Sins just stop it

Joe - Morai

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

Not that hard to test yourself.... Let's say it this way... Making a 20min endgame char?

Would be interesting to see some of those test recorded though to clear some points made here.

I've just tested sin vs. ea as it's my main concern as an ea player... and it's plain sad xD But anyway, as we all know ea's are way too squishy nowadays without having any real hitting skill, turning us into purge-bishes (Def. buffs pot, TY FOR **** US!)

We can hit after heavy debuffing targets with range, that's not bad somehow even if you rely on team-mates, but I kinda like this part

Is it that bad for an archer to be a group related support act? that's a good job if you ask me.

Meh, def buff pots are for lamers. I useally don't rebuff myself when fighting archers xDD will get purged right away anyways so...cept BloodBath. You gotta have some neat accu against archers.

Do me a favour. Don'T say sins are OP because they can **** Archers. Any class can...Archers are at the end of the line these days and that's not the sins fault. Still. An amazing class. I love playing them. But loving to play one class and realizing that they suck under certain circumstances are 2 things that can go along very well. You need to know your strenghts and focus on them or try really hard and own anyone via skill.

If you'd like to try something. One thing worked for me as an Archer against fail sins (still endgame).

Demon Archer. shadow binder powder -> triple spark -> autoattack, when he draws near -> jump -> autoattack, when he draws near -> jump. rinse and repeat. If your purge gets through then just stun and finish off. Works perfectly against Barbs, seeker and BMs too. you could add bloodvow on them tho.

if the sin doesn't pop an IG he is dead. promise. if he does then use awaken and repeat til your enemy drops. Just never stand still for too and always be immune to movement ailments.

Sounds redicolous but...works so many times it's not even funny. That's why I tend to demon after NH. Debuffs arn't that much of a deal anymore especially not against sins.

that's what I mean when I say rely on your strenghts.

Those 80k triple sparked an archer can get combined with ~77% crit hurts like hell. any class. If <our enemies immune themselves just outspark them. Awaken ftw. Chi siphon is amazing too from time to time although that leaves you wide open.

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

1v1 unbuffed is though stupidly silly, considering we have def. buff pots. No realistic situation can lead to 1v1 unbuffed fights.

Because it's fair. What shall a barb say to a psy for example. Aww sry. there is no way on this earth that you can kill me through my 80k HP and 43k mdef while I can just wait for the purge and wipe you out? Where is the sense behind that ****? Same goes for any class that can't purge.

Buffed and selfbuffed and purged make a huge difference. Far beyond anything like a zerk crit could compensate for.

I fight self buffed because it's the closest thing to equal and balanced PvP we can have in this game. Most ppl deny that because they don't know how to defend themselves and die like flies self buffed. that's their own problem. not mine. If one can only play offensively then that one can't play at all.

What's the use in having artificial advantages over other classes? I don't understand that. Why do you guys always need an advantage. things get interesting when YOU are at a disadvantage yourself. At least thats true for me cause that would pose a challenge.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

If Joes EA tactics work he must run into some sins with serious issues which have to reflect all over their rl too. Any half decent normal person is not going to fall for that in a situation where you dont surprise them by sparking out sight/etc. Seriously, if you are going to tank ppl triplesparking on you, raise your hand.

Healer_Star_ - Archosaur

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

This comment gave me:

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havent checked this forum in forever but seriously XD why so mean to me

Joe - Morai

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

If Joes EA tactics work he must run into some sins with serious issues which have to reflect all over their rl too. Any half decent normal person is not going to fall for that in a situation where you dont surprise them by sparking out sight/etc. Seriously, if you are going to tank ppl triplesparking on you, raise your hand.

It works. especially against those sins that think they are OP and unbeatable. Besides what will you do cept running away in a situation like this as a sin? Anti-Stealth pot should be in use meanwhile (on the archer side ofc). Throatcut would be the only means to shortly shut the archer up. If he then uses Faith then the sin is done for cept if he manages to run into sz. Simply blast sins away with overwhelming dmg. They are squshy by default and that is still their biggest weakspot.

IJS, ppl should exploit that weakspot more often.

