Just because you or I think something is unacceptable, doesn't mean it is something the GMs will do anything about. Because legally, being idle is not a violation of the ToS.
There are AFKers in all MMOs. Nothing new. If you don't want to play with them, don't join a PUG. Personally, I haven't seen very many AFKs. In fact, depending on the mission, I welcome them. Better odds that I get first place rewards if they are idle.
_____________________
Come join the 44th Fleet.
startrek.44thfleet.com[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry going AFK for a couple of minutes isn't AFKing for the entire mission and then trying to steal drops you didn't earn.
And if you actually have a problem with axe wielding hoodlums breaking into your home with such frequency that it interferes with your playing a video game on a regular basis, then you should live somewhere else.
We have better thing to do than pamper small immature gun toting numbskullz throwing hissy fits because they're too stupid to move to a neighborhood that isn't infested with axe wielding hoodlums. :P
Good thing we agree. To bad a lot of the complainters are people overreacting to those afk'ers/leechers. Put their names on your ignorelists, you'll never see them again.
Don't stir it up by making people interested in trolling the queues, just because it irks people. Its exactly that what feed trolls. -I am norwegian, i feed trolls daily.
Good thing we agree. To bad a lot of the complainters are people overreacting to those afk'ers/leechers. Put their names on your ignorelists, you'll never see them again.
Putting people on the ignore list doesn't prevent you from being in a group with them again.
They should give the teams the ability to kick them out of the match and have it auto replace with someone from the queue. If they don't want to address it, let the community take care of it then.
First off there is no consensus. Players are constantly and bitterly arguing for and against it, while responses from Cryptic have been the vague wishy-washy "We're looking into solutions."
And just like to point out that there are lots of ways certain types of players misuse existing features to grief other players, and Cryptic has been fine allowing that to happen so potential griefing isn't really a valid defense.
I will rephrases "The general consensus at that given time was.... " my bad for not correctly wording it
One could ask you the same. Show where it is expressly stated that you may go AFK for the entire duration of queued events on purpose every single time you join one. Again, I doubt Cryptic/PWE will say that this is acceptable behavior and want to encourage it.
The burden of proof lies with the offense. The ToS is not written to specify what is allowed, but rather what is NOT allowed. And again, show me where it is against the rules.
_____________________
Come join the 44th Fleet.
startrek.44thfleet.com[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
its actually not against TOS for being idle in a match.
Nearly didn't even bother coming in this thread, I knew from the title It would be filled with posts like this one. Well done btw, second reply in the thread before someone spouts this stupid line at us. Not only is it unproductive, but it's not even worth saying. The fact threads like this crop up EVERY DAY should indicate that this is a serious problem for the playerbase. Saying "It's not against the TOS" is essentially saying they're doing nothing wrong. Well I'm sorry, but that's absolutely nonsensical. Stop saying this.
I've just read through the TOS, it's worded liberally enough that you COULD define AFKing in a match to be against the TOS.
10. User Conduct
(l) Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players
I'd certainly say being able to hide in a corner and get full rewards for a team event while not being there or contributing is both a design flaw, and an unfair advantage over other players.
(n) Take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service
AFKing certainly negatively affects players and stops them from enjoying the game, there is no way you could argue the opposite.
PWE may take any actions and impose any penalties we deem necessary to discourage and punish any violation of these terms or any other illegal or inappropriate conduct, all without prior notice or warning. The determination as to whether a violation has occurred and who is responsible for such act is solely within PWE's discretion, and is based on what we deem best for the community
So PWE can use their discretion to decide how liberally these things are applied, and they can do so with WHAT THEY DEEM IS BEST FOR THE COMMUNITY.
mostly because there is absolutely no way to prove if they lagged out or if they were idle intentionally or if say the mail man knocked on their door and they had to get up for a minute.
yes it sucks when you get someone that sits idle the whole match..
but there is so many things it could be that causes this.
