Sins just stop it

Zoldi - Morai

@Hot :

I understand what you say even if I don't agree with everything ^^
Of course AS combo is OP (maybe more for demon mystics than for sage one though) and AS as a lot of advantages in endgame PVP especially if people are buffed (it doesn't bypass immunities as you said but defensive charms, plume shell, and so on, which is OP). But this is just a weird skill that fits perfectly to the weirdest class in this game. And AS was already OP (maybe even more for some reasons) when mystics were underestimated.

And I totally disagree when you say mystics have more DPH than wizards.
I can't hit dammage puppet with 2M hits like all those wizzies (my best is 1M7).
I can't out DPS the well known wizard in my faction (of course because of AS this is not easy to test) if he has same buff as me (invigorate included).
This same wizard hit me with 25k by using triple spark+BT (i was not full buffed but had 30 def phy). Ok you need 5 sparks to do that but I'm talking about an AOE that would have OS almost everyone...Mystics can't do that as far as I know.

So I can't consider mystics being as good DD as Wizzies. I'm not complaining about that because Mystics can still DD efficiently and do other things (I do actually consider that mystics are better than wizzies overall, or in 1v1). But I think you go too far when you insinuate mystics are better DD.

And this is not because mystics are good healers or have the best survivability amongst AA that they're not supposed to DD at all. Wizzies are a DD class but they have some CC skils and a heal...
By the way, I think mystics already had better healing skills than clerics even one year ago.

Anyway I insist on the fact that Mystics are not the class you're supposed to QQ about. This is not as if it was a popular class even now and I never saw any mystic complaining even when 80% of people were considering them as a crappy class. I don't know if mystics are better post NH than pre NH (compared to other classes) but if they're better now, then people who were considering them as **** are not supposed to find it unfair...

XXHotXx - Morai

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

@Hot :

I understand what you say even if I don't agree with everything ^^
Of course AS combo is OP (maybe more for demon mystics than for sage one though) and AS as a lot of advantages in endgame PVP especially if people are buffed (it doesn't bypass immunities as you said but defensive charms, plume shell, and so on, which is OP). But this is just a weird skill that fits perfectly to the weirdest class in this game. And AS was already OP (maybe even more for some reasons) when mystics were underestimated.

And I totally disagree when you say mystics have more DPH than wizards.
I can't hit dammage puppet with 2M hits like all those wizzies (my best is 1M7).
I can't out DPS the well known wizard in my faction (of course because of AS this is not easy to test) if he has same buff as me (invigorate included).
This same wizard hit me with 25k by using triple spark+BT (i was not full buffed but had 30 def phy). Ok you need 5 sparks to do that but I'm talking about an AOE that would have OS almost everyone...Mystics can't do that as far as I know.

So I can't consider mystics being as good DD as Wizzies. I'm not complaining about that because Mystics can still DD efficiently and do other things (I do actually consider that mystics are better than wizzies overall, or in 1v1). But I think you go too far when you insinuate mystics are better DD.

And this is not because mystics are good healers or have the best survivability amongst AA that they're not supposed to DD at all. Wizzies are a DD class but they have some CC skils and a heal...
By the way, I think mystics already had better healing skills than clerics even one year ago.

Anyway I insist on the fact that Mystics are not the class you're supposed to QQ about. This is not as if it was a popular class even now and I never saw any mystic complaining even when 80% of people were considering them as a crappy class. I don't know if mystics are better post NH than pre NH (compared to other classes) but if they're better now, then people who were considering them as **** are not supposed to find it unfair...

well yea you right if we consider that both you and wizard are endgame but not very endgame (=S card set lvl 80)

@ very endgame your phis. damage reduction coming from p. res will be really similar to wizard one, and 3spark blade tempests will be very far from being able to bypass your charm

and you cant really compare the damage dealt to the test mob when basically you cant have an appraisal on a 3spark growth as combo (that should theorically be 3,25 times the damage you dealt with normal skill ^^ so if you did 1.7mil on test mob, assuming you critted to do the 1.7mil therefore base hit was 850k, your AS being 3,25x your base damage should theorically deal 2,76mil
you have heals and "weird mechanics" CCs
i'd say a pretty balanced class

what is not balanced and what i am QQing about, its not mystics or sins...

it's the main DD classes (wiz, archers in primis) that have less DD capability than a support class and than a "killer" (carry) class (assassins), and they have similar if not inferior survivability

as i said elimination and AS combo have 320% and 325% base damage multiplier attack skills, and they are completely chi-cost free and almost cooldowns free

wizard to reach that damage output value has to blast 5 sparks in a 3spark BT
archer cant reach that damage value

broken game is broken

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Caydon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But I think that's where the difference between the good and the great players come in. Good players just kinda deal with it and accept that they can't win sins.

Great players keep trying new combos, genie skill sets, and new attack set ups to see how they can do better each time. Cause technically there's always room to improve, unless you're already full r9rr +12 JOSDs. And even then your skill could get a rework.

This is the problem with imbalance, especially regarding assassins. No matter how "great " you are, your top damage output/tanking capabilities will be INHERENTLY, significantly lower than anyone who plays a sin just because they are playing a sin.
You may be able to try new things, but they will also have access to anything that you have access to, with the sole exception of stealth detection pots.

