If STO only has 20 thousand people playing they need to just scrap it and move on, that would make them the lowest populated MMO out, even EQ has more than 20 thousand people playing it (or at least paying for their accounts)
And this is why that guess is entirely bogus, and no doubt FAR below reality.
The primary reason they keep their sub numbers secret is that they don't have 1 million subs. Have never had 1 million subs. And aren't generating that kind of cash.
I'd think they're somewhere around 20k paying subscribers in terms of cash generated each month. Plus C-Store.
But most of that would have been tied up into paying for other things due to corporate structure, and the way they use one game's revenue to help pay for new games in development (in this case Neverwinter).
But that's just me guessing.
back when people were talking about sub numbers, people were quoting that website that 'shows us' different MMO's subscription numbers. That site said 60k for STO, and stormshade chimed in and said that number was very low compared to what STO's sub numbers really are.
You are a LTS, as am I. I don't know when you bought yours, or how much you paid, but I bought mine pre-launch because we were led to believe by multiple interviews and press releases in the beginning that indicated two full factions.
I paid $350 USD for two factions, not one and a quarter. If I was paying for one and a quarter I would not have bought LTS at that price (maybe $100-$175 USD, but not $350 USD).
You also paid for two factions, and you, like me, have gotten one and a quarter Factions.
Even if you are a purely Fed player, even if you hate and loath the KDF, even if you have no desire to ever roll a KDF toon, even out of curiosity, you should be outraged that we have been short-changed like this.
And you should be outraged that when pro-KDf players make threads and requests for all of us to get what we've paid for (or, in the case of monthly/biannually/annual subs, are paying for), that Fed-centric players come in and tell them to, in effect, shut up, sit down, and be happy for what scraps are thrown their way.
You, and your attitude that the KDF for whatever reason should be the way it is, is part of the problem, and you are acting against your own self interest.
If WoW can have two full and healthy factions at $15 USD/month, there's no reason STO should be one and a quarter Factions at the same monthly price. No reason, that is, except the actions and demands of shortsighted subscribers demanding that the inequality continue and that they continue to get less then they're paying for.
First statement removed.. now please read the REST of what I wrote.
Cryptic is starting to learn that KDF needs more PVE, which is good.. but the ground combat revamp opens up the possibility that "more people will want to play Ground PVP"
From a Federation perspective with our bright white luxury liners that steer like a cow, fighting a space battle on uneven ground against a team of invisible enemies isn't very fun. They appear in our weak zone, and by the time we get turned around to bring our main weapons to bear, they vanish and another wolf appears in our weak zone. The combat in PVP is vastly different (and harder) than in PVE, Fed missions don't prepare you for fighting with a chohesive team dynamic, and the feds have plenty of PVE they can go play if they want to, and when PVP turns out to be obnoxiously hard for a PUG, we don't want to... so the Klingons suffer.
But on the ground, away from those super-agile, cloaked predator ships, "the odds will be even". And if Ground combat can be made more enjoyable for everyone, then the chances go up dramatically that more KDF and FED players will be interested in playing PVP on the ground.
As a fed player since beta, I can say that I've never once enjoyed a PVP game in space vs Klingons (winning or losing). But ground PVP was fun and exciting even when we lost.
back when people were talking about sub numbers, people were quoting that website that 'shows us' different MMO's subscription numbers. That site said 60k for STO, and stormshade chimed in and said that number was very low compared to what STO's sub numbers really are.
This is just my opinion. But my opinion is to not believe the commentary from PR people regarding subscription health of the game. Since they've never once offered up any actual numbers, the "facts" in dispute aren't actually being disputed. And while most of the people individually are stand up people, the job they have has certain protocols and standards they need to meet.
I guess what I'm saying is ... that post says the facts are in error but offers no actual facts. So I don't believe that post.
And 60k seems like a stat that was at least derived with some method. So I'm much more willing to accept the 60k ballpark. For January of 2011.
And it's my current belief that subs have declined since then.
And also I couch my own post under the modifier of subs that are actively contributing money as a subscription (thus, not counting lifetime subs due to the age of the game at this point).
So even I myself am trying to find something more than just a raw data point.
First off its not from a PR person, but from a community manager. I'm not sure how you can say Stormshades comment is wrong. It clearly says the numbers on that site (which is 60k) is "very low when compared to fact"
Also the site that came up with 60k have been known and admitted to just completely guessing sub numbers with no research at all.
EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean to make that first statement sound so rude
This is just my opinion. But my opinion is to not believe the commentary from PR people regarding subscription health of the game. Since they've never once offered up any actual numbers, the "facts" in dispute aren't actually being disputed. And while most of the people individually are stand up people, the job they have has certain protocols and standards they need to meet.
The simple fact of the matter here is that Cryptic does not release subscription numbers publically. That's company policy. This means that only they know the truth of the matter, so if you want to ignore what they say about it, then you ignore the closest thing we have to the hard facts.
Prior to STO's release, they stated that a sub number around 150k would be a sustainable success for them. We are continually told that things are looking good for the game, and the continual growth to both the game and the dev team working on it indicates that it's a success. You can take what you will from that, but regardless, 20k would be an absolute disaster, and I don't think the game would still be running if that were even close to being the truth.
The simple fact of the matter here is that Cryptic does not release subscription numbers publically. That's company policy. This means that only they know the truth of the matter, so if you want to ignore what they say about it, then you ignore the closest thing we have to the hard facts.
There are no hard facts. None. Just PR talk. I'm ignoring PR talk. This is probably because I used to be a journalist and have a bit of experience with that process.
I know hard facts when I see them. They've never offered any.
So no, I do not believe them.
Prior to STO's release, they stated that a sub number around 150k would be a sustainable success for them.
Yup. That would be a sustainable success for them. No facts have ever been presented that they hit those numbers. There's a pretty long history of the game losing devs, us being told they can't hire new employees, that they have a small staff, there's even a pretty interesting report from Atari about how the company was taking losses so had to shop Cryptic around and sell them.
