I think all the anger, exasperation, and derision we're seeing stems from a lot of people suddenly finding themselves priced out of the Dil market.
Before S7 their mental cost/benefit equation was good enough but the recent scarcity of Dil has shifted that cost/benefit equation and now some non "whales" find themselves priced right out.
I understand that, I really do... my LTS was pre F2P after all. Unfortunately STO is further sliding towards polarizing its players into the "Whales" and "Not ONE penny!" camps. This is actually pretty common in F2P tittles since over time being in the middle tends to be thoroughly unsatisfying.
My advice to everyone, get used to getting less bang for your buck or decide to not spend a penny more.
Edit: It occurs to me I haven't mentioned it before, but there really is NOTHING wrong with someone deciding to pay (to what some are outrageous prices) for things in the game. The truth is a significant amount of high earners simply don't have the time to farm. What they choose to spend during their few hours of free time is really none of our concern. They are certainly appreciated by their fleets if tehy choose to spend in the fleet proyects.
I realize it spurs Cryptic on to make the game more and more expensive, and while that's not good for us its not the fault of the "whales" either. By now we all should have the memo that most F2P tittles are not places where you can stay for the long haul, so when STO gets outside your own price/time range you should be prepared to cut your loses and leave . I'm just glad its not to my limits yet.
Free Market Economics is the rich person's version of Communism.
So much fail.
The two completely contradict each other. Communism demonize the rich and wealth. The rich person version of Communism is still a philosophy that hate rich people.
Communism creates rich people (party leaders) and poor people (everyone else)
Capitalism creates rich people (Bosses) and poor people (Everyone else)
from a distance its very hard to tell them apart
I know of a few people who do it to fund their fleet projects. To buy and exchange at this rate though, considering the past numbers, is not a good idea. I haven't been in the game all that long and the highest I ever saw was about 165. If you say it was higher, I believe you. I think there may be a swing eventually as more and more people see the numbers drop. They may go back to traditional means of acquiring dil instead of trading zen for it.
Olivia, your pic is totally unfair to every other woman on here. Ha ha.
Ok, back on topic. I buy about $20 to $50 in Zen every few months as a Lifer to buy Dilth on the exchange. But this thread has opened my eyes that I may have been wasting my money as it's no longer the days of 1 zen for 224 to 256 Dilth. Like all others apparently I had since decided to hoard not just the little Dil I have with the change to Investigate Officer Daily and some others, but now I am hoarding my $56+ in Zen too.
I think there may be a swing eventually as more and more people see the numbers drop. They may go back to traditional means of acquiring dil instead of trading zen for it.
I have to disagree.
With the way the model is right now, here's my opinion:
As long as the Dil requirements keep increasing and more time to hit the cap on a single character, it will drive away the Zen buyers for Dil, since it also drives away those who could hold onto some Dil for their pockets, while still contributing to fleet projects. This leads to the Zen/Dil exchange to keep dropping. This leaves less income for the company(s), b/c the paying player-base will turn into more of a casual F2P crowd.
TLDR:
Less F2P players = less Dil.
Less Dill = less P2P players.
More P2P players going F2P = less income.
So much fail.
The two completely contradict each other. Communism demonize the rich and wealth. The rich person version of Communism is still a philosophy that hate rich people.
As I understand it, the person to whom you were responding argued that they're both fairy tales, because in actual practice, Humans Don't Work That Way.
(There are a whole lot of -isms that look very good on paper, but fall apart when exposed to actual people.)
Olivia, your pic is totally unfair to every other woman on here. Ha ha.
Ok, back on topic. I buy about $20 to $50 in Zen every few months as a Lifer to buy Dilth on the exchange. But this thread has opened my eyes that I may have been wasting my money as it's no longer the days of 1 zen for 224 to 256 Dilth. Like all others apparently I had since decided to hoard not just the little Dil I have with the change to Investigate Officer Daily and some others, but now I am hoarding my $56+ in Zen too.
Thank you for this thread.
Your welcome. Really my point is that Cryptic should do what every gov't in the world does - including the US gov't and support their currency.
Actually real gov't inflate and deflate their currency all the time for various reasons - US is currently devaluing the US dollar to make it's Colossal foriegn debt less of a burden - but that is a whole different topic.
What I can't understand is why Cryptic is devaluing their currency - yes people have to spend more real dollars to get the dilthium - but surely by this point most of the people who were buying with real dollars have cut back or stopped? At some point people will stop buying Zen with real dollars all together as it is only worth it to the super wealthy - and I am sure they don't make up the bulk of the players. Even then the super rich tend to value money more and would see the diminishing return on their investment.
