Taking overall scale out of the equation, why is an old frame design of a starship, with modern materials and technology any different? Personally, I think a more modern looking Constitution with an updated deflector dish and engines is in order and would look pretty snazzy!
I've been hearing this a lot lately through discussions and details about parts of the game that have only been apart of those discussions. Sure this game may take place in the 25th Century and we're in the middle of a war[Mostly for PVP "Story".]. But let me ask you. Why would you be so ashamed about a ship that has been brought out from mothballs to help fight a war against the KDF pops you in a round of "War Games"?
I'd love to see a paragraph from the people saying that with a whole load of detail that does not mention "Canon" or "Tiers" involved.
By the way. I'm a fan of all Era's and I love how Cryptic is putting in ships from all Era's on both factions [THANK YOU ].
If its part of a fleet engagement and is playing a role no one would be ashamed. Its still a good ship. The arguement isnt about it being a good ship cause it is. The arguemnt is that it doesnt make sense for devs to make it a tier 5 ship. Please get over it. These T5 Connie threads are absurd.
If they were to make a T5 Constitution I probably would not go out of my way to get one. HOWEVER, I think they should make one! One big argument is that the ship it's self is outdated. My argument is, only if you put outdated tech in it.
Why can Starfleet not make a ship, based off of the Constitutions design, using modern metals and modern technology? The basic starship design, speaking in cannon, has not changed all that much in the last couple of centuries. Commonly, Two warp nacelles, a body base and a Saucer Section.
I look at it more to the point that STO's ships are a lot like modern day and legacy home PCs. Especially when you consider how easy it is to switch out components! Switching out a phaser bank vs. switching out a stick of memory if you will...
One thing that still has not changed by a huge margin in terms of basic design, are the computer cases. And before you all get out your flame throwers, yes I realize cases have improved quite a bit in the last 20 years; in terms of materials, design for airflow, versatility of components, etc. The basic concept of the computer case, still remains the same!
My point is I could get an old style case and with a bit of tweaking, could still build a powerful computer that could run against a computer in a big fancy new case! Not only that, with proper funding, I could create an older style looking case out of new materials!
Taking overall scale out of the equation, why is an old frame design of a starship, with modern materials and technology any different? **Edit** Personally, I think a more modern looking Constitution with an updated deflector dish and engines is in order and would look pretty snazzy! Did not realize the Excalibur was such a ship. Does this mean it is time for a T5 Excalibur thread!!!? ;)
They did. Its called Excaliber and its in game. Get over it
They did. Its called Excaliber and its in game. Get over it
And 2 other people pointed out my over site, hence the correction in my post. But you should already know that, if you bothered to read the replies. Instead you wish to engage the forums in an uncivil manner. You should get over yourself.
And 2 other people pointed out my over site, hence the correction in my post. But you should already know that, if you bothered to read the replies. Instead you wish to engage the forums in an uncivil manner. You should get over yourself.
If you would have bothered to read the 10 other insane Connie threads we might not have had this conversation either. But I agree wihith you. I was piling on somewhat. I will give ya that.
If you would have bothered to read the 10 other insane Connie threads we might not have had this conversation either. But I agree wihith you. I was piling on somewhat. I will give ya that.
Ya, there are quite a few threads out there related to this subject. The very thought of reading through all of that is mind numbing. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, so I chose the largest of the threads. After the Excalibur argument was presented to me, I see no need for a T5 Constitution Class. I Think a T5 Excalibur makes more sense.
Ya, there are quite a few threads out there related to this subject. The very thought of reading through all of that is mind numbing. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, so I chose the largest of the threads. After the Excalibur argument was presented to me, I see no need for a T5 Constitution Class. I Think a T5 Excalibur makes more sense.
I would like to propose a peace offering. I personally like the idea of revisiting the Consitution and its proud history by taking the lessons learned from its success and making a larger new ship line called the "Consitution II". Someone on another thread suggested the Chris Madden design that I happen to like. Just a thought.
I fail to understand this ridiculous obsession people have with wanting to elevate every single damn ship in the game to T5 status.
Given the original t5 choices, Cruisers being the exception, I can. Personally, I did not care for any of the escort or science vessel designs. I think, what it falls down to, is different players prefer different areas of Star Trek. To some extent, I think they should be able to fly whatever ship they want, without heavy consequences. On the other hand, the given century in game should take some precedence.
That also drops me back to the argument, what difference does the physical design have, when using modern materials and technology.
I know a lot of Trekies out there would chase after me with torches, screaming blasphemy, but I personally think Enterprise was the best Star Trek Series, falling just short of TNG. Does that mean a T5 NX class refit should be able to take out a Negh'Var class..... I am not so sure!
