then maybe we can get to a point where we all agree the current trics are not going to work as is but a band aid fix will not work here it must be a well tested and working fix
just droping their damage by 10% wont do anything as has been pointed out
it will have to be A.separated from mine skills B.drop damage of tric mines down but leaving them still hitting harder then quantoms.
no you cant take them off of mines skills. its the reason people did not use them in the first place. they need to tone the damage when used with dp. as many others said a huge issue is when 1 tric crits they all crit. just look in logs. fix that and most of the problem is solved.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
then maybe we can get to a point where we all agree the current trics are not going to work as is but a band aid fix will not work here it must be a well tested and working fix
just droping their damage by 10% wont do anything as has been pointed out
it will have to be A.separated from mine skills B.drop damage of tric mines down but leaving them still hitting harder then quantoms.
This would make mines even worse then they were before the great mine revamp in season 6. Many of you guys obviously seem to think that going full pew-pew should be the only DPS option in this game and rage hard when another option accurs. I plead for more variety. ATM all projectile weapons (except tricobalts) are inferior to the raw damage of full dual heavy cannons/turrets - builds.
Just a little word of warning for all those that say fix crit chaining.
Right now the same rules apply to dots... if we unlink the crit chaining. The new thing we will be complaining about will be DOT builds.
Think about it... right now.... how easy is it to stack 5-10 plasma dots on someone? Very right... trust me the math is very very bad if the crit chaining is unlinked.
Yes right now if a string of dots crits all of them do... however if right now you stack 10 dots on someone ... the average player has around a 50-70% chance to Have ONE sting crit... which makes for 10 out of 100 dots = crits.... if we unlink they number of crits will in fact go up with every single crit having its own math calc... I would say dot dmg will go up a good 20-40%.... and for tacs that are now able to hit 20%+ crit chances it should be honestly over the top dmg... out of dots.
Crit linking is fine... IMO... its one weapon roll when you pattern or land a dot... and its a logical operation. If we unlink two things happen.
1) the unexpected masssive buff to Tac Dot boats happen.... and
2) the server is going to melt... honestly in a match where 2 people per side are running plasma boats... throw in some ewp and a few mine layers.... The server is going to have to do 20x the math... To be honest I don't see Cryptics servers handling it very well at al... it is possible Systems tells bort its a no go.
That is why I say just change the DP Tric mine behaviour....
1) make them so they are only one out but give them higher dmg and a 100% proc on the tric rift
2) drop the cool down on tric mines to 20s
This would allow people to lay around the same number of tric mines we have now... with or with out DP... so it would be in fact a buff for most people... However it would mean no more clusters of death... linking would not be an issue as the mines would be spread out.
at least half the fun of my builds is watching someone literally melt in seconds from my EWP3 chain crits lol. thanks to the new tier5 rom active, i can decloak alpha an EWP3 with the tool tip showing just over 2k damage, before crits...
at least half the fun of my builds is watching someone literally melt in seconds from my EWP3 chain crits lol. thanks to the new tier5 rom active, i can decloak alpha an EWP3 with the tool tip showing just over 2k damage, before crits...
Exactly... right now you have a 20% chance to really really hurt someone... but if the first one doesn't land you get no crits at all.... If they unlink your chance of landing 3-4 crits in a ewp chain of dmg is going to be the norm... so dmg in general will go up... with out perhaps the very painful full sting.
The real issue will be when you throw say an omega torp and perhaps even a rom torp into the mix...
Very quickly you could have 3-5 regular plasma torp burns on someone... +2-3 burns from the hy plasmas... + your EWP... and perhaps even 1-2 stacks from plasma energy weapons (or the console version)...
Right now all those things get ONE roll to crit... and yes if they crit they hurt... but if they unlink they all get independent rolls every single tick. It will make full burn builds a complete nightmare... we will all go back to full borg and run 2 copies of hazards just to resist it.
Not to mention we have no idea how the engine treats crit calculations on skills fired up to 15s before...
Do buffs activated from the originator after the dot lands effect the dot tick ? (meaning I won't hit my alpha... or omegas until I have a good string of burns on a target)
Does defense count against acc and crth / crtd when the dot is first landed or is it going to be real time ? (meaning again holding things like gravity wells / tractor beams Vms and engine disables until again we have a nice stack built up... then disable and boom crit explosion)
The thought of cryptic changing such a fundamental part of the engine scares the heck out of me... cause really I don't see them thinking through all the implications of a change... and we will no doubt be stuck with what ever they do for a long time.
I'm only interested in the Crit-Chaining of Tricobalt Mines when used with Dispersal Patterns. The entire Crit system does not need a revamp, just that one small part of it.
I'm only interested in the Crit-Chaining of Tricobalt Mines when used with Dispersal Patterns. The entire Crit system does not need a revamp, just that one small part of it.
Thats just it... if they make a system change to crit chaining it is going to effect everything...
EWP
Gravity Well
Tykens Rift
Plasma Weapons
Plasma Torps
Tractor beams (no big deal I know)
Tractor Beam Repulsors (I am pretty sure)
That is why i think we should push them to change them in away that doesn't involved the possibility for crit chains to happen.