A lot of fleets are already at a standstill or crawl.
It seems to have stalled at 102 at the moment, I've a bit of dil being sold at 100 which has yet to be snapped up, but at this rate I imagine it will be 100 and below in a day or two, but I can't see it going below 90.
Here's hoping it swings back so I can sell my un-needed zen for great profit :P
Your welcome. Really my point is that Cryptic should do what every gov't in the world does - including the US gov't and support their currency.
Actually real gov't inflate and deflate their currency all the time for various reasons - US is currently devaluing the US dollar to make it's Colossal foriegn debt less of a burden - but that is a whole different topic.
What I can't understand is why Cryptic is devaluing their currency - yes people have to spend more real dollars to get the dilthium - but surely by this point most of the people who were buying with real dollars have cut back or stopped? At some point people will stop buying Zen with real dollars all together as it is only worth it to the super wealthy - and I am sure they don't make up the bulk of the players. Even then the super rich tend to value money more and would see the diminishing return on their investment.
A lot of fleets are already at a standstill or crawl.
I just don't get it.
I think they are milking a small percentage of very rich players, and those desperate to complete things.
Thank you for restoring my faith in the reading comprehension skills of the players, Mr.Mudd.
A lot of people still haven't after almost 100 years realized the difference between the utopian dream described in the communist manifesto and the corruption of it in Marxist-Leninism which in reality is no more than fascism by another name and equally totalitarian in scope and practice to Nazism.
Of course the ignorance of such is largely due to influential Plutocrats in compromised democracies needing a popular enemy to rail against.
Frankly Marx was a greedy self serving vain man (yes really) who wanted to be famous
Lenin was a Drunk who was a Good public speaker
Stalin was a failed candidate for the priesthood
and mao was of course easily led
Sorry but I did political science and economics as well as history at school
and all of them are a JOKE
I just don't know who is buying the Zen with real dollars - I can't imagine many of the people that were around for the 200/1+ days is still doing it(of course there are lots of people that have more money then sense :eek:)
Just remember the following - no Zen infused into the market is "Free". SOMEONE paid real cash for it at some point - whether they bought it directly with cash; or are subbing at $10 - $15 a month (the 500 Zen stipend is Cryptic basically taking $5.00 of the top and converting that to Zen for the player.) Even if it's a LTSer (like me) they paid a lump sum of cash at some point that went into Cryptic's coffers.
So, yes, while players can and do get their Zen by trading Dilithium on the exchange; someone at some point paid real money for that Zen.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Frankly Marx was a greedy self serving vain man (yes really) who wanted to be famous
Lenin was a Drunk who was a Good public speaker
Stalin was a failed candidate for the priesthood
and mao was of course easily led
Sorry but I did political science and economics as well as history at school
and all of them are a JOKE
Actually Das Capital is a rather good read from an economics aspect. Much of what people understand about Capitalism actually is derived from that 3 volume work rather ironically. Their personalities don't concern me as much as the ideas.
And other than a psycho-historical insight into the way their thought processes worked their personalities are to do with a biographical interest than an economic one.
Stalins rather brutal upbringing and the poverty within his family as well as natural rebelliousness towards the Russian and Orthadox hegemony is a lot more informative on his later life than just the rather simplistic "failed priest" statement you just made.
What I do like is that the Exchange is showing us exactly how "hands off" markets work: Boom. Bust. Boom. Bust. A handful of uber rich survive. The rest eat dirt.
So smile, cranky Zen sellers. This is the "free market" you wanted working as its supposed to.
Yes...the dilithium ratio is now 100 dilithium to 1 zen. However, on the flipside the cost for dilithum really isn't that much. Pre-season six, dilithium to zen was around 300 dilithium for 1 cryptic point. However, note that at that time it was dilithium to Cryptic points. 1 zen is 4/5 a Cryptic point. Therefore the market was really around 240 dilithium for 1 zen.
Players buying dilithium on the exchange are effectively buying another player's time and their refinement cap. Now, pre-season six and under the 8000 dilithium cap, a player could make 33 zen a day for 2-4 hours of work. That is about 8.25-16.5 zen an hour or $0.0825 - $0.165 an hour for a player's dilithium grind. Think about it, would you want to work 2-4 hours a day just to earn $0.33? Yet many players used the console clicker to get around this. They created alts to speed up the grind.
However, with season six, the dilithium costs were so great and it forced the cost of dilithium back to 150 dilithium to 1 zen. That is 53 zen for 8000 dilithium after 2-4 hours of dilithium grinding. That is $0.1325 - $0.265 for an hour of grinding. Better, but most still continued to simply use the console clicker to get around the dailies/STF grinding.