I would like to propose a peace offering. I personally like the idea of revisiting the Consitution and its proud history by taking the lessons learned from its success and making a larger new ship line called the "Consitution II". Someone on another thread suggested the Chris Madden design that I happen to like. Just a thought.
I fail to understand this ridiculous obsession people have with wanting to elevate every single damn ship in the game to T5 status.
I suspect a lot of it comes down to not actually liking the Tier system, period, and/or wanting to fly any ship they please/like the looks (and other characteristics) of at the level cap without being crippled by how the game scales.
I fail to understand this ridiculous obsession people have with wanting to elevate every single damn ship in the game to T5 status.
Star Trek had a variety of starships. In the Dominion War there were everthing from Mirandas to Akiras. At endgame you have a relatively small selection of ships to use effectively. I believe (speaking for myself mainly) that people want that variety. I imagine that once the territory control PvP gets implemented, there will be mostly admirals vying for control. Both sides deserve to be represented by as many different ship types as possible.
Star Trek had a variety of starships. In the Dominion War there were everthing from Mirandas to Akiras. At endgame you have a relatively small selection of ships to use effectively. I believe (speaking for myself mainly) that people want that variety. I imagine that once the territory control PvP gets implemented, there will be mostly admirals vying for control. Both sides deserve to be represented by as many different ship types as possible.
Yes Star Trek had a variety of starships, and yes they did use everything from Miranda's to Akira's in the Dominion War.
However, the ships were never event remotely on equal footing and Miranda class ships were little more than cannon fodder.
Ultimately what needs to be done is to somehow make all Tiers viable for endgame, both Tier 1 and Tier 5 ships, but without turning Tier 1 ships etc into to something they are not.
I always felt Pirates of the Burning Sea was a game that mastered naval combat pretty well.
Major port battles was the domain of the largest and most powerful battleships and frigates, but small low level ships like Sloops and small frigates could still serve a vital purpose in PvP and area control.
While they did not have a chance in hell to take down the most powerful warships in the game, they could aid greatly in keeping said warship from escaping, slowing it down enough for the rest of the players in a group with the heavier guns to catch up.
Of course i bet such a concept would be rejected as well, as people in this game hate teamplay and want to be an ubership or one-man-fleet. :rolleyes:
I never said they were nor do I think they should be. I do think they could be at the least "uprated" a little to make them a little better. Another thought would be a new ship with familiar lines of the old ships. Sort of like what the car companies did with the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger. Yes I suppose the Excalibur fits that note.
TIER 5 VULCAN SHIP FROM ENTERPRISE SERIES MUCH OLDER THAN CONSTITUTION IN GAME!!!!
Did everyone get that?
This invalidates ALL arguments against a Tier 5 Connie.
No, it merely sets a bad precedent. And is it actually the one from Enterprise or is it an actual new, upgraded design in the same way the Excalibur is?
I WANT a new upgraded design of the Constitution as a Tier 5 ship!
The Vulcan ship is identical to it's Enterprise counterpart.
Sorry caps were necessary to get people to read.
Please explain how a blatant example of a ship even older and by your definition should not be in game does not invalidate your argument against a newer ship?
I want a new upgraded design of the Constitution as a Tier 5 ship!
The Vulcan ship is identical to it's Enterprise counterpart.
Sorry caps were necessary to get people to read.
To say that the Vulcan ship doesn't invalidate the arguments against the Tier 5 Constitution is definitely a ground fault somewhere in your processor, I suggest an R and R and please send the defective module in for testing so we can ensure the defect isn't repeated.
TOSRC is T2. I want T5.
Miranda is T1. I want T5.
If simply breaking the barrier on it invalidates all arguments against any younger ship being T5, then all ships need to have a T2-5 version, at which point, the entire thing needs to be scrapped and all ships just become skins.
I would accept that however I believe Cryptic will do it the easy way and just release an Excelsior stated Cruiser with a Connie Skin.
Same for NX-01.
Not for any "realistic" reasons, just because people want them available at end game and they are iconic ships.
The other ships will most likely wait for the refit system.
Why? That's not fair. Refit Connie is more iconic than NX. Why does it stay in T2? Excalibur is actually a new ship. Why isn't it T5? And so on and so forth.
Why? That's not fair. Refit Connie is more iconic than NX. Why does it stay in T2? Excalibur is actually a new ship. Why isn't it T5? And so on and so forth.
Good point on the 1701A, that might be an alternate skin choice for the Tier 5 Connie.
Excaliber is a Cryptic design and not iconic so it will most likely have to wait for the refit system.
Good point on the 1701A, that might be an alternate skin choice for the Tier 5 Connie.
Excaliber is a Cryptic design and not iconic so it will most likely have to wait for the refit system.
But you see the problem this creates. It is the slippery slope in action. "Why does *my* ship have to wait? My ship is newer, or more popular, or stronger in canon..." etc. This only leads to more complaining and more frustration.
