Sins just stop it

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

@Hot :

I understand what you say even if I don't agree with everything ^^
Of course AS combo is OP (maybe more for demon mystics than for sage one though) and AS as a lot of advantages in endgame PVP especially if people are buffed (it doesn't bypass immunities as you said but defensive charms, plume shell, and so on, which is OP). But this is just a weird skill that fits perfectly to the weirdest class in this game. And AS was already OP (maybe even more for some reasons) when mystics were underestimated.

And I totally disagree when you say mystics have more DPH than wizards.
I can't hit dammage puppet with 2M hits like all those wizzies (my best is 1M7).
I can't out DPS the well known wizard in my faction (of course because of AS this is not easy to test) if he has same buff as me (invigorate included).
This same wizard hit me with 25k by using triple spark+BT (i was not full buffed but had 30 def phy). Ok you need 5 sparks to do that but I'm talking about an AOE that would have OS almost everyone...Mystics can't do that as far as I know.

So I can't consider mystics being as good DD as Wizzies. I'm not complaining about that because Mystics can still DD efficiently and do other things (I do actually consider that mystics are better than wizzies overall, or in 1v1). But I think you go too far when you insinuate mystics are better DD.

And this is not because mystics are good healers or have the best survivability amongst AA that they're not supposed to DD at all. Wizzies are a DD class but they have some CC skils and a heal...
By the way, I think mystics already had better healing skills than clerics even one year ago.

Anyway I insist on the fact that Mystics are not the class you're supposed to QQ about. This is not as if it was a popular class even now and I never saw any mystic complaining even when 80% of people were considering them as a crappy class. I don't know if mystics are better post NH than pre NH (compared to other classes) but if they're better now, then people who were considering them as **** are not supposed to find it unfair...

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is the problem with imbalance, especially regarding assassins. No matter how "great " you are, your top damage output/tanking capabilities will be INHERENTLY, significantly lower than anyone who plays a sin just because they are playing a sin.
You may be able to try new things, but they will also have access to anything that you have access to, with the sole exception of stealth detection pots.

The hard truth is that no matter what you do, what class you play, what genie you have...on equal gear/skill level as an assassin, you will, almost with 100% certainty, lose to them. Most likely after just that one skill( elimination). Do you realize how broken this is?

Essentially what you are saying is "well it's not broken as long as the sin is really REALLY reeaaaallyy stupid"...but needing to rely on the extreme stupidity of your opponent says a lot about just how nasty the degree of imbalance is, and it doesn't at all help anyone who argues against the fact. If anything, it serves to show just how wrong you are.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Last time i checked sins were THE 1v1 class. Now they aren't even supposed to be a 1v1 class?

And for the record, sins are able to beat better geared plyers BECAUSE of their stupidity. Mainly because not that many people know how to play a sin as well as they think they do, and a lot of the ones that think they do, are barely scratching the surface.

Does a sin have access to self buffs that increase inherent defenses, and can be up 100% of the time? No. What we have instead is a choice between 2 buffs, 1 blocks statuses, the other blocks damage. Demons get a bit of both. We also have a fatal blow canceler, which can only be used for 1 hit or DoT tick, and isnt up 100% of the time.

Saying that a classes damage/tanking ability is always lower than a sins is just ludacris. Have you seen an endgame seeker? Are you gonna tell me that a sin is tankier than that? Especially in mass pvp?

I have noticed that a lot of sins are smarter than you think. If you think its so easy to play a sin, then play one. In PvP and TW, not PvE. If the class is as good as you say you will do great, until you don't.

If an close to endgame deity sin can hit my sin, and I can survive elimination, these +12 jaded people should be fine. It seems like something is missing. I don't know what, but when I get the skill I'll find out for myself. Too many biased opinions on this forum, and the grass is always greener on the other side.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Thread link: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1684301

Vid link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXGdlH6bU78

overcomem wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxVWhXfMIts b:chuckle

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Last time i checked sins were THE 1v1 class. Now they aren't even supposed to be a 1v1 class?

And for the record, sins are able to beat better geared plyers BECAUSE of their stupidity. Mainly because not that many people know how to play a sin as well as they think they do, and a lot of the ones that think they do, are barely scratching the surface.

Does a sin have access to self buffs that increase inherent defenses, and can be up 100% of the time? No. What we have instead is a choice between 2 buffs, 1 blocks statuses, the other blocks damage. Demons get a bit of both. We also have a fatal blow canceler, which can only be used for 1 hit or DoT tick, and isnt up 100% of the time.

