If you don't like the quick foundry missions then don't do them. It not an exploit as it's just using the technology as it can be used. The mission is short but so what? If each foundry mission was a normal length mission then it'd be better to do a daily or an STF.
Ultimately it's optional, don't like it, don't do it. Why should it be taken away from those who do like it just because you consider it an exploit? It's a multiplayer game so it's for everyone. If you don't like it, too bad. Other people do.
If you don't like the quick foundry missions then don't do them. It not an exploit as it's just using the technology as it can be used.
That requires logic :rolleyes:
For 1440 dilithum people want a system to be changed .No wonder in s7 the borg engine or deflector are 14,000dilithium each....people asked it.
You know the Doffs General Recruitments will cost 1000 Dil to run.
So that help offset those Alt grinders?
[SIGPIC]Handle: @kirian_darkstar
Registered: Oct/2009 , LTS : Feb/2011
Fleets: Warriors of the Phoenix, Kirian Industries[/SIGPIC] Three years and still no Captain Klaa hair...
That requires logic :rolleyes:
For 1440 dilithum people want a system to be changed .No wonder in s7 the borg engine or deflector are 14,000dilithium each....people asked it.
I think you could be correct - people with 20+ alts running this ever day could be seriously altering the data that cryptic got on how much dilth players were grinding every day and could have been part of the reasons since S6 for the increase in dilth sinks.
Would have been better to elimiate exploits like this then increase dilth cost elsewhere. I am sure if they reduced dilth costs on many things and removed the console clicker daily - few people would care - if fact most would prefer the console clicker daily to be removed if they reduced dilth cost in a lot of other places!
I will bet that come season 7 we will no longer have the "Quickie" click missions, and that Dilithium costs still go up.
Thats my prediction*
If it's not the quicky-click mission, then someone will write a 'destroy enemy ship' mission, and you'll be shooting at a shuttle for 30 seconds.
The quick mission will always be here in some form, so unless they kill the reason to try foundry missions (dilithium rewards) people will still do them over Trailus, emancipation and such.
If it's not the quicky-click mission, then someone will write a 'destroy enemy ship' mission, and you'll be shooting at a shuttle for 30 seconds.
The quick mission will always be here in some form, so unless they kill the reason to try foundry missions (dilithium rewards) people will still do them over Trailus, emancipation and such.
I suggest you read my original post about the Neverwinter foundry reward system - they use a time based reward system + some other metrics. There are already missions that are not "console clickers" but you fly around for a few minutes and scan something - these would also be affected if Mr Shahl desided to use Cryptic's Neverwinter style daily mission system.
I'd just like to point out that Cryptic themselfs put a console clicky mission in game , in the form of the Lore missions at the academy's .
The Fed one can be completed under 20 seconds for 480 dil .
Now cry me a river for a Foundry clicky mission that rewards a bit more and takes longer than 20 secs to set up/find/complete .
Levi3 ... sometimes ... sometimes you're trying to be too smart for your own good .
Or is that "our" own good .
Again, IMHO, the XP part is excessive but the dilithium and fleet marks are something that should be there as a "thank you for logging in" bonus. When the Foundry's new reward system is in place, just eliminate Investigate Officer Reports but make Officer of the Watch a 1440 dilithium and 50 fleet mark mission.
Some folks will complain, but it's sort of like yelling at a cashier for installing anti-theft devices in his store, after patrons have spent months pocketing candy bars.
"You mean I actually have to pay for the candy bar now? That's not fair!"
"You mean I actually have to play foundry for the 1440? That's not fair!"
Some folks will complain, but it's sort of like yelling at a cashier for installing anti-theft devices in his store, after patrons have spent months pocketing candy bars.
"You mean I actually have to pay for the candy bar now? That's not fair!"
"You mean I actually have to play foundry for the 1440? That's not fair!"
Are you really comparing stealing candy bars to gaining a tiny amount of in game currency via a method the devs have (unofficially) approved.:rolleyes: I say unofficially because they know about it and haven't changed it by making a minimum length of foundry mission required.
The other poster mentions the Lore assignments. Do you consider them an exploit? If not then why not? They're made by Cryptic instead of a foundry author but, like I said, the foundry missions are known about but not removed. Targ heart farming missions were removed recently so the devs could easily remove them if they thought they were an exploit.
Are you really comparing stealing candy bars to gaining a tiny amount of in game currency via a method the devs have (unofficially) approved.:rolleyes: I say unofficially because they know about it and haven't changed it by making a minimum length of foundry mission required.
The other poster mentions the Lore assignments. Do you consider them an exploit? If not then why not? They're made by Cryptic instead of a foundry author but, like I said, the foundry missions are known about but not removed. Targ heart farming missions were removed recently so the devs could easily remove them if they thought they were an exploit.
Its not the console clicker that is an exploit per se - it's the people with 40/50/60 toons - just logging in and out of the alts doing it - 3 minute min per toon - could drop to 2 min per toon with the new system to allow you to switch alts without logging out.
max per account is 46 alts - but with two accounts you can go way over that.
so lets take a person with 46 alts x 2 min under season 7 logging system = 90 min approx
1 1/2 hours to earn 1440x46 or 66, 240dilth
Earning Sixty Six Thousand Dilthium in 1 1/2 hours is an EXPLOIT in my opinion - maybe Cryptic does not think so?
