be toast!
If it's a PvE balancing issue then I'll say this:
To become a strategic bomber type ship I need to sacrifice a LtC or Cdr tac boff power, which tend to be lovely things like HY3 or CRF3. A bomber optimized for giant spike damage trades off direct fire, which can be a show-stopper if said bomber finds itself in a map that does not give many opportunities for employment of TCM bombing attacks.
HSE for instance - it's challenging to setup TCM runs on the Borg Queen due to continuous "AA gun fire" from the prey as well as that irritating FAW she keeps as reserve to shoot down targetable munitions.
Also, by itself even with 200-300k theoretical spike damage per bombing attack, TCM bombing by itself is not sufficient to win battles or destroy capital targets. The targets have to be made vulnerable before the bomber can make its run.
And then, the TCMs only find their mark because Transwarp Gates and Borg Cubes do not keep a FAW handy to take out the mines nor do they have point defence for the task.
In war one does not complain that the enemy is OP. He deploys a countermeasure or counter-weapon to outmatch the enemy, making his formerly OP system UP. It's about time things stopped getting nerfed, which in all possibility will start breaking, not fixing things.
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.
And the only real Tricbombers are the ones who use torpedos, not the nubs who only started using Trics after it was found out (by OPvPers) that they crit-chained for insane damage with DPB.
"They have a cave troll!"
It's hardly worth replying to your last paragraph; but I did pull my tricobalt mines out of reserve as soon as I saw the patch notes regarding their ability to work with dispersal patterns, and ultimately built a Defiant around tricobalt weapons (currently carrying two torps and two mines) in order to do "fun" things in STF's after a Squadron mate discovered some interesting things one could do with them. I refuse to be embarrassed by using tricobalt weapons in PvE simply because some folks consider them a "noob" weapon--I put a lot of time and effort into what I did, and I see no reason to be insulted for it. Save that for the exploiters--seems to be a new exploit out every other month, though even I can't blame people for taking advantage of the current state of the game at any given point, though I consider it dishonorable.
Despite the massive strikes possible with maxed-out setups, tricobombers are not a replacement for other setups in PvE or PvP. Just finished ISE with some other folks with 11 mins. on the opt. timer the other day and none of the others seemed to be running trico boats--in fact, things were blowing up so quickly the only things I really got to hit hard with trics were the gateway and tac cube. Those guys weren't PvP'ers, but if anything I see the tric mines as being far less useful in PvP other than for distracting players and getting the occasional lucky hit (while a better player is getting regular kills).
Before I walk away from this thread, which is more nasty than I expected, and to which I came only because my attempt at creating a different thread was folded by Cryptic back into this one, I will respond to your insult by suggesting you graduate from diapers to big boy pull-ups and admit that perhaps PvE players could have discovered something neat before or at least independently of your oh-so-special PvP club.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Former/Cryptic Name: Captain_Hans_Langsdorff
Founding member, Special Service Squadron
"Fear God and Dread Nought." First Sea Lord, Adm. Jacky Fisher
DPB Tric Mines
Aceton Assimilators x2
SNB Doffs
Broken TIV Placate
Syphon Drones
Plasmonic Leech
JHAS w/ any or combination of any of above mentioned
These are all cheese and the current state of competative PvP. The community at large uses them so don't let anyone tell you in game or on the forums what you can and cannot use because they're just being self-serving, as they themselves most likely use any number of this junk.
Till Cryptic actually gives a TRIBBLE about PvP, I say smoke 'em if you got 'em.
I'm not buying into the belief that a single unconsoled, unbuffed by DpB, possibly buffed Tac buffed by happenstance Tricobalt mine is any more lethal or OP than anything else in the game simply due to the fact nobody used them before the Dispersal Pattern changes.
In fact before that change in game mechanincs, many would laugh at you for using even a single Tricobalt on a build.
Fix the One Crits, They all Crit issue. That is when the Tric Mine became an problem.
Plasmonic Leech is not OP, by the way, Its been changed to being only a minor drain if one even blinks at skilling against drain in this game. Which is as it should be.
Before I walk away from this thread, which is more nasty than I expected, and to which I came only because my attempt at creating a different thread was folded by Cryptic back into this one, I will respond to your insult by suggesting you graduate from diapers to big boy pull-ups and admit that perhaps PvE players could have discovered something neat before or at least independently of your oh-so-special PvP club.
PvEers didn't discover anything. It was PvPers (OPvPers) who discovered the viability of Tric mines in PvE. PvEers then copied them, because they are generally fail players in the game so they need the assistance in beating lolPvE content. It's PvPers who actually figure out how things work in this game. PvEers just follow their lead.
lol at learning from PvEers. I suppose if I wanted to learn the finer points of tailor usage.
- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)
Comments
Do you honestly think majority of the PvP community is stupid or something? Did you just bring out suggestions from a PvE player's perspective, into a PvP game play forum? Do you think that PvPers did not try what you wrote?
Before you try to answer the rhetorical questions I asked, I think you should step back for a second and think to yourself why there's a nerf in order for these mines.
The primary reason right now, is their spike damage attribute surmounting over 100k, sometimes over 500k max. You need to be mental to say this is not over powered. You can have 5 monotaniums, 9 points in armor reinforcements, doff buffs, heals from your team, and still die from a spread of these mines and only these mines. Know why? Their spike exceeds any known damage dealt by a player in this game, or even NPC. You can deliver a spike higher than Donatra's Scimitar. A dinky polarize, aux to sif, etc ain't gonna do squat.
Granted, you kill the mines before they get you is a viable strategy. On the other hand, I would bet my balls that you have zero experience in dealing with these mines when they're delivered in such a manner, that you literally do not have a chance to destroy them even with your sad grocery list of abilities you mentioned.
Here's some simple math to back it up
Max resists in this game for hull/shield is 75%
Tacticall buffed mine does 60k x 4 dispersal pattern 3 = 240k total
Your hull is 60,000 hit points approximately
75% off 240k is 60k
Your hull 60k damage dealt by mines 60k.
Granted you have shields, but his mines will reload before all your maximum resists are back up. In fact in 30 seconds time. Oh and don't forget his team mates, and his other conventional weapons, as well as assorted abilities to prevent you from destroying his mines. Yeah, the mines already are through your shields at this point and you're stunned from the decompiler effect. This example is on the MOST TANKY ship in the game, the recluse. Btw, that's with ONE dedicated tric/dispersal bomber on the team. Yeah I'll thank you later alright, lol.
Yeah, go back to blowing up cubes.
FYI, you don't need tric/dispersal to do it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
So why aren't my grav wells ticking for ~15k per second? Why doesn't warp plasma, or DEM, or any other ability with a lengthy (actually, lengthier) cooldown?
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
No, it really isn't. If anything the fact that they're weapons is even worse.
Claiming that a lengthy cooldown and a (technically) destructible projectile should equal insane damage is absurdly specious reasoning because:
1) Tric mines don't really have a lengthy cooldown. 30 seconds is the same as EPtS, Hazards or a TSS, and still shorter than two copies of AP:O;
2) Mines are rear-loaded weapons by nature, meaning people are giving up relatively nothing to use them (there's no ship tric mines don't do well on, even without dispersal patterns);
3) Making the case that CD time should translate to damage in the same way that it does for trics leads to massive questions about everything else in the game's existing balance. Should EPtS resist as hard as a tric cluster hits for? What about MVAM pets, on a four minute cooldown?
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
/thread for the PvEers. :P
your just flyin around in an arena, theres proboly lots of spam, your getting shot at and defending and trying to strike back, suddenly your dead. there wasn't time to employ 1 of 100 counters, you weren't even going slow or stopped. the engine didn't even draw them because theres so much going on. they create deaths at random with next to no effort and theres no way to protect yourself from them. they replace skill with random chance, and exploit the issue of an over abundance of TRIBBLE preventing you from even seeing half of it all. they are something that simply shouldn't exist in game as they are. nerf their damage in half to start with, take away their ability to crit at all too. theres no reason these mines should be 4 times more powerful then the torp anyway, the torp has a much small chance of hitting anything.
You haven't posted one single reason why Trics should stay as they are.
While the rest of us have posted countless reasons, with evidence, why they should be toned down.
I'm not the one trolling here.
Ignorance at its best right here. this guy either plays a cloaked bop all the time or does not ever pvp... its like you think they pop out of a ship and turn bright colors with a bright light and the tag on them is a neon green saying shoot me down out of all the other tags spammed on the screen... If they don't fix these all you will see in pvp soon is a faw cruisers and faw sci ship teams with trics on really is that what you all want? ffs what you need to do is get out of the whole cooky cutter tric builds and faw tank cruisers... Also if those defenses you state are working against your tric build you doing it wrong because people can try all they want I will tric hit just about every time.
Can see the team calling now faw faw ok trics out.... ams tractor-beam scramble ams scramble trics out ams scramble he omegaed subnuke ams lol
You are condescending to people who have already tried figuring out counters with your assertions that deaths to Trics are mostly pilot error.
Even though there are many ways to deliver them are mostly irresistible.
No matter, they will be nerfed and will still be somewhat useful, but not to the extent that they are now.