The hard truth is that no matter what you do, what class you play, what genie you have...on equal gear/skill level as an assassin, you will, almost with 100% certainty, lose to them. Most likely after just that one skill( elimination). Do you realize how broken this is?

Essentially what you are saying is "well it's not broken as long as the sin is really REALLY reeaaaallyy stupid"...but needing to rely on the extreme stupidity of your opponent says a lot about just how nasty the degree of imbalance is, and it doesn't at all help anyone who argues against the fact. If anything, it serves to show just how wrong you are.

Eoria - Harshlands

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is the problem with imbalance, especially regarding assassins. No matter how "great " you are, your top damage output/tanking capabilities will be INHERENTLY, significantly lower than anyone who plays a sin just because they are playing a sin.
You may be able to try new things, but they will also have access to anything that you have access to, with the sole exception of stealth detection pots.

The hard truth is that no matter what you do, what class you play, what genie you have...on equal gear/skill level as an assassin, you will, almost with 100% certainty, lose to them. Most likely after just that one skill( elimination). Do you realize how broken this is?

Essentially what you are saying is "well it's not broken as long as the sin is really REALLY reeaaaallyy stupid"...but needing to rely on the extreme stupidity of your opponent says a lot about just how nasty the degree of imbalance is, and it doesn't at all help anyone who argues against the fact. If anything, it serves to show just how wrong you are.

I think I need to bookmark this post so every time someone comes into a thread saying "but sins are dumb/in aps gear/don't have the new primal skills/etc.", I can just link to it...

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is the problem with imbalance, especially regarding assassins. No matter how "great " you are, your top damage output/tanking capabilities will be INHERENTLY, significantly lower than anyone who plays a sin just because they are playing a sin.
You may be able to try new things, but they will also have access to anything that you have access to, with the sole exception of stealth detection pots.

The hard truth is that no matter what you do, what class you play, what genie you have...on equal gear/skill level as an assassin, you will, almost with 100% certainty, lose to them. Most likely after just that one skill( elimination). Do you realize how broken this is?

Essentially what you are saying is "well it's not broken as long as the sin is really REALLY reeaaaallyy stupid"...but needing to rely on the extreme stupidity of your opponent says a lot about just how nasty the degree of imbalance is, and it doesn't at all help anyone who argues against the fact. If anything, it serves to show just how wrong you are.

Last time i checked sins were THE 1v1 class. Now they aren't even supposed to be a 1v1 class?

And for the record, sins are able to beat better geared plyers BECAUSE of their stupidity. Mainly because not that many people know how to play a sin as well as they think they do, and a lot of the ones that think they do, are barely scratching the surface.

Does a sin have access to self buffs that increase inherent defenses, and can be up 100% of the time? No. What we have instead is a choice between 2 buffs, 1 blocks statuses, the other blocks damage. Demons get a bit of both. We also have a fatal blow canceler, which can only be used for 1 hit or DoT tick, and isnt up 100% of the time.

Saying that a classes damage/tanking ability is always lower than a sins is just ludacris. Have you seen an endgame seeker? Are you gonna tell me that a sin is tankier than that? Especially in mass pvp?

I have noticed that a lot of sins are smarter than you think. If you think its so easy to play a sin, then play one. In PvP and TW, not PvE. If the class is as good as you say you will do great, until you don't.

If an close to endgame deity sin can hit my sin, and I can survive elimination, these +12 jaded people should be fine. It seems like something is missing. I don't know what, but when I get the skill I'll find out for myself. Too many biased opinions on this forum, and the grass is always greener on the other side.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Last time i checked sins were THE 1v1 class. Now they aren't even supposed to be a 1v1 class?

And for the record, sins are able to beat better geared plyers BECAUSE of their stupidity. Mainly because not that many people know how to play a sin as well as they think they do, and a lot of the ones that think they do, are barely scratching the surface.

Does a sin have access to self buffs that increase inherent defenses, and can be up 100% of the time? No. What we have instead is a choice between 2 buffs, 1 blocks statuses, the other blocks damage. Demons get a bit of both. We also have a fatal blow canceler, which can only be used for 1 hit or DoT tick, and isnt up 100% of the time.

Saying that a classes damage/tanking ability is always lower than a sins is just ludacris. Have you seen an endgame seeker? Are you gonna tell me that a sin is tankier than that? Especially in mass pvp?

I have noticed that a lot of sins are smarter than you think. If you think its so easy to play a sin, then play one. In PvP and TW, not PvE. If the class is as good as you say you will do great, until you don't.

If an close to endgame deity sin can hit my sin, and I can survive elimination, these +12 jaded people should be fine. It seems like something is missing. I don't know what, but when I get the skill I'll find out for myself. Too many biased opinions on this forum, and the grass is always greener on the other side.

LOL what are you even trying to say when you call them the "1v1 class". This means that sins are somehow supposed to be able to kill everyone else 1 on 1 inherently because of their class? If this is your beginning point, anything you say or ever have said about sins not being broken, which you say a lot, is completely contradictory/ invalid. "Sins are supposed to be able to kill everyone else just because they can, BUT THEY ARE COMPLETELY BALANCED"- wtf?