Any comment Mr Stahl?? Because if you don't think it is an exploit and have no plans to put Neverwinters system in place I would like to know so I can make full use of this "feature" log-in change come season 7!
Its not the console clicker that is an exploit per se - it's the people with 40/50/60 toons - just logging in and out of the alts doing it - 3 minute min per toon - could drop to 2 min per toon with the new system to allow you to switch alts without logging out.
max per account is 46 alts - but with two accounts you can go way over that.
so lets take a person with 46 alts x 2 min under season 7 logging system = 90 min approx
1 1/2 hours to earn 1440x46 or 66, 240dilth
Earning Sixty Six Thousand Dilthium in 1 1/2 hours is an EXPLOIT in my opinion - maybe Cryptic does not think so?
Any comment Mr Stahl?? Because if you don't think it is an exploit and have no plans to put Neverwinters system in place I would like to know so I can make full use of this "feature" log-in change come season 7!
Wow. How did they get all those alts?
I mean if they bought them all, then that would have cost them like 11,715 zen.
That's like $117.15.
Sure he could have done it grinding Dil daily, and selling said Dil to the players that were buying Dil With their Zen, thus contributing to the game economy, but 11,715zen at current prices is like 1,850,670 Dil.
[SIGPIC]Handle: @kirian_darkstar
Registered: Oct/2009 , LTS : Feb/2011
Fleets: Warriors of the Phoenix, Kirian Industries[/SIGPIC] Three years and still no Captain Klaa hair...
Are you really comparing stealing candy bars to gaining a tiny amount of in game currency via a method the devs have (unofficially) approved.:rolleyes: I say unofficially because they know about it and haven't changed it by making a minimum length of foundry mission required.
The other poster mentions the Lore assignments. Do you consider them an exploit? If not then why not? They're made by Cryptic instead of a foundry author but, like I said, the foundry missions are known about but not removed. Targ heart farming missions were removed recently so the devs could easily remove them if they thought they were an exploit.
According to your logic, the devs unofficially approve of all the bugs in the game, because they don't fix or remove those. Last time I checked, they didn't have time to remove the dueling pop-ups on Andoria. Obviously, the must "unofficially" approve of that half-arsed unfinished and unrevised element of the game.
On your other points:
Minimum length requires an in-game tech mechanic that does not yet exist in STO.
The lore assignment is what it is. It's not a "go take a course at the academy" where you can find a console that takes the exam for you.
The mission is: "Go play three foundry missions." It's not "hey you, go click three consoles and ignore the actual foundry missions." You're supposed to get rewarded for playing 3 player-authored missions, not 3 player-authored exploits of a dilithium give-away.
Each of my foundry missions took over 100 hours of work on my part. Nobody really plays them, because they just want to click 3 consoles in 5 minutes to get 1440 dilithium.
Real foundry authors have to put in a lot of work to make actual missions for this game. For the past year, we've been the only folks giving this game anything resembling a story, prior to season 7 (maybe).
You should get rewards for playing them, not avoiding them because of faulty-designed reward mechanic that is exploited.
If it's not the quicky-click mission, then someone will write a 'destroy enemy ship' mission, and you'll be shooting at a shuttle for 30 seconds.
The quick mission will always be here in some form, so unless they kill the reason to try foundry missions (dilithium rewards) people will still do them over Trailus, emancipation and such.
They have talked about putting other rewards in foundry missions. If they do that in season 7, they could easily just remove "Officer Reports" mission. Dont be shocked if that happens. I am Expecting it.
Each of my foundry missions took over 100 hours of work on my part. Nobody really plays them, because they just want to click 3 consoles in 5 minutes to get 1440 dilithium.
Real foundry authors have to put in a lot of work to make actual missions for this game. For the past year, we've been the only folks giving this game anything resembling a story, prior to season 7 (maybe).
Kirkfat, Your stories are awsome! I have played many, and many several times. You are one of the best authors out there. Just wanted you to know.
Leave them as they are. No one is getting harmed by them.
I disagree. When players have to choose: "Gee, do I take 5 minutes to click consoles for 1440 dil, or do I spend some real time playing community-authored missions to get the same reward?"
It harms the folks who took the time to try to put some Star Trek stories back in this game.
Its not the console clicker that is an exploit per se - it's the people with 40/50/60 toons - just logging in and out of the alts doing it - 3 minute min per toon - could drop to 2 min per toon with the new system to allow you to switch alts without logging out.
max per account is 46 alts - but with two accounts you can go way over that.
so lets take a person with 46 alts x 2 min under season 7 logging system = 90 min approx
1 1/2 hours to earn 1440x46 or 66, 240dilth
Earning Sixty Six Thousand Dilthium in 1 1/2 hours is an EXPLOIT in my opinion - maybe Cryptic does not think so?
Any comment Mr Stahl?? Because if you don't think it is an exploit and have no plans to put Neverwinters system in place I would like to know so I can make full use of this "feature" log-in change come season 7!
Don't forget the time needed to transfer the Dilithium taken in from the 46 (rather absurd) toons, to one toon for the lump total of 66k.