No, turrets really don't even come close to the sheer hurt you can put out with just a single tric mine, let alone two. The "consistency" you'd get from turrets means absolutely nothing compared to the strength of one-shot tric patterns, and the timed buffs that make turrets decent also apply to mines, so what's the difference? Burst rules all and burst that you either can't counter or even conceivably prepare for is worth its weight in platinum in any game. If I chose to roll the queues with double tric mines instead of two rear turrets my total damage score would double and possibly triple, thing is I won't because it's unbelievably cheesy and fundamentally stupid.
I chose to respond to this part because it's by far what bugs me the most. You don't need to spec into tric mines at all. Sure they're stronger with a few consoles and some skill points but they're just as broken without them; like I said, there's really no ship that suffers for losing a beam array or a turret and slotting a tric mine. If nothing else, the random disable can completely TRIBBLE someone over and get them killed.
In all likelihood tric mines won't see any of the changes they deserve to. Bort has the completely wrong mindset when it comes to why they're broken and it's been noted before that Cryptic can't change the one-crit-all-crit mechanic and are unlikely to take it out for the sake of one buggy weapon or item.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
1)
That base Tricobalt torpedo damage is give or take 12k
and base Tricobalt mine damage is give or take 35k
Depending on your setup the difference is anywhere from 20-35k
I understand these are supposed to be harder to land and all... I really have yet to hear an even semi convincing argument that there is balanced design there.
2)
Tricobalt torpedos have SPLASH dmg... making them extremely hard to land, never mind timing for shield facings, when you can't launch any closer then 2k from target.
Mines have ZERO splash dmg....
Have yet to hear a good argument for that one either.
3)
HY torpedo dmg is approx = to 1 Tricobalt mine with ZERO patterns applied.
Tric mine dmg is litterly 4x greater with Dispersal 3 vs HY 3....
Granted Lt. Cmd Skill VS Commander skill... Still even with Dispersal 3 the dmg is aprox 3x as much with the mines.
I have heard no one come up with a reasonable argument for that much more dmg.
4)
MES values... I won't go to far into this one... I agree that all mines should have mes of some sort... however again I have seen no one argue convincingly that the mes value as it is right now is ok... the counters all the pve kids keep pointing out simply don't work. Gravity well is the only skill I know of that will protect a team... and TBR can be good protection as well... still it will not hit MESed mines... and at 5k its still possible for it to not hit them... which to me is crazy... IMO Tric mines should be visable at 5k out... as it is now even with good spend in sensors 3k is aprox there MES value... and it seems way to good considering.
Partly because it's a front-loaded weapon so you're giving up something very valuable to tote it around, but also because it takes a lot of skill to make a trike torp work. Hell if someone gets a facing down and tosses a hearty torp into the breach (unbuffed trike won't kill Fed hull) I say, "Good game", because I got outplayed and I don't consider myself a slouch at the wheel.
Considering that trike torps are slow as hell and also destructible, it just makes no sense whatsoever. Bar extremely seldom megacrits where you'd need all buffs roaring (and you could accomplish the same with BO3 anyway so it's whatevs) a trike torp will never kill you through shields. Not so for the mines.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
the ship I hit was not moving and i did it only 5 times with each wep. so some people may get higher or lower numbers but even still with that they are op... o and another thing i am not specked in kinetic so the quants and tric mine are capable of doing more...!
And don't come here going waa there is a defense because all it takes is one ams tractor subnuke to pretty much nullify any defense you want to use
of course it also does a couple of other things which certain people would call me stupid or a noob for doing.... but hey "Necessity is the mother of invention." if things like this did not happen often people would get complacent in their ship builds...
I have been experimenting with alternate energy types and sets (romulan, omega/borg) to try and come up with an alternate way to get similar results and while I now have several DIFFERENT builds for the same ship it allows me a tactical freedom I have enjoyed for a while and that is the ability to change my build and load out on a whim based on my opponent or objective....
so yeah I don't care if they nerf the mines I just don't really care by the time the nerf hits I will have an alternate build rolling anyway
I.R.W. Raptor's Claw
Storm Eagle Class Warbird Fleet Ha'feh
I have never trusted humans, and I never will
they don't need to nerf the torps guess you miss the whole convo going on here...
I have ways to make my build work without them so its no big deal to me
I.R.W. Raptor's Claw
Storm Eagle Class Warbird Fleet Ha'feh
I have never trusted humans, and I never will
There are those of us we don't use tri-cobalts, but do use the other mines. The PDS would make all mines useless.
Exactly what my fleet is thinking. I would also like to take the time to complain about my thread being merged with this one. This is NOT just a PvP issue as I primarily use my tricobalt weapons in PvE.
Former/Cryptic Name: Captain_Hans_Langsdorff
Founding member, Special Service Squadron
"Fear God and Dread Nought." First Sea Lord, Adm. Jacky Fisher
Anything unfortunate or silly enough to be stationary and under multi-TCM attack deserves to be toast!