Saying that a classes damage/tanking ability is always lower than a sins is just ludacris. Have you seen an endgame seeker? Are you gonna tell me that a sin is tankier than that? Especially in mass pvp?

I have noticed that a lot of sins are smarter than you think. If you think its so easy to play a sin, then play one. In PvP and TW, not PvE. If the class is as good as you say you will do great, until you don't.

If an close to endgame deity sin can hit my sin, and I can survive elimination, these +12 jaded people should be fine. It seems like something is missing. I don't know what, but when I get the skill I'll find out for myself. Too many biased opinions on this forum, and the grass is always greener on the other side.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Guys,
Come to Lost City server some time where end game sins rule supreme in both 1v1 and group pvp so long as they remain buffed.

Sure, a self buffed sin is relatively squishy, but absolutely anybody with end game gear (full +12, JosD, maxed S cards) is virtually unkillable without stacked debuffs when they have full buffs. Doesn't matter the class.

This is where sins become unstoppable at end game.
Tidal prevents 66% of all debuffs, purges, stuns, amps, etc and is only down for 30 seconds at a time. Wasting over half your max chi to do nothing on a target 2/3 the time bites.
And you don't need just 1 thing to hit, you need a couple.
You stun a full buffed end game person but can't amp? You won't break their charm.
You amp the person but left them mobile? They'll get away or interrupt you.

Aside from just that 30 sec down time,
They have force stealth
They have deaden nerves
They have some of the absolute highest evasion in the game

I can tell you personally as a BM, even if the 66% evade didn't save them my 200 dex vs their 900 often does.

That's another difference.
Every other non-magic class aside from EAs needs to split their stats to have reasonable accuracy. I shove 200 into dex personally but am considering lowering my damage output further to actually be able to hit sins/EAs reliably in the first place.

Aside from the accuracy/evasion aspect, that is also a reason sins hit so much higher in the first place. 900+ dex = +45% crit naturally and gives them a much higher than average dmg modifier. Don't even get me started on how this effects skills like lifehunter.

Tidal is what's making this class unbeatable.

Best chance vs them is a pure str barb tanking then spamming 100% accuracy skills.

Edit : Fixed for Zanryu.. lol....

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You guys are silly. The problem is clearly the buff pill, not tidal protection. Just read the arguments, nearly all of them refer to the buff pill in some way.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're not supposed to fight fully buffed in 1v1 anyway because that's just going through the motions until you purge.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That's cute too. If it's 1v1 you do it self buffed. Otherwise refuse the 1v1 and gank them; it's fair game.

If you don't have anyone that can back you up, that's a different story.

peckked wrote: »

I wonder... since we have weird arbitrary rules for 1vs1 like only being self buffed ever!!!! or never using pots/genies in duels, maybe we can come up with others like only barbs with helms ini edits can be str build, or you can only use skills that cost less than 100MP. Am I the only one who thinks this is all just a little silly? If you can agree on ground rules then fine. But to insist upon those same rules with the next person? And worse, to insult them because they play by the rules set out by the game, and not arbitrary ones one person wants... Personally, whenever I avoid the use of my genie in a duel I feel like I've lost some skill. It's as if I'm actively training myself to not do something that makes perfect sense to do.

I can play chess with someone and agree not to use our queens, but I can hardly expect the next person to agree to it. It also fundamentally changes the game, rendering any outcome meaningless. Without the use of my queen it really isn't chess anymore. Does this not apply to these arbitrary rules in PW?

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

The reason for the unwritten rule of self buffed 1v1s is because with buffs it becomes too hard for any one class to kill any other class. It then becomes a game of "Who can purge first?" because once that happens the person who purged their opponent has a massive advantage and becomes extremely likely to win just because they have buffs and the other person doesn't. 1v1s should be about your own strength, not the strength of your buffs.

There's never been any rule about not going all out in duels, whoever you heard that from or whoever you saw trying to enforce such a thing are complete idiots.

Your chess analogy holds no ground here. The queen is an essential part of Chess, while having full buffs is not an essential part of 1v1s. Self buffed 1v1s are like both players adding a piece to the board that gives your king full immunity. In order to win that piece must be taken out, only Assassins have a special one that can't be removed from the game 66% of the time while yours can be taken out at their leisure.

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Sure. Then we can just sit there like idiots as they stealth away back to safe zone

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Detection Pots.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It seems to be the common consensus sins are a 1v1 class around here, or do I need to dig up all the fact related ifo on this analogy to prove my point. I could probably dig up a quote where even you have said sins are a 1v1 class, a duelist.