KuruTu - Harshlands

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Last time i checked sins were THE 1v1 class. Now they aren't even supposed to be a 1v1 class?

And for the record, sins are able to beat better geared plyers BECAUSE of their stupidity. Mainly because not that many people know how to play a sin as well as they think they do, and a lot of the ones that think they do, are barely scratching the surface.

Does a sin have access to self buffs that increase inherent defenses, and can be up 100% of the time? No. What we have instead is a choice between 2 buffs, 1 blocks statuses, the other blocks damage. Demons get a bit of both. We also have a fatal blow canceler, which can only be used for 1 hit or DoT tick, and isnt up 100% of the time.

Saying that a classes damage/tanking ability is always lower than a sins is just ludacris. Have you seen an endgame seeker? Are you gonna tell me that a sin is tankier than that? Especially in mass pvp?

I have noticed that a lot of sins are smarter than you think. If you think its so easy to play a sin, then play one. In PvP and TW, not PvE. If the class is as good as you say you will do great, until you don't.

If an close to endgame deity sin can hit my sin, and I can survive elimination, these +12 jaded people should be fine. It seems like something is missing. I don't know what, but when I get the skill I'll find out for myself. Too many biased opinions on this forum, and the grass is always greener on the other side.

Lolz:

Sins can use Spirit of Defense now, while you are unable to purge them, so that point is completely invalid.

Endgame seeker tanky? Just get a veno and mage, and tada, its dead, why? Because you can actually purge them, CC them and debuff their mdef, WHILE u wont be able to do that to a sin lol

If you watch vid I linked and still claim Sins are balanced, then there is no point to try to talk some sense into you

Kniraven - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Thread link: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1684301

Vid link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXGdlH6bU78

overcomem wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxVWhXfMIts b:chuckle

Nobody in either one of those videos is endgame or even close to it.
I know all 3 of them, and their gear.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Last time i checked sins were THE 1v1 class. Now they aren't even supposed to be a 1v1 class?

And for the record, sins are able to beat better geared plyers BECAUSE of their stupidity. Mainly because not that many people know how to play a sin as well as they think they do, and a lot of the ones that think they do, are barely scratching the surface.

Does a sin have access to self buffs that increase inherent defenses, and can be up 100% of the time? No. What we have instead is a choice between 2 buffs, 1 blocks statuses, the other blocks damage. Demons get a bit of both. We also have a fatal blow canceler, which can only be used for 1 hit or DoT tick, and isnt up 100% of the time.

Saying that a classes damage/tanking ability is always lower than a sins is just ludacris. Have you seen an endgame seeker? Are you gonna tell me that a sin is tankier than that? Especially in mass pvp?

I have noticed that a lot of sins are smarter than you think. If you think its so easy to play a sin, then play one. In PvP and TW, not PvE. If the class is as good as you say you will do great, until you don't.

If an close to endgame deity sin can hit my sin, and I can survive elimination, these +12 jaded people should be fine. It seems like something is missing. I don't know what, but when I get the skill I'll find out for myself. Too many biased opinions on this forum, and the grass is always greener on the other side.

That's cute. Who decided that, and what does that mean? You think sins should be able to beat everyone 1v1? lol.
Sins beat higher geared players because higher geared players of other classes are stupid? BUT, the sins themselves are ALSO stupid?

Yeah, they are called buff pots. They are pretty nifty for sins too because sins can dodge purge 66% the time.

Yeah, you can dodge 66% of all stuns, amps, immobilizes, purges, you name it. Most of them cost a lot of chi so people end up just blowing half their total chi on you for no reason whatsoever with the use of a single skill. Should they actually manage to be successful that 1/3 the time you can:
A.) Kite if they Amp you
B.) Tank if they stun you and your gear is similar
C.) On the occasion you're outgeared or unbuffed, and/or your enemy managed to both immobilize AND amp you, you can faith/domain OR survive off deaden. What do you do while they are in cooldown for 1 minute? Stealth, Kite, etc.

Yes, sins are tankier.
They have 66% to dodge purge, 66% chance to dodge amps/immobilize, and deaden nerves to boot. Additionally, end game sins have over 900 dex which makes hitting them stupidly hard for 3 out of 10 classes.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Guys,
Come to Lost City server some time where end game sins rule supreme in both 1v1 and group pvp so long as they remain buffed.

Sure, a self buffed sin is relatively squishy, but absolutely anybody with end game gear (full +12, JosD, maxed S cards) is virtually unkillable without stacked debuffs when they have full buffs. Doesn't matter the class.

This is where sins become unstoppable at end game.
Tidal prevents 66% of all debuffs, purges, stuns, amps, etc and is only down for 30 seconds at a time. Wasting over half your max chi to do nothing on a target 2/3 the time bites.
And you don't need just 1 thing to hit, you need a couple.
You stun a full buffed end game person but can't amp? You won't break their charm.
You amp the person but left them mobile? They'll get away or interrupt you.