If it's a PvE balancing issue then I'll say this:
To become a strategic bomber type ship I need to sacrifice a LtC or Cdr tac boff power, which tend to be lovely things like HY3 or CRF3. A bomber optimized for giant spike damage trades off direct fire, which can be a show-stopper if said bomber finds itself in a map that does not give many opportunities for employment of TCM bombing attacks.
HSE for instance - it's challenging to setup TCM runs on the Borg Queen due to continuous "AA gun fire" from the prey as well as that irritating FAW she keeps as reserve to shoot down targetable munitions.
Also, by itself even with 200-300k theoretical spike damage per bombing attack, TCM bombing by itself is not sufficient to win battles or destroy capital targets. The targets have to be made vulnerable before the bomber can make its run.
And then, the TCMs only find their mark because Transwarp Gates and Borg Cubes do not keep a FAW handy to take out the mines nor do they have point defence for the task.
In war one does not complain that the enemy is OP. He deploys a countermeasure or counter-weapon to outmatch the enemy, making his formerly OP system UP. It's about time things stopped getting nerfed, which in all possibility will start breaking, not fixing things.
My Youtube Channel
"They have a cave troll!"
It's hardly worth replying to your last paragraph; but I did pull my tricobalt mines out of reserve as soon as I saw the patch notes regarding their ability to work with dispersal patterns, and ultimately built a Defiant around tricobalt weapons (currently carrying two torps and two mines) in order to do "fun" things in STF's after a Squadron mate discovered some interesting things one could do with them. I refuse to be embarrassed by using tricobalt weapons in PvE simply because some folks consider them a "noob" weapon--I put a lot of time and effort into what I did, and I see no reason to be insulted for it. Save that for the exploiters--seems to be a new exploit out every other month, though even I can't blame people for taking advantage of the current state of the game at any given point, though I consider it dishonorable.
Despite the massive strikes possible with maxed-out setups, tricobombers are not a replacement for other setups in PvE or PvP. Just finished ISE with some other folks with 11 mins. on the opt. timer the other day and none of the others seemed to be running trico boats--in fact, things were blowing up so quickly the only things I really got to hit hard with trics were the gateway and tac cube. Those guys weren't PvP'ers, but if anything I see the tric mines as being far less useful in PvP other than for distracting players and getting the occasional lucky hit (while a better player is getting regular kills).
Before I walk away from this thread, which is more nasty than I expected, and to which I came only because my attempt at creating a different thread was folded by Cryptic back into this one, I will respond to your insult by suggesting you graduate from diapers to big boy pull-ups and admit that perhaps PvE players could have discovered something neat before or at least independently of your oh-so-special PvP club.
Former/Cryptic Name: Captain_Hans_Langsdorff
Founding member, Special Service Squadron
"Fear God and Dread Nought." First Sea Lord, Adm. Jacky Fisher
Aceton Assimilators x2
SNB Doffs
Broken TIV Placate
Syphon Drones
Plasmonic Leech
JHAS w/ any or combination of any of above mentioned
These are all cheese and the current state of competative PvP. The community at large uses them so don't let anyone tell you in game or on the forums what you can and cannot use because they're just being self-serving, as they themselves most likely use any number of this junk.
Till Cryptic actually gives a TRIBBLE about PvP, I say smoke 'em if you got 'em.
I'm not buying into the belief that a single unconsoled, unbuffed by DpB, possibly buffed Tac buffed by happenstance Tricobalt mine is any more lethal or OP than anything else in the game simply due to the fact nobody used them before the Dispersal Pattern changes.
In fact before that change in game mechanincs, many would laugh at you for using even a single Tricobalt on a build.
Fix the One Crits, They all Crit issue. That is when the Tric Mine became an problem.
Plasmonic Leech is not OP, by the way, Its been changed to being only a minor drain if one even blinks at skilling against drain in this game. Which is as it should be.
R.I.P
PvEers didn't discover anything. It was PvPers (OPvPers) who discovered the viability of Tric mines in PvE. PvEers then copied them, because they are generally fail players in the game so they need the assistance in beating lolPvE content. It's PvPers who actually figure out how things work in this game. PvEers just follow their lead.
lol at learning from PvEers. I suppose if I wanted to learn the finer points of tailor usage.
a single shot every once in a while will in no way end all mines. all mines but trics naturally deploy more then one.
dispersal patterns make even more.
using tactics you could disperse some mines to "absorb" the auto defense fire and then launch a heavy torp.
but god forbid you might actually have to use powers and weapons in combos.
Do you even Science Bro?
Cryptic would disagree