Are you willing to pay $14.11 for a Star Cruiser or Patrol Escort, when a Fleet ship only costs $20.00?
No, but then I'm not willing to pay $20 or $25 for the VA level ships either. Which is why all my guys had been planning to just run around in lv40 ships forever. But then the Breen ship happened.
(Of course, now that I was able to get a bunch of Zen by selling Dil, I may actually end up buying a ship. But not by laying out $ for it. I have bought zen - and sub time - but I put it into many smaller utility things - like character slots, inventory space, doff capacity, etc.)
I've been mostly arguing the concepts here for the sake of it. My personal view? Paying $ to turn into Dil is something you'd never catch me doing. I'd much rather spend a bit of time on something, instead of going all Instant Gratification and throwing cash at the "problem".
In the end, the correct price is what the market will bear. If enough Zen sellers dislike getting so little Dil for their zen, they'll stop selling. And the price will go up. Again, if there's still Zen out there selling at that price, it's not the Dil sellers fault - it's the other more-desperate-than-you Zen sellers, who want their Instant Dil Now Dammit more than you do.
And again - if market events (either normal sales, or conspiracy-claimed "manipulation") get to the point that the game stops making as much money, Cryptic & PWE will make changes. Because they're in it to make money. And again - market manipulation by a handful of whales? The devs have all that info - it's not secret trading to them. They can see it all, they know who's sitting on giant piles, they know who's moving giant piles - if it's harming their profits, they'll do something about it. If it's not..... no real reason they should care.
My point was more that there is an innate value for Dil, because we have items that sell for set amounts of Dil and items that sell for set amounts of Zen. Comparing those items will let us come up with what Cryptic thought was the "fair" price.
In the end, the correct price is what the market will bear.
That may be true, but that also does not mean that current prices are in fact what the "correct" price. It dipped to 85:1 for about a day and then shot back up to 89:1. It hasn't stabilized - though I am no longer certain about the cause, given what theroyalfamily posted about the Dil Exchange.
I stand by my initial prediction that unless Cryptic steps in and either directly sells Dilithium on the C-Store (thus setting the bottom price) or sells tokens for additional refinement in 1 day (temporary device/item that converts 1k ore) thus indirectly influencing the market, then there will only be freemarket piracy - an unregulated market is a market run by the rich, for the rich, at the expense of the not-rich. Be it cash-rich, Zen-rich, Dilithium-rich or time-rich.
But who dictates who is rich in this economy? At one point people holding Zen were rich, now it is the Dilithium owners? Just because the current situation isn't as advantageous for Zen holders in the past doesn't make them poor, or the dilithium holders rich. And just because some people shuck a few extra bucks into the game doesn't make them anywhere near rich as well.
Right now there is no such "free market piracy", just a change in the valuation of two commodities. Was it "free market piracy" when it took 300 dil to get one Zen?
Its really easy to call in for "regulation" in a situation when one sees that it isn't beneficial for themselves (now or in the long run).
In time, this situation will correct itself on its own.
My point was more that there is an innate value for Dil, because we have items that sell for set amounts of Dil and items that sell for set amounts of Zen. Comparing those items will let us come up with what Cryptic thought was the "fair" price.
That may be true, but that also does not mean that current prices are in fact what the "correct" price. It dipped to 85:1 for about a day and then shot back up to 89:1. It hasn't stabilized - though I am no longer certain about the cause, given what theroyalfamily posted about the Dil Exchange.
It also doesn't mean that the "current" prices AREN'T the correct price either. Markets stabilize over far longer periods than days or weeks. I would love for an enterprising individual actually make an exchange rate value graph from since the exchange started. I would be curious to look at the patterns it has taken. I remember sub-100 dil/Zen exchange rates in the beginning as well.
I am needing 2 MILLION refined Dilthium to just get my fleet projects over with. Is there any way yet I can just get this from a player through trading or selling items in exchange, or do I need to spend over $20 in Zen PER 200K of Dilth like I did last year to Cryptic?
If not, then I guess I will just leave those projects not done until this time next year. At least I have Morn, and open window and the Breen ship on my starbase. :rolleyes:
Do a bunch of Borg STF's and turn the Omega points in for Dil'. I earned 40k in dil today off of just that with two toons.