Drop the cool down on the mines to 20s (10s global), and drop there dmg 10-40% or so... make patterns just boost dmg and enable rifts... and imo I think they are fixed... they are still the massive hit weapons... but we no longer have the first one killing your shield and the second your hull... and crit chains are no longer an issue as they are always one out... and almost never going to be grouped in clusters.
I have a simple solution to this problem, no mine dispersal under red alert period for any kind of mine. In real life, mines are placed strategically before battle as a trap or as a defensive measure to protect an asset, not during battle. If you want to use mines in PVP, litter your spawn with them. It will keep people from spawn camping you. If you want to use them in PVE, set a defensive radius around the Kang or Gateway ~11 km out. It's fun in PvE, but escorts flying at 70+ Km/s using DPB3 is silly. As it stands now, the current mine usage is a very skilless attack with a low (or no) opportunity cost. There is no arc to maintain and no expiration period on the mines. Replacing 1 turret at ~136 DPS with a mine that can chew through a hull at full shields (transphasic) or one that can chain crit around 900k - 1 mil for a DPB3 (tricobalt) is not very balanced and again, skilless.
Thats just it... if they make a system change to crit chaining it is going to effect everything...
Why should it? If all they do is remove the crit-chain on Tricobalt mines so they roll each time to see if they crit on impact instead of domino-ing down the line of if one crits then all crit.
Frankly we need a Dev to say wether the changes desired for Trics and DP will effect all crit-chaining ingame.
I don't think they can just take it off only the tricobalts i think its an all or nothing.
If you're referring to de-synching tricos from DBP, there already exist weapons that do not benefit from boff abilities (borg beam and the hargh'pengh (sp?)). The precedent, and presumably the back-end coding, already exists.
If you're referring to de-synching tricos from DBP, there already exist weapons that do not benefit from boff abilities (borg beam and the hargh'pengh (sp?)). The precedent, and presumably the back-end coding, already exists.
I think he was referring to the Crit chaining.
Many people say that its the fact that mines in patterns are treated like one weapon for critical hit calculations. Meaning that the entire cluster crits or none. Such that if you get hit with a crit its up to 4 crit hit mines at once.... and anything including tactical cubes is dead.
Some people believe that Cryptic cannot change that mechanic without having it effect other things like Dots from plasma weaponry, and some sci abilities. Which most people think would be a bad thing.
Cryptic hasn't said they could only change that behaviour on mines alone... or that it would in fact effect everything either. Its also possible that the Systems team will tell the STO devs that the idea is a no go due to the massive increase in server calculations needed. (assuming it would be more load and I can't see how 100s of extra calculations can't = increased server load)
This leads us to some of the other ideas, like DP not effecting mines as far as number out... or even making all the pattern abilities more like DP Alpha... in that it drops them staggered... or other ideas that keeps dmg but limits cluster size or removes clusters... so that crit chain kills are less of an issue.
so its more skill to have everyone of the tac buffs cued to 1 button and mashing that when behind the target to vaporize their shields and hulll in 3 seconds?
plenty bug pilots out their practice that on a daily baisis
I read alot about trim this down, take this out, remove that
All mine deaths are pilot error
as for those situations where your disabled, traped, depleted, blind, etc I mean really? in those cases how should anyone survive that? regardless mines or energy weapon fire
Trick is, (with energy based weapons vs energy based weapons fights, there is a way to survive that and there are people that want to keep it that way, the nigh unkillable ship supported lightly from a team with heals)
Cryptic should be lookiing into that to fix
I get it, the personal pride of solving a puzzle, min/max, being top dog, etc but
try applying all the ways that could have prevented the death from the mine, then accept that the list will be pretty long and that there are less ways to prevent death from dual cannons fired by a tac in a ship that knows what he/she is doing WITHOUT the aid of teammembers CHAIN healing you
Mines/torps should have a powerful place in the game (good lord they are massive explosions)
Cannons/energy weapons already have their place defined in order of power
Finally, I get the concept that at top teir pvp,
maybe a another guys tac/scort/dual heavy alpha strike could be easily defended againts with the proper boff layout/consoles/etc AND it probably does come down to some sort or grind/piloting-dog fight (piloting skill being the big decider- not gear cause they all fly the same stuff)
I just feel that INSTEAD OF building a ship to tank ONLY energy weapons and expect to wave off most all harmless torps and mines -Then blindly follow 1 target at a time BLASTING AWAY as a tactic...
TRY BUILDING the ship to tank ONLY torps/mines and expect to wave off harmless energy weapon fire -Then fly the ship at a distance watching closely were you fly so you dont ram your face into a mine/mines
But then that would mean, there really COULD be 2 different approaches to dealing good damage in pvp with weapons, not just dual heavys..
I think fellas, thats exactly what the makers have in mind.
Nobody should be able to deliver 600k damage in a split second (150k crit x 4 is not uncommon with tric mines). Nobody. Cryptic isn't looking at how to nerf trics because PvPers don't like it, they are to be nerfed because they allow for huge exploits in PvE content. If vast numbers of PvE only players weren't 1-shotting tac cubes and gateways in STF's they probably wouldn't care too much about it. Blame yourselves and stop looking for a scapegoat.
Oh, and if you can tell me how to reliably survive 600k worth of damage, delivered all at once, I would love to hear it.
as for those situations where your disabled, traped, depleted, blind, etc I mean really? in those cases how should anyone survive that? regardless mines or energy weapon fire
No, not all mine deaths are pilot error.
lol, I survive placates just fine. It's when they get combined with Trics that they become stupidly powerful abilities.