Let's just refit the Tier system entirely and solve this problem without going through six months of "But but but THAT ship got a T5 retrofit!eleventy!!"
Further more on the whole issue, during the diminion wars we saw the feds us updated tos movie enterprise refit enterprise 1701-A style connies used in the fight due to faster to gut and replace equipment then to build new and low resources due to the war if it could be paired with better ships and ran it got used.
so that puts Tos Refit Enterprise A connies wich was built in 2285 or 2290 ish in 2379 less than 100 years old. and at most a connie original built in 2249ish only 150ish at most.
why does it realy matter what ship blows you up in pvp? at this point either the dude got lucky as hell, you hit the wrong key or he is just that darn good, or worse he is hacking the game cuase with less than half the weopans and equipment and with only ensign skills he destroyed your pretty Enterprise-E.
let me ask this do you scrap vintage iron becuase you have something newer in the stable, or do you do a restore full body off frame or otherwise and drive it oin the weekend or to car shows?
same concept here. i have the connie wich is an underdog compared to a soveriegn but i like it better for looks or nastalgia. wich do you drive?
Now when others depend on me to help in a mission or stf then yes my biggest newest badest comes out.
Further more on the whole issue, during the diminion wars we saw the feds us updated tos movie enterprise refit enterprise 1701-A style connies used in the fight due to faster to gut and replace equipment then to build new and low resources due to the war if it could be paired with better ships and ran it got used.
There were no Constitutions seen on screen anywhere in DS9, sans the Trials and Tribbleations time travel mission.
let me ask this do you scrap vintage iron becuase you have something newer in the stable, or do you do a restore full body off frame or otherwise and drive it oin the weekend or to car shows?
same concept here. i have the connie wich is an underdog compared to a soveriegn but i like it better for looks or nastalgia. wich do you drive?
Not the same concept at all. You're talking about a private citizen restoring a civilian vehicle, versus what a military organization would do in a time of war. We already have T0 versions of these ships, these are new built ships... ergo they are already at or near maximum potential as it is.
I don't exactly see the US Navy in any hurry to refit or make replicas of the USS Olympia, the oldest steel hulled ship in the world, simply because they think it would be cool. I don't see the USS Texas, the oldest dreadnought style battleship in the world getting any upfits either. Or the USS North Carolina, the first of the 'modern' battleships. Or any of the Iowa class, or any Fletcher class destroyers, or heck...even the real USS Enterprise CV-6. Not only was it decommissioned after the war in favor of the Essex class, they scrapped her. The most decorated and famous US warship of WWII.
Comments
It's in the game already: Excalibur, Tier 2.
They did.
Z
EDIT: Ah, LotD beat me to it.
If its part of a fleet engagement and is playing a role no one would be ashamed. Its still a good ship. The arguement isnt about it being a good ship cause it is. The arguemnt is that it doesnt make sense for devs to make it a tier 5 ship. Please get over it. These T5 Connie threads are absurd.
Thank you I was about to say.....
They did. Its called Excaliber and its in game. Get over it
And 2 other people pointed out my over site, hence the correction in my post. But you should already know that, if you bothered to read the replies. Instead you wish to engage the forums in an uncivil manner. You should get over yourself.
If you would have bothered to read the 10 other insane Connie threads we might not have had this conversation either. But I agree wihith you. I was piling on somewhat. I will give ya that.
Ya, there are quite a few threads out there related to this subject. The very thought of reading through all of that is mind numbing. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, so I chose the largest of the threads. After the Excalibur argument was presented to me, I see no need for a T5 Constitution Class. I Think a T5 Excalibur makes more sense.
I would like to propose a peace offering. I personally like the idea of revisiting the Consitution and its proud history by taking the lessons learned from its success and making a larger new ship line called the "Consitution II". Someone on another thread suggested the Chris Madden design that I happen to like. Just a thought.
http://www.startrekonline.com/enterprise/gallery?filter=rated
Given the original t5 choices, Cruisers being the exception, I can. Personally, I did not care for any of the escort or science vessel designs. I think, what it falls down to, is different players prefer different areas of Star Trek. To some extent, I think they should be able to fly whatever ship they want, without heavy consequences. On the other hand, the given century in game should take some precedence.
That also drops me back to the argument, what difference does the physical design have, when using modern materials and technology.
I know a lot of Trekies out there would chase after me with torches, screaming blasphemy, but I personally think Enterprise was the best Star Trek Series, falling just short of TNG. Does that mean a T5 NX class refit should be able to take out a Negh'Var class..... I am not so sure!
That is a cool looking ship!
/end thread
Yes, and while it's a fine-looking alternate skin for the T2 cruiser, I still prefer the one that looks like TMP/WOK/etc.