Aside from just that 30 sec down time,
They have force stealth
They have deaden nerves
They have some of the absolute highest evasion in the game

I can tell you personally as a BM, even if the 66% evade didn't save them my 200 dex vs their 900 often does.

That's another difference.
Every other non-magic class aside from EAs needs to split their stats to have reasonable accuracy. I shove 200 into dex personally but am considering lowering my damage output further to actually be able to hit sins/EAs reliably in the first place.

Aside from the accuracy/evasion aspect, that is also a reason sins hit so much higher in the first place. 900+ dex = +45% crit naturally and gives them a much higher than average dmg modifier. Don't even get me started on how this effects skills like lifehunter.

Tidal is what's making this class unbeatable.

Best chance vs them is a pure str barb tanking then spamming 100% accuracy skills.

Edit : Fixed for Zanryu.. lol....

Zanryu - Lothranis

KuruTu - Harshlands wrote: »

Lolz:

Sins can use Spirit of Defense now, while you are unable to purge them, so that point is completely invalid.

Endgame seeker tanky? Just get a veno and mage, and tada, its dead, why? Because you can actually purge them, CC them and debuff their mdef, WHILE u wont be able to do that to a sin lol

If you watch vid I linked and still claim Sins are balanced, then there is no point to try to talk some sense into you

This is one of the exact reasons Sins are complete bs.


If they want to sit there and just not die, all they need to do is use Spirit of Defense. In a 1v1 it's difficult to kill any class through buffs, they give a large amount to your defenses. It can be done, but in most cases you'll either need to purge their buffs while locking them down so they can't rebuff, or apply damage amps to get through their charm.

The issue against an Assassin is this is virtually impossible. You have a 66% chance to not land ANYTHING. You're unlikely to be able to purge an Assassin during Tidal Protection, and assuming you actually can, you won't be able to capitalize on it because of how often they can avoid CC. It's a very rare occasion that they need to use their genie while Tidal is up due to being able to avoid must CC and amps with such ease. They can pop an SoD at the start of the fight, avoid your purge/cc/amps, and sit there and spam you with CC, double sparks, and Lifehunter/Elimination while you can do almost nothing to stop it.

Assassins have extreme damage output, they can drop most targets with ease once they've forced defensive options. Even heavy armor classes have to be extremely careful not to blow their cooldowns or they die in a single lock. Only two classes really have the means to tank them for a good while and take them out. This becomes near impossible once they use a Spirit of Defense because the damage you deal becomes far too little to straight up kill them. There's no way to counter-lock them, there's no way to amp them, you're stuck fighting a buffed up monstrosity while you can't even do the same for yourself because it'll do nothing but waste your apothecary cooldowns.

"But Zanryu, it'll even up the fight because you're both buffed!"

Except that it won't. You won't get any extra damage from defensive buffs, and all that Assassin has to do is camp a purge bow. They can just sit there, hit you until you're purge, then proceed to lock you down and end you. All because Tidal Protection prevents you from being able to reliably lock them down or amp them.

This doesn't even take into account genie skills and Deaden Nerves in case things go completely right for you and you can purge/amp/stunlock them THROUGH Tidal Protection.

I've beaten a roughly equal geared Assassin in 1v1s. We were both self buffed, and they were pretty good fights. He has insane damage output and that combined with Tidal Protection makes him a massive threat.

There's another Assassin, his gear is a bit worse. I can reliably destroy him in 1v1, even with the insane damage output of Assassins I can take him down easily enough thanks to my constant fights with the Assassin I mentioned earlier. ...If he's self buffed. You see, I farm him in pk, and after about 5 or 6 times of dying, once even while ganking me, he refuses to take me on with self buffs only. Thanks to buffs I have no chance to kill him because Tidal negates my ability to purge, and when I do finally manage to land it he simply rebuffs. It's a waste of chi and effort to even attempt to purge.

When one skill alone gives you the ability to survive against someone who can normally bring you down without you having to do anything but have buffs, there's something wrong. It isn't about whether or not you can tank an Assassin out, which most people just can't anyway. It's the fact that no matter how skilled you are in comparison to the Assassin you're fighting, they have every advantage in the world against you. Which is complete and utter garbage.


Anyone thinking otherwise needs to go back to pre-school.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

You guys are silly. The problem is clearly the buff pill, not tidal protection. Just read the arguments, nearly all of them refer to the buff pill in some way.

Quilue - Sanctuary

You're not supposed to fight fully buffed in 1v1 anyway because that's just going through the motions until you purge.

Kniraven - Lost City

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You guys are silly. The problem is clearly the buff pill, not tidal protection. Just read the arguments, nearly all of them refer to the buff pill in some way.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're not supposed to fight fully buffed in 1v1 anyway because that's just going through the motions until you purge.

That's cute guys,
but some of us don't have the option to choose when/where we fight, and what gear level our opponents are at or whether or not they have buffs. Some of us have been white or red name since level 30 and because of such we compare classes from a realistic stand point of whether or not this and/or that is possible.

Sure, in a world where I can set conditions on what my opponents are "allowed" to do despite what they are capable of doing we can hypothesize all sorts of scenarios.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

That's cute too. If it's 1v1 you do it self buffed. Otherwise refuse the 1v1 and gank them; it's fair game.