AMS + EWP + Tric Mines is a stupidly easy and powerful combo that is hard to resist. It's only going to get worse with that placate passive that doesn't break with damage.
You don't need Trics for PvE content, for ****s sake. And they are too powerful for how easy it is to deploy them in PvP.
And lol at comparing Tric mine spamming with Tac Escort alphas.
Alphas actually take skill, timing and teamwork to pull off against solid teams.
It has come to my attention that, thanks to community feedback aka "whining," a favorite weapon of a number of us for PvE is about to get hit with the Nerf hammer. While I have read a dev post regarding the reasons for this, and the mechanics for the proposed nerf, and while the nerf would not create a situation as bad for tricobalt fans as existed before the mines became affected by dispersal patterns; I am still strongly against any nerf aimed at tricobalt mines. It appears that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease," when it comes to nerfing things, so my aim is to make my wheel squeaky enough to count.
I believe that the devs are aware of some or all of the following points, but let me reiterate:
1) I have both used and been hit by tricobalt mines in PvP, and I am pretty well convinced that they are powerful but not truly dominating by any means. There are a whole host of abilities to defeat both them and the tactics that maximize their impact, and even a newcomer to PvP can figure that out. In most cases, I am a lot more afraid of a well-executed alpha strike by a BoP in PvP than a spread of tricobalt mines dropped out of the back of my target, with or without warp plasma or tractor beams and such.
2) I primarily enjoy using these mines in PvE, and can do some great things with them in STF's, but beyond a certain point maximizing the impact of tricobalt weaponry requires extreme specialization just like anything else. There are rumors of incredible things one can do with tricobalts, but a ship equipped to do those things to the fullest will be unable to do certain other things--I'll just leave it at that. My point is, these are now great weapons for a lot of things, but are still shy of game-breaking.
I know I have friends and fleetmates with further things to say, so I'll leave my comments at that for now, and invite them to contribute to this thread and participate in any debate that may follow. As for me, I will be truly disappointed and saddened if one of my favorite "toys" has the edge taken off it because of a bunch of players that saw a few spectacular explosions and didn't take the time to think before calling for a nerf.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Former/Cryptic Name: Captain_Hans_Langsdorff
Founding member, Special Service Squadron
"Fear God and Dread Nought." First Sea Lord, Adm. Jacky Fisher
If you actually read the main thread on this, you'll see that there is very little "whining" (to use your term) directed at Trico mines themselves. The issues are the chain crits (if one mine crits, all of them crit) and the massive boost Tricos get from dispersal patterns. Instead of dealing with those problems (which have been raised in part or in whole by various folks for years now, Cryptic wants to be their usual lazy self and avoid the core of the problem.
Secondly, the more concerning thing isn't the Trico conversation, but that Cryptic seems to want to make battleship and dreadnaught tier ships completely immune to targetable projectiles (mines, HY torps) and carrier pets.
If these changes go through this will be a nerf to the B'rel retrofit, and it deserves to be buffed to make up for weakening its primary weapon. Targetable torpedos shot by players need to move faster and be harder to shoot down by NPCs and the B'rel should have the amount of time it is visible after shooting a torp reduced. Make it so we can actually kill stuff at a reasonable rate with torps if we can't with mines anymore.
1) I have both used and been hit by tricobalt mines in PvP, and I am pretty well convinced that they are powerful but not truly dominating by any means. There are a whole host of abilities to defeat both them and the tactics that maximize their impact, and even a newcomer to PvP can figure that out. In most cases, I am a lot more afraid of a well-executed alpha strike by a BoP in PvP than a spread of tricobalt mines dropped out of the back of my target, with or without warp plasma or tractor beams and such.
A well executed alpha strike can be defended easily with Tac Team + EPTS and any other shield resist.
Try defending against an EWP + AMS + Tric mine combo. Or try defending against the Timeship + Tric combo, where the mines activate while you're helpless and then blow up when time resumes.
Your belief is irrelevant. It's been tested. The only way to survive at least one hit in a 3-crit chain is to use an Intrepid w/ Ablative activated, and buffed with PH, HE, etc. And after your armor is disabled by the first Tric, you end up nuked anyway by the rest of the Trics.
And the only real Tricbombers are the ones who use torpedos, not the nubs who only started using Trics after it was found out (by OPvPers) that they crit-chained for insane damage with DPB.
I agree with you 100%. I find that most of the time the biggest whiners are part of a very small, very vocal minority. I get my TRIBBLE handed to me by lock box ships on a regular basis when doing pvp, but you dont see me on here calling for a lockbox ship nerf. Instead I learn how to fight.
The tricobalt mines are powerful, but they aren't the be end all. They have a one minute cool down between uses, and if you are unable to get your mines close enough to the enemy, thats a wasted volley. You cant give me any good reason why trico mines should be nerfed
Sad to see that my build has caused this much problem for people lol. Never expected using it in STFs to cause this, it even kept its nick name i gave it.
220k is highest single crit ive gotten with a tricobalt mine, x4. I never used it in pvp cause any 1/2 decent pvper should FAW scatter volley all the mines almost every time. Guess my fun led to this sorry all.