These fast missions have been available for over a year, and Cryptic is well aware that the average player can make 1440 easy Dilithium (every 21 hours). The only change Cryptic has made to the daily mission is add even MORE rewards (50 fleet marks) to it.
If Cryptic regarded this as a true "exploit", they wouldn't allow you to give people ideas on how to maximize its potential openly on the forums.
That's not to say that Cryptic won't reduce the rewards or remove them altogether, but Cryptic can only reduce the supply and increase the demand for Dilithium so far before they shoot themselves in the foot.
For the sake of the game, and the people who play it; I hope they don't.
Wow. How did they get all those alts?
I mean if they bought them all, then that would have cost them like 11,715 zen.
That's like $117.15.
Sure he could have done it grinding Dil daily, and selling said Dil to the players that were buying Dil With their Zen, thus contributing to the game economy, but 11,715zen at current prices is like 1,850,670 Dil.
I my example that would be covered in about 35 days - given you would want to do this with a gold account min to start with - so you would have at least 3 slots covered.
So after 35 days you play 1 1/2 hours and you have 66,000 dilth each and every day towards your other stuff - I say that's not a bad idea
that would be like doing what 100 STFs under the new system or like 8+ hrs of grinding.
I'll take the console clicking if I KNOW they are going to leave it in place come season 7
Don't forget the time needed to transfer the Dilithium taken in from the 46 (rather absurd) toons, to one toon for the lump total of 66k.
These fast missions have been available for over a year, and Cryptic is well aware that the average player can make 1440 easy Dilithium (every 21 hours). The only change Cryptic has made to the daily mission is add even MORE rewards (50 fleet marks) to it.
If Cryptic regarded this as a true "exploit", they wouldn't allow you to give people ideas on how to maximize its potential openly on the forums.
That's not to say that Cryptic won't reduce the rewards or remove them altogether, but Cryptic can only reduce the supply and increase the demand for Dilithium so far before they shoot themselves in the foot.
For the sake of the game, and the people who play it; I hope they don't.
Cryptic already HAS the new system that would eliminate this - if you read the OP and the link - they are using on Neverwinter - it's a brand new system that is time based - the question I am asking is will it be moved to STO as well?
The arguement tha this console clicker has been around for X amount of time and they have done nothing is MUTE:
The Neverwinter system that eliminates this is brand new and has only been used in Beta - so it's not like they had the same solution before that they have now.
It's a happy exploit that Cryptic should consider integrating into their design philosophy by transferring the rewards to Officer of the Watch, which under-rewards at present.
Just because dilithium is a "time currency" doesn't mean that all time is equal. In general, a good design for this kind of thing is to have the first few minutes be worth more and the value of player time to dwindle the more they play.
It's a happy exploit that Cryptic should consider integrating into their design philosophy by transferring the rewards to Officer of the Watch, which under-rewards at present.
Just because dilithium is a "time currency" doesn't mean that all time is equal. In general, a good design for this kind of thing is to have the first few minutes be worth more and the value of player time to dwindle the more they play.
What you are saying is eliminate the console clicker? Because this takes 10 sec to do all 3.
These fast missions have been available for over a year, and Cryptic is well aware that the average player can make 1440 easy Dilithium (every 21 hours). The only change Cryptic has made to the daily mission is add even MORE rewards (50 fleet marks) to it.
If Cryptic regarded this as a true "exploit", they wouldn't allow you to give people ideas on how to maximize its potential openly on the forums.
Well, let's see what the track record is with the Foundry. It took an entire season between 3 and 4 for the STO team to realize that maybe having someone on their team who can touch the Foundry might be a good thing.
Any change that improves the Foundry and its role in the game seems to take a bare minimum of 7-8 months to see the light of day, beyond very little things here and there.
Take the rewards system. Players complained for well over a year about the lack of rewards for folks who actually play the real missions. Dstahl finally came up with a plan and announced it in like May of this year.
Foundry rewards were coming well-before season 7, including maybe the ability to favorite an author.
It's November. Who knows how long before they can introduce the NW improvements that eliminate the exploit? Meanwhile, season 6 didn't really bring new Foundry features, beyond some cosmetic changes and the ultra-buggy multi-select (which shows no signs of getting fixed), and season 7 has ONE notable improvement (patrols), with almost nothing that we've been asking for for 2 years, except the ability to despawn NPCs. And guess what? That's entirely buggy due to baked in beam in animations.
So, yeah, something's been wrong and badly designed with the Foundry for well over a year, and folks at Cryptic are well-aware of it (maybe). I'm also not surprised that the sky is blue and people in the 50s smoked a lot.
Give this to the Officer of the Watch, and that one man with 46 alts in the same fleet can go TRIBBLE the system all he wants. I don't care.
Using the time-based reward system for the Foundry would be neat. After all, afking in a Foundry, just for 1440dil? Not worth the time except for again that guy with 46 alts on different accounts.
Limit the game accounts to 10 characters? Then F2P accounts will rule the day. The only way to fix this last exploit is to charge 20bucks when creating a new account, then have gameplay free.