Those are facts. Stuff that happened.
but regardless, 20k would be an absolute disaster, and I don't think the game would still be running if that were even close to being the truth.
My number is a guess. However, there's nothing to indicate it's wrong. Most of the behavior of this game's development leads one to believe this game does not have the population to sustain itself. So it has shoved most of its development into microtransactions. Then it got sold. And is now looking very hard at going free to play.
It's going to take a lot more than Stormshade saying "the game is looking good" to convince me that the game is looking good.
I'm just looking at the facts that we are given. And ignoring the PR talk about how great the kool aid tastes.
The company was reported to be losing money. The company was sold.
First off its not from a PR person, but from a community manager. I'm not sure how you can say Stormshades comment is wrong. It clearly says the numbers on that site (which is 60k) is "very low when compared to fact"
How can I say his comment is wrong?
Because he says that the number is very low when compared to fact.
But never gives said fact to compare to.
Never. Not once. Not even a ballpark.
There are no facts to compare the 60k number to.
That's why it's wrong.
He's a community manager? That's ... not PR? Then what is it? Really, community manager ... is public relations.
Yup. That would be a sustainable success for them. No facts have ever been presented that they hit those numbers. There's a pretty long history of the game losing devs, us being told they can't hire new employees, that they have a small staff, there's even a pretty interesting report from Atari about how the company was taking losses so had to shop Cryptic around and sell them.
Those are facts. Stuff that happened.
Not sure where you're seeing a long history of the game losing devs. Yes, the dev team got smaller when the game launched, as a number were moved to different projects. STO's team has consistently been the largest team of the bunch, and it's been growing, even in a very recent timeframe (as in this month).
Atari purchased Cryptic studios for 25mil was it? Perfect World is tentatively purchasing them for 50mil. If what you believe is really the case, then they would have to be very foolish to pour that much money into it.
Aside from that, Atari has been hurting financially for a number of years now. This was a quick profit for them, going along with their business plan to use 3rd party companies to develop their games, and a shift of focus to more casual titles that take less investment. The interesting thing is that apparently, they are retaining Cryptic as a 3rd party developer for the production of Neverwinter.
The company was reported to be losing money. The company was sold.
ZING! Success! Right?
When you look at Cryptic's losses in the recent Atari financial report, you have to keep in mind that there are atLEAST 2 other games in production by the studio, including Neverwinter & an as of yet unnamed MMO property. This costs alot of money, and they won't start making that money back until the games are released, and preferably selling well.
Well if you want to stay on topic, that's pretty easy. Here's some bullet points:
- Season 4 part 1 couldn't be loaded properly onto Tribble
- Season 4 part 1 lacks a lot of Klingon content
- Nothing to do but wait until Tuesday, to get a taste of a part of season 4 patch 1's content. Maybe.
The topic is pretty much in stasis until then. And for me personally, I think it's best I avoid Tribble this time around. I seem to expect too much out of the company in terms of its testing environment.
First statement removed.. now please read the REST of what I wrote.
Cryptic is starting to learn that KDF needs more PVE, which is good.. but the ground combat revamp opens up the possibility that "more people will want to play Ground PVP"
From a Federation perspective with our bright white luxury liners that steer like a cow, fighting a space battle on uneven ground against a team of invisible enemies isn't very fun. They appear in our weak zone, and by the time we get turned around to bring our main weapons to bear, they vanish and another wolf appears in our weak zone. The combat in PVP is vastly different (and harder) than in PVE, Fed missions don't prepare you for fighting with a chohesive team dynamic, and the feds have plenty of PVE they can go play if they want to, and when PVP turns out to be obnoxiously hard for a PUG, we don't want to... so the Klingons suffer.
But on the ground, away from those super-agile, cloaked predator ships, "the odds will be even". And if Ground combat can be made more enjoyable for everyone, then the chances go up dramatically that more KDF and FED players will be interested in playing PVP on the ground.
As a fed player since beta, I can say that I've never once enjoyed a PVP game in space vs Klingons (winning or losing). But ground PVP was fun and exciting even when we lost.
Sorry but this is NOT the PVP Forums you want to go there.
The point of this thread was to discuses what appear to be lack of Klingon content after we promise a lot for season 4 consider dstahl wants to launch a third faction in Sept.
Well I do know ground combat need fix. It was not as broken as the 1/4 faction in the game. I personal have been waiting patiently and quietly for a year for cryptic to fix that. After the one year mark when it became clear it was not important I start ask. At that point I was told by Dstahl that more then 50% of the team working on klingons.
But looking at engineer reports I did not see that.
Looking at patch notes I do not see that.
It seems to me that most of the team is working on DOFF system and ground combat, and while both are nice features for the game. They do no address the major issues with the klingons.
Namely level them is BORING UNFUN LONG GRIND FEAST. Personal I do not see how either of the those are going to fix that. What would fix that in my opnion is
1. More Mission for the klingons. Open up defend sector space type mission for Klingons, give use a more patrol missions. No one asking for FE type Klingon only missions. Give the FE a klingon feel when doing them. Why as a klingon warrior that believe in honor amd I worried about insulting the breen honor. That not the klingon way. There should be a more klingon away to get the answer from the breen.
2. More klingon uniform options. They say the only way things get into game is do to mission content or FE episodes. Well there are many Klingon art assets that the klingon faction those not get that the NPC have. The Long coat That B'vat wearing in Doomdays. How about the Mek'Leth. Want examples.
I think this whole Klingon situation is going to come to a pretty angry conclusion quickly.
I think even the non KDF player base has had enough of the Klingon vaporware and is going to start chiming in and supporting the movement for concrete commited development to the KDF.
The entire game now has this glaring back hole on it, everything else is up to par but this.
Well, personally I came to play Star Trek, not Star Trek: The Baddies.
Sorry but this is NOT the PVP Forums you want to go there.
I'm sorry, I thought this was a discussion of Season 4 content available to Klingons. Please don't tell me I'm not welcome to participate in a thread.
Season 4's goal is to dramatically enhance Ground Combat for both factions.