I also disagree with this. Pattern of behaviour. The people that AFK in matches to get free rewards are doing it consistently and regularly. That's pretty easy to prove tbh.
I don't believe this is true. There are degrees of acceptability. Going AFK for a moment to tend to a child or something of the sort is one thing. Being AFK an entire match every single time you enter a public queue is another.
One is accepted via the TOS. I highly doubt Cryptic/PWE will say the latter is acceptable behavior.
There is nothing in the rules that discourages such behavior... Don't believe me... Read the ToS yourself...
The rules prohibit actions that purposefully hinders progress in the game, but nothing, not a single word, about purposefully prolonging a mission.
It's sad, but true... No matter how many time you read them, it is just like that I am afraid.
I am NOT under any circumstance defending those people, and I am a big support of the Vote to kick feature, but in the end, Cryptic is sadly in their right to ignore reports on AFK'ers.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Nearly didn't even bother coming in this thread, I knew from the title It would be filled with posts like this one. Well done btw, second reply in the thread before someone spouts this stupid line at us. Not only is it unproductive, but it's not even worth saying. The fact threads like this crop up EVERY DAY should indicate that this is a serious problem for the playerbase. Saying "It's not against the TOS" is essentially saying they're doing nothing wrong. Well I'm sorry, but that's absolutely nonsensical. Stop saying this.
I've just read through the TOS, it's worded liberally enough that you COULD define AFKing in a match to be against the TOS.
10. User Conduct
I'd certainly say being able to hide in a corner and get full rewards for a team event while not being there or contributing is both a design flaw, and an unfair advantage over other players.
obtaining unauthorized access to the service, might mean trying to use other means of hacking into the game by an exploit of flaw in the system, to give yourself example infinite EC to gain an advantage over someone
AFKing certainly negatively affects players and stops them from enjoying the game, there is no way you could argue the opposite.
Not really, it more means, if I find a way to stop you from playing, some how finding a flaw in the system that allows me to disable your character or kick you off the server and game.
So PWE can use their discretion to decide how liberally these things are applied, and they can do so with WHAT THEY DEEM IS BEST FOR THE COMMUNITY.
Doesn't mean AFKing is under any of that.
Scroll up and read what topset posted. I'll bet Cryptic/PWE disagree with you too.
He has a valid point though, it's not EXPRESSLY against the TOS. It's just that Cryptic/PWE have enough wiggle room in the TOS to mean that they could deem it against the rules and ban people for it if they wanted to.
But alas, it would appear that they don't want to.
perhaps it's not the overwhelming problem you are making it out to be ?
It's not. I've never experienced afkers or leeches. The closest I've heard of would be people warping out of FFA before the dreadnought at the end, and that mission does need to be changed so you don't get marks unless you finish it. But this seems to be a very insignificant problem.
Just because you or I think something is unacceptable, doesn't mean it is something the GMs will do anything about. Because legally, being idle is not a violation of the ToS.
There are AFKers in all MMOs. Nothing new. If you don't want to play with them, don't join a PUG. Personally, I haven't seen very many AFKs. In fact, depending on the mission, I welcome them. Better odds that I get first place rewards if they are idle.
Well this could be used from the ToS:
10. User Conduct
(n) Take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
PWE may take any actions and impose any penalties we deem necessary to discourage and punish any violation of these terms or any other illegal or inappropriate conduct, all without prior notice or warning. The determination as to whether a violation has occurred and who is responsible for such act is solely within PWE's discretion, and is based on what we deem best for the community and the Website. By using the Website, you agree you will be bound by PWE's determination as to whether a violation has occurred and any penalty we choose to implement.
If you must protect yourself and your happy gaming experience from the most nasty, evil, ultimate bad-guys that humanity has ever experienced in ALL of humanities collective recorded history, then YOU NEED TO CHOOSE WHO YOU PLAY WITH. :eek:
Take responsibility for yourself. Take responsibility for your own enjoyment of the game.