But really, its the exploiters that kill the game for the other players. When left alone, they kill the economy, and when dealt with the measures hurt the normals more. We can't win.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
It's November. Who knows how long before they can introduce the NW improvements that eliminate the exploit? Meanwhile, season 6 didn't really bring new Foundry features, beyond some cosmetic changes and the ultra-buggy multi-select (which shows no signs of getting fixed), and season 7 has ONE notable improvement (patrols), with almost nothing that we've been asking for for 2 years, except the ability to despawn NPCs. And guess what? That entirely buggy due to baked in beam in animations.
.
This was something I just mentioned - the Neverwinter system to eliminate this "exploit" is brand new - it's only been operational for a very short time. I am just wondering if it will be implemented at STO - now that they got it working on the other side at Cryptic.
As long as there is a valuable reward for doing Foundry missions, someone will figure out the bare minimum effort required to get that reward. That's an undeniable reality. This "exploit" can't be eliminated; it can only be made annoying, and the problem with that is some short but non-exploitative Foundry missions will get caught in that net.
As long as there is a valuable reward for doing Foundry missions, someone will figure out the bare minimum effort required to get that reward. That's an undeniable reality. This "exploit" can't be eliminated; it can only be made annoying, and the problem with that is some short but non-exploitative Foundry missions will get caught in that net.
The only real potential exploit (that I can imagine) with the NW system is this:
When the rewards are based on the average play time of a mission, then an epic 2 hour mission should offer the best rewards. When folks realize that mission "X" offers the best gear, they will start to play it repeatedly, zooming through every dialogue as quickly as possible and avoiding any optional objectives.
They'll still have to kill enemies and do stuff, unless it's one of my diplomatic missions that takes about an hour to read, but 5 minutes to "f" through.
Over time, the 2 hour mission that gives the best stuff may suddenly have an average runtime of 1 hour, due to the zooming through it. My "read this for an hour" story will give TRIBBLE rewards due to grinders zooming through it.
That means that folks who spend the full time playing/reading the longer missions might get lesser rewards than a brand new mission that takes much less time to actually play.
Most likely, players who spent 2 hours playing a RogueEnterprise mission will leave a negative review, because the grinders devalued the reward.
But, once the grinders stop getting their shinies, they'll move along to devalue another 2 hour mission by zooming through it. Over time, the average play time of the mission should go back up, therefore increasing the reward. Then, the grinders will return to devalue it.
All of this, of course, is based on the assumption that maybe, one day, the improvements in NW's foundry get put in STO.
First of all, when they first came out with the foundry, I posted that if they did that people would find exploits and use them. They have and they have become part of the games landscape now and are universally used and accepted. Whether Cryptic likes it or not, having people log on daily and do the clicker missions gives people a reason to show up and play. Removing it now would create ripple affects that would hurt the game further and Cryptic doesnt need to do it. Cryptic put the onus of new content development in the players hands rather than doing it themselves and in doing so they opened the door for these "exploits" and indeed the need for them.
If people show up, say hi, chat a bit, and get 8000-1000 dilithium across 5 alts it doesnt hurt anybody. People with 40 alts and lots of time on their hands dont do clickers on all their alts every day. It seems to be the ones with 10-20 that get the most out if it.
Removing this mission would cause lots of ripple effects that Cryptic doesnt want. Im guessing that 35-50% of the dilithium in the game enters the game via clicker missions. Right now someone can go buy a zen point and get 150 dilithium or so on the dilithium exchange. Removing the greatest source of dilithium would sink the prices and I imagine that it wouldnt take long before zen traders would get 50 dilithium or less per zen they purchased. If they are getting less value for their money they have less incentive to buy zen. This probably is not a good thing for Cryptic or any of us. It will cost Cryptic tons of money if they remove this "exploit".
I personally will quit loading the 200K basic provision projects into our tabs. If the fleet runs out of ships then too bad. All those fleet modules that people would have bought at the cstore to buy ships will not be bought. Im not going to ask people to contribute 200,000 dilithium and up per project if dili becomes overly rare. Fleet ships seem to me to be mostly either novelty or pay to win. A tier 3 fleet Nova that is upgraded enough to be usable as a Tier 5 ship is novelty. A tier 5 fleet patrol escort is pay to win. Either way Cryptic makes money selling fleet ship modules. Flowing dilithium helps the process.
Additionally people say dilithium is easy to get but it really isnt. Starfleet Academy and Dilithium mining pay well but they absolutely bore me to tears. I like the Borg Red Alert invasions but it gets old killing the same ship over and over. Everyone likes doffs and they give a little dilithium but it takes hours for your missions to clear. STFs are seeing their dili payouts cut. The howls Cryptic didnt hear when dili payouts were nerfed via selling doffs, contraband, etc.. will grow much louder if Cryptic removes the clicker missions.
People will be more angry and concerned about efforts to grind doffs upwards as prices rise combined with payouts falling. This will become Cryptic style 1970s style staglfation at its worst
I hate to be a told you so, but Cryptic charging free to play players 200,000 dilithium for a RA ship was a huge mistake. Thousands of potential players and customers hit VA saw how much ships cost and just said well was fun for awhile - Cya. This alone was probably the biggest mistake in the f2p experience. Cryptic has since started including mirror universe ships in lock boxes and put RA ships back into affordability but it was a dollar short and a day late.