Enhancing Ground Combat could increase interest in Ground PVP.
Increased interest in Ground PVP could increase fed interest in cross-faaction ground PVP.
Increased interest in cross-faction ground PVP could result in (gasp) more stuff for Klingons to do.
Klingons having more fun and logging in more often could result in Cryptic deciding there's more reason to work on Klingon content.
As has been said repeatedly by the Devs, the reason they're not pouring huge buckets of effort into Klingon-specific content, is the same reason they've postponed working on the Academy tutorials.
Amount of cost in payroll hours to make the content vs the amount of current users that benefit and new users it would attract/retain vs the amount of money they're likely to make back off new subs and C-Store sales... put simply, the relatively small number of people playing KDF isn't seen as the most cost effective use of Cryptic's resources. There are relatively few people with Klingon characters, fewer still who log into them regularly or for very long, and few people buy the Klingon-related items in the C-Store.
The message this sends to Cryptic, is that Klingons make a lot of noise, complain near constantly whether they're given anything or not, constantly complain about balance, but don't really play their characters, and don't buy the stuff they've already made. It only makes good business sense to keep putting manhours into the profitable section of the business.
I don't have numbers to look at, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear that the ugly-huge fed bridges sell 10x better than the ugly-huge KDF bridges. That the most bizarre, unliked ugly fed ships sell better than the KDF ships. I'd even bet that more people have unlocked the Ferengi and/or Pakleds for feds, than have bought Borg Boffs for Klingons.
Of course it's a chicken-and-egg situation.. if KDF is so terrible and content-poor, why would anyone want to log in or buy goodies? Sadly Cryptic has made it clear that at lest for the time being, they will put their money where your money is, not where your mouth is. So if you want things to change, buy some C-Store goodies for your Klingons, and embrace your Klingon characters in hours of the new Ground PVP.
Season 4 gives KDF a new social zone, and totally new Gorn model. S4 also opens the "you're not authorized" walls up quite a bit as well. They lowered the Klingon-character start point to level 5 (from 6), Later on, S4.x also promises to add more ship variants for KDF, and offer more Featured Episodes and whatnot, focussed on the Gorn vs the Borg, which will no doubt result in a number of interesting goodies down the road (can we say Liberated Borg Gorn?)... and honestly, who knows what else is in the works once the big Ground-Combat overhaul goes through.
I'm sorry, I thought this was a discussion of Season 4 content available to Klingons. Please don't tell me I'm not welcome to participate in a thread.
Season 4's goal is to dramatically enhance Ground Combat for both factions.
Enhancing Ground Combat could increase interest in Ground PVP.
Increased interest in Ground PVP could increase fed interest in cross-faaction ground PVP.
Increased interest in cross-faction ground PVP could result in (gasp) more stuff for Klingons to do.
Klingons having more fun and logging in more often could result in Cryptic deciding there's more reason to work on Klingon content.
As has been said repeatedly by the Devs, the reason they're not pouring huge buckets of effort into Klingon-specific content, is the same reason they've postponed working on the Academy tutorials.
Amount of cost in payroll hours to make the content vs the amount of current users that benefit and new users it would attract/retain vs the amount of money they're likely to make back off new subs and C-Store sales... put simply, the relatively small number of people playing KDF isn't seen as the most cost effective use of Cryptic's resources. There are relatively few people with Klingon characters, fewer still who log into them regularly or for very long, and few people buy the Klingon-related items in the C-Store.
The message this sends to Cryptic, is that Klingons make a lot of noise, complain near constantly whether they're given anything or not, constantly complain about balance, but don't really play their characters, and don't buy the stuff they've already made. It only makes good business sense to keep putting manhours into the profitable section of the business.
I don't have numbers to look at, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear that the ugly-huge fed bridges sell 10x better than the ugly-huge KDF bridges. That the most bizarre, unliked ugly fed ships sell better than the KDF ships. I'd even bet that more people have unlocked the Ferengi and/or Pakleds for feds, than have bought Borg Boffs for Klingons.
Of course it's a chicken-and-egg situation.. if KDF is so terrible and content-poor, why would anyone want to log in or buy goodies? Sadly Cryptic has made it clear that at lest for the time being, they will put their money where your money is, not where your mouth is. So if you want things to change, buy some C-Store goodies for your Klingons, and embrace your Klingon characters in hours of the new Ground PVP.
Season 4 gives KDF a new social zone, and totally new Gorn model. S4 also opens the "you're not authorized" walls up quite a bit as well. They lowered the Klingon-character start point to level 5 (from 6), Later on, S4.x also promises to add more ship variants for KDF, and offer more Featured Episodes and whatnot, focussed on the Gorn vs the Borg, which will no doubt result in a number of interesting goodies down the road (can we say Liberated Borg Gorn?)... and honestly, who knows what else is in the works once the big Ground-Combat overhaul goes through.
As for few people playing the Klingon that because cryptic did not release a Klingon faction. They release a Klingon Monster Play.
If you release something not not even 1/2 finished and 500 days later it still less then half finished then claim that your not going to work on the unfinished part that was promised back in August of 2008. That those not fly in my book.
If cryptic want to go the course of ingore the Klingon that is there choise. Of course then we custmer also have choices. For one I have yet to recomand this game to friends. I do not talk about this game to friends. The reason why? Because we promise 2 full PVE factions.
It was not till Oct 2009, mere 116 day before launch, before we first told that Klingon would having any major focus on PVP.
However we told 176 days before launch we would have fulll PVE content.
57 Days before release we told they be a focus on PVP but that there still be PVE.
it was a mere 47 days before launch that the rumor and lies you spread was first announced.
So far 129 days we lead to believe there be full PVE content at launch. Then 47 days before launch we told that the faction would not have PVE content for launch
We told in this interview
And again, on the theme of player feedback, Emmert hopes that their next step with Klingons comes from the community. Will there be an advanced territory control PvP game with the Federation? Will they have full episodes of PvE content? He wants the players to tell them once theyve tried the game.