There's this little lesson that every human being should have learned back in kindergarten or by 1st grade - if you can't play nicely with someone THEN DON'T PLAY WITH THEM! :P
Gah. I hate it when people do that, I can't rebut what you said very easily because you embedded it inside my own quote, making it unquotable.
Stop talking about "obtaining unauthorised access to the service" I didn't bold that bit for a reason. There is an "or" word after that.
(l) Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players
Nor is it expressly stated that it is allowed. I would highly doubt they consider people AFK griefing matches "good for the community".
For sure, it's all pedantry.
The TOS doesn't go over what you're allowed to do, only vague guidelines for what you can't do. It's all nitpicking and semantics.
The bottom line is, the TOS is liberal enough to allow the wording to cover AFKers. You can interpret however you like, they're intended to be vague for that very reason. So that PWE can exercise some common sense and apply it however they see fit.
Gah. I hate it when people do that, I can't rebut what you said very easily because you embedded it inside my own quote, making it unquotable.
Stop talking about "obtaining unauthorised access to the service" I didn't bold that bit for a reason. There is an "or" word after that.
(l) Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players
OR. Meaning not the bit that came before it.
Part 10 Subsection (n) - as mentioned is the most approriate section that applies. The rest is to grey.
(n) Take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
Part 10 Subsection (n) - as mentioned is the most approriate section that applies. The rest is to grey.
(n) Take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
people that send me angry tells becasue I am not 'doing it their way' and report me just because I am sitting in my ship minding my own business affects my gameplay negatively as well......
this is a whole "who is right?" he-said / she-said debate.
.
_______________________
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
Gah. I hate it when people do that, I can't rebut what you said very easily because you embedded it inside my own quote, making it unquotable.
Stop talking about "obtaining unauthorised access to the service" I didn't bold that bit for a reason. There is an "or" word after that.
(l) Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players
OR. Meaning not the bit that came before it.
Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players
Just because you bolded what you wanted in yellow does not mean all of a sudden the other stuff does not apply, it does not work that way, they all go together, and they talk about unauthorized access.
Nothing about leaving a character idle for a long time, or multiple times....it means using bugs, hacks or exploits to cheat in the game, or go to places you're not meant to access in the game, or use other means to get on the game.
I don't see how sitting there with your thumb up your *** means you have an advantage over anyone.
I don't disagree. I would bet that were Brandon or one of the Devs to reply on the subject, they would tell you that intentionally AFK farming the public queues for free rewards is not something they find acceptable or want to encourage.
"Definitely not working-as-intended."
"It's an exploit."
Two hugely over-used phrases by the developers, which seem actually apt in this situation.
The rules prohibit actions that purposefully hinders progress in the game, but nothing, not a single word, about purposefully prolonging a mission.
If you are prolonging a mission, or trying to get the optional to fail or just not contributing as you are supposed to in match aren't you "purposefully hindering progress in game"?
You are none the less purposefully obstructing the team from completing their objectives whether they eventually complete them or not.
Just because you bolded what you wanted in yellow does not mean all of a sudden the other stuff does not apply, it does not work that way, they all go together, and they talk about unauthorized access.
I'm sorry, do you know what the word "OR" means?
If I said to you, "It is against the rules if you throw an orange at me or throw a rock at me".
You then throw a rock at me and say "No, it can't be against the rules because I didn't throw an orange at you".
Seriously, that's so stupid. They talk about unauthorized access OR to gain an unfair advantage. Neither are allowed. Do you finally comprehend what I'm saying? If not, then I give up.
I don't see how sitting there with your thumb up your *** means you have an advantage over anyone.
Because you're getting rewards without doing anything, how is that not an advantage? Everyone else can't do it, because if they did, nobody would get a reward.
I don't disagree. I would bet that were Brandon or one of the Devs to reply on the subject, they would tell you that intentionally AFK farming the public queues for free rewards is not something they find acceptable or want to encourage.
you would think they would come online and say this yes?
but these are the people that said that a few patches ago the orion slavers had their chance to steal increased 300%.. *rolls eyes*
[12:35] Vessel Two of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 225232 (271723) Plasma Damage to you with Plasma Lance.