Clearly the game has become more grindy and its going down the wrong path. A gentlemen told me tonight that Grind is not a replacement for content. Sure people are bored, they need more to do, and making them grind gives them something to do. However, Halo 4 drops today and to suggest that there are other games with good content is not a stretch of the imagination. Cryptic is losing its fun factor in STO. They are pulling revenues from STO to build NWN and letting STO rot on the vine. Players in my fleets are telling me that Azure Nebula is fun but its not really all that different than Starbase Blockade. I think it will be fun novelty for them the first 30-50 times they do it and after that they will find other things to do with their lives.
Already, small fleets are hurting. I think people should join fleets to be with friends they like who share companionship and complimentary playstyle. But leaderboards and donations are causing huge stresses in many fleets. People that buy zen and convert to dilithium get angry they are carrying the load and those earning dilithium via "gameplay" are not. Small fleets have closed, others have boycotted and banned projects. Some fleets have merged with bigger fleets. Others are having huge fights. Happy is the fleet that chugs along and knocks off projects without conflict. Those fleets are rare. Every fleet has the guy that gives a lot and then demands a promotion based on it. Every fleet leader will tell you theyve lost players over dilithium and that when they try to recruit they often hear what level is your starbase? Fleets across the board are almost going berserk trying to attract more players and improve their revenue base for fleet projects. Anybody with a loner alt will tell you they get 8-10 invites an hour. Most fleet leaders will tell you they hate blind invites but the churn rate of players leaving the game forces them to find new players to keep fleet projects progressing and blind invites sometimes get you really good players. Removing huge amounts of dilithium from the game will increase these problems.
There are already huge new dilithium sinks and reduced dilithium payouts coming in season 7. 1400 dilithium in 3 minutes is going to seem huge compared with spending 30-60 minutes for 480 dili in an stf that most of the hardcore players have done several hundred times or more and many regular players cant win. Even so, I enjoy doing the stfs whether its maximizing a speed run with great players, or trying to pull pugs through a mission they often struggle to win. I can find something to challenge myself beyond more pew pew. 480 dili removes much incentive to do them as much as I currently do.
Let me say this over and over again. Increased grind is not a substitute for content. It just angers the players you have. You can debate whether dilithium is easy to get or not. Some people have more time than others. Some are better players. The right question to ask is this... Is grinding for dilithium fun? What missions pay out dilithium and do it honestly and are actually fun after the 35th time weve done them. The only time I hear people say they had fun is in a really smooth stf. You need to give people fun ways to earn dilithium if you are going to pull clickers and right now those arent around and stfs are getting paycuts.
You absolutely cannot remove more dilithium from the game unless you lower prices on items for dilithium, you pay out more dilithium, and you find ways that are truly fun to earn it. Already, its not here yet and fleet leaders across the board will tell you that season 7 is going to stick a knife in starbase projects and all that was done right in season 6. People will do more for themselves and less for their fleets ... its just how it goes ... you cant expect it to be different.
Therefore, I am against removing these. In fact I think they should double payouts to 3000 per clicker mission.
In summary for those that complain about a long post:
1. Competition for dilithium is already overly fierce - removing more of it creates problems.
2. It would be a body blow to those that buy zen to convert to dilithium. The value of dilithium would skyrocket because it would be much harder to get and the value of zen would fall because the price of zen would stay the same.
4. It would create stagflation with rising prices and reduced income
5. Many fleets and friendships would implode with natural polarizations occuring between those that give and those that dont
6. It forces players to grind missions they dont like to earn stuff they do - games already too grindy.
7. Fleet progression gets knifed in the gut again.
8. It polarizes the player base even moreso based on either those players that play heavily or buy zen and those that some refer to as casuals. The game needs to expand and not become out of reach for non - monied players or those that are casual players.
It would be an awful mistake to remove the top source of dilithium from the game but that said, Cryptic is used to making these kinds of stupid moves. Im sure they "think" that people would buy more zen because dilithium would cost more but overall ..... it gives less value for the money and customers just often look for another product to buy.
Comments
Ultimately it's optional, don't like it, don't do it. Why should it be taken away from those who do like it just because you consider it an exploit? It's a multiplayer game so it's for everyone. If you don't like it, too bad. Other people do.
That requires logic :rolleyes:
For 1440 dilithum people want a system to be changed .No wonder in s7 the borg engine or deflector are 14,000dilithium each....people asked it.
So that help offset those Alt grinders?
Registered: Oct/2009 , LTS : Feb/2011
Fleets: Warriors of the Phoenix, Kirian Industries[/SIGPIC]
Three years and still no Captain Klaa hair...
I think you could be correct - people with 20+ alts running this ever day could be seriously altering the data that cryptic got on how much dilth players were grinding every day and could have been part of the reasons since S6 for the increase in dilth sinks.
Would have been better to elimiate exploits like this then increase dilth cost elsewhere. I am sure if they reduced dilth costs on many things and removed the console clicker daily - few people would care - if fact most would prefer the console clicker daily to be removed if they reduced dilth cost in a lot of other places!
Thats my prediction*
If it's not the quicky-click mission, then someone will write a 'destroy enemy ship' mission, and you'll be shooting at a shuttle for 30 seconds.
The quick mission will always be here in some form, so unless they kill the reason to try foundry missions (dilithium rewards) people will still do them over Trailus, emancipation and such.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
I suggest you read my original post about the Neverwinter foundry reward system - they use a time based reward system + some other metrics. There are already missions that are not "console clickers" but you fly around for a few minutes and scan something - these would also be affected if Mr Shahl desided to use Cryptic's Neverwinter style daily mission system.
