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Let's talk AFK Players
tobar26th
Member Posts: 799 Arc User
So, it's a long despised issue, and I dare say most Endgame players have seen it at some point or other - so let's talk about solutions!
The Problem
Various events - Fleet Activities, PVP Matches, STFs reward players for taking part in them. This reward is given out regardless of player participation so a player can queue up, sit at the Transwarp gate in PVP three times a day and get 1440 Dilithium.
Similarly in STFs, the player can come in, sit at spawn and do nothing, and as long as the match completes, get their two EDCs and 1100 dilithium.
Personal Rant: Played a Khitomer Accord Space Elite today with a PUG group (yes yes I know, don't PUG...but humour me) where I had two 'genius' level players. The first of which sat on spawn for the first five minutes, and when, out of pure spite, I pulled a Cube onto him RAN AWAY to the other side of the match and AFK'd there instead...and the second who came in and after a few minutes said 'what do I have to do?' and when asked if he'd done the normals said 'I didn't see the need, lesser rewards'.....geez!:rolleyes:
Anyway off the rant, let's find a solution - now as I see it we have too main issues here - PVP AFKing where there's a winner, and PVE where it's cooperative.
So take a moment, propose your own solution - one for the competitive PVP, and one for the PVE where it's cooperative...
Competitive PVP
I like a particular idea here, and it's something that tech wise should be relatively simple, introduce a new wrapper mission in addition to the current 'play 3' mission. A second wrapper 'Win 3 PVP Matches'.
This way players who are pretty casual can come in, play three matches have some fun and not worry about winning, get their 1440 and go home.
However it should motivate most players to try and win their matches so they can grab the extra 1440 - and if they only win one that day? That's fine, it can roll onto the next day, or they can play another match, and another...think how the Klingon 'Ship hunter' wrappers work I guess.
Cooperative PVE
This I find a bit harder, the optional objective is clearly designed to encourage players to take part - but as we've discovered in our fleet? The optional loot is generally pretty poor, to the stage where we all shrug if we don't get it and move on with no qualms.
I've got a few thoughts here - first of all introduce a small dilithium reward on the optional that ALL players get, 440 or whatever the 'small' dilithium containers contain. That said, I don't like this - it feels wrong. I think there needs to be some sort of scoring in STFs, perhaps invisible, but enough as to split the missions into 'parts' such as they already are, each player must 'score' a certain number of points in each part - nothing major, take down a couple of drones, resurrect a single player, heal X health points, don't take part in all parts? Don't earn at the end. Again messy - but an idea.
So STO community, let's see what you think - how do we deal with these guys without just hiding in private queues?
The Problem
Various events - Fleet Activities, PVP Matches, STFs reward players for taking part in them. This reward is given out regardless of player participation so a player can queue up, sit at the Transwarp gate in PVP three times a day and get 1440 Dilithium.
Similarly in STFs, the player can come in, sit at spawn and do nothing, and as long as the match completes, get their two EDCs and 1100 dilithium.
Personal Rant: Played a Khitomer Accord Space Elite today with a PUG group (yes yes I know, don't PUG...but humour me) where I had two 'genius' level players. The first of which sat on spawn for the first five minutes, and when, out of pure spite, I pulled a Cube onto him RAN AWAY to the other side of the match and AFK'd there instead...and the second who came in and after a few minutes said 'what do I have to do?' and when asked if he'd done the normals said 'I didn't see the need, lesser rewards'.....geez!:rolleyes:
Anyway off the rant, let's find a solution - now as I see it we have too main issues here - PVP AFKing where there's a winner, and PVE where it's cooperative.
So take a moment, propose your own solution - one for the competitive PVP, and one for the PVE where it's cooperative...
Competitive PVP
I like a particular idea here, and it's something that tech wise should be relatively simple, introduce a new wrapper mission in addition to the current 'play 3' mission. A second wrapper 'Win 3 PVP Matches'.
This way players who are pretty casual can come in, play three matches have some fun and not worry about winning, get their 1440 and go home.
However it should motivate most players to try and win their matches so they can grab the extra 1440 - and if they only win one that day? That's fine, it can roll onto the next day, or they can play another match, and another...think how the Klingon 'Ship hunter' wrappers work I guess.
Cooperative PVE
This I find a bit harder, the optional objective is clearly designed to encourage players to take part - but as we've discovered in our fleet? The optional loot is generally pretty poor, to the stage where we all shrug if we don't get it and move on with no qualms.
I've got a few thoughts here - first of all introduce a small dilithium reward on the optional that ALL players get, 440 or whatever the 'small' dilithium containers contain. That said, I don't like this - it feels wrong. I think there needs to be some sort of scoring in STFs, perhaps invisible, but enough as to split the missions into 'parts' such as they already are, each player must 'score' a certain number of points in each part - nothing major, take down a couple of drones, resurrect a single player, heal X health points, don't take part in all parts? Don't earn at the end. Again messy - but an idea.
So STO community, let's see what you think - how do we deal with these guys without just hiding in private queues?