Well we have told them since launch we want a full PVE faction. Personal I think they would been better of launch one faction then the joke the call the klingon faction and release the klingon later. When they had the time to do it right.
Meh, you're welcome to post here. This is a discussion. Sure it may get lively. And you know, it's OK if people disagree with each other. It really is. That's part of what fuels discussion. So stick around.
As has been said repeatedly by the Devs, the reason they're not pouring huge buckets of effort into Klingon-specific content, is the same reason they've postponed working on the Academy tutorials.
I can see your point about not pouring "buckets of effort" into the KDF.
I think though that a lot of KDF players have the perception that they're not even pouring eyedroppers of effort into KDF content.
The Gorn Revamp's taken about as much time as it takes a human child to be birthed. And the Penga torpedoes are KDF weapons, given directly to the federation. It's getting dicey when you start to look at all the places where just a tinsy amount of effort or awareness (vet rewards for instance) could have avoided a storm of rage on the forums.
I don't think KDF people expect buckets. But the current rate of support/development could be improved. A lot.
I'm sorry, I thought this was a discussion of Season 4 content available to Klingons. Please don't tell me I'm not welcome to participate in a thread.
Season 4's goal is to dramatically enhance Ground Combat for both factions.
Enhancing Ground Combat could increase interest in Ground PVP.
Increased interest in Ground PVP could increase fed interest in cross-faaction ground PVP.
Increased interest in cross-faction ground PVP could result in (gasp) more stuff for Klingons to do.
Klingons having more fun and logging in more often could result in Cryptic deciding there's more reason to work on Klingon content.
As has been said repeatedly by the Devs, the reason they're not pouring huge buckets of effort into Klingon-specific content, is the same reason they've postponed working on the Academy tutorials.
Amount of cost in payroll hours to make the content vs the amount of current users that benefit and new users it would attract/retain vs the amount of money they're likely to make back off new subs and C-Store sales... put simply, the relatively small number of people playing KDF isn't seen as the most cost effective use of Cryptic's resources. There are relatively few people with Klingon characters, fewer still who log into them regularly or for very long, and few people buy the Klingon-related items in the C-Store.
The message this sends to Cryptic, is that Klingons make a lot of noise, complain near constantly whether they're given anything or not, constantly complain about balance, but don't really play their characters, and don't buy the stuff they've already made. It only makes good business sense to keep putting manhours into the profitable section of the business.
I don't have numbers to look at, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear that the ugly-huge fed bridges sell 10x better than the ugly-huge KDF bridges. That the most bizarre, unliked ugly fed ships sell better than the KDF ships. I'd even bet that more people have unlocked the Ferengi and/or Pakleds for feds, than have bought Borg Boffs for Klingons.
Of course it's a chicken-and-egg situation.. if KDF is so terrible and content-poor, why would anyone want to log in or buy goodies? Sadly Cryptic has made it clear that at lest for the time being, they will put their money where your money is, not where your mouth is. So if you want things to change, buy some C-Store goodies for your Klingons, and embrace your Klingon characters in hours of the new Ground PVP.
Season 4 gives KDF a new social zone, and totally new Gorn model. S4 also opens the "you're not authorized" walls up quite a bit as well. They lowered the Klingon-character start point to level 5 (from 6), Later on, S4.x also promises to add more ship variants for KDF, and offer more Featured Episodes and whatnot, focussed on the Gorn vs the Borg, which will no doubt result in a number of interesting goodies down the road (can we say Liberated Borg Gorn?)... and honestly, who knows what else is in the works once the big Ground-Combat overhaul goes through.
I spent the last of my tokens with the last sale (not the current one) and I'm not going to get more till there is something worthwhile to buy on the KDF side.
I spent the last of my tokens with the last sale (not the current one) and I'm not going to get more till there is something worthwhile to buy on the KDF side.
Not go completely off topic, but I was hesitant to purchase anything from the current sale due to the sale of Cryptic. However, the pricing on new character and bridge officer slots was finally somewhat reasonable, so I caved.
That being said, my previous purchases in the sale right before that were all KDF purchases. The To'Duj and all the rest of the KDF bridges I didn't have, since they were extremely reasonably priced when on sale.
One thing I find intersting is the first question of the june ask Cryptic
Q: Cheysuli Will we be seeing new sets of uniforms and other variations of your toons for the Klingon Faction?
A: Most of our new costume options begin as either a costume for an NPC in a story, or as something developed with funding via the C-Store. Up to this point, we have only been able to add Klingon Costume options when our character art team is working on a related task such as the Gorn revamp coming in Season 4. Unfortunately, Klingon items don't sell very well in the C-Store and so making new Klingon outfits isn't happening as fast as we'd like.
So I wonder where the follow two items are for Klingon Faction
I mean we been asking for Long coast and Mek'leth since day one. They both in game? Also there slash the warrior is wearing with the long coat, what about the coat com badge as well, that I yet to see players able to wear?
I mean we been asking for Long coast and Mek'leth since day one. They both in game? Also there slash the warrior is wearing with the long coat, what about the coat com badge as well, that I yet to see players able to wear?
Perhaps these be in Season 4 as surprise?
I found this statement from Stahl surprising to say the least...as there is very little KDF in the c-store already,and there are no costume options for KDF characters,period. "Klingon items don't sell very well".....how about putting something in there that we actually want for a change? Have you ever thought about that Mr. Daniel Stahl?
The statements from the devs concerning Klingon content sounds like the higher ups have no clue just how bad off the KDF is for content (C-$tore and otherwise) or they're patronizing Klingon players and trying to do damage control. I'd guess it's some of both. It's as if they don't even think about the KDF during their planning sessions, then they go 'Aww, TRIBBLE. We forgot the Klingons again. So what do we tell them?'. Then the blamestorming begins... :rolleyes:
The fact that a dev had to get approval to try to get the Hargh'peng torpedo to the KDF speaks volumes. Really? Approval?! As in, it wasn't already in the works to get that to the KDF?! Do they get surprised by their electric bill every month and say 'why do I keep getting this? I paid that last month...'? Do they make four or five trips to the store a day because they discover they're out of something that didn't occur to them before the last trip? Forethought does wonders.