The Fed one can be completed under 20 seconds for 480 dil .
Now cry me a river for a Foundry clicky mission that rewards a bit more and takes longer than 20 secs to set up/find/complete .
Levi3 ... sometimes ... sometimes you're trying to be too smart for your own good .
Or is that "our" own good .
Some folks will complain, but it's sort of like yelling at a cashier for installing anti-theft devices in his store, after patrons have spent months pocketing candy bars.
"You mean I actually have to pay for the candy bar now? That's not fair!"
"You mean I actually have to play foundry for the 1440? That's not fair!"
Are you really comparing stealing candy bars to gaining a tiny amount of in game currency via a method the devs have (unofficially) approved.:rolleyes: I say unofficially because they know about it and haven't changed it by making a minimum length of foundry mission required.
The other poster mentions the Lore assignments. Do you consider them an exploit? If not then why not? They're made by Cryptic instead of a foundry author but, like I said, the foundry missions are known about but not removed. Targ heart farming missions were removed recently so the devs could easily remove them if they thought they were an exploit.
Its not the console clicker that is an exploit per se - it's the people with 40/50/60 toons - just logging in and out of the alts doing it - 3 minute min per toon - could drop to 2 min per toon with the new system to allow you to switch alts without logging out.
max per account is 46 alts - but with two accounts you can go way over that.
so lets take a person with 46 alts x 2 min under season 7 logging system = 90 min approx
1 1/2 hours to earn 1440x46 or 66, 240dilth
Earning Sixty Six Thousand Dilthium in 1 1/2 hours is an EXPLOIT in my opinion - maybe Cryptic does not think so?
Any comment Mr Stahl?? Because if you don't think it is an exploit and have no plans to put Neverwinters system in place I would like to know so I can make full use of this "feature" log-in change come season 7!
Wow. How did they get all those alts?
I mean if they bought them all, then that would have cost them like 11,715 zen.
That's like $117.15.
Sure he could have done it grinding Dil daily, and selling said Dil to the players that were buying Dil With their Zen, thus contributing to the game economy, but 11,715zen at current prices is like 1,850,670 Dil.
Registered: Oct/2009 , LTS : Feb/2011
Fleets: Warriors of the Phoenix, Kirian Industries[/SIGPIC]
Three years and still no Captain Klaa hair...
According to your logic, the devs unofficially approve of all the bugs in the game, because they don't fix or remove those. Last time I checked, they didn't have time to remove the dueling pop-ups on Andoria. Obviously, the must "unofficially" approve of that half-arsed unfinished and unrevised element of the game.
On your other points:
Minimum length requires an in-game tech mechanic that does not yet exist in STO.
The lore assignment is what it is. It's not a "go take a course at the academy" where you can find a console that takes the exam for you.
The mission is: "Go play three foundry missions." It's not "hey you, go click three consoles and ignore the actual foundry missions." You're supposed to get rewarded for playing 3 player-authored missions, not 3 player-authored exploits of a dilithium give-away.
Each of my foundry missions took over 100 hours of work on my part. Nobody really plays them, because they just want to click 3 consoles in 5 minutes to get 1440 dilithium.
Real foundry authors have to put in a lot of work to make actual missions for this game. For the past year, we've been the only folks giving this game anything resembling a story, prior to season 7 (maybe).
You should get rewards for playing them, not avoiding them because of faulty-designed reward mechanic that is exploited.
They have talked about putting other rewards in foundry missions. If they do that in season 7, they could easily just remove "Officer Reports" mission. Dont be shocked if that happens. I am Expecting it.
Kirkfat, Your stories are awsome! I have played many, and many several times. You are one of the best authors out there. Just wanted you to know.
I disagree. When players have to choose: "Gee, do I take 5 minutes to click consoles for 1440 dil, or do I spend some real time playing community-authored missions to get the same reward?"
It harms the folks who took the time to try to put some Star Trek stories back in this game.
Don't forget the time needed to transfer the Dilithium taken in from the 46 (rather absurd) toons, to one toon for the lump total of 66k.
These fast missions have been available for over a year, and Cryptic is well aware that the average player can make 1440 easy Dilithium (every 21 hours). The only change Cryptic has made to the daily mission is add even MORE rewards (50 fleet marks) to it.
If Cryptic regarded this as a true "exploit", they wouldn't allow you to give people ideas on how to maximize its potential openly on the forums.
That's not to say that Cryptic won't reduce the rewards or remove them altogether, but Cryptic can only reduce the supply and increase the demand for Dilithium so far before they shoot themselves in the foot.
For the sake of the game, and the people who play it; I hope they don't.
I my example that would be covered in about 35 days - given you would want to do this with a gold account min to start with - so you would have at least 3 slots covered.
So after 35 days you play 1 1/2 hours and you have 66,000 dilth each and every day towards your other stuff - I say that's not a bad idea
that would be like doing what 100 STFs under the new system or like 8+ hrs of grinding.