Just recently heard about the Tricobalt nerfs and thought I add my 2 cents.
What I see Borticus Proposing, I don't agree with. Nerfing Damage for sake of balance? The Problem isn't the damage it's the multiple mines being spawned with Mine Patterns and people abusing it.
What Cryptic needs to do is not make more changes, but take a step back and go back to the previous Tricobalt system where one, two, or three mines can be deployed at a single time.
Furthermore, after experience Gorn and Fek'lhri NPCs using Tricobalt mines, I really think there should be an activation delay added as well.
I admit I almost 1 shotted Donatra on elite before when all my mines critted for 250k+ with the highest one doing 292k. Even though its possible to do this, I still don't think that its overpowered. Something like this does not happen often, and it takes a lot of points to spec into maxing all the skills needed to pull this off, and a completely dedicated build that can't do anything except use tricobalt mines and torpedos effectively.
The usual escort who is running dpb3 trico mines is not buffing it with consoles and doesn't have maxed projectile weapon specialization, he isn't hitting for anywhere near this amount, its not really a big problem. Most tricobalt mine users I see in STFs are only getting 100k -150k range per mine on crits, at most its not unbalancing anything by them doing that.
I admit I almost 1 shotted Donatra on elite before when all my mines critted for 250k+ with the highest one doing 292k. Even though its possible to do this, I still don't think that its overpowered. Something like this does not happen often, and it takes a lot of points to spec into maxing all the skills needed to pull this off, and a completely dedicated build that can't do anything except use tricobalt mines and torpedos effectively.
The usual escort who is running dpb3 trico mines is not buffing it with consoles and doesn't have maxed projectile weapon specialization, he isn't hitting for anywhere near this amount, its not really a big problem. Most tricobalt mine users I see in STFs are only getting 100k -150k range per mine on crits, at most its not unbalancing anything by them doing that.
Until you realize that the most health a player can have is around 60k.
And they said its less a pve issue and more a pvp issue. And i can completely see how getting nailed by 250-1million dmg could ruin someones day in pvp. But honestly you shouldnt be landing almost any mine/heavy torpedo hit in most pvp battles.
There is enough x ACC weapons w/ FAW/CSV going to nail them. And while insanely powerful you might be dmg wise you still die like everyone else. A simple fix would be to just set a player dmg reduction to tricobalt mines.
But like most things cryptic will go and tip the scale 95% out of balance and nerf them into uselessness.
I loved my build and i made it specificly for STFs though i never bothered to fully max all the dmg out on it as 1mill in a pass i think does the job. STF wise it honestly needs to be left alone for the most part. In KAE it allowed me to take low dps groups and still get the optional. People could then play the ships they wanted low dmg or other wise without getting gipped for cryptics poor idea of gameplay.
I could take 3 cubes, 12 generators, 3 transformers, while 3 guys killed 1 cube 4 genrators 1 transformer and probes, leaving last guy to get probes on other side. Then i could fly back blow 30-50% off the gate in a pass and continue on from there.
You want to make the game dmg based then nerf high dmg builds because of pvp that you say is dead? K... lets toss out that this build isnt going to 1 shot everything in the game player,npc, or otherwise. Make Tri mines cooldown 30 sec, leave dmg as is, and make it not work with dispersal patterns. That means we could drop 4 mines a min with 2 launchers with less mines to target pvpers could cry less about their dead aspect of the game, npc's could cry less that we pwned their face in one pass, and we can all go back to crying about borg instagib invis torpedos, oh thats not fixed still?
*sarcastic thumbs up*
In all fairness, how bout you really fix pvp by i donno WORKING ON IT NOT IGNORING IT. No new maps, no pvp gear, no nothing in 3 years. Ya mines are the problem heh.
And they said its less a pve issue and more a pvp issue. And i can completely see how getting nailed by 250-1million dmg could ruin someones day in pvp. But honestly you shouldnt be landing almost any mine/heavy torpedo hit in most pvp battles.
There is enough x ACC weapons w/ FAW/CSV going to nail them. And while insanely powerful you might be dmg wise you still die like everyone else. A simple fix would be to just set a player dmg reduction to tricobalt mines.
But like most things cryptic will go and tip the scale 95% out of balance and nerf them into uselessness.
I loved my build and i made it specificly for STFs though i never bothered to fully max all the dmg out on it as 1mill in a pass i think does the job. STF wise it honestly needs to be left alone for the most part. In KAE it allowed me to take low dps groups and still get the optional. People could then play the ships they wanted low dmg or other wise without getting gipped for cryptics poor idea of gameplay.
I could take 3 cubes, 12 generators, 3 transformers, while 3 guys killed 1 cube 4 genrators 1 transformer and probes, leaving last guy to get probes on other side. Then i could fly back blow 30-50% off the gate in a pass and continue on from there.
You want to make the game dmg based then nerf high dmg builds because of pvp that you say is dead? K... lets toss out that this build isnt going to 1 shot everything in the game player,npc, or otherwise. Make Tri mines cooldown 30 sec, leave dmg as is, and make it not work with dispersal patterns. That means we could drop 4 mines a min with 2 launchers with less mines to target pvpers could cry less about their dead aspect of the game, npc's could cry less that we pwned their face in one pass, and we can all go back to crying about borg instagib invis torpedos, oh thats not fixed still?