I am needing 2 MILLION refined Dilthium to just get my fleet projects over with. Is there any way yet I can just get this from a player through trading or selling items in exchange, or do I need to spend over $20 in Zen PER 200K of Dilth like I did last year to Cryptic?
If not, then I guess I will just leave those projects not done until this time next year. At least I have Morn, and open window and the Breen ship on my starbase. :rolleyes:
You could just play the game to earn the dilithium. If you are a solo-fleet, I'm not feeling your pain.
__________________________________
STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
We have certain goods bought with Zen, and we have goods bought with Dil. We can judge how much a "fair" price of Dil is by looking at how much we think the set-price Dil products should be worth.
For comparison, a Fleet ship (4 modules) costs $20.00, and the best C Store ships cost $25.00.
Are you willing to pay $14.11 for a Star Cruiser or Patrol Escort, when a Fleet ship only costs $20.00?
Would you pay $14.11 for a Patrol Escort when a Tactical Escort Retrofit (Defiant) costs $20.00?
The former were all free, too.
So long as I'm doing this:
Mk XII M.A.C.O. space set - 102,000 Dil total
85:1 - $12.00
100:1 - $10.20
120:1 - $8.50
240:1 - $4.25
300:1 - $3.40
"Fair" depends on whether you are buying ships with dilithium, or with zen.
When the cost of zen is 85 dilithium for 1 zen, I'm more likely to buy zen ships using dilithium, and to forgo dilithium ships. When zen costs 300 dilithium for 1 zen, I'm more likely to buy dilithium ships with my dilithium, and buy zen ships using purchased-for-cash zen.
There is no situation that is unfair to me.
__________________________________
STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
Didn't cost me a dime for my Fleet Excel'. My stipend from my sub' payed for what I needed and my efforts paid the rest.
I was purely going by his hypothetical situation where someone would use all real money to buy a ship and outfit the ship -something Cryptic would LOVE everyone to do.
The reason that the low price is concerning is that Cryptic needs money - they have people to pay and bills to pay - a lot of that depends on people buying Zen with real money - if those people stop doing that this game we all love is in trouble.
I was purely going by his hypothetical situation where someone would use all real money to buy a ship and outfit the ship -something Cryptic would LOVE everyone to do.
The reason that the low price is concerning is that Cryptic needs money - they have people to pay and bills to pay - a lot of that depends on people buying Zen with real money - if those people stop doing that this game we all love is in trouble.
Well, maybe they should add stuff to the c-store that Trekkies want, like bridges from TNG, Voyager, the TOS movies, and Enterprise, a T-5 Constitution class ship, skants, playable Romulan, Caradassian, and Ferengi factions, et cetera.
Before F2P, I purchased almost every ship in the c-store. Now I buy nothing other than what I get with my stipend.
Well, maybe they should add stuff to the c-store that Trekkies want, like bridges from TNG, Voyager, the TOS movies, and Enterprise, a T-5 Constitution class ship, skants, playable Romulan, Caradassian, and Ferengi factions, et cetera.
I agree. My c-store purchases slowed and almost stopped since F2P. I'd like to see some of the above added to the game for purchase.
I suppose it's cheaper and easier for Cryptic to create "new" 2409 areas instead of recreating canon ones. For 2409 they never have to study canon specs and never have to go back and fix canon errors. Good for them but it's not what tickles my fancy (and my wallet).
Well, maybe they should add stuff to the c-store that Trekkies want, like bridges from TNG, Voyager, the TOS movies, and Enterprise, a T-5 Constitution class ship, skants, playable Romulan, Caradassian, and Ferengi factions, et cetera.
Before F2P, I purchased almost every ship in the c-store. Now I buy nothing other than what I get with my stipend.
The only reason I have not gotten the Vesta 3-pack is no unique bridge - come on Cryptic - such a hyped ship and no new bridge?? WTF??
Don't the last few lock-box ships have their own bridge? Is this what Cryptic is trying to convey their priority is?
That may be true, but that also does not mean that current prices are in fact what the "correct" price. It dipped to 85:1 for about a day and then shot back up to 89:1. It hasn't stabilized
Not just to you, but since you actually said it:
The prices change, throughout the day. I've seen you folks complaining that's it down to whatever, and then when I actually get on and play it's six or seven dil higher :P When I play at different times of the day, the prices are different. Clearly, the Europeans are buying all the zen, driving prices up
I agree. My c-store purchases slowed and almost stopped since F2P. I'd like to see some of the above added to the game for purchase.
