The simplest route is often the best route to take. This is not about taking the current tier 1 ship and retro fitting it, this is about designing a NEW ship that looks like the tier 1 variant.
So if it's not going to look exactly like a TOS Connie, why bother?
1)
Lastly, "This is not about taking the current tier 1 ship and retro fitting it, this is about designing a NEW ship that looks like the tier 1 variant." Please explain what the difference is.
If i need to define this, then it really isnt worth the time to explain it, but ill give it a shot.
Refit.. vb , -fits, -fitting, -fitted
1. to make or be made ready for use again by repairing, re-equipping, or resupplying
New...adjective
1.
of recent origin, production, purchase, etc.; having but lately come or been brought into being:
One is taking an existing product and changing it.
The other is about creating something from nothing.
So if it's not going to look exactly like a TOS Connie, why bother?
It is going to look just like the original, albeit on a much larger scale
It would be the same size, mass, internal volume, external volume as the current tier 5 or tier 6 level ships.( whichever they decide to make it)
It would have the same BO and console layout as one of the Cruiser class ships( im in favor of the assualt cruiser, but a argument for the star cruiser could be made)
This isnt limited by having a system in place that has a set amount of upgrade points, there is no upgrading involved, its a new ship that pays homage to the TOS era cruiser.
The system Captwilliams is proposing, requires a rework and addition of current game mechanics, the one most prevalent in this discussion only changes the skin basically
I know I'll have to ask you again (since you just keep ignoring it)
How exactly does this save time? And comes up with a different result then a Tier 5 Connie?
And you, as always, like in every other post, decide to ignore the most obvious. You constantly do it, when the info is right in front of you. For those just new to the conversation, its understandable, but you have followed these threads from the inception and know what is being discussed.
It is going to look just like the original, albeit on a much larger scale
It would be the same size, mass, internal volume, external volume as the current tier 5 or tier 6 level ships.( whichever they decide to make it)
Please, no supersized Connies (or Mirandas, or Novas).
It was silly when JJ did it and it's not (IMO) what people are asking for.
My preference, at least, would be for something with the size and handling of a T2 cruiser and the shields and hull strength of a T4 or whatever it takes to not die when a T5 looks at it. Some people also want better BO consoles; I'm ambivalent or "willing to compromise" on that.
It is going to look just like the original, albeit on a much larger scale
It would be the same size, mass, internal volume, external volume as the current tier 5 or tier 6 level ships.( whichever they decide to make it)
It would have the same BO and console layout as one of the Cruiser class ships( im in favor of the assualt cruiser, but a argument for the star cruiser could be made)
This isnt limited by having a system in place that has a set amount of upgrade points, there is no upgrading involved, its a new ship that pays homage to the TOS era cruiser.
The system Captwilliams is proposing, requires a rework and addition of current game mechanics, the one most prevalent in this discussion only changes the skin basically
Then all you have is a mis-scaled TOS Connie. All that does is irritate an entirely different group of people who are obsessed with ship scale who will complain.
So long as it will look identical to the TOS Connie, you will have the same exact problem as before. If it's not going to look identical to the TOS Connie, then there is no point.
And the Excelsior is about 100 years older then the Defiant.
It also had quantum torpedos, and was either a brand new ship or a recent refit. Of course, that was 50 years ago from this perspective. I'm not against connies with quantum torpedos.
So what your saying is you want a ship to have the benefits of a T4 and replace its detriments with that of the positives of a T2?
Speaking only for myself - yes. That is what I would like. I'm willing to work extra for it, and if I don't get it, I'll be okay with that. But that is what I would like. So that I can fly the ship I fell in love with 30 years ago during TMP's long flyby without getting killed by VA-level PvE opponents. (I don't PvP, so that's moot for me.)
Alternatively, let me set my own level at will, without needing a teammate, so that I can be a Lt. Commander or Commander again. Frankly, the only thing Admiral has going for it is that I get to fly another of my favorites from the movies, the Sovereign.
Say, there's an idea. Having put in my time and ground my way to the level cap, can I go back and have a scaled-down Sovereign at T2 or T3? Because that was, in all seriousness, the only reason I kept leveling.
The excelsior in that case not only took more damage but one more hit would have finished her.
And since both ships were aiming to disable not destroy each other, its not a very good indicator.
The defiant was equally badly damaged. Plus the disable arguement is pointless since neither one was able to disable the other.
Also according to Memory Alpha it was an even match.