If you don't have anyone that can back you up, that's a different story.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That's cute too. If it's 1v1 you do it self buffed. Otherwise refuse the 1v1 and gank them; it's fair game.

If you don't have anyone that can back you up, that's a different story.

Sure. Then we can just sit there like idiots as they stealth away back to safe zone

peckked

I wonder... since we have weird arbitrary rules for 1vs1 like only being self buffed ever!!!! or never using pots/genies in duels, maybe we can come up with others like only barbs with helms ini edits can be str build, or you can only use skills that cost less than 100MP. Am I the only one who thinks this is all just a little silly? If you can agree on ground rules then fine. But to insist upon those same rules with the next person? And worse, to insult them because they play by the rules set out by the game, and not arbitrary ones one person wants... Personally, whenever I avoid the use of my genie in a duel I feel like I've lost some skill. It's as if I'm actively training myself to not do something that makes perfect sense to do.

I can play chess with someone and agree not to use our queens, but I can hardly expect the next person to agree to it. It also fundamentally changes the game, rendering any outcome meaningless. Without the use of my queen it really isn't chess anymore. Does this not apply to these arbitrary rules in PW?

Zanryu - Lothranis

peckked wrote: »

I wonder... since we have weird arbitrary rules for 1vs1 like only being self buffed ever!!!! or never using pots/genies in duels, maybe we can come up with others like only barbs with helms ini edits can be str build, or you can only use skills that cost less than 100MP. Am I the only one who thinks this is all just a little silly? If you can agree on ground rules then fine. But to insist upon those same rules with the next person? And worse, to insult them because they play by the rules set out by the game, and not arbitrary ones one person wants... Personally, whenever I avoid the use of my genie in a duel I feel like I've lost some skill. It's as if I'm actively training myself to not do something that makes perfect sense to do.

I can play chess with someone and agree not to use our queens, but I can hardly expect the next person to agree to it. It also fundamentally changes the game, rendering any outcome meaningless. Without the use of my queen it really isn't chess anymore. Does this not apply to these arbitrary rules in PW?

The reason for the unwritten rule of self buffed 1v1s is because with buffs it becomes too hard for any one class to kill any other class. It then becomes a game of "Who can purge first?" because once that happens the person who purged their opponent has a massive advantage and becomes extremely likely to win just because they have buffs and the other person doesn't. 1v1s should be about your own strength, not the strength of your buffs.

There's never been any rule about not going all out in duels, whoever you heard that from or whoever you saw trying to enforce such a thing are complete idiots.

Your chess analogy holds no ground here. The queen is an essential part of Chess, while having full buffs is not an essential part of 1v1s. Self buffed 1v1s are like both players adding a piece to the board that gives your king full immunity. In order to win that piece must be taken out, only Assassins have a special one that can't be removed from the game 66% of the time while yours can be taken out at their leisure.

Joe - Morai

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

The reason for the unwritten rule of self buffed 1v1s is because with buffs it becomes too hard for any one class to kill any other class. It then becomes a game of "Who can purge first?" because once that happens the person who purged their opponent has a massive advantage and becomes extremely likely to win just because they have buffs and the other person doesn't. 1v1s should be about your own strength, not the strength of your buffs.

There's never been any rule about not going all out in duels, whoever you heard that from or whoever you saw trying to enforce such a thing are complete idiots.

Your chess analogy holds no ground here. The queen is an essential part of Chess, while having full buffs is not an essential part of 1v1s. Self buffed 1v1s are like both players adding a piece to the board that gives your king full immunity. In order to win that piece must be taken out, only Assassins have a special one that can't be removed from the game 66% of the time while yours can be taken out at their leisure.

+1b

Couldn't agree more. Thanks Zan.

XXHotXx - Morai

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

The reason for the unwritten rule of self buffed 1v1s is because with buffs it becomes too hard for any one class to kill any other class. It then becomes a game of "Who can purge first?" because once that happens the person who purged their opponent has a massive advantage and becomes extremely likely to win just because they have buffs and the other person doesn't. 1v1s should be about your own strength, not the strength of your buffs.

There's never been any rule about not going all out in duels, whoever you heard that from or whoever you saw trying to enforce such a thing are complete idiots.

Your chess analogy holds no ground here. The queen is an essential part of Chess, while having full buffs is not an essential part of 1v1s. Self buffed 1v1s are like both players adding a piece to the board that gives your king full immunity. In order to win that piece must be taken out, only Assassins have a special one that can't be removed from the game 66% of the time while yours can be taken out at their leisure.

^this

full buffed 1on1s are ****
assassins requesting 1on1s on full buffs are even more **** cause of the infinite advantage they would have against the opponent, therefore +1 refuse 1on1 and gank them

also i am heavily against the use of stealth in 1on1s, pro assassins dont stealth in 1on1 and win anyways, weak\lame ones stealth all the time tidal is down

Zanryu - Lothranis

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

^this

full buffed 1on1s are ****
assassins requesting 1on1s on full buffs are even more **** cause of the infinite advantage they would have against the opponent, therefore +1 refuse 1on1 and gank them

also i am heavily against the use of stealth in 1on1s, pro assassins dont stealth in 1on1 and win anyways, weak\lame ones stealth all the time tidal is down

Well, that and kite to Africa. b:avoid

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Sure. Then we can just sit there like idiots as they stealth away back to safe zone

Detection Pots.