[12:44] Vessel One of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 1019527 (1157678) Kinetic Damage to you with Plasma Energy Bolt Explosion.
Let's say I join a 5 man pug, we play for a minute or so and wait for everyone to login, etc . ... I all of the sudden have to go potty in real life .... I run quick to go.....and go..and gooo..... it really is a tummy bug kinda thing..... I need to spend about 15 minutes in the head.
when I come back ( not knowing that it would take 15 minutes in the first place mind you ) I have multiple threatening and hateful tells from people in the pug ( random people I have never played with before mind you, and for the first minute or two I was in the pug with them no-one said a word anyway...no hi..no nothin.... people usually don't talk much at all in pug's ). I get told that I am being reported for leeching and get more expletives.
so....
can you get banned for things in life that come up ?
how do you know the guy is leeching ? .... or maybe he ate some bad chili.....
you don't know.... therefore you have no case against him unless you have proof...and there is absolutely no way in the game to gain 'proof' of why someone is AFK in STO.
.:rolleyes::cool:
_______________________
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
Ideas are always good - and I think it's clear there is at least some problem here that could be either relieved or solved systematically. With any system like this, there are conflicting goals to consider: We want to improve the play experience of people who unfortunately get saddled with an AFK player, but we don't want to enable cliques of partly-premade players to bully another player for creating their own playstyle. We want to reward players for being good group participants and for helping other players, but we want to avoid any positive reinforcement tool we hypothetically create being exploited by friends or premade groups. We want to foster social interaction between players - that's kind of the purpose of a queue system, after all! - but we don't want to force it on people who really just want to play by themselves. So, there are a lot of variables to consider, and we'd have to be careful to make sure that we didn't just create more problems than we solved with any given implementation.
Pardon my rambling, but those are my thoughts on the matter. They're still pretty abstract at the moment, but I do agree there is both a collective action problem and an optimal rewards per minute problem here, where optimizing one's actions for personal gain per effort doesn't create a good collective experience, and society's normal controls for that sort of thing (reputation, word of mouth) are very much weakened by a random matchmaking system (our queue system).
So there you go. The Devs recognize that AFK is a problem, and they are thinking about how to address it without breaking the general user experience.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Just because you bolded what you wanted in yellow does not mean all of a sudden the other stuff does not apply, it does not work that way, they all go together, and they talk about unauthorized access.
Nothing about leaving a character idle for a long time, or multiple times....it means using bugs, hacks or exploits to cheat in the game, or go to places you're not meant to access in the game, or use other means to get on the game.
I don't see how sitting there with your thumb up your *** means you have an advantage over anyone.
Not true - look at common defintion for the use of "or" in a sentence:
Coordinating conjunctions:
"or" presents an alternative item or idea not necessarily related to what comes before it.
So there you go. The Devs recognize that AFK is a problem, and they are thinking about how to address it without breaking the general user experience.
Yes, but the problem is they have been saying this for 6+ months now! It really doesn't seem to be much, if any, of a priority.
I don't know why I'm being so vocal in this thread, it never affects me because I never pug. I never use public queues ever (with the exception of occasionally a crystaline elite and I usually team with a couple of people that could carry the AFKers anyway) so I honestly couldn't care how quickly it gets fixed.
Comments
Then show me where in the ToS it says so, as I do not see it. Here's a link to help you out:
http://www.perfectworld.com/about/terms
Just because you or I think something is unacceptable, doesn't mean it is something the GMs will do anything about. Because legally, being idle is not a violation of the ToS.
There are AFKers in all MMOs. Nothing new. If you don't want to play with them, don't join a PUG. Personally, I haven't seen very many AFKs. In fact, depending on the mission, I welcome them. Better odds that I get first place rewards if they are idle.