Post edited by tobar26th on
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
how would we gauge that tho? damage dealt? damage received? healing done? buffs given? ... a lot of the STFs require say one person guarding a spot so it doesn't fail that person would obviously end up dealing and receiving less damage along with every other metric being lower in number but is just as vital and is participating just as much as those DPSing
I don't see a system that could reliably gauge participation short of a live person being a referee
on that way nuubs will never more come on the idea to join random stfs only for free reward, it will become useless for them all.
but in ground mission this system will not work or be fair, but in space yes,
only the prob with kithomere grspace like the othr one say if 2 protect vortex the cant outdps the structur destroyers.
They should have a kick timer around the spawn point - if you stay within say 5 or 10 kilometers of the spawn point for more than 2 minutes, you get kicked from the mission. (they will need to ensure spawn points are moved away from control zones - like the time portal in Khitomer Accords Space)
Also a kick timer for not pressing any buttons or keys within 60 seconds.
To get any rewards you should have to do a minimum amount of damage. It should be reasonable, so any player whether Tactical, Engineer or Science should be able to accomplish it if they just follow along and play like they should be doing. If you kill a single enemy, you become exempt and receive all mission rewards. I think a minimum of 50,000 or 100,000 damage for an STF is reasonable.
Also to get any rewards you should have to use a minimum of say, 5 different abilities for the duration of the mission. Most Vice Admirals have like two dozen, so it shouldn't be a problem.
So think about it - they have to leave the spawn area, press buttons, use abilities and do damage to the enemies. There just isn't any way to AFK with a punishment system like this. They might as well just play the mission.
[Poster has been AFK for 5 minutes....]
Lawful good option
Simply reduce the reward til its not worth them doing this , a reward that goes down and down as the timer ticks away would do this
Tighter rules for the public good
Neutral Good option
Log out anyone who doesn't move or fire for 30 seconds and bring in someone else
(reseting the timer By a minute each time)
Chaotic good option
Log out yourself that will teach them
Lawful neutral option
Set the missions so if it Fails there is NO reward they pull their weight or it fails
True Neutral option
leave it alone it will find its own balance
Chaotic neutral option
Automatically phase shift afkers into an instance together and pull together the people ACTIVE into one instance (longer clock and lesser number of targets carry over)
Lawful Evil option
Anyone who fails to respawn when downed in ground combat accumulates ALL injurys the rest of the team gets
Anyone further than 100 metres from team at end (and not Dead) gets no reward
anyone who LEAVES the match leaves with a full set of injurys
In space the ship takes the damage
and distance is 50 km
Neutral evil option
Create an AFK instance
sit in it for 30 minutes you get the reward
Chaotic evil option
randomly delete the account of one AFK every hour on the hour
to point 1 no way if a friend says he goes to toilet for 2 min and he is a insane dps player and leave about your funny timer the mission that destroys for me and the complet team the mission so no way.
to your other point sounds good but 50 or 100k?
the npx what you have to kill in a stfs are ~boss 1,5 mio structures ~4mio npc ~3-5 mio hp so ea player have to deal a serioius amout of this total HP ~8mio.
so 1-1,5 mio dmg done or no reward.;)
what ?!?
example infected space elite boss 1,5 mio hp gate 1,5mio 2xgen 600k ea nanites 8x 200k ea cubes 3x ~300k ea + npcs lets say 3mio in total HP
is a total HP to bring down of ~9mio? so deal 1mio dmg in total is not hard to reach.
If you don't have 30 minutes to devote to an STF you shouldn't do it. I don't care if he is your friend, if he sits at the spawn point while everyone else if fighting, he should be kicked.
The damage minimum should be reasonable. Not everyone flies an escort.
That doesn't normally work well. To easy to use a keyboard macro or just a heavy object to bypass the timer.
The trick is setting up the system to tell if you are actually doing something or not, I had a thought about it...
Keep track of damage done, healing done, or any other power that has to be used on a target, like buffs and the like.
If you don't do damage/heal/something in say 90 seconds you're kicked. That way someone can't just tape down the space bar, because that won't register as doing something.
I agree. I was thinking a combination of timers would work best. Some kind of an AFK timer and some kind of a "progress" timer that keeps track of abilities used or damage done would work best I think.
You sir, win the internet
30min?
the point on a timer lets say i go in medium dps my friend insane dps+3 pugs leecher/no dps.
he go to toilet for 2 min the timer says he get kicked afther 1 min, then i am in a stf what will be with him a 100% sucess now a total fail coz the player is not more there who deals alone 2x more dmg then the 3 pugs afkler or whatever so i pay the price + he for?
understand the point?
No.
A simple keystroke timer is pointless. Because it can be faked very easily, all you have to do is put something heavy on your spacebar and you beat the timer.
Having the system keep track of you doing damage or healing is not pointless, because it can't be beaten easily. You can't just hold down the space bar and keep doing damage if you never move. Same goes for healing. So this would mean people would have to be actively engaging in the mission or else they'd get booted.
Well, no I don't understand just about half of what you are trying to say.
I've never been in an STF that couldn't at least complete it with 4 people. Your friend just isn't as awesome as you think he is. You should at least be able to finish it with the rest of your group. It's not fair to everyone else when someone sits at spawn while they do all the work, no matter what the reason is.