You should be aware that...if the purge just hits once then the sin is screwed when he can't stealth away. Everything gone, anything in CD...even a triple spark could get purged easily afterwards.

Besides that's the only strategy that will work against sins as an archer anyway. You can't tank the dmg and you can't outrun the sin forever. You basically only have the very aggresive possibility.

But that's just from my experience as an Archer. If you know a better one then please let me know.

Healer_Star_ - Archosaur wrote: »

havent checked this forum in forever but seriously XD why so mean to me

Don't be sad. He practically stated that he got any genital desease possible which would make him a multi-genital hermaphrodite. Trust me. He deserves our pitty way more then you do if thats the case xDDDDDDD

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Thing with sins on archer is, killing one w/o gear or massive skill gap is not gonna happen. Best you can do is kite and gank them pretty much, they are way too beefy buffed and have too high damage potential to ignore, which results in very few chances to kill them. If you can sorta tank the sin, WoG, condor and whatnot arent bad. Melee skills are nice too mixed with metal though most sins use mag def charms making melee "appealing" option. The problem really lies in your inability to attack sins as you have to kite the ludicrous damage potential sins got and as we all know, sins are just pain to kite or lock down in any way. Even if you land stun on sin, the short stun duration doesnt really give you window to do much.

Triplespark strategy can be countered easily by kiting when archer sparks after which sins arent going to be caught in 12s window you have left on binder. Assuming sin is remotely competent. Using binder after triplespark would be worse strategy as timing stun between spark immunity and instacasts is way too easy. Strategy you are suggesting doesnt rely on archers strengths but on incompetent sins, which isnt exactly a selling point for it.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Are you freaking kidding me...sin vs archer = attack speed decrease --> you can't do ****.

The up-time is like 100%

(same reason why veno should never lose to archer 1v1 post-Primal)

Good ****ing luck trying to nuke an endgame sin down with metal, with specially high channel times on 2 of the 3 options, you will be dead before you finish channeling. Archer metal attacks don't really deal a lot of damage, when you can finish sins off with Gushes and Cyclones let me know, because that's about how much damage archer metal attacks do.

Archer 1v1 is really pretty toast against anything.

About "diminishing returns" from attack levels... I wish people can figure out what diminishing returns actually mean before throwing that term out.

Attack level over opponent defense level will raise your BASE by a percent.

Say I can throw 10 apples at once...and one apple level increases the number of apples thrown at once by 10%. So if I get 1 apple level, how many apples can I throw at once? 11 right?

So if I get 2 apple levels, how many apples can I throw at once?

Now, is 12 apples 20% more apples than 10 apples, or is 12 apples 20% more apples than 11 apples?

10 apple levels mean you throw 20 mother****ing apples. Is this a 100% increase in apples thrown at once, or a ~5% increase in apples thrown? Does it make sense to compare number of apples thrown with 19 apple levels vs number of apples thrown with 20 apple levels and saying "OMG I'M NO LONGER GETTING 10% MORE APPLES?"

Why do people go Deity stones...why do sins bother to CoD...because diminishing returns amirite.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

"

Why do people go Deity stones...why do sins bother to CoD...because diminishing returns amirite.

DPH sins dont lose anything but attack speed with chill Up >.>, an increase is an increase.

opkossy

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

DPH sins dont lose anything but attack speed with chill Up >.>, an increase is an increase.

And your excuse for deity? After all, that makes you lose survival... for "Diminishing returns". It's the point Q's trying to make about how people here are calling things "diminishing returns" without understanding what that actually means.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

OPKossy wrote: »

And your excuse for deity? After all, that makes you lose survival... for "Diminishing returns". It's the point Q's trying to make about how people here are calling things "diminishing returns" without understanding what that actually means.

Q should ready this thread before going on the MUH 1 APPLE MORE IS ALWAYS 1% INCREASE rage.