I suppose it's cheaper and easier for Cryptic to create "new" 2409 areas instead of recreating canon ones. For 2409 they never have to study canon specs and never have to go back and fix canon errors. Good for them but it's not what tickles my fancy (and my wallet).
Keep in mind that they have to get anything canon they do past CBS. Plus in the shows they rarely revisited the established past unless it was for special episodes. Even Enterprise strove to do new things... They didn't do it very well since prequel suggests working towards an established past.
While it might be fun to run around Ceti Alpha V looking for brain slugs and vaguely ethnic augments, but too much of the game is backwards looking as it is.
I think he just wants more costume elements though. I always think those are cheap and fairly cost effective - especially given the amount of components that already exist in Champions Online. Sell us shiny comm badges! We'll buy them!
...? Where have they announced new lockbox and ships?
Well, not official yet but there were a number of posts from the devs mentioning an upcoming dominion lockbox and new ships to be released in the next weeks.
In the same week, I sold Zen at 100:1, and then bought Zen at 89:1
It hasn't negatively affected me either, since I don't normally use the Dil Exchange.
Doesn't affect my point that we can compare similar Dil-cost items with Zen-cost items to determine an "intended" exchange rate.
The Zen-store Combat Environmental Suits are 700 Zen each.
The Steel/Yellow Trip Environmental Suits are 350,000 Dil. 500:1?
The Orange Environmental Suits are 80,000 Dil. 114:1?
With all the prices of dilithium on a downward spiral, I think I can now guess why I walk into the local Gamestop only to find that one guy bought all the cards they had in stock... And what game those cards went into...
*sings* "I like Gammera! He's so neat!!! He is full of turtle meat!!!"
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
"Fair" depends on whether you are buying ships with dilithium, or with zen.
When the cost of zen is 85 dilithium for 1 zen, I'm more likely to buy zen ships using dilithium, and to forgo dilithium ships. When zen costs 300 dilithium for 1 zen, I'm more likely to buy dilithium ships with my dilithium, and buy zen ships using purchased-for-cash zen.
There is no situation that is unfair to me.
Just quoting this because it's absolutely correct.
Comments
No, but then I'm not willing to pay $20 or $25 for the VA level ships either. Which is why all my guys had been planning to just run around in lv40 ships forever. But then the Breen ship happened.
(Of course, now that I was able to get a bunch of Zen by selling Dil, I may actually end up buying a ship. But not by laying out $ for it. I have bought zen - and sub time - but I put it into many smaller utility things - like character slots, inventory space, doff capacity, etc.)
I've been mostly arguing the concepts here for the sake of it. My personal view? Paying $ to turn into Dil is something you'd never catch me doing. I'd much rather spend a bit of time on something, instead of going all Instant Gratification and throwing cash at the "problem".
In the end, the correct price is what the market will bear. If enough Zen sellers dislike getting so little Dil for their zen, they'll stop selling. And the price will go up. Again, if there's still Zen out there selling at that price, it's not the Dil sellers fault - it's the other more-desperate-than-you Zen sellers, who want their Instant Dil Now Dammit more than you do.
And again - if market events (either normal sales, or conspiracy-claimed "manipulation") get to the point that the game stops making as much money, Cryptic & PWE will make changes. Because they're in it to make money. And again - market manipulation by a handful of whales? The devs have all that info - it's not secret trading to them. They can see it all, they know who's sitting on giant piles, they know who's moving giant piles - if it's harming their profits, they'll do something about it. If it's not..... no real reason they should care.
That may be true, but that also does not mean that current prices are in fact what the "correct" price. It dipped to 85:1 for about a day and then shot back up to 89:1. It hasn't stabilized - though I am no longer certain about the cause, given what theroyalfamily posted about the Dil Exchange.
edit: Wow now suddenly 26k disappeared and only 175k are left at 90.
serious uptrend, everybody sell all dilithium now!!
But who dictates who is rich in this economy? At one point people holding Zen were rich, now it is the Dilithium owners? Just because the current situation isn't as advantageous for Zen holders in the past doesn't make them poor, or the dilithium holders rich. And just because some people shuck a few extra bucks into the game doesn't make them anywhere near rich as well.