Maybe they should hire a teenager for $5 to dress as a Klingon and wander around their office to remind them that Klingons actually exist in STO. That can't have worse results than the forum...
The fact that a dev had to get approval to try to get the Hargh'peng torpedo to the KDF speaks volumes. Really? Approval?! As in, it wasn't already in the works to get that to the KDF?!
Along those same lines, remember back on May 20th when Salami_Inferno posted the Tribble patch notes about the Federation getting an Azura Personal Com Code? Nothing in the patch notes about Klingons getting anything similar of course. I'm sure they were working on it though, they must have just forgotten to put it in the patch notes.
So I asked him about it, and he said; "A klingon variant of this will make it in as well." A few days later he mentions that it wouldn't be going live when the Federation com code did, but that it would make it out in time for Season 4. Notice how he mentioned that it, along with some emblems, would be hooked up to an existing Klingon mission, but he didn't say which mission it would be.
Why? Because they had to write the code for it and scramble to figure out which mission to attach it to. Because when they were designing the Azura Com Code for the Federation they'd completely forgotten about making anything for the Empire.
Though, to be fair, he did post the next day that it would go live at the same time the Federation code did. Of course it was broke when it went live, but that's what happens when you do a quick rush job on your code.
In my opinion i am confused at cryptics vision.
They wanted a two, three, four game faction (they planned on the romulans, and "another) faction, but can't even get a second faction up to the level of the second. They release stuff for the first faction week after week for the feds and seem completely baffled about people wanting stuff for the kdf and reluctant to even try it. Did they expect the more factions they planned on adding to be easier to implement and appease the fans or were the romulans suppose to be Romulans in cosmetic only?
I believe at this point, they will make the Romulans a playable faction, but they will postpone it for some time. I think they count on the Romulans to get about the same player-base as the Klingons. This is of course only guesswork. That said, I too wonder at the policy, since most players, including those that are Federation-only at this point, will if nothing else at least have some foreknowledge when it comes to Faction favoritism.
Few people would choose a new faction if they don't have any faith in its future. And the only way one can guarantee that future is to fix the already existing Klingon Empire and add to it on an equal or close to equal footing. That way people would be assured the Romulan Star Empire would also grow.
Some people will probably hate me for saying this, but I think Romulans in 2012 and not in 2011 would be a good thing.
It gives the STO team time to concentrate on all the changes that are coming in the next seasons beginning with the Duty Officer system and Ground Combat revamp.
So the Romulans can be constructed from the beginning the benefit from these changes.
Additionally there is more time to deal with the Klingons.
What does one have to do with the other beyond the "no Romulans before the Klingons are finished" thing you might ask.
The Klingons will be a benchmark for how far Cryptic is willing to go for a non-Federation faction in terms of depth, options and content.
So if done right it will possibly (re-)attract many people who have either opted not to check out the game because the Romulans were not playable in the first place or because of the Klingon situation or who even left over it.
So if neither the Klingons nor the Romulans are rushed it might attract people who would otherwise refrain from giving the game a chance because of the current reputation this game has regarding everything that is not Federation.
Aside from the new Quo'Nos and bundles of other features previously mentioned here, you also forget: Almost everything the Fed is getting... Is going to the KDF as well. Virtually ALL of it.
And you have to consider multiple things from a Dev point of view. Less than half of the populace plays the KDF. You want to work on things the most people will see (hence the delays on the new Tutorials - not many people still play them unless they want to make a new character). Most of their crew is working on Featured Episodes (which the KDF WILL have access to). I'm sure a couple Devs are working on KDF stuff in their spare time. Like Gozer has been with the STFs. Their primary workforce is still making FEs, but the STFs are still getting the love they need. Just because it's not their primary focus doesn't mean it's not being looked into.
Aside from the new Quo'Nos and bundles of other features previously mentioned here, you also forget: Almost everything the Fed is getting... Is going to the KDF as well. Virtually ALL of it.
And you have to consider multiple things from a Dev point of view. Less than half of the populace plays the KDF. You want to work on things the most people will see (hence the delays on the new Tutorials - not many people still play them unless they want to make a new character). Most of their crew is working on Featured Episodes (which the KDF WILL have access to). I'm sure a couple Devs are working on KDF stuff in their spare time. Like Gozer has been with the STFs. Their primary workforce is still making FEs, but the STFs are still getting the love they need. Just because it's not their primary focus doesn't mean it's not being looked into.
Seems like you missed the entire point of the thread.
The point is that Season 4 so far does not solve the problem with leveling a Klingon. Nor does it add enough content to start to close the gap between the Federation and the Klingons. You can put in a Doff system for both factions and revamp ground combat, but you still won't solve the problem that there is not as much faction content for the KDF and it is more of a grind to level a KDF player. New Gorn and new a new Qo'Nos don't solve the problem.
On top of that, read the most recent Ask Cryptic. Dstahl said that Klingons will not be developed as fast as the Federation going forward, oh, but it might change. So, yeah, we are frustrated.
What I've also found annoying from some Federation players is that they'll claim that the KDF was only ever intended to be a PvP faction on one hand, but then they want the war between the KDF and the Federation to be over on the other--which would effectively reduce the amount of PvP available.
Seems like you missed the entire point of the thread.
The point is that Season 4 so far does not solve the problem with leveling a Klingon. Nor does it add enough content to start to close the gap between the Federation and the Klingons. You can put in a Doff system for both factions and revamp ground combat, but you still won't solve the problem that there is not as much faction content for the KDF and it is more of a grind to level a KDF player. New Gorn and new a new Qo'Nos don't solve the problem.
On top of that, read the most recent Ask Cryptic. Dstahl said that Klingons will not be developed as fast as the Federation going forward, oh, but it might change. So, yeah, we are frustrated.