XXHotXx - Morai

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Well, that and kite to Africa. b:avoid

well yea most likely its stealth + kite

@ Detection pots, they have a pretty long delay, before you get the detection buff, the sin will have enough time to kite to Narnia
and they have a long cooldown aswell

Zanryu - Lothranis

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Detection Pots.

They take a few seconds to actually work, plenty of time for them to gain some distance. It also doesn't prevent them from being un-targeted by going into stealth, which can cost you some time.

Even if you get the detection pot off, in most cases a good Assassin only needs that two or so seconds for a cooldown so they can start their assault again.

Kniraven - Lost City

....
I was never talking about "1 on 1s" I was talking about being literally anywhere on the map on my server and being attacked by anyone at any time in any amount of numbers.

Whether it is 1 person attacking me,
2 people attacking me,
1 person attacking me + a friend,
etc.

The facts remain: everyone can use buffs, everyone can use buff pills, everyone can use genies, everyone can use pots. Some people have charms, some people don't. Some people are more prepared than others with pvp pots, defense charms, attack charms, etc.

Assuming that each class is as prepared as possible,
Assassins have the EXTREME advantage in every scenario.

66% chance to evade purge, stun, debuffs while being full buffed.
As several of you have both stated and agreed, it is incredibly difficult for people to kill each other when full buffed. If any class can do it though, sins certainly can. Even if not, they can use a purge bow.

In the unlikely event you do manage to stun an opposing sin, it is unlikely you will also be so lucky as to get an amp at the same time.

In the unlikely event you do manage to amp an opposing sin, it is unlikely you will also be able to hold them in place to take advantage of it.

In the unlikely even you do manage to purge a sin through Sage Tidal (33% chance), with your Purge weapon (8-12% chance of proc or lengthy cd), through their 900+ dex worth of evasion, they can just pop another buff pill

In the extremely unlikely event you do manage to get in 2 successful purges, or a stun + amp, they still have their genie, deaden nerves, and stealth to help wait for cd's.

---

Throughout all this they are dishing out the best DPS, and some of the best DPH, in the game and sh/tting out chi like there is no tomorrow.

---

Its nice that you want to have rules and regulations.
Its nifty that you have the option to go blue name, avoid combat, or refuse fights.
"PvP servers" do not have that though, and we see daily what classes are actually capable of no holds barred.

Proski - Archosaur

is this how you felt when thinking of the title for this thread

http://th08.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2011/288/7/7/oh__stop_it__you__by_rober_raik-d4cwd9f.png

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

That's cute. Who decided that, and what does that mean? You think sins should be able to beat everyone 1v1? lol.

It seems to be the common consensus sins are a 1v1 class around here, or do I need to dig up all the fact related ifo on this analogy to prove my point. I could probably dig up a quote where even you have said sins are a 1v1 class, a duelist.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Sins beat higher geared players because higher geared players of other classes are stupid? BUT, the sins themselves are ALSO stupid?

I was refering to the higher geared player. How is it that my +7 r9rr was able to consistantly kill a r9rr+10-+12 psy? I know more about fighting psy's than this person does sins, and it could also be that this person is not a good psy, who knows. A lot of people don't understand the sin class as much as they think they do, and this has been shown countless times on the forums. I fight endgame psy's on a regular basis, but there are no endgame sins on my server (that we know of that still play). They say sins are so OP, even without these skills, without realizing that the problem is not the sin, it is their knowledge. They lack knowledge of what the class can do, so they will lose consistantly. For me atm, I have the hardest time against clerics. Even with Tidal, you can't dodge every status thrown at you.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Yeah, they are called buff pots. They are pretty nifty for sins too because sins can dodge purge 66% the time.

Except when they don't....Seriously? If you purged the sin within 2 mins, they wasted apo cd pretty much. Buff pots werent even a factor in my argument. If you wanna derail to prove a point that didn't even need to be made, fine. But it's extremely dishonest. They can be easily dispacted as they were put on, and considering tidal only has a 60 sec duration and 90 sec cd, you have 30 secs to purge those buffs. Even with a purge bow, that is PLENTY of time.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Yeah, you can dodge 66% of all stuns, amps, immobilizes, purges, you name it. Most of them cost a lot of chi so people end up just blowing half their total chi on you for no reason whatsoever with the use of a single skill. Should they actually manage to be successful that 1/3 the time you can:
A.) Kite if they Amp you
B.) Tank if they stun you and your gear is similar
C.) On the occasion you're outgeared or unbuffed, and/or your enemy managed to both immobilize AND amp you, you can faith/domain OR survive off deaden. What do you do while they are in cooldown for 1 minute? Stealth, Kite, etc.

Yes, sins are tankier.
They have 66% to dodge purge, 66% chance to dodge amps/immobilize, and deaden nerves to boot. Additionally, end game sins have over 900 dex which makes hitting them stupidly hard for 3 out of 10 classes.