Yeah. 1v1 class. Yet they're also insanely good in group PvP.


I was refering to the higher geared player. How is it that my +7 r9rr was able to consistantly kill a r9rr+10-+12 psy? I know more about fighting psy's than this person does sins, and it could also be that this person is not a good psy, who knows. A lot of people don't understand the sin class as much as they think they do, and this has been shown countless times on the forums. I fight endgame psy's on a regular basis, but there are no endgame sins on my server (that we know of that still play). They say sins are so OP, even without these skills, without realizing that the problem is not the sin, it is their knowledge. They lack knowledge of what the class can do, so they will lose consistantly. For me atm, I have the hardest time against clerics. Even with Tidal, you can't dodge every status thrown at you.

If YOU can farm an end game Psy, they're not end game. A true end game Psychic would two shot someone with your gear at worst.

It's true that when someone doesn't know how classes work they're at a disadvantage, but there are people on the forum who DO know how they work, and they can agree that Assassins are broken. That says something.



Except when they don't....Seriously? If you purged the sin within 2 mins, they wasted apo cd pretty much. Buff pots werent even a factor in my argument. If you wanna derail to prove a point that didn't even need to be made, fine. But it's extremely dishonest. They can be easily dispacted as they were put on, and considering tidal only has a 60 sec duration and 90 sec cd, you have 30 secs to purge those buffs. Even with a purge bow, that is PLENTY of time.

That's the problem. Because of Tidal Protection it's nearly impossible to purge them in that two minutes, and if they're buffed before the fight starts that means you have to purge them TWICE. Using a purge weapon just doesn't work because you can't actually lock the Assassin down, they can lock you down and prevent you from attacking while you're trying to purge. Why can't you lock them down? Because of Tidal. It's what allows them to prevent being counter locked and make your already abysmal chances of purging even worse.

So do endgame archers, that have 2-2.5x a sins physical attack... And hit that hard 100% of the time, not relying on zerk to proc. Considering i need to blow about 10 SPARKS to kill a similarly geared seeker, while to kill another sin i barely even need 2...This seems to be nothing but a Tidal QQ post.

You know what the key difference is? They don't have Tidal.

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

i dont know if you realized yet the gap in damage output between assassins and all the others classes, i get 5 digits on full buffs from assassins that i outgear

i think bm can stand a chance vs sins, but not even barbs imo, CCs+dps and the barb is gone eventho i witnessed a case of full josd barb with 120 def lvl 60k p res 400 spirit getting 53k from an assassin in 1on1 situation ( fiftythree kay man )
this kind of damage on this kind of defenses induces you to think sin is hacking xD

eventho there was a double damage **** for few server versions ago (not sure about the mechanic of the ****\bug exploit) wondering if there is something like that around still xD

HESOKA - Raging Tide wrote: »

I've heard of those barbs, am pretty sure they get easily ranged DD'ed, Tackling slash lasts 11 seconds by the assassin and the sin just keeps spamming lifehunter/elimination, sleep when its about to end, tackling slash and repeat, very simple.

Now Assume the two class's go at each other no CC or ranged DD, you'd easily notice that the barb can out damage the assassin by a FarCry, which suggests that as long as the barb utilizes a well genie: With remove immobilize, and prevent himself from being remobilized again, IE: immune to movement debuffs when necessary, they can avoid the ranged DD and put the assassin in defence mode the whole time.

I've have faced barbs, in all honestly, if they make tackling slash seem as an 11 second stun
than obviously not much can be argued about here, the barb will just get completely demolished.

you might as well realize that the only way an assassin can effectively lock a target is with: Immobilize, headhunt,

Telestun is only 3 seconds long
Elimination is only about 2.5 seconds long

neither is long enough to put the barb at any risk, hence:

The barb can literally hold W,A,S,D and walk around till tidal is gone, remove immobilize as soon as the assassin casts it, any attempt at any stuns would make them very ineffective, IE stunning a barb on tiger form Full HP is just a big waste.

Just Fined Tactics, Skill is defiantly involved,but as you are a wizard i don't think any skill you acquire will get you a kill vs a sin at equal skill, your only chance is a 1v1 with a sin thats unfamiliar with wizard skills, or tactics,

But evan so, a wizard still has some gap of a chance killing an assassin, Ie with a respectful amour of puffy prcoks, but a wizard, CANOT, and WILL NEVER, kill any BM / CLERIC at equal gear.

If you ask me, I'd rather face a class that i can hardly survive to kill, than face a class they i can't kill but can survive longer against.