I'll take the console clicking if I KNOW they are going to leave it in place come season 7
Cryptic already HAS the new system that would eliminate this - if you read the OP and the link - they are using on Neverwinter - it's a brand new system that is time based - the question I am asking is will it be moved to STO as well?
The arguement tha this console clicker has been around for X amount of time and they have done nothing is MUTE:
The Neverwinter system that eliminates this is brand new and has only been used in Beta - so it's not like they had the same solution before that they have now.
It's an exploit, yes.
It's a happy exploit that Cryptic should consider integrating into their design philosophy by transferring the rewards to Officer of the Watch, which under-rewards at present.
Just because dilithium is a "time currency" doesn't mean that all time is equal. In general, a good design for this kind of thing is to have the first few minutes be worth more and the value of player time to dwindle the more they play.
What you are saying is eliminate the console clicker? Because this takes 10 sec to do all 3.
Well, let's see what the track record is with the Foundry. It took an entire season between 3 and 4 for the STO team to realize that maybe having someone on their team who can touch the Foundry might be a good thing.
Any change that improves the Foundry and its role in the game seems to take a bare minimum of 7-8 months to see the light of day, beyond very little things here and there.
Take the rewards system. Players complained for well over a year about the lack of rewards for folks who actually play the real missions. Dstahl finally came up with a plan and announced it in like May of this year.
Foundry rewards were coming well-before season 7, including maybe the ability to favorite an author.
It's November. Who knows how long before they can introduce the NW improvements that eliminate the exploit? Meanwhile, season 6 didn't really bring new Foundry features, beyond some cosmetic changes and the ultra-buggy multi-select (which shows no signs of getting fixed), and season 7 has ONE notable improvement (patrols), with almost nothing that we've been asking for for 2 years, except the ability to despawn NPCs. And guess what? That's entirely buggy due to baked in beam in animations.
So, yeah, something's been wrong and badly designed with the Foundry for well over a year, and folks at Cryptic are well-aware of it (maybe). I'm also not surprised that the sky is blue and people in the 50s smoked a lot.
Using the time-based reward system for the Foundry would be neat. After all, afking in a Foundry, just for 1440dil? Not worth the time except for again that guy with 46 alts on different accounts.
Limit the game accounts to 10 characters? Then F2P accounts will rule the day. The only way to fix this last exploit is to charge 20bucks when creating a new account, then have gameplay free.
But really, its the exploiters that kill the game for the other players. When left alone, they kill the economy, and when dealt with the measures hurt the normals more. We can't win.
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Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
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This was something I just mentioned - the Neverwinter system to eliminate this "exploit" is brand new - it's only been operational for a very short time. I am just wondering if it will be implemented at STO - now that they got it working on the other side at Cryptic.
Thanks for the kind words! I hope that you can favorite me in season 10.
The only real potential exploit (that I can imagine) with the NW system is this:
When the rewards are based on the average play time of a mission, then an epic 2 hour mission should offer the best rewards. When folks realize that mission "X" offers the best gear, they will start to play it repeatedly, zooming through every dialogue as quickly as possible and avoiding any optional objectives.
They'll still have to kill enemies and do stuff, unless it's one of my diplomatic missions that takes about an hour to read, but 5 minutes to "f" through.
Over time, the 2 hour mission that gives the best stuff may suddenly have an average runtime of 1 hour, due to the zooming through it. My "read this for an hour" story will give TRIBBLE rewards due to grinders zooming through it.
That means that folks who spend the full time playing/reading the longer missions might get lesser rewards than a brand new mission that takes much less time to actually play.
Most likely, players who spent 2 hours playing a RogueEnterprise mission will leave a negative review, because the grinders devalued the reward.
But, once the grinders stop getting their shinies, they'll move along to devalue another 2 hour mission by zooming through it. Over time, the average play time of the mission should go back up, therefore increasing the reward. Then, the grinders will return to devalue it.
All of this, of course, is based on the assumption that maybe, one day, the improvements in NW's foundry get put in STO.
I'm saying eliminate it and merge it with the 60 second Officer of the Watch clicker, as soon as the Foundry has its own rewards system.
I would be VERY suprised if "Officer Reports" remains after season 7. I would be SHOCKED if they did as you say, and combine it with something else.
If people show up, say hi, chat a bit, and get 8000-1000 dilithium across 5 alts it doesnt hurt anybody. People with 40 alts and lots of time on their hands dont do clickers on all their alts every day. It seems to be the ones with 10-20 that get the most out if it.
Removing this mission would cause lots of ripple effects that Cryptic doesnt want. Im guessing that 35-50% of the dilithium in the game enters the game via clicker missions. Right now someone can go buy a zen point and get 150 dilithium or so on the dilithium exchange. Removing the greatest source of dilithium would sink the prices and I imagine that it wouldnt take long before zen traders would get 50 dilithium or less per zen they purchased. If they are getting less value for their money they have less incentive to buy zen. This probably is not a good thing for Cryptic or any of us. It will cost Cryptic tons of money if they remove this "exploit".
I personally will quit loading the 200K basic provision projects into our tabs. If the fleet runs out of ships then too bad. All those fleet modules that people would have bought at the cstore to buy ships will not be bought. Im not going to ask people to contribute 200,000 dilithium and up per project if dili becomes overly rare. Fleet ships seem to me to be mostly either novelty or pay to win. A tier 3 fleet Nova that is upgraded enough to be usable as a Tier 5 ship is novelty. A tier 5 fleet patrol escort is pay to win. Either way Cryptic makes money selling fleet ship modules. Flowing dilithium helps the process.