So do endgame archers, that have 2-2.5x a sins physical attack... And hit that hard 100% of the time, not relying on zerk to proc. Considering i need to blow about 10 SPARKS to kill a similarly geared seeker, while to kill another sin i barely even need 2...This seems to be nothing but a Tidal QQ post.

Zanryu - Lothranis

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It seems to be the common consensus sins are a 1v1 class around here, or do I need to dig up all the fact related ifo on this analogy to prove my point. I could probably dig up a quote where even you have said sins are a 1v1 class, a duelist.

Yeah. 1v1 class. Yet they're also insanely good in group PvP.


I was refering to the higher geared player. How is it that my +7 r9rr was able to consistantly kill a r9rr+10-+12 psy? I know more about fighting psy's than this person does sins, and it could also be that this person is not a good psy, who knows. A lot of people don't understand the sin class as much as they think they do, and this has been shown countless times on the forums. I fight endgame psy's on a regular basis, but there are no endgame sins on my server (that we know of that still play). They say sins are so OP, even without these skills, without realizing that the problem is not the sin, it is their knowledge. They lack knowledge of what the class can do, so they will lose consistantly. For me atm, I have the hardest time against clerics. Even with Tidal, you can't dodge every status thrown at you.

If YOU can farm an end game Psy, they're not end game. A true end game Psychic would two shot someone with your gear at worst.

It's true that when someone doesn't know how classes work they're at a disadvantage, but there are people on the forum who DO know how they work, and they can agree that Assassins are broken. That says something.



Except when they don't....Seriously? If you purged the sin within 2 mins, they wasted apo cd pretty much. Buff pots werent even a factor in my argument. If you wanna derail to prove a point that didn't even need to be made, fine. But it's extremely dishonest. They can be easily dispacted as they were put on, and considering tidal only has a 60 sec duration and 90 sec cd, you have 30 secs to purge those buffs. Even with a purge bow, that is PLENTY of time.

That's the problem. Because of Tidal Protection it's nearly impossible to purge them in that two minutes, and if they're buffed before the fight starts that means you have to purge them TWICE. Using a purge weapon just doesn't work because you can't actually lock the Assassin down, they can lock you down and prevent you from attacking while you're trying to purge. Why can't you lock them down? Because of Tidal. It's what allows them to prevent being counter locked and make your already abysmal chances of purging even worse.

So do endgame archers, that have 2-2.5x a sins physical attack... And hit that hard 100% of the time, not relying on zerk to proc. Considering i need to blow about 10 SPARKS to kill a similarly geared seeker, while to kill another sin i barely even need 2...This seems to be nothing but a Tidal QQ post.

You know what the key difference is? They don't have Tidal.

"Tidal QQ post"

Fishy seems mad.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

"Tidal QQ post"

Fishy seems mad.

You should just ignore him, things he have said could fill a joke book. I do remember how he, despite being argued to, refused to lvl his headhunt to lvl 10 as it was waste according to him. Comments like "most ppl dont clearly know how sins work on these forums" from him get a whole different meaning as he might be the most ignorant of em all.

He also likes to use fallacies of the like "sin is 1 vs 1 class" and completely ignore the reality how sins faceroll most every class unless they are absolutely terrible. Such callibre of advantage isnt defended in such statement. I do consider the whole argument semantics in the first place but meh.

Arguing how he beats ppl severely more geared than him as a point of how ignorant others are is quite amusing. More likely reason is how sin is just that much more powerful. Double spark + elimination from stealth, most psys in BV drop like a stone. Least thats what I imagine happened, psy didnt get to fight back in the first place.

HESOKA - Raging Tide

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

i dont know if you realized yet the gap in damage output between assassins and all the others classes, i get 5 digits on full buffs from assassins that i outgear

i think bm can stand a chance vs sins, but not even barbs imo, CCs+dps and the barb is gone eventho i witnessed a case of full josd barb with 120 def lvl 60k p res 400 spirit getting 53k from an assassin in 1on1 situation ( fiftythree kay man )
this kind of damage on this kind of defenses induces you to think sin is hacking xD

eventho there was a double damage **** for few server versions ago (not sure about the mechanic of the ****\bug exploit) wondering if there is something like that around still xD

I've heard of those barbs, am pretty sure they get easily ranged DD'ed, Tackling slash lasts 11 seconds by the assassin and the sin just keeps spamming lifehunter/elimination, sleep when its about to end, tackling slash and repeat, very simple.

Now Assume the two class's go at each other no CC or ranged DD, you'd easily notice that the barb can out damage the assassin by a FarCry, which suggests that as long as the barb utilizes a well genie: With remove immobilize, and prevent himself from being remobilized again, IE: immune to movement debuffs when necessary, they can avoid the ranged DD and put the assassin in defence mode the whole time.

I've have faced barbs, in all honestly, if they make tackling slash seem as an 11 second stun
than obviously not much can be argued about here, the barb will just get completely demolished.

you might as well realize that the only way an assassin can effectively lock a target is with: Immobilize, headhunt,

Telestun is only 3 seconds long
Elimination is only about 2.5 seconds long

neither is long enough to put the barb at any risk, hence:

The barb can literally hold W,A,S,D and walk around till tidal is gone, remove immobilize as soon as the assassin casts it, any attempt at any stuns would make them very ineffective, IE stunning a barb on tiger form Full HP is just a big waste.