Come join the 44th Fleet.
startrek.44thfleet.com[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Good thing we agree. To bad a lot of the complainters are people overreacting to those afk'ers/leechers. Put their names on your ignorelists, you'll never see them again.
Don't stir it up by making people interested in trolling the queues, just because it irks people. Its exactly that what feed trolls. -I am norwegian, i feed trolls daily.
Putting people on the ignore list doesn't prevent you from being in a group with them again.
I will rephrases "The general consensus at that given time was.... " my bad for not correctly wording it
The burden of proof lies with the offense. The ToS is not written to specify what is allowed, but rather what is NOT allowed. And again, show me where it is against the rules.
Come join the 44th Fleet.
startrek.44thfleet.com[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Nearly didn't even bother coming in this thread, I knew from the title It would be filled with posts like this one. Well done btw, second reply in the thread before someone spouts this stupid line at us. Not only is it unproductive, but it's not even worth saying. The fact threads like this crop up EVERY DAY should indicate that this is a serious problem for the playerbase. Saying "It's not against the TOS" is essentially saying they're doing nothing wrong. Well I'm sorry, but that's absolutely nonsensical. Stop saying this.
I've just read through the TOS, it's worded liberally enough that you COULD define AFKing in a match to be against the TOS.
10. User Conduct
I'd certainly say being able to hide in a corner and get full rewards for a team event while not being there or contributing is both a design flaw, and an unfair advantage over other players.
AFKing certainly negatively affects players and stops them from enjoying the game, there is no way you could argue the opposite.
So PWE can use their discretion to decide how liberally these things are applied, and they can do so with WHAT THEY DEEM IS BEST FOR THE COMMUNITY.
http://www.perfectworld.com/about/terms
So there you are, the wording is liberal enough that AFKing is against the TOS.
TAKE THAT!
Kirk's Protege.
I also disagree with this. Pattern of behaviour. The people that AFK in matches to get free rewards are doing it consistently and regularly. That's pretty easy to prove tbh.
Kirk's Protege.
There is nothing in the rules that discourages such behavior... Don't believe me... Read the ToS yourself...
The rules prohibit actions that purposefully hinders progress in the game, but nothing, not a single word, about purposefully prolonging a mission.
It's sad, but true... No matter how many time you read them, it is just like that I am afraid.
I am NOT under any circumstance defending those people, and I am a big support of the Vote to kick feature, but in the end, Cryptic is sadly in their right to ignore reports on AFK'ers.
this is just another yah-huh / nuh-uh pissing contest thread.
.
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
ME..............................................
He has a valid point though, it's not EXPRESSLY against the TOS. It's just that Cryptic/PWE have enough wiggle room in the TOS to mean that they could deem it against the rules and ban people for it if they wanted to.
But alas, it would appear that they don't want to.
Kirk's Protege.
It's not. I've never experienced afkers or leeches. The closest I've heard of would be people warping out of FFA before the dreadnought at the end, and that mission does need to be changed so you don't get marks unless you finish it. But this seems to be a very insignificant problem.
Well this could be used from the ToS:
Take responsibility for yourself. Take responsibility for your own enjoyment of the game.
There's this little lesson that every human being should have learned back in kindergarten or by 1st grade - if you can't play nicely with someone THEN DON'T PLAY WITH THEM! :P
Gah. I hate it when people do that, I can't rebut what you said very easily because you embedded it inside my own quote, making it unquotable.
Stop talking about "obtaining unauthorised access to the service" I didn't bold that bit for a reason. There is an "or" word after that.
(l) Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players
OR. Meaning not the bit that came before it.
Kirk's Protege.
For sure, it's all pedantry.
The TOS doesn't go over what you're allowed to do, only vague guidelines for what you can't do. It's all nitpicking and semantics.
The bottom line is, the TOS is liberal enough to allow the wording to cover AFKers. You can interpret however you like, they're intended to be vague for that very reason. So that PWE can exercise some common sense and apply it however they see fit.
Kirk's Protege.