What I've also found annoying from some Federation players is that they'll claim that the KDF was only ever intended to be a PvP faction on one hand, but then they want the war between the KDF and the Federation to be over on the other--which would effectively reduce the amount of PvP available.
If you had a sibling that was younger than you, say 2 years difference, would he be as tall as you? As strong? As smart? No. In this case, the KDF can be seen as the Fed's younger sibling - not as large or as well developed. I share your concerns about the lack of content, but the fact of the matter is that things take time. Given the fact that the KDF is younger, and the team being used to develop the factions themselves is smaller because of distribution between other projects, it's going to take more time. As I said above, just because the entire team isn't focused on it doesn't mean it's not happening.
Plus, if you don't like how the KDF is being handled, you can always make a Fed character and play that.
Comments
And this is why that guess is entirely bogus, and no doubt FAR below reality.
back when people were talking about sub numbers, people were quoting that website that 'shows us' different MMO's subscription numbers. That site said 60k for STO, and stormshade chimed in and said that number was very low compared to what STO's sub numbers really are.
Last comment in this thread
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=196237&highlight=100k+Subs&page=6
You are a LTS, as am I. I don't know when you bought yours, or how much you paid, but I bought mine pre-launch because we were led to believe by multiple interviews and press releases in the beginning that indicated two full factions.
I paid $350 USD for two factions, not one and a quarter. If I was paying for one and a quarter I would not have bought LTS at that price (maybe $100-$175 USD, but not $350 USD).
You also paid for two factions, and you, like me, have gotten one and a quarter Factions.
Even if you are a purely Fed player, even if you hate and loath the KDF, even if you have no desire to ever roll a KDF toon, even out of curiosity, you should be outraged that we have been short-changed like this.
And you should be outraged that when pro-KDf players make threads and requests for all of us to get what we've paid for (or, in the case of monthly/biannually/annual subs, are paying for), that Fed-centric players come in and tell them to, in effect, shut up, sit down, and be happy for what scraps are thrown their way.
You, and your attitude that the KDF for whatever reason should be the way it is, is part of the problem, and you are acting against your own self interest.
If WoW can have two full and healthy factions at $15 USD/month, there's no reason STO should be one and a quarter Factions at the same monthly price. No reason, that is, except the actions and demands of shortsighted subscribers demanding that the inequality continue and that they continue to get less then they're paying for.
Cryptic is starting to learn that KDF needs more PVE, which is good.. but the ground combat revamp opens up the possibility that "more people will want to play Ground PVP"
From a Federation perspective with our bright white luxury liners that steer like a cow, fighting a space battle on uneven ground against a team of invisible enemies isn't very fun. They appear in our weak zone, and by the time we get turned around to bring our main weapons to bear, they vanish and another wolf appears in our weak zone. The combat in PVP is vastly different (and harder) than in PVE, Fed missions don't prepare you for fighting with a chohesive team dynamic, and the feds have plenty of PVE they can go play if they want to, and when PVP turns out to be obnoxiously hard for a PUG, we don't want to... so the Klingons suffer.
But on the ground, away from those super-agile, cloaked predator ships, "the odds will be even". And if Ground combat can be made more enjoyable for everyone, then the chances go up dramatically that more KDF and FED players will be interested in playing PVP on the ground.
As a fed player since beta, I can say that I've never once enjoyed a PVP game in space vs Klingons (winning or losing). But ground PVP was fun and exciting even when we lost.
This is just my opinion. But my opinion is to not believe the commentary from PR people regarding subscription health of the game. Since they've never once offered up any actual numbers, the "facts" in dispute aren't actually being disputed. And while most of the people individually are stand up people, the job they have has certain protocols and standards they need to meet.
I guess what I'm saying is ... that post says the facts are in error but offers no actual facts. So I don't believe that post.
And 60k seems like a stat that was at least derived with some method. So I'm much more willing to accept the 60k ballpark. For January of 2011.
And it's my current belief that subs have declined since then.
And also I couch my own post under the modifier of subs that are actively contributing money as a subscription (thus, not counting lifetime subs due to the age of the game at this point).
So even I myself am trying to find something more than just a raw data point.
Also the site that came up with 60k have been known and admitted to just completely guessing sub numbers with no research at all.
EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean to make that first statement sound so rude
The simple fact of the matter here is that Cryptic does not release subscription numbers publically. That's company policy. This means that only they know the truth of the matter, so if you want to ignore what they say about it, then you ignore the closest thing we have to the hard facts.
Prior to STO's release, they stated that a sub number around 150k would be a sustainable success for them. We are continually told that things are looking good for the game, and the continual growth to both the game and the dev team working on it indicates that it's a success. You can take what you will from that, but regardless, 20k would be an absolute disaster, and I don't think the game would still be running if that were even close to being the truth.
There are no hard facts. None. Just PR talk. I'm ignoring PR talk. This is probably because I used to be a journalist and have a bit of experience with that process.
I know hard facts when I see them. They've never offered any.
So no, I do not believe them.
Yup. That would be a sustainable success for them. No facts have ever been presented that they hit those numbers. There's a pretty long history of the game losing devs, us being told they can't hire new employees, that they have a small staff, there's even a pretty interesting report from Atari about how the company was taking losses so had to shop Cryptic around and sell them.
Those are facts. Stuff that happened.
My number is a guess. However, there's nothing to indicate it's wrong. Most of the behavior of this game's development leads one to believe this game does not have the population to sustain itself. So it has shoved most of its development into microtransactions. Then it got sold. And is now looking very hard at going free to play.
It's going to take a lot more than Stormshade saying "the game is looking good" to convince me that the game is looking good.
I'm just looking at the facts that we are given. And ignoring the PR talk about how great the kool aid tastes.
The company was reported to be losing money. The company was sold.
ZING! Success! Right?
How can I say his comment is wrong?
Because he says that the number is very low when compared to fact.
But never gives said fact to compare to.
Never. Not once. Not even a ballpark.
There are no facts to compare the 60k number to.
That's why it's wrong.
He's a community manager? That's ... not PR? Then what is it? Really, community manager ... is public relations.