*sarcastic thumbs up*
In all fairness, how bout you really fix pvp by i donno WORKING ON IT NOT IGNORING IT. No new maps, no pvp gear, no nothing in 3 years. Ya mines are the problem heh.
Everyone saying these shouldn't work in pvp cause CSV FAW ect ect... are not really considering that the mines are all MESed.
Sorry CSV and faw are both not all that effective as in general you don't see them unless your with in 3k. The only reliable AOE I know of to control them is Gravity Well.
They are much more effective in pvp then you would expect... if you hid them in a spam overload setup with a carrier or 2 and a sci or 2 throwing out a couple spam fleets. There is a very good chance of landing these things on the Spam worst case... causing disables and shutting off Extends with no skill required. That is there real issue in PvP as I see it. If I am going to spam a bunch of tricos if I get one kill in a match thats cool and all... but in general its the annoyance of the AOE disables that will win a match for a team in a close match.
There really is no defending there mechanics as they are... if your going to put one tric mine on the back... you might as well put 2... 30s is not that bad of an out time... one Pattern will cover both launchers making for 2-8 out per min... which I will agree isn't fantastic coverage. However throw that into a typical PvP Spam field and even if 1-4 of them in that min just hit spam the AOES are going to be good enough to ensure your 1-2 kills the old fashioned cannon escort way... cause someone is going to have there extend knocked off, or there healer distracted long enough to do the deed.
As far as it being a PvP issue alone and not a PvE issue... come on I can throw them on my brel and one shot gates at will... how is that not a PvE issue. I don't think the game was designed with the intention for me to stroll up to a gate that hasn't been argoed by anyone... buff up drop 4 mines and laugh when 300k 300k 300k 300k rolls up and it goes boom.
There are several easy solutions to MES part as well as the rest, but cryptic will chose the most oddball over the top complicated fix they can imagine. As i said if you simply remove the use of dispersal, make it 30 sec cooldown with 15 sec global thats 1/2 the mines you can lay now in 1 min with 2 launchers and all spaced out so no massive wtf pwned moments yet still leaves them as viable weapons.
Though honestly i think people worried about 300k hits in pvp are forgetting that you can easily do 100k dmg with 4 quatum torpedos fully buffed, and 100k or 300k your just as dead. The quatums arent targetable to boot. Does it need adjusted sure, i dont like total rampage on someone in pvp but pvp is a bit of a joke in any state of the game since launch. If they really gave a *uck about pvp they would be more concerned about all that stuff not just the mines.
And sadly and easiest solution to pvp vs pve problems is a pvp % dmg reduction in pvp areas. Was something we had in SWG for a long time once it was removed it became a total spike dmg kill fest. Currently thats all pvp is here. Rather them fix the whole problem not just a symptom of it.
This is just something I thought of at random as a possible reworking of tricobalt mines.
Apply the ammo mechanic of the Omega torp to tricobalt mines, say with a maximum of 4. Reload time can be reworked by the devs or suggested by the players. Maybe 60s, to match the current deployment rate, and entering matches with one charge slotted.
Although this would involve removing Dispersal Pattern Alpha, it does avoid chain-crits resulting from multiple deployments with this ability.
Dispersal Pattern Beta could be nerfed this way. To work with the ammo mechanic, it would only deploy any remaining ammunition in the launcher. In other words, let's say DPB3 is used. Since it has a maximum of 4 mines, if there are 4 charges, it will still deploy the maximum of 4. However, if there are only 1 or 2 charges, DPB3 will still only deploy 1 or 2. The net effect will be that players will have to wait a longer between DPB shots.
And sadly and easiest solution to pvp vs pve problems is a pvp % dmg reduction in pvp areas. Was something we had in SWG for a long time once it was removed it became a total spike dmg kill fest. Currently thats all pvp is here. Rather them fix the whole problem not just a symptom of it.
People seem to be confusing this as a PvP issue... it isn't it is 100% a PvE issue.
No they are not good for pvp... but they are worse for pve....
It is simply a PvPers that made this issue known to Cryptic. Cause yes we where the ones that saw the changes and the thought first and foremost .... great now I don't have to grind the STFS no more... I'm just going to go in with a pvp friend or 2 and finish all 3 space STFS in under 15 min... That is the real issue with 300k crits. They are an annoying gimmick in PvP... in PvE yes... 3 PvP players that go hard core Dispersal 3 builds... can wipe any of the stfs iin 1/8th the time Cryptic would be shooting for design wise... that isn't really cool by them I don't think, which is why they seem now willing to fix the issue. (and we have been talking about it since BEFORE the patch that allowed this stupidness went live).
All though I will agree that borts current thoughts seem completely stupid to me as well....
I agree... change the way dispersal works with trics... Just make it buff there dmg and enable the disable rifts... and reduce Tric mine cool downs to a reasonable number... 20-30s... with a 20-30% dmg reduction. That stops the crit chaining issue... makes the mine more usable with out patterns... and gives pattern use with them a reason to exist. They may still be annoying spammed in a PvP spam fields... but at least they won't one shot people through shields (as the first will remove the shield and second - forth the hull)... and they will also NOT be one shotting gates and cubes.