So yes, we most definitely need an AFK timer.
So before you join a queue, make sure you can be there for the duration of the mission.
He should of done that before starting the STF. Unless the STF is a hour + long, there's really no reason for anyone to take a 2 minute break during it.
We need both. There are bozos who join STF queues and then actually don't do anything. Then there are griefers who join an STF with the express purpose of not contributing anything just to spite the other players.
no afk timer can work simply make a macro on any way and your timer.....
that will only provoke more afk player come in only for finding out how then can counter the nuuby timer lol
and the puging will also not stoped on this way.
tell me anythink what says a dmg counter will not work combatlog will be automatikly createt on the server and no way to hack it so....
the perfect and only way to delete over time afk and useless players from pve missions.
But in either case, a bozo or griefer will be caught by some sort of damage/heal tracking system. Either they are doing at least some damage/healing every so often, or else they get kicked.
The griefers will be able to get around that somewhat easily, because they just have to take pot shots at stuff every minute or so. But there's no way to code against griefing really.
A damage/heal tracking system at least makes it harder on them.
And they all lived happily ever after (except the griefers/AFKer's. They whined a lot).
Maybe throw in a "Majority Pause" feature where if 3 or more team members hit it then the safeguards are temporarily suspended (y'know, for those nights when you grabbed three mystery-meat burritos from the roadside taco stand on the way home from work and your "containment field" is fluctuating).
Yes a damage delt counter can be countered when using a macro (be it hardware or software), but adding in a heal counter ontop will tbh not make that much of a difference you can still set follow and just again macro a heal combo so they are still tech AFK but at the very least "active".
IMO adding a reward scale timer would do two things:
1. get people motivated to be better at completing the runs
2. reward those active
3. make it not viable to AFK by removing rewards for said player if there is no activity by the end of the match (including any and all rolls).
The only time a group should have the option to vote for a player to stay when the window comes up if AFK for 2-5min is in a private match in pugs there will not be veto option unless 2 or more have teamed before entering a public queue.
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The opinions expressed in my posts are my own views and do not reflect on any other entity(s) or person(s) I may or may not represent at the time.
I don't see any logical explanation on why this hasn't been implemented yet, after all there is existing code to log and display in-game performance (PvP maps).
Granted, AFKers seem to be quite rare in my playing timezone (EST) but there is really nothing stopping people from free-loading and high tailing it out of there after receiving loot.
Devs should really take note of these discussions and note that an "honor based" system of bringing adequate gear and not AFKing simply does not work in today's gaming environment.
There should at least be a vote / kick option which is somewhat griefer proof in a way, because all of us do want a 5 man team for the STF but do not wish to have freeloaders or saboteurs along for the ride for obvious reasons.
My Youtube Channel
99.99% of the people on my Blackhole list are AFK'ers and Trolls.
That way, when they have been Ignored by the general population of gamers, the only people that they would be Teamed up with would be fellow AFK'ers.
Problem solved
Edit: Thanks Tobar for making this Thread
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
AFK timer - Easily circumvented.
Vote to kick - This would solve a bit of AFKing, but it would open up a whole world of drama and whinging with people abusing the system. You think if you have a part-PuG, with three people who pre-formed a team and then queued, they could kick the other two right as the second gate in KA is about to go boom for example, divide the opt loot between three and then take Donatra themselves. And there are people out there who would do that. There's also the herd mentality to think about. Two complete clowns with no ability/knowledge of how to do the mission think a player who does know what he's doing has made a mistake (he's moved away from the generator without destroying it? Is he mad?) and hit the vote to kick button. Only takes one person to be a sheep and a player is gone.
And even if you limited the kick option so it can only be activated within a certain period after the mission start, then someone only has to participate for 3 minutes or 5 minutes or whatever and then go AFK. Okay, it's better than letting them just enter the system and do nothing, but as Tobar's example demonstrates, and a couple of other anecdotes I've heard about AFKers boasting in chat mid-mission about not helping, people are actually staying at their PCs. They're just not participating. So it's as much griefing as it is laziness or exploiting with some people.
Performance stats - This has potential, but you'd need the requirement to be high enough to ensure a would be AFKer has to participate in a meaningful portion of the mission, but not so high that new players coming into Normal STFs aren't met with a message saying they were too ****e to get a reward. Because quite a lot of players faced with that will just say "sod this" and stop playing the game rather than ponder how they could improve as players. I don't do nearly enough combat parsing or number crunching to know if that's feasible.
It's also hard to quantify things like following correct tactics and crowd control (for all the use it is in this game at the moment).
vote for kick will solve nothing , so i go in a stf with 3 friends then 2 min befor mission is done i kick you for fun with my 2 friends we are 3 , you would find that funny.
dont post thinks what can start a bigger prob in the game then you think.
the only 100% solution on all afk players, pugs ,..... is the dmg calculation it is 100% fair it grants that only aktiv players get loot people see automatikly who does what who helps who not so afking and co will be gone very soon.;)
it will not grant a mission success but if mission is done only players who have REALLY help get loot more fair way not exist.