Star Trek had a variety of starships. In the Dominion War there were everthing from Mirandas to Akiras. At endgame you have a relatively small selection of ships to use effectively. I believe (speaking for myself mainly) that people want that variety. I imagine that once the territory control PvP gets implemented, there will be mostly admirals vying for control. Both sides deserve to be represented by as many different ship types as possible.
Yes Star Trek had a variety of starships, and yes they did use everything from Miranda's to Akira's in the Dominion War.
However, the ships were never event remotely on equal footing and Miranda class ships were little more than cannon fodder.
Ultimately what needs to be done is to somehow make all Tiers viable for endgame, both Tier 1 and Tier 5 ships, but without turning Tier 1 ships etc into to something they are not.
I always felt Pirates of the Burning Sea was a game that mastered naval combat pretty well.
Major port battles was the domain of the largest and most powerful battleships and frigates, but small low level ships like Sloops and small frigates could still serve a vital purpose in PvP and area control.
While they did not have a chance in hell to take down the most powerful warships in the game, they could aid greatly in keeping said warship from escaping, slowing it down enough for the rest of the players in a group with the heavier guns to catch up.
Of course i bet such a concept would be rejected as well, as people in this game hate teamplay and want to be an ubership or one-man-fleet. :rolleyes:
Allow me,
Pay close attention now and read the following:
TIER 5 VULCAN SHIP FROM ENTERPRISE SERIES MUCH OLDER THAN CONSTITUTION IN GAME!!!!
Did everyone get that?
This invalidates ALL arguments against a Tier 5 Connie.
No, it merely sets a bad precedent. And is it actually the one from Enterprise or is it an actual new, upgraded design in the same way the Excalibur is?
Agreed good sir
Read this next carefully please:
I WANT a new upgraded design of the Constitution as a Tier 5 ship!
The Vulcan ship is identical to it's Enterprise counterpart.
Sorry caps were necessary to get people to read.
Please explain how a blatant example of a ship even older and by your definition should not be in game does not invalidate your argument against a newer ship?
TOSRC is T2. I want T5.
Miranda is T1. I want T5.
If simply breaking the barrier on it invalidates all arguments against any younger ship being T5, then all ships need to have a T2-5 version, at which point, the entire thing needs to be scrapped and all ships just become skins.
Same for NX-01.
Not for any "realistic" reasons, just because people want them available at end game and they are iconic ships.
The other ships will most likely wait for the refit system.
Why? That's not fair. Refit Connie is more iconic than NX. Why does it stay in T2? Excalibur is actually a new ship. Why isn't it T5? And so on and so forth.
Good point on the 1701A, that might be an alternate skin choice for the Tier 5 Connie.
Excaliber is a Cryptic design and not iconic so it will most likely have to wait for the refit system.
But you see the problem this creates. It is the slippery slope in action. "Why does *my* ship have to wait? My ship is newer, or more popular, or stronger in canon..." etc. This only leads to more complaining and more frustration.
Let's just refit the Tier system entirely and solve this problem without going through six months of "But but but THAT ship got a T5 retrofit!eleventy!!"
so that puts Tos Refit Enterprise A connies wich was built in 2285 or 2290 ish in 2379 less than 100 years old. and at most a connie original built in 2249ish only 150ish at most.
why does it realy matter what ship blows you up in pvp? at this point either the dude got lucky as hell, you hit the wrong key or he is just that darn good, or worse he is hacking the game cuase with less than half the weopans and equipment and with only ensign skills he destroyed your pretty Enterprise-E.
let me ask this do you scrap vintage iron becuase you have something newer in the stable, or do you do a restore full body off frame or otherwise and drive it oin the weekend or to car shows?
same concept here. i have the connie wich is an underdog compared to a soveriegn but i like it better for looks or nastalgia. wich do you drive?
Now when others depend on me to help in a mission or stf then yes my biggest newest badest comes out.
There were no Constitutions seen on screen anywhere in DS9, sans the Trials and Tribbleations time travel mission.
Not the same concept at all. You're talking about a private citizen restoring a civilian vehicle, versus what a military organization would do in a time of war. We already have T0 versions of these ships, these are new built ships... ergo they are already at or near maximum potential as it is.
I don't exactly see the US Navy in any hurry to refit or make replicas of the USS Olympia, the oldest steel hulled ship in the world, simply because they think it would be cool. I don't see the USS Texas, the oldest dreadnought style battleship in the world getting any upfits either. Or the USS North Carolina, the first of the 'modern' battleships. Or any of the Iowa class, or any Fletcher class destroyers, or heck...even the real USS Enterprise CV-6. Not only was it decommissioned after the war in favor of the Essex class, they scrapped her. The most decorated and famous US warship of WWII.
Actually. if you glance in at some of the lineups. there are 2 or 3 constitution refits you can only see under.