Comments
no you cant take them off of mines skills. its the reason people did not use them in the first place. they need to tone the damage when used with dp. as many others said a huge issue is when 1 tric crits they all crit. just look in logs. fix that and most of the problem is solved.
This would make mines even worse then they were before the great mine revamp in season 6. Many of you guys obviously seem to think that going full pew-pew should be the only DPS option in this game and rage hard when another option accurs. I plead for more variety. ATM all projectile weapons (except tricobalts) are inferior to the raw damage of full dual heavy cannons/turrets - builds.
Right now the same rules apply to dots... if we unlink the crit chaining. The new thing we will be complaining about will be DOT builds.
Think about it... right now.... how easy is it to stack 5-10 plasma dots on someone? Very right... trust me the math is very very bad if the crit chaining is unlinked.
Yes right now if a string of dots crits all of them do... however if right now you stack 10 dots on someone ... the average player has around a 50-70% chance to Have ONE sting crit... which makes for 10 out of 100 dots = crits.... if we unlink they number of crits will in fact go up with every single crit having its own math calc... I would say dot dmg will go up a good 20-40%.... and for tacs that are now able to hit 20%+ crit chances it should be honestly over the top dmg... out of dots.
Crit linking is fine... IMO... its one weapon roll when you pattern or land a dot... and its a logical operation. If we unlink two things happen.
1) the unexpected masssive buff to Tac Dot boats happen.... and
2) the server is going to melt... honestly in a match where 2 people per side are running plasma boats... throw in some ewp and a few mine layers.... The server is going to have to do 20x the math... To be honest I don't see Cryptics servers handling it very well at al... it is possible Systems tells bort its a no go.
That is why I say just change the DP Tric mine behaviour....
1) make them so they are only one out but give them higher dmg and a 100% proc on the tric rift
2) drop the cool down on tric mines to 20s
This would allow people to lay around the same number of tric mines we have now... with or with out DP... so it would be in fact a buff for most people... However it would mean no more clusters of death... linking would not be an issue as the mines would be spread out.
Exactly... right now you have a 20% chance to really really hurt someone... but if the first one doesn't land you get no crits at all.... If they unlink your chance of landing 3-4 crits in a ewp chain of dmg is going to be the norm... so dmg in general will go up... with out perhaps the very painful full sting.
The real issue will be when you throw say an omega torp and perhaps even a rom torp into the mix...
Very quickly you could have 3-5 regular plasma torp burns on someone... +2-3 burns from the hy plasmas... + your EWP... and perhaps even 1-2 stacks from plasma energy weapons (or the console version)...
Right now all those things get ONE roll to crit... and yes if they crit they hurt... but if they unlink they all get independent rolls every single tick. It will make full burn builds a complete nightmare... we will all go back to full borg and run 2 copies of hazards just to resist it.
Not to mention we have no idea how the engine treats crit calculations on skills fired up to 15s before...
Do buffs activated from the originator after the dot lands effect the dot tick ? (meaning I won't hit my alpha... or omegas until I have a good string of burns on a target)
Does defense count against acc and crth / crtd when the dot is first landed or is it going to be real time ? (meaning again holding things like gravity wells / tractor beams Vms and engine disables until again we have a nice stack built up... then disable and boom crit explosion)
The thought of cryptic changing such a fundamental part of the engine scares the heck out of me... cause really I don't see them thinking through all the implications of a change... and we will no doubt be stuck with what ever they do for a long time.
R.I.P
Thats just it... if they make a system change to crit chaining it is going to effect everything...
EWP
Gravity Well
Tykens Rift
Plasma Weapons
Plasma Torps
Tractor beams (no big deal I know)
Tractor Beam Repulsors (I am pretty sure)
That is why i think we should push them to change them in away that doesn't involved the possibility for crit chains to happen.
Drop the cool down on the mines to 20s (10s global), and drop there dmg 10-40% or so... make patterns just boost dmg and enable rifts... and imo I think they are fixed... they are still the massive hit weapons... but we no longer have the first one killing your shield and the second your hull... and crit chains are no longer an issue as they are always one out... and almost never going to be grouped in clusters.
R.I.P
If you're referring to de-synching tricos from DBP, there already exist weapons that do not benefit from boff abilities (borg beam and the hargh'pengh (sp?)). The precedent, and presumably the back-end coding, already exists.
I think he was referring to the Crit chaining.
Many people say that its the fact that mines in patterns are treated like one weapon for critical hit calculations. Meaning that the entire cluster crits or none. Such that if you get hit with a crit its up to 4 crit hit mines at once.... and anything including tactical cubes is dead.
Some people believe that Cryptic cannot change that mechanic without having it effect other things like Dots from plasma weaponry, and some sci abilities. Which most people think would be a bad thing.
Cryptic hasn't said they could only change that behaviour on mines alone... or that it would in fact effect everything either. Its also possible that the Systems team will tell the STO devs that the idea is a no go due to the massive increase in server calculations needed. (assuming it would be more load and I can't see how 100s of extra calculations can't = increased server load)
This leads us to some of the other ideas, like DP not effecting mines as far as number out... or even making all the pattern abilities more like DP Alpha... in that it drops them staggered... or other ideas that keeps dmg but limits cluster size or removes clusters... so that crit chain kills are less of an issue.