Then season seven rolls out and no more console clicker for free dilithium. Bam, the economy takes a nose dive to 100 dilithium to 1 zen. Under the refinement cap that is 80 zen for 8000 dilithium. Only $0.80 to obtain another player's daily 8000. There is also one other significant improvement. Running 5 elite STFs will net a player well over the refinement cap. My personal record for this is 80 minutes, though I usually run cure ground elite, so that adds time. (Don't look at me that way, my favorite STF is cure ground elite)
There is one snag to this fast dilithium, elite STFs aren't easy, they require practice and hard work from every player on the team to succeed. It also requires players to run at least 1 ground mission for maximum speed. (KA ground elite in seven minutes anyone?) Very few players are willing to improve to a point where they run elite STF missions, much less ground STFs.
What I do like is that the Exchange is showing us exactly how "hands off" markets work: Boom. Bust. Boom. Bust. A handful of uber rich survive. The rest eat dirt.
So smile, cranky Zen sellers. This is the "free market" you wanted working as its supposed to.
Yes...the dilithium ratio is now 100 dilithium to 1 zen. However, on the flipside the cost for dilithum really isn't that much. Pre-season six, dilithium to zen was around 300 dilithium for 1 cryptic point. However, note that at that time it was dilithium to Cryptic points. 1 zen is 4/5 a Cryptic point. Therefore the market was really around 240 dilithium for 1 zen.
Players buying dilithium on the exchange are effectively buying another player's time and their refinement cap. Now, pre-season six and under the 8000 dilithium cap, a player could make 33 zen a day for 2-4 hours of work. That is about 8.25-16.5 zen an hour or $0.0825 - $0.165 an hour for a player's dilithium grind. Think about it, would you want to work 2-4 hours a day just to earn $0.33? Yet many players used the console clicker to get around this. They created alts to speed up the grind.
However, with season six, the dilithium costs were so great and it forced the cost of dilithium back to 150 dilithium to 1 zen. That is 53 zen for 8000 dilithium after 2-4 hours of dilithium grinding. That is $0.1325 - $0.265 for an hour of grinding. Better, but most still continued to simply use the console clicker to get around the dailies/STF grinding.
Then season seven rolls out and no more console clicker for free dilithium. Bam, the economy takes a nose dive to 100 dilithium to 1 zen. Under the refinement cap that is 80 zen for 8000 dilithium. Only $0.80 to obtain another player's daily 8000. There is also one other significant improvement. Running 5 elite STFs will net a player well over the refinement cap. My personal record for this is 80 minutes, though I usually run cure ground elite, so that adds time. (Don't look at me that way, my favorite STF is cure ground elite)
There is one snag to this fast dilithium, elite STFs aren't easy, they require practice and hard work from every player on the team to succeed. It also requires players to run at least 1 ground mission for maximum speed. (KA ground elite in seven minutes anyone?) Very few players are willing to improve to a point where they run elite STF missions, much less ground STFs.
Thank you for bringing this back on topic. Let's try and keep it there.
my only real disappointment in the market falling is it destroyed a profit potential. a few months ago I started with 1.5k zen, and through buying and selling on the market I increased that amount to roughly 10k zen (course I was doing estfs and such and augmenting my surplus through dilithium as well) however with the market in a steady decline, kinda hard to turn a profit on it in that regard.
I will say, though, that so long as people keep putting zen up to sell as low as it is and will continue to go, i'll be more than happy to buy it up on the cheep, in keeping with my desire to never open my wallet for PWE again. So really for me, its win win. I'll let some other fool buy me cstore ships and stuff =p
I think it was good to get rid of the 1-click foundry missions for officer report, but I fear that easy 1440 dilithium a day played a big part in keeping dilithium cheaper.
Cryptic went with the "slow and steady" way with breen ship.
You dont have to do much, but you get rewarded for logging in on 25 days during that event.
Thats kinda like the Officer Report was before and I think something like this should be back to stabelize the dilitium price.
Maybe not a one-click thing where you can log out in front of, but maybe something which doesnt take long and involves some traveling. Like picking something up and deliver it to a random location.
This is just a market trend that will last until Cryptic puts some item(s) in the C-Store that everybody wants.
Once that happens, the sheeple will be climbing all over each other to get said item(s) and the ratio will go back up in favor of Zen.
Or forget the lobi store and move everything in it to the c-store. Make the lockboxes give out everything the have now except lobi, instead give back a few zen.
I'd buy more zen if I didn't have to spend them to open lockboxes to get some items from the lobi store.