Not sure where you're seeing a long history of the game losing devs. Yes, the dev team got smaller when the game launched, as a number were moved to different projects. STO's team has consistently been the largest team of the bunch, and it's been growing, even in a very recent timeframe (as in this month).
Atari purchased Cryptic studios for 25mil was it? Perfect World is tentatively purchasing them for 50mil. If what you believe is really the case, then they would have to be very foolish to pour that much money into it.
Aside from that, Atari has been hurting financially for a number of years now. This was a quick profit for them, going along with their business plan to use 3rd party companies to develop their games, and a shift of focus to more casual titles that take less investment. The interesting thing is that apparently, they are retaining Cryptic as a 3rd party developer for the production of Neverwinter.
When you look at Cryptic's losses in the recent Atari financial report, you have to keep in mind that there are atLEAST 2 other games in production by the studio, including Neverwinter & an as of yet unnamed MMO property. This costs alot of money, and they won't start making that money back until the games are released, and preferably selling well.
- Season 4 part 1 couldn't be loaded properly onto Tribble
- Season 4 part 1 lacks a lot of Klingon content
- Nothing to do but wait until Tuesday, to get a taste of a part of season 4 patch 1's content. Maybe.
The topic is pretty much in stasis until then. And for me personally, I think it's best I avoid Tribble this time around. I seem to expect too much out of the company in terms of its testing environment.
Sorry but this is NOT the PVP Forums you want to go there.
The point of this thread was to discuses what appear to be lack of Klingon content after we promise a lot for season 4 consider dstahl wants to launch a third faction in Sept.
Well I do know ground combat need fix. It was not as broken as the 1/4 faction in the game. I personal have been waiting patiently and quietly for a year for cryptic to fix that. After the one year mark when it became clear it was not important I start ask. At that point I was told by Dstahl that more then 50% of the team working on klingons.
But looking at engineer reports I did not see that.
Looking at patch notes I do not see that.
It seems to me that most of the team is working on DOFF system and ground combat, and while both are nice features for the game. They do no address the major issues with the klingons.
Namely level them is BORING UNFUN LONG GRIND FEAST. Personal I do not see how either of the those are going to fix that. What would fix that in my opnion is
1. More Mission for the klingons. Open up defend sector space type mission for Klingons, give use a more patrol missions. No one asking for FE type Klingon only missions. Give the FE a klingon feel when doing them. Why as a klingon warrior that believe in honor amd I worried about insulting the breen honor. That not the klingon way. There should be a more klingon away to get the answer from the breen.
2. More klingon uniform options. They say the only way things get into game is do to mission content or FE episodes. Well there are many Klingon art assets that the klingon faction those not get that the NPC have. The Long coat That B'vat wearing in Doomdays. How about the Mek'Leth. Want examples.
Why can my klingon character not wear outfit like this. It in the Game? http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/7596/2011052000095.jpg
3. More Ship customization options. Right know only General can customize there ship options. There is one captain ship, if you buy a C-store skin.
Well, personally I came to play Star Trek, not Star Trek: The Baddies.
I'm sorry, I thought this was a discussion of Season 4 content available to Klingons. Please don't tell me I'm not welcome to participate in a thread.
As has been said repeatedly by the Devs, the reason they're not pouring huge buckets of effort into Klingon-specific content, is the same reason they've postponed working on the Academy tutorials.
Amount of cost in payroll hours to make the content vs the amount of current users that benefit and new users it would attract/retain vs the amount of money they're likely to make back off new subs and C-Store sales... put simply, the relatively small number of people playing KDF isn't seen as the most cost effective use of Cryptic's resources. There are relatively few people with Klingon characters, fewer still who log into them regularly or for very long, and few people buy the Klingon-related items in the C-Store.
The message this sends to Cryptic, is that Klingons make a lot of noise, complain near constantly whether they're given anything or not, constantly complain about balance, but don't really play their characters, and don't buy the stuff they've already made. It only makes good business sense to keep putting manhours into the profitable section of the business.
I don't have numbers to look at, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear that the ugly-huge fed bridges sell 10x better than the ugly-huge KDF bridges. That the most bizarre, unliked ugly fed ships sell better than the KDF ships. I'd even bet that more people have unlocked the Ferengi and/or Pakleds for feds, than have bought Borg Boffs for Klingons.
Of course it's a chicken-and-egg situation.. if KDF is so terrible and content-poor, why would anyone want to log in or buy goodies? Sadly Cryptic has made it clear that at lest for the time being, they will put their money where your money is, not where your mouth is. So if you want things to change, buy some C-Store goodies for your Klingons, and embrace your Klingon characters in hours of the new Ground PVP.
Season 4 gives KDF a new social zone, and totally new Gorn model. S4 also opens the "you're not authorized" walls up quite a bit as well. They lowered the Klingon-character start point to level 5 (from 6), Later on, S4.x also promises to add more ship variants for KDF, and offer more Featured Episodes and whatnot, focussed on the Gorn vs the Borg, which will no doubt result in a number of interesting goodies down the road (can we say Liberated Borg Gorn?)... and honestly, who knows what else is in the works once the big Ground-Combat overhaul goes through.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies ~<GM Jahia>
As for few people playing the Klingon that because cryptic did not release a Klingon faction. They release a Klingon Monster Play.
If you release something not not even 1/2 finished and 500 days later it still less then half finished then claim that your not going to work on the unfinished part that was promised back in August of 2008. That those not fly in my book.
If cryptic want to go the course of ingore the Klingon that is there choise. Of course then we custmer also have choices. For one I have yet to recomand this game to friends. I do not talk about this game to friends. The reason why? Because we promise 2 full PVE factions.
It was not till Oct 2009, mere 116 day before launch, before we first told that Klingon would having any major focus on PVP.
However we told 176 days before launch we would have fulll PVE content.
57 Days before release we told they be a focus on PVP but that there still be PVE.
it was a mere 47 days before launch that the rumor and lies you spread was first announced.