Nobody should be able to deliver 600k damage in a split second (150k crit x 4 is not uncommon with tric mines). Nobody. Cryptic isn't looking at how to nerf trics because PvPers don't like it, they are to be nerfed because they allow for huge exploits in PvE content. If vast numbers of PvE only players weren't 1-shotting tac cubes and gateways in STF's they probably wouldn't care too much about it. Blame yourselves and stop looking for a scapegoat.
Oh, and if you can tell me how to reliably survive 600k worth of damage, delivered all at once, I would love to hear it.
No, not all mine deaths are pilot error.
lol, I survive placates just fine. It's when they get combined with Trics that they become stupidly powerful abilities.
AMS + EWP + Tric Mines is a stupidly easy and powerful combo that is hard to resist. It's only going to get worse with that placate passive that doesn't break with damage.
You don't need Trics for PvE content, for ****s sake. And they are too powerful for how easy it is to deploy them in PvP.
And lol at comparing Tric mine spamming with Tac Escort alphas.
Alphas actually take skill, timing and teamwork to pull off against solid teams.
I believe that the devs are aware of some or all of the following points, but let me reiterate:
1) I have both used and been hit by tricobalt mines in PvP, and I am pretty well convinced that they are powerful but not truly dominating by any means. There are a whole host of abilities to defeat both them and the tactics that maximize their impact, and even a newcomer to PvP can figure that out. In most cases, I am a lot more afraid of a well-executed alpha strike by a BoP in PvP than a spread of tricobalt mines dropped out of the back of my target, with or without warp plasma or tractor beams and such.
2) I primarily enjoy using these mines in PvE, and can do some great things with them in STF's, but beyond a certain point maximizing the impact of tricobalt weaponry requires extreme specialization just like anything else. There are rumors of incredible things one can do with tricobalts, but a ship equipped to do those things to the fullest will be unable to do certain other things--I'll just leave it at that. My point is, these are now great weapons for a lot of things, but are still shy of game-breaking.
I know I have friends and fleetmates with further things to say, so I'll leave my comments at that for now, and invite them to contribute to this thread and participate in any debate that may follow. As for me, I will be truly disappointed and saddened if one of my favorite "toys" has the edge taken off it because of a bunch of players that saw a few spectacular explosions and didn't take the time to think before calling for a nerf.
best,
~Katie@Captain_Hans_Langsdorff
U.S.S. Indefatigable, NCC-91909-A
Former/Cryptic Name: Captain_Hans_Langsdorff
Founding member, Special Service Squadron
"Fear God and Dread Nought." First Sea Lord, Adm. Jacky Fisher
Secondly, the more concerning thing isn't the Trico conversation, but that Cryptic seems to want to make battleship and dreadnaught tier ships completely immune to targetable projectiles (mines, HY torps) and carrier pets.
A well executed alpha strike can be defended easily with Tac Team + EPTS and any other shield resist.
Try defending against an EWP + AMS + Tric mine combo. Or try defending against the Timeship + Tric combo, where the mines activate while you're helpless and then blow up when time resumes.
Your belief is irrelevant. It's been tested. The only way to survive at least one hit in a 3-crit chain is to use an Intrepid w/ Ablative activated, and buffed with PH, HE, etc. And after your armor is disabled by the first Tric, you end up nuked anyway by the rest of the Trics.
And the only real Tricbombers are the ones who use torpedos, not the nubs who only started using Trics after it was found out (by OPvPers) that they crit-chained for insane damage with DPB.
The tricobalt mines are powerful, but they aren't the be end all. They have a one minute cool down between uses, and if you are unable to get your mines close enough to the enemy, thats a wasted volley. You cant give me any good reason why trico mines should be nerfed
Rest in Peace Brothers
220k is highest single crit ive gotten with a tricobalt mine, x4. I never used it in pvp cause any 1/2 decent pvper should FAW scatter volley all the mines almost every time. Guess my fun led to this sorry all.
What I see Borticus Proposing, I don't agree with. Nerfing Damage for sake of balance? The Problem isn't the damage it's the multiple mines being spawned with Mine Patterns and people abusing it.
What Cryptic needs to do is not make more changes, but take a step back and go back to the previous Tricobalt system where one, two, or three mines can be deployed at a single time.
Furthermore, after experience Gorn and Fek'lhri NPCs using Tricobalt mines, I really think there should be an activation delay added as well.
The usual escort who is running dpb3 trico mines is not buffing it with consoles and doesn't have maxed projectile weapon specialization, he isn't hitting for anywhere near this amount, its not really a big problem. Most tricobalt mine users I see in STFs are only getting 100k -150k range per mine on crits, at most its not unbalancing anything by them doing that.
Until you realize that the most health a player can have is around 60k.
Do you even Science Bro?
There is enough x ACC weapons w/ FAW/CSV going to nail them. And while insanely powerful you might be dmg wise you still die like everyone else. A simple fix would be to just set a player dmg reduction to tricobalt mines.
But like most things cryptic will go and tip the scale 95% out of balance and nerf them into uselessness.
I loved my build and i made it specificly for STFs though i never bothered to fully max all the dmg out on it as 1mill in a pass i think does the job. STF wise it honestly needs to be left alone for the most part. In KAE it allowed me to take low dps groups and still get the optional. People could then play the ships they wanted low dmg or other wise without getting gipped for cryptics poor idea of gameplay.