Or forget the lobi store and move everything in it to the c-store. Make the lockboxes give out everything the have now except lobi, instead give back a few zen.
I'd buy more zen if I didn't have to spend them to open lockboxes to get some items from the lobi store.
As long as players keep spending $50 on keys to get enough Lobi for a $5 item, the Lobi store ain't going anywhere.
Comments
I find the idea that it's a "free market"... Hilarious, well the general notion that a market is ever truly free is also down-right laughable.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
Free Market Economics is the rich person's version of Communism. A fantasy economic model that ignores the humans that use it.
And by "disturbing" I meant, "Hilariously hypocritical."
Lol! How appropriate!
I think all the anger, exasperation, and derision we're seeing stems from a lot of people suddenly finding themselves priced out of the Dil market.
Before S7 their mental cost/benefit equation was good enough but the recent scarcity of Dil has shifted that cost/benefit equation and now some non "whales" find themselves priced right out.
I understand that, I really do... my LTS was pre F2P after all. Unfortunately STO is further sliding towards polarizing its players into the "Whales" and "Not ONE penny!" camps. This is actually pretty common in F2P tittles since over time being in the middle tends to be thoroughly unsatisfying.
My advice to everyone, get used to getting less bang for your buck or decide to not spend a penny more.
Edit: It occurs to me I haven't mentioned it before, but there really is NOTHING wrong with someone deciding to pay (to what some are outrageous prices) for things in the game. The truth is a significant amount of high earners simply don't have the time to farm. What they choose to spend during their few hours of free time is really none of our concern. They are certainly appreciated by their fleets if tehy choose to spend in the fleet proyects.
I realize it spurs Cryptic on to make the game more and more expensive, and while that's not good for us its not the fault of the "whales" either. By now we all should have the memo that most F2P tittles are not places where you can stay for the long haul, so when STO gets outside your own price/time range you should be prepared to cut your loses and leave
So much fail.
The two completely contradict each other. Communism demonize the rich and wealth. The rich person version of Communism is still a philosophy that hate rich people.
Capitalism creates rich people (Bosses) and poor people (Everyone else)
from a distance its very hard to tell them apart
Olivia, your pic is totally unfair to every other woman on here. Ha ha.
Ok, back on topic. I buy about $20 to $50 in Zen every few months as a Lifer to buy Dilth on the exchange. But this thread has opened my eyes that I may have been wasting my money as it's no longer the days of 1 zen for 224 to 256 Dilth. Like all others apparently I had since decided to hoard not just the little Dil I have with the change to Investigate Officer Daily and some others, but now I am hoarding my $56+ in Zen too.
Thank you for this thread.
I have to disagree.
With the way the model is right now, here's my opinion:
As long as the Dil requirements keep increasing and more time to hit the cap on a single character, it will drive away the Zen buyers for Dil, since it also drives away those who could hold onto some Dil for their pockets, while still contributing to fleet projects. This leads to the Zen/Dil exchange to keep dropping. This leaves less income for the company(s), b/c the paying player-base will turn into more of a casual F2P crowd.
TLDR:
Less F2P players = less Dil.
Less Dill = less P2P players.
More P2P players going F2P = less income.
As I understand it, the person to whom you were responding argued that they're both fairy tales, because in actual practice, Humans Don't Work That Way.
(There are a whole lot of -isms that look very good on paper, but fall apart when exposed to actual people.)
Your welcome. Really my point is that Cryptic should do what every gov't in the world does - including the US gov't and support their currency.
Actually real gov't inflate and deflate their currency all the time for various reasons - US is currently devaluing the US dollar to make it's Colossal foriegn debt less of a burden - but that is a whole different topic.
What I can't understand is why Cryptic is devaluing their currency - yes people have to spend more real dollars to get the dilthium - but surely by this point most of the people who were buying with real dollars have cut back or stopped? At some point people will stop buying Zen with real dollars all together as it is only worth it to the super wealthy - and I am sure they don't make up the bulk of the players. Even then the super rich tend to value money more and would see the diminishing return on their investment.
A lot of fleets are already at a standstill or crawl.
I just don't get it.
Here's hoping it swings back so I can sell my un-needed zen for great profit :P
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My Ship Builds: USS Conqueror, HMS Victorious, HMS Concord, ISS Queen Elizabeth, Black Widow III
Click here to view my DeviantArt.
I think they are milking a small percentage of very rich players, and those desperate to complete things.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
Thank you for restoring my faith in the reading comprehension skills of the players, Mr.Mudd.