Just Fined Tactics, Skill is defiantly involved,but as you are a wizard i don't think any skill you acquire will get you a kill vs a sin at equal skill, your only chance is a 1v1 with a sin thats unfamiliar with wizard skills, or tactics,

But evan so, a wizard still has some gap of a chance killing an assassin, Ie with a respectful amour of puffy prcoks, but a wizard, CANOT, and WILL NEVER, kill any BM / CLERIC at equal gear.

If you ask me, I'd rather face a class that i can hardly survive to kill, than face a class they i can't kill but can survive longer against.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

You should just ignore him, things he have said could fill a joke book. I do remember how he, despite being argued to, refused to lvl his headhunt to lvl 10 as it was waste according to him. Comments like "most ppl dont clearly know how sins work on these forums" from him get a whole different meaning as he might be the most ignorant of em all.

He also likes to use fallacies of the like "sin is 1 vs 1 class" and completely ignore the reality how sins faceroll most every class unless they are absolutely terrible. Such callibre of advantage isnt defended in such statement. I do consider the whole argument semantics in the first place but meh.

Arguing how he beats ppl severely more geared than him as a point of how ignorant others are is quite amusing. More likely reason is how sin is just that much more powerful. Double spark + elimination from stealth, most psys in BV drop like a stone. Least thats what I imagine happened, psy didnt get to fight back in the first place.

You speak from the side of your neck mate. Lets get a few things clear.

1. I don't have elimination.

2. It's a logical fallacy to call a class a 1v1 class, and not expect them to roll people in 1v1's. If you don't know how my fights are, the least you can do is shut up and learn a thing or two. You talk about fallacies yet your very statements are riddled with them. The hypocrisy is sickening.

3. If I am ignorant, you are equally as ignorant. You refuse to refute my argument and instead come with these adhominem attacks on my character.

4. The situation with level 10 headhunt was over a year and a half ago. You still butt hurt about it? Seems like someone is digging up a past that is irrelevent to now. People learn, and people change. Even you are not coy enough to deny that. Even then I did not state I know all, but just my honest opinion based on my experience, and my circumstances. Yet you bring up one comment I made almost 2 years ago now, in every single post you respond to of mine. Why is that?

I don't care what you think of me, but the disrespect you show is very immature of you. I have nothing else to say to you until you learn a little more about reality and that change is a part of it. Good day.

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

"Tidal QQ post"

Fishy seems mad.

I thought it was amusing in fact. I don't care about 99.9% of the opinions on this forum as they hold no affect on me in game, or in real life. Mad? Not in the slightest.

XXHotXx - Morai

HESOKA - Raging Tide wrote: »

I've heard of those barbs, am pretty sure they get easily ranged DD'ed, Tackling slash lasts 11 seconds by the assassin and the sin just keeps spamming lifehunter/elimination, sleep when its about to end, tackling slash and repeat, very simple.

Now Assume the two class's go at each other no CC or ranged DD, you'd easily notice that the barb can out damage the assassin by a FarCry, which suggests that as long as the barb utilizes a well genie: With remove immobilize, and prevent himself from being remobilized again, IE: immune to movement debuffs when necessary, they can avoid the ranged DD and put the assassin in defence mode the whole time.

I've have faced barbs, in all honestly, if they make tackling slash seem as an 11 second stun
than obviously not much can be argued about here, the barb will just get completely demolished.

you might as well realize that the only way an assassin can effectively lock a target is with: Immobilize, headhunt,

Telestun is only 3 seconds long
Elimination is only about 2.5 seconds long

neither is long enough to put the barb at any risk, hence:

The barb can literally hold W,A,S,D and walk around till tidal is gone, remove immobilize as soon as the assassin casts it, any attempt at any stuns would make them very ineffective, IE stunning a barb on tiger form Full HP is just a big waste.

Just Fined Tactics, Skill is defiantly involved,but as you are a wizard i don't think any skill you acquire will get you a kill vs a sin at equal skill, your only chance is a 1v1 with a sin thats unfamiliar with wizard skills, or tactics,

But evan so, a wizard still has some gap of a chance killing an assassin, Ie with a respectful amour of puffy prcoks, but a wizard, CANOT, and WILL NEVER, kill any BM / CLERIC at equal gear.

If you ask me, I'd rather face a class that i can hardly survive to kill, than face a class they i can't kill but can survive longer against.

if the sin is on self buffs, and if the wizard outgears the sin, in mass pvp with AA, yes

if sin is buffed, same gears and 1on1 no chance wiz can get out sin CC+DPS burst

+1 we cant kill bms and clerics @ same gears, and thats simply because our debuff got hypernerfed by primal defense passives, and anything that has a magres selfbuff (marrow, cleric buffs) gets negligible undinespark debuffs

@barbs, yea clever barbs can afktank assassins, but clever assassins can wood pot+condensed thorn and rip into any barb