I could take 3 cubes, 12 generators, 3 transformers, while 3 guys killed 1 cube 4 genrators 1 transformer and probes, leaving last guy to get probes on other side. Then i could fly back blow 30-50% off the gate in a pass and continue on from there.
You want to make the game dmg based then nerf high dmg builds because of pvp that you say is dead? K... lets toss out that this build isnt going to 1 shot everything in the game player,npc, or otherwise. Make Tri mines cooldown 30 sec, leave dmg as is, and make it not work with dispersal patterns. That means we could drop 4 mines a min with 2 launchers with less mines to target pvpers could cry less about their dead aspect of the game, npc's could cry less that we pwned their face in one pass, and we can all go back to crying about borg instagib invis torpedos, oh thats not fixed still?
*sarcastic thumbs up*
In all fairness, how bout you really fix pvp by i donno WORKING ON IT NOT IGNORING IT. No new maps, no pvp gear, no nothing in 3 years. Ya mines are the problem heh.
Sarcastic thumbs up to cryptic. Plus one.
Sorry CSV and faw are both not all that effective as in general you don't see them unless your with in 3k. The only reliable AOE I know of to control them is Gravity Well.
They are much more effective in pvp then you would expect... if you hid them in a spam overload setup with a carrier or 2 and a sci or 2 throwing out a couple spam fleets. There is a very good chance of landing these things on the Spam worst case... causing disables and shutting off Extends with no skill required. That is there real issue in PvP as I see it. If I am going to spam a bunch of tricos if I get one kill in a match thats cool and all... but in general its the annoyance of the AOE disables that will win a match for a team in a close match.
There really is no defending there mechanics as they are... if your going to put one tric mine on the back... you might as well put 2... 30s is not that bad of an out time... one Pattern will cover both launchers making for 2-8 out per min... which I will agree isn't fantastic coverage. However throw that into a typical PvP Spam field and even if 1-4 of them in that min just hit spam the AOES are going to be good enough to ensure your 1-2 kills the old fashioned cannon escort way... cause someone is going to have there extend knocked off, or there healer distracted long enough to do the deed.
As far as it being a PvP issue alone and not a PvE issue... come on I can throw them on my brel and one shot gates at will... how is that not a PvE issue. I don't think the game was designed with the intention for me to stroll up to a gate that hasn't been argoed by anyone... buff up drop 4 mines and laugh when 300k 300k 300k 300k rolls up and it goes boom.
Though honestly i think people worried about 300k hits in pvp are forgetting that you can easily do 100k dmg with 4 quatum torpedos fully buffed, and 100k or 300k your just as dead. The quatums arent targetable to boot. Does it need adjusted sure, i dont like total rampage on someone in pvp but pvp is a bit of a joke in any state of the game since launch. If they really gave a *uck about pvp they would be more concerned about all that stuff not just the mines.
And sadly and easiest solution to pvp vs pve problems is a pvp % dmg reduction in pvp areas. Was something we had in SWG for a long time once it was removed it became a total spike dmg kill fest. Currently thats all pvp is here. Rather them fix the whole problem not just a symptom of it.
Apply the ammo mechanic of the Omega torp to tricobalt mines, say with a maximum of 4. Reload time can be reworked by the devs or suggested by the players. Maybe 60s, to match the current deployment rate, and entering matches with one charge slotted.
Although this would involve removing Dispersal Pattern Alpha, it does avoid chain-crits resulting from multiple deployments with this ability.
Dispersal Pattern Beta could be nerfed this way. To work with the ammo mechanic, it would only deploy any remaining ammunition in the launcher. In other words, let's say DPB3 is used. Since it has a maximum of 4 mines, if there are 4 charges, it will still deploy the maximum of 4. However, if there are only 1 or 2 charges, DPB3 will still only deploy 1 or 2. The net effect will be that players will have to wait a longer between DPB shots.
People seem to be confusing this as a PvP issue... it isn't it is 100% a PvE issue.
No they are not good for pvp... but they are worse for pve....
It is simply a PvPers that made this issue known to Cryptic. Cause yes we where the ones that saw the changes and the thought first and foremost .... great now I don't have to grind the STFS no more... I'm just going to go in with a pvp friend or 2 and finish all 3 space STFS in under 15 min... That is the real issue with 300k crits. They are an annoying gimmick in PvP... in PvE yes... 3 PvP players that go hard core Dispersal 3 builds... can wipe any of the stfs iin 1/8th the time Cryptic would be shooting for design wise... that isn't really cool by them I don't think, which is why they seem now willing to fix the issue. (and we have been talking about it since BEFORE the patch that allowed this stupidness went live).
All though I will agree that borts current thoughts seem completely stupid to me as well....
I agree... change the way dispersal works with trics... Just make it buff there dmg and enable the disable rifts... and reduce Tric mine cool downs to a reasonable number... 20-30s... with a 20-30% dmg reduction. That stops the crit chaining issue... makes the mine more usable with out patterns... and gives pattern use with them a reason to exist. They may still be annoying spammed in a PvP spam fields... but at least they won't one shot people through shields (as the first will remove the shield and second - forth the hull)... and they will also NOT be one shotting gates and cubes.