Near Earth, the Lakota and the Defiant join battle. The ships are evenly matched, and with Sisko looking on, Admiral Leyton amends his orders to prevent the Defiant from reaching Earth by whatever means necessary, even if it means destroying the Defiant.
1) The Defiant took more damage because it was not aware it was entering a combat situation and spent a considerable time taking damage before deciding to fight so not a fair comparison
2) No they didn't it is clearly stated by Kira "they are in worse shape, one more hit will probably finish them."
And, one more shot would have done them in too. You forget that part,
Memory Alpha states it was an even match.
Even i the Lakota too more damage, it wasn't destroyed by the defiant outright.
Thats OP, you are asking them to take away the things that keep them balanced.
When I was a LtC, I could kill even-con ("0") Klingon, Romulan, Gorn etc. battleships in my refit Connie. Now that I'm a VA, even-con battleships quickly demolish that very same ship, even with Mk X gear. Why is it balanced at level 25 and not at 50? Why can't I have that balance back? As it stands, my "reward" for hitting the level cap is not ever getting to use most of the ships I like again.
I don't want to face PvE spawns that completely overpower my chosen ship(s). I'm willing to discuss options as to best accomplish this.
May I present my refit/defit idea. It would give you exactly what you want. (In both ways)
I am skeptical, but I'll have a look. Can you be a bit more specific, however? That was a very long thread. (Actually, all of these have been.)
Hm, the Connie is rather small compared to current T5 cruisers. It it had the same stats and so much crew it would be...strange. "Canon TRIBBLE" would argue that a Connie that is three times larger than the original is not a Connie. Maybe a shift to a cruisy science ship or escort would be better and more believable.
When I was a LtC, I could kill even-con ("0") Klingon, Romulan, Gorn etc. battleships in my refit Connie. Now that I'm a VA, even-con battleships quickly demolish that very same ship, even with Mk X gear. Why is it balanced at level 25 and not at 50?
The reason your LtC ship could kill those battleships is because those weren't battleships. They were hull/shield/damage placeholders with a battleship skin. It should be painfully obvious that Cryptic doesn't design NPC's the way we design characters. They probably have a formula to generate how much damage they should take and dish out, as well as giving them a couple tier-appropriate powers. So your LtC wasn't fighting an actual Klingon battleship. If you were you'd be here saying that mission was impossible since the enemies are a couple tiers above you.
You can't use the NPC's you defeated in your T1 ship as examples simply because there is no verifiable balance to them. Your T1 connie won because it was supposed to win. Same with T5 ships vs NPC's. We're supposed to win. NPC ships are just speedbumps, nothing more.
Alternatively, if I'm not supposed to kill "T5" NPCs in a T2 ship, don't spawn them when I'm flying a T2 ship (at any character level).
A more logical approach would be to not spawn enemy ships at inappropriate tiers (so no Negh'var's at T1). But if you want your VA to fly around in a T2 ship and go visit the Borg, that's your choice. That's a well-deserved assimilation in my book.
A more logical approach would be to not spawn enemy ships at inappropriate tiers (so no Negh'var's at T1).
That's (part of) what I meant, yes.
But if you want your VA to fly around in a T2 ship and go visit the Borg, that's your choice. That's a well-deserved assimilation in my book.
What would be more fun, for me, is if I was able to still fly that T2 ship that I earned and only face T2 Borg NPC opponents. Tie the spawns to what I'm flying, not my character level (since, as you acknowledge, an Admiral in a T2 cruiser is just gonna die against Admiral-level foes). Give me T2 gear drops and data samples too, that's fine.
A more logical approach would be to not spawn enemy ships at inappropriate tiers (so no Negh'var's at T1). But if you want your VA to fly around in a T2 ship and go visit the Borg, that's your choice. That's a well-deserved assimilation in my book.
Z
Totally agree. Part of exploration would be encountering these much scarier enemies that can drop kick your little ship if it isn't prepared for them.
Edit: Modern tech, old design. The Excalibur class ship seems to sum up my argument in one simple link. Thanks! So I now, as appose to a T5 Constitution Class, I think we need a T5 Excalibur class.
Comments
So if it's not going to look exactly like a TOS Connie, why bother?
If i need to define this, then it really isnt worth the time to explain it, but ill give it a shot.
Refit.. vb , -fits, -fitting, -fitted
1. to make or be made ready for use again by repairing, re-equipping, or resupplying
New...adjective
1.
of recent origin, production, purchase, etc.; having but lately come or been brought into being:
One is taking an existing product and changing it.