A lot of people still haven't after almost 100 years realized the difference between the utopian dream described in the communist manifesto and the corruption of it in Marxist-Leninism which in reality is no more than fascism by another name and equally totalitarian in scope and practice to Nazism.
Of course the ignorance of such is largely due to influential Plutocrats in compromised democracies needing a popular enemy to rail against.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
Lenin was a Drunk who was a Good public speaker
Stalin was a failed candidate for the priesthood
and mao was of course easily led
Sorry but I did political science and economics as well as history at school
and all of them are a JOKE
Just remember the following - no Zen infused into the market is "Free". SOMEONE paid real cash for it at some point - whether they bought it directly with cash; or are subbing at $10 - $15 a month (the 500 Zen stipend is Cryptic basically taking $5.00 of the top and converting that to Zen for the player.) Even if it's a LTSer (like me) they paid a lump sum of cash at some point that went into Cryptic's coffers.
So, yes, while players can and do get their Zen by trading Dilithium on the exchange; someone at some point paid real money for that Zen.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Actually Das Capital is a rather good read from an economics aspect. Much of what people understand about Capitalism actually is derived from that 3 volume work rather ironically. Their personalities don't concern me as much as the ideas.
And other than a psycho-historical insight into the way their thought processes worked their personalities are to do with a biographical interest than an economic one.
Stalins rather brutal upbringing and the poverty within his family as well as natural rebelliousness towards the Russian and Orthadox hegemony is a lot more informative on his later life than just the rather simplistic "failed priest" statement you just made.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
when he failed he decided to Hurt the church
pretty much sums it up
Not a nice man
Lol @ summing up the millions of people he either directly or indirectly killed as being a naughty man that didn't like the church.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
so "not a nice man" is as far as I can really go
he was among the top three "not nice" people in the 20th century
even less nice than some of the people people think of as "impolite"
So smile, cranky Zen sellers. This is the "free market" you wanted working as its supposed to.
Players buying dilithium on the exchange are effectively buying another player's time and their refinement cap. Now, pre-season six and under the 8000 dilithium cap, a player could make 33 zen a day for 2-4 hours of work. That is about 8.25-16.5 zen an hour or $0.0825 - $0.165 an hour for a player's dilithium grind. Think about it, would you want to work 2-4 hours a day just to earn $0.33? Yet many players used the console clicker to get around this. They created alts to speed up the grind.
However, with season six, the dilithium costs were so great and it forced the cost of dilithium back to 150 dilithium to 1 zen. That is 53 zen for 8000 dilithium after 2-4 hours of dilithium grinding. That is $0.1325 - $0.265 for an hour of grinding. Better, but most still continued to simply use the console clicker to get around the dailies/STF grinding.
Then season seven rolls out and no more console clicker for free dilithium. Bam, the economy takes a nose dive to 100 dilithium to 1 zen. Under the refinement cap that is 80 zen for 8000 dilithium. Only $0.80 to obtain another player's daily 8000. There is also one other significant improvement. Running 5 elite STFs will net a player well over the refinement cap. My personal record for this is 80 minutes, though I usually run cure ground elite, so that adds time. (Don't look at me that way, my favorite STF is cure ground elite)
There is one snag to this fast dilithium, elite STFs aren't easy, they require practice and hard work from every player on the team to succeed. It also requires players to run at least 1 ground mission for maximum speed. (KA ground elite in seven minutes anyone?) Very few players are willing to improve to a point where they run elite STF missions, much less ground STFs.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Thank you for bringing this back on topic. Let's try and keep it there.
I will say, though, that so long as people keep putting zen up to sell as low as it is and will continue to go, i'll be more than happy to buy it up on the cheep, in keeping with my desire to never open my wallet for PWE again. So really for me, its win win. I'll let some other fool buy me cstore ships and stuff =p
Cryptic went with the "slow and steady" way with breen ship.
You dont have to do much, but you get rewarded for logging in on 25 days during that event.
Thats kinda like the Officer Report was before and I think something like this should be back to stabelize the dilitium price.
Maybe not a one-click thing where you can log out in front of, but maybe something which doesnt take long and involves some traveling. Like picking something up and deliver it to a random location.
Once that happens, the sheeple will be climbing all over each other to get said item(s) and the ratio will go back up in favor of Zen.
Or, perhaps, a 20% off everything sale.
Like the one they usually have every holiday season?!
Or forget the lobi store and move everything in it to the c-store. Make the lockboxes give out everything the have now except lobi, instead give back a few zen.
I'd buy more zen if I didn't have to spend them to open lockboxes to get some items from the lobi store.
As long as players keep spending $50 on keys to get enough Lobi for a $5 item, the Lobi store ain't going anywhere.