Right now there is no such "free market piracy", just a change in the valuation of two commodities. Was it "free market piracy" when it took 300 dil to get one Zen?
Its really easy to call in for "regulation" in a situation when one sees that it isn't beneficial for themselves (now or in the long run).
In time, this situation will correct itself on its own.
It also doesn't mean that the "current" prices AREN'T the correct price either. Markets stabilize over far longer periods than days or weeks. I would love for an enterprising individual actually make an exchange rate value graph from since the exchange started. I would be curious to look at the patterns it has taken. I remember sub-100 dil/Zen exchange rates in the beginning as well.
Didn't cost me a dime for my Fleet Excel'. My stipend from my sub' payed for what I needed and my efforts paid the rest.
Do a bunch of Borg STF's and turn the Omega points in for Dil'. I earned 40k in dil today off of just that with two toons.
You could just play the game to earn the dilithium. If you are a solo-fleet, I'm not feeling your pain.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
"Fair" depends on whether you are buying ships with dilithium, or with zen.
When the cost of zen is 85 dilithium for 1 zen, I'm more likely to buy zen ships using dilithium, and to forgo dilithium ships. When zen costs 300 dilithium for 1 zen, I'm more likely to buy dilithium ships with my dilithium, and buy zen ships using purchased-for-cash zen.
There is no situation that is unfair to me.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
I was purely going by his hypothetical situation where someone would use all real money to buy a ship and outfit the ship -something Cryptic would LOVE everyone to do.
The reason that the low price is concerning is that Cryptic needs money - they have people to pay and bills to pay - a lot of that depends on people buying Zen with real money - if those people stop doing that this game we all love is in trouble.
Well, maybe they should add stuff to the c-store that Trekkies want, like bridges from TNG, Voyager, the TOS movies, and Enterprise, a T-5 Constitution class ship, skants, playable Romulan, Caradassian, and Ferengi factions, et cetera.
Before F2P, I purchased almost every ship in the c-store. Now I buy nothing other than what I get with my stipend.
I agree. My c-store purchases slowed and almost stopped since F2P. I'd like to see some of the above added to the game for purchase.
I suppose it's cheaper and easier for Cryptic to create "new" 2409 areas instead of recreating canon ones. For 2409 they never have to study canon specs and never have to go back and fix canon errors. Good for them but it's not what tickles my fancy (and my wallet).
The only reason I have not gotten the Vesta 3-pack is no unique bridge - come on Cryptic - such a hyped ship and no new bridge?? WTF??
Don't the last few lock-box ships have their own bridge? Is this what Cryptic is trying to convey their priority is?
Not just to you, but since you actually said it:
The prices change, throughout the day. I've seen you folks complaining that's it down to whatever, and then when I actually get on and play it's six or seven dil higher :P When I play at different times of the day, the prices are different. Clearly, the Europeans are buying all the zen, driving prices up
Keep in mind that they have to get anything canon they do past CBS. Plus in the shows they rarely revisited the established past unless it was for special episodes. Even Enterprise strove to do new things... They didn't do it very well since prequel suggests working towards an established past.
While it might be fun to run around Ceti Alpha V looking for brain slugs and vaguely ethnic augments, but too much of the game is backwards looking as it is.
Holidays are over. Holiday event will be done soon and everyone has their Breen ships. More people are farming again.
... and a new lockbox and ships have been announced. People will farm zen now as long as its dirt cheap.
...? Where have they announced new lockbox and ships?
Well, not official yet but there were a number of posts from the devs mentioning an upcoming dominion lockbox and new ships to be released in the next weeks.
In the same week, I sold Zen at 100:1, and then bought Zen at 89:1
It hasn't negatively affected me either, since I don't normally use the Dil Exchange.
Doesn't affect my point that we can compare similar Dil-cost items with Zen-cost items to determine an "intended" exchange rate.
The Zen-store Combat Environmental Suits are 700 Zen each.
The Steel/Yellow Trip Environmental Suits are 350,000 Dil. 500:1?
The Orange Environmental Suits are 80,000 Dil. 114:1?
*shrug*
Nooooo! I'm this -> <- close to a doff pack!
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
He's buying pretty dresses for his half-naked anime girls in PWI.
IT's GOING BACK DOWN!!
Just quoting this because it's absolutely correct.
He's dead, Jim.
You don't need to sell Zen to make all your dream come true, just vote for Pedro.