Additionally people say dilithium is easy to get but it really isnt. Starfleet Academy and Dilithium mining pay well but they absolutely bore me to tears. I like the Borg Red Alert invasions but it gets old killing the same ship over and over. Everyone likes doffs and they give a little dilithium but it takes hours for your missions to clear. STFs are seeing their dili payouts cut. The howls Cryptic didnt hear when dili payouts were nerfed via selling doffs, contraband, etc.. will grow much louder if Cryptic removes the clicker missions.
People will be more angry and concerned about efforts to grind doffs upwards as prices rise combined with payouts falling. This will become Cryptic style 1970s style staglfation at its worst
I hate to be a told you so, but Cryptic charging free to play players 200,000 dilithium for a RA ship was a huge mistake. Thousands of potential players and customers hit VA saw how much ships cost and just said well was fun for awhile - Cya. This alone was probably the biggest mistake in the f2p experience. Cryptic has since started including mirror universe ships in lock boxes and put RA ships back into affordability but it was a dollar short and a day late.
Clearly the game has become more grindy and its going down the wrong path. A gentlemen told me tonight that Grind is not a replacement for content. Sure people are bored, they need more to do, and making them grind gives them something to do. However, Halo 4 drops today and to suggest that there are other games with good content is not a stretch of the imagination. Cryptic is losing its fun factor in STO. They are pulling revenues from STO to build NWN and letting STO rot on the vine. Players in my fleets are telling me that Azure Nebula is fun but its not really all that different than Starbase Blockade. I think it will be fun novelty for them the first 30-50 times they do it and after that they will find other things to do with their lives.
Already, small fleets are hurting. I think people should join fleets to be with friends they like who share companionship and complimentary playstyle. But leaderboards and donations are causing huge stresses in many fleets. People that buy zen and convert to dilithium get angry they are carrying the load and those earning dilithium via "gameplay" are not. Small fleets have closed, others have boycotted and banned projects. Some fleets have merged with bigger fleets. Others are having huge fights. Happy is the fleet that chugs along and knocks off projects without conflict. Those fleets are rare. Every fleet has the guy that gives a lot and then demands a promotion based on it. Every fleet leader will tell you theyve lost players over dilithium and that when they try to recruit they often hear what level is your starbase? Fleets across the board are almost going berserk trying to attract more players and improve their revenue base for fleet projects. Anybody with a loner alt will tell you they get 8-10 invites an hour. Most fleet leaders will tell you they hate blind invites but the churn rate of players leaving the game forces them to find new players to keep fleet projects progressing and blind invites sometimes get you really good players. Removing huge amounts of dilithium from the game will increase these problems.
There are already huge new dilithium sinks and reduced dilithium payouts coming in season 7. 1400 dilithium in 3 minutes is going to seem huge compared with spending 30-60 minutes for 480 dili in an stf that most of the hardcore players have done several hundred times or more and many regular players cant win. Even so, I enjoy doing the stfs whether its maximizing a speed run with great players, or trying to pull pugs through a mission they often struggle to win. I can find something to challenge myself beyond more pew pew. 480 dili removes much incentive to do them as much as I currently do.
Let me say this over and over again. Increased grind is not a substitute for content. It just angers the players you have. You can debate whether dilithium is easy to get or not. Some people have more time than others. Some are better players. The right question to ask is this... Is grinding for dilithium fun? What missions pay out dilithium and do it honestly and are actually fun after the 35th time weve done them. The only time I hear people say they had fun is in a really smooth stf. You need to give people fun ways to earn dilithium if you are going to pull clickers and right now those arent around and stfs are getting paycuts.
You absolutely cannot remove more dilithium from the game unless you lower prices on items for dilithium, you pay out more dilithium, and you find ways that are truly fun to earn it. Already, its not here yet and fleet leaders across the board will tell you that season 7 is going to stick a knife in starbase projects and all that was done right in season 6. People will do more for themselves and less for their fleets ... its just how it goes ... you cant expect it to be different.
Therefore, I am against removing these. In fact I think they should double payouts to 3000 per clicker mission.
In summary for those that complain about a long post:
1. Competition for dilithium is already overly fierce - removing more of it creates problems.
2. It would be a body blow to those that buy zen to convert to dilithium. The value of dilithium would skyrocket because it would be much harder to get and the value of zen would fall because the price of zen would stay the same.
4. It would create stagflation with rising prices and reduced income
5. Many fleets and friendships would implode with natural polarizations occuring between those that give and those that dont
6. It forces players to grind missions they dont like to earn stuff they do - games already too grindy.
7. Fleet progression gets knifed in the gut again.
8. It polarizes the player base even moreso based on either those players that play heavily or buy zen and those that some refer to as casuals. The game needs to expand and not become out of reach for non - monied players or those that are casual players.
It would be an awful mistake to remove the top source of dilithium from the game but that said, Cryptic is used to making these kinds of stupid moves. Im sure they "think" that people would buy more zen because dilithium would cost more but overall ..... it gives less value for the money and customers just often look for another product to buy.
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