So far 129 days we lead to believe there be full PVE content at launch. Then 47 days before launch we told that the faction would not have PVE content for launch
We told in this interview
Well we have told them since launch we want a full PVE faction. Personal I think they would been better of launch one faction then the joke the call the klingon faction and release the klingon later. When they had the time to do it right.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies ~<GM Jahia>
I can see your point about not pouring "buckets of effort" into the KDF.
I think though that a lot of KDF players have the perception that they're not even pouring eyedroppers of effort into KDF content.
The Gorn Revamp's taken about as much time as it takes a human child to be birthed. And the Penga torpedoes are KDF weapons, given directly to the federation. It's getting dicey when you start to look at all the places where just a tinsy amount of effort or awareness (vet rewards for instance) could have avoided a storm of rage on the forums.
I don't think KDF people expect buckets. But the current rate of support/development could be improved. A lot.
Thoughts?
I spent the last of my tokens with the last sale (not the current one) and I'm not going to get more till there is something worthwhile to buy on the KDF side.
Not go completely off topic, but I was hesitant to purchase anything from the current sale due to the sale of Cryptic. However, the pricing on new character and bridge officer slots was finally somewhat reasonable, so I caved.
That being said, my previous purchases in the sale right before that were all KDF purchases. The To'Duj and all the rest of the KDF bridges I didn't have, since they were extremely reasonably priced when on sale.
So I wonder where the follow two items are for Klingon Faction
Long Coat
Mek"leth
I mean we been asking for Long coast and Mek'leth since day one. They both in game? Also there slash the warrior is wearing with the long coat, what about the coat com badge as well, that I yet to see players able to wear?
Perhaps these be in Season 4 as surprise?
I found this statement from Stahl surprising to say the least...as there is very little KDF in the c-store already,and there are no costume options for KDF characters,period. "Klingon items don't sell very well".....how about putting something in there that we actually want for a change? Have you ever thought about that Mr. Daniel Stahl?
The fact that a dev had to get approval to try to get the Hargh'peng torpedo to the KDF speaks volumes. Really? Approval?! As in, it wasn't already in the works to get that to the KDF?! Do they get surprised by their electric bill every month and say 'why do I keep getting this? I paid that last month...'? Do they make four or five trips to the store a day because they discover they're out of something that didn't occur to them before the last trip? Forethought does wonders.
Maybe they should hire a teenager for $5 to dress as a Klingon and wander around their office to remind them that Klingons actually exist in STO. That can't have worse results than the forum...
Z
So I asked him about it, and he said; "A klingon variant of this will make it in as well." A few days later he mentions that it wouldn't be going live when the Federation com code did, but that it would make it out in time for Season 4. Notice how he mentioned that it, along with some emblems, would be hooked up to an existing Klingon mission, but he didn't say which mission it would be.
Why? Because they had to write the code for it and scramble to figure out which mission to attach it to. Because when they were designing the Azura Com Code for the Federation they'd completely forgotten about making anything for the Empire.
Though, to be fair, he did post the next day that it would go live at the same time the Federation code did. Of course it was broke when it went live, but that's what happens when you do a quick rush job on your code.
They wanted a two, three, four game faction (they planned on the romulans, and "another) faction, but can't even get a second faction up to the level of the second. They release stuff for the first faction week after week for the feds and seem completely baffled about people wanting stuff for the kdf and reluctant to even try it. Did they expect the more factions they planned on adding to be easier to implement and appease the fans or were the romulans suppose to be Romulans in cosmetic only?
I believe at this point, they will make the Romulans a playable faction, but they will postpone it for some time. I think they count on the Romulans to get about the same player-base as the Klingons. This is of course only guesswork. That said, I too wonder at the policy, since most players, including those that are Federation-only at this point, will if nothing else at least have some foreknowledge when it comes to Faction favoritism.
Few people would choose a new faction if they don't have any faith in its future. And the only way one can guarantee that future is to fix the already existing Klingon Empire and add to it on an equal or close to equal footing. That way people would be assured the Romulan Star Empire would also grow.
Neglect doesn't garner trust.
Not because I think I'm that awesome but I feel the post fits the issue to some degree:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3520539&postcount=12
And you have to consider multiple things from a Dev point of view. Less than half of the populace plays the KDF. You want to work on things the most people will see (hence the delays on the new Tutorials - not many people still play them unless they want to make a new character). Most of their crew is working on Featured Episodes (which the KDF WILL have access to). I'm sure a couple Devs are working on KDF stuff in their spare time. Like Gozer has been with the STFs. Their primary workforce is still making FEs, but the STFs are still getting the love they need. Just because it's not their primary focus doesn't mean it's not being looked into.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies ~<GM Jahia>
Seems like you missed the entire point of the thread.
The point is that Season 4 so far does not solve the problem with leveling a Klingon. Nor does it add enough content to start to close the gap between the Federation and the Klingons. You can put in a Doff system for both factions and revamp ground combat, but you still won't solve the problem that there is not as much faction content for the KDF and it is more of a grind to level a KDF player. New Gorn and new a new Qo'Nos don't solve the problem.
On top of that, read the most recent Ask Cryptic. Dstahl said that Klingons will not be developed as fast as the Federation going forward, oh, but it might change. So, yeah, we are frustrated.
What I've also found annoying from some Federation players is that they'll claim that the KDF was only ever intended to be a PvP faction on one hand, but then they want the war between the KDF and the Federation to be over on the other--which would effectively reduce the amount of PvP available.
If you had a sibling that was younger than you, say 2 years difference, would he be as tall as you? As strong? As smart? No. In this case, the KDF can be seen as the Fed's younger sibling - not as large or as well developed. I share your concerns about the lack of content, but the fact of the matter is that things take time. Given the fact that the KDF is younger, and the team being used to develop the factions themselves is smaller because of distribution between other projects, it's going to take more time. As I said above, just because the entire team isn't focused on it doesn't mean it's not happening.
Plus, if you don't like how the KDF is being handled, you can always make a Fed character and play that.