Part 10 Subsection (n) - as mentioned is the most approriate section that applies. The rest is to grey.
(n) Take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
.
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
people that send me angry tells becasue I am not 'doing it their way' and report me just because I am sitting in my ship minding my own business affects my gameplay negatively as well......
this is a whole "who is right?" he-said / she-said debate.
.
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
Just because you bolded what you wanted in yellow does not mean all of a sudden the other stuff does not apply, it does not work that way, they all go together, and they talk about unauthorized access.
Nothing about leaving a character idle for a long time, or multiple times....it means using bugs, hacks or exploits to cheat in the game, or go to places you're not meant to access in the game, or use other means to get on the game.
I don't see how sitting there with your thumb up your *** means you have an advantage over anyone.
"Definitely not working-as-intended."
"It's an exploit."
Two hugely over-used phrases by the developers, which seem actually apt in this situation.
Kirk's Protege.
Yeah they can ban people for anything, does not mean they have or will ban people for AFKing.
If you are prolonging a mission, or trying to get the optional to fail or just not contributing as you are supposed to in match aren't you "purposefully hindering progress in game"?
You are none the less purposefully obstructing the team from completing their objectives whether they eventually complete them or not.
I'm sorry, do you know what the word "OR" means?
If I said to you, "It is against the rules if you throw an orange at me or throw a rock at me".
You then throw a rock at me and say "No, it can't be against the rules because I didn't throw an orange at you".
Seriously, that's so stupid. They talk about unauthorized access OR to gain an unfair advantage. Neither are allowed. Do you finally comprehend what I'm saying? If not, then I give up.
Because you're getting rewards without doing anything, how is that not an advantage? Everyone else can't do it, because if they did, nobody would get a reward.
Kirk's Protege.
you would think they would come online and say this yes?
but these are the people that said that a few patches ago the orion slavers had their chance to steal increased 300%.. *rolls eyes*
[12:44] Vessel One of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 1019527 (1157678) Kinetic Damage to you with Plasma Energy Bolt Explosion.
Let's say I join a 5 man pug, we play for a minute or so and wait for everyone to login, etc . ... I all of the sudden have to go potty in real life .... I run quick to go.....and go..and gooo..... it really is a tummy bug kinda thing..... I need to spend about 15 minutes in the head.
when I come back ( not knowing that it would take 15 minutes in the first place mind you ) I have multiple threatening and hateful tells from people in the pug ( random people I have never played with before mind you, and for the first minute or two I was in the pug with them no-one said a word anyway...no hi..no nothin.... people usually don't talk much at all in pug's ). I get told that I am being reported for leeching and get more expletives.
so....
can you get banned for things in life that come up ?
how do you know the guy is leeching ? .... or maybe he ate some bad chili.....
you don't know.... therefore you have no case against him unless you have proof...and there is absolutely no way in the game to gain 'proof' of why someone is AFK in STO.
.:rolleyes::cool:
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
Already been over this, as have many other people.
No, in order to get banned (or even warned) you would need to be a repeat offender.
5 times = 1st warning, another 5 = second warning, another 5 = 24h ban, or something similar.
Or alternatively, just find a way to not give these TRIBBLE any credit.
When I say "24h ban" I do mean only from public queues, if these people want to set up a private game by all means go for it.
Kirk's Protege.
So there you go. The Devs recognize that AFK is a problem, and they are thinking about how to address it without breaking the general user experience.
Not true - look at common defintion for the use of "or" in a sentence:
Coordinating conjunctions:
"or" presents an alternative item or idea not necessarily related to what comes before it.
Yes, but the problem is they have been saying this for 6+ months now! It really doesn't seem to be much, if any, of a priority.
I don't know why I'm being so vocal in this thread, it never affects me because I never pug. I never use public queues ever (with the exception of occasionally a crystaline elite and I usually team with a couple of people that could carry the AFKers anyway) so I honestly couldn't care how quickly it gets fixed.
Kirk's Protege.