The other is about creating something from nothing.
Clear enough?
So would it or would it not look exactly like a TOS Connie?
It is going to look just like the original, albeit on a much larger scale
It would be the same size, mass, internal volume, external volume as the current tier 5 or tier 6 level ships.( whichever they decide to make it)
It would have the same BO and console layout as one of the Cruiser class ships( im in favor of the assualt cruiser, but a argument for the star cruiser could be made)
This isnt limited by having a system in place that has a set amount of upgrade points, there is no upgrading involved, its a new ship that pays homage to the TOS era cruiser.
The system Captwilliams is proposing, requires a rework and addition of current game mechanics, the one most prevalent in this discussion only changes the skin basically
And you, as always, like in every other post, decide to ignore the most obvious. You constantly do it, when the info is right in front of you. For those just new to the conversation, its understandable, but you have followed these threads from the inception and know what is being discussed.
It was silly when JJ did it and it's not (IMO) what people are asking for.
My preference, at least, would be for something with the size and handling of a T2 cruiser and the shields and hull strength of a T4 or whatever it takes to not die when a T5 looks at it. Some people also want better BO consoles; I'm ambivalent or "willing to compromise" on that.
Then all you have is a mis-scaled TOS Connie. All that does is irritate an entirely different group of people who are obsessed with ship scale who will complain.
So long as it will look identical to the TOS Connie, you will have the same exact problem as before. If it's not going to look identical to the TOS Connie, then there is no point.
The defiant was almost destroyed by an Excelsior class.
And the Excelsior is about 100 years older then the Defiant.
It also had quantum torpedos, and was either a brand new ship or a recent refit. Of course, that was 50 years ago from this perspective. I'm not against connies with quantum torpedos.
Alternatively, let me set my own level at will, without needing a teammate, so that I can be a Lt. Commander or Commander again. Frankly, the only thing Admiral has going for it is that I get to fly another of my favorites from the movies, the Sovereign.
Say, there's an idea. Having put in my time and ground my way to the level cap, can I go back and have a scaled-down Sovereign at T2 or T3? Because that was, in all seriousness, the only reason I kept leveling.
The defiant was equally badly damaged. Plus the disable arguement is pointless since neither one was able to disable the other.
Also according to Memory Alpha it was an even match.
Near Earth, the Lakota and the Defiant join battle. The ships are evenly matched, and with Sisko looking on, Admiral Leyton amends his orders to prevent the Defiant from reaching Earth by whatever means necessary, even if it means destroying the Defiant.
And, one more shot would have done them in too. You forget that part,
Memory Alpha states it was an even match.
Even i the Lakota too more damage, it wasn't destroyed by the defiant outright.
That alone invalidates your arguement.
I don't want to face PvE spawns that completely overpower my chosen ship(s). I'm willing to discuss options as to best accomplish this. I am skeptical, but I'll have a look. Can you be a bit more specific, however? That was a very long thread. (Actually, all of these have been.)
The reason your LtC ship could kill those battleships is because those weren't battleships. They were hull/shield/damage placeholders with a battleship skin. It should be painfully obvious that Cryptic doesn't design NPC's the way we design characters. They probably have a formula to generate how much damage they should take and dish out, as well as giving them a couple tier-appropriate powers. So your LtC wasn't fighting an actual Klingon battleship. If you were you'd be here saying that mission was impossible since the enemies are a couple tiers above you.
You can't use the NPC's you defeated in your T1 ship as examples simply because there is no verifiable balance to them. Your T1 connie won because it was supposed to win. Same with T5 ships vs NPC's. We're supposed to win. NPC ships are just speedbumps, nothing more.
Z
Alternatively, if I'm not supposed to kill "T5" NPCs in a T2 ship, don't spawn them when I'm flying a T2 ship (at any character level).
A more logical approach would be to not spawn enemy ships at inappropriate tiers (so no Negh'var's at T1). But if you want your VA to fly around in a T2 ship and go visit the Borg, that's your choice. That's a well-deserved assimilation in my book.
Z
What would be more fun, for me, is if I was able to still fly that T2 ship that I earned and only face T2 Borg NPC opponents. Tie the spawns to what I'm flying, not my character level (since, as you acknowledge, an Admiral in a T2 cruiser is just gonna die against Admiral-level foes). Give me T2 gear drops and data samples too, that's fine.
Totally agree. Part of exploration would be encountering these much scarier enemies that can drop kick your little ship if it isn't prepared for them.