XXHotXx - Morai

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Q should ready this thread before going on the MUH 1 APPLE MORE IS ALWAYS 1% INCREASE rage.

lawl that thread just proves what Q say

the only diminishing returns are when you have more defense levels than enemy attack levels,

in that case you wont have a 1% damage reduction for each defense level you have over enemy attack levels, but you will have just more or less a 0,8%, proportionally reducing to higher the gap in defense levels you got

1 attack level over enemy defense levels will always be 1% more damage you will deal

what could be seen as a diminishing return from full deity is that ofc you willl be theorically easier to kill having no defense levels

but for a full josd non sin class, killing an unsharded +12 sin on full buffs and tidal is already hard enough,

wonder how freaking crazy it is when said sin has 220 atk levels and can 123 you down

what is even crazier is that having 1000 spirit or higher over your target would mean a theorical 100% damage reduction (damage immunity?)

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

lawl that thread just proves what Q say

the only diminishing returns are when you have more defense levels than enemy attack levels,

in that case you wont have a 1% damage reduction for each defense level you have over enemy attack levels, but you will have just more or less a 0,8%, proportionally reducing to higher the gap in defense levels you got

1 attack level over enemy defense levels will always be 1% more damage you will deal

what could be seen as a diminishing return from full deity is that ofc you willl be theorically easier to kill having no defense levels

but for a full josd non sin class, killing an unsharded +12 sin on full buffs and tidal is already hard enough,

wonder how freaking crazy it is when said sin has 220 atk levels and can 123 you down

what is even crazier is that having 1000 spirit or higher over your target would mean a theorical 100% damage reduction (damage immunity?)

No, it just makes you double as strong as your target. you deal double dmg on him and take only half the dmg from him. Alrdy tested this quite intensely xDD since the mechanix is the same on...you know where...its pretty reliable I guess.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

OPKossy wrote: »

And your excuse for deity? After all, that makes you lose survival... for "Diminishing returns". It's the point Q's trying to make about how people here are calling things "diminishing returns" without understanding what that actually means.

Diminishing returns refers to a lesser increase when you repeat the same process over and over.

Such as adding a deities to your gear. Each deity adds less damage than the one before.

Is that what you mean?

As for the loss of survival, we consider that a trade off to deities. Lose survival, and gain offense. But I think its wrong to say survival in this case, because killing things quickly can in fact add to your survivability.

As for Hot, I think he's misrepresenting the issue completely. Damage is reduced defense, then by jades, then the attack levels is applied to your damage remainder. Meaning if you are taking a lot of damage from someone with only a lot of atk levels, you were taking decent even if they didnt have the atk levels.

XXHotXx - Morai

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Diminishing returns refers to a lesser increase when you repeat the same process over and over.

Such as adding a deities to your gear. Each deity adds less damage than the one before.

Is that what you mean?

As for the loss of survival, we consider that a trade off to deities. Lose survival, and gain offense. But I think its wrong to say survival in this case, because killing things quickly can in fact add to your survivability.

As for Hot, I think he's misrepresenting the issue completely. Damage is reduced defense, then by jades, then the attack levels is applied to your damage remainder. Meaning if you are taking a lot of damage from someone with only a lot of atk levels, you were taking decent even if they didnt have the atk levels.

i think you are misrepresenting the issue here...

this is the attack levels > defense levels formula in common endgame pvp scenario (r9r3+)

damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( attack level - defense level ) / 100 )

if you have 120 atk lvls and enemy has 100 def levels, you have:

damage taken = damage * 1 + (120-100)/100 = damage * 1,20


if then you have 220 atk lvls and enemy has 100 def levels, you have:

damage taken = damage * 1 + (220-100)/100 = damage * 2,20


where are the diminishing returns lawl? the formula is pretty clear

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

i think you are misrepresenting the issue here...

this is the attack levels > defense levels formula in common endgame pvp scenario (r9r3+)

damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( attack level - defense level ) / 100 )

if you have 120 atk lvls and enemy has 100 def levels, you have:

damage taken = damage * 1 + (120-100)/100 = damage * 1,20


if then you have 220 atk lvls and enemy has 100 def levels, you have:

damage taken = damage * 1 + (220-100)/100 = damage * 2,20


where are the diminishing returns lawl? the formula is pretty clear

0,01 / 1,20 > 0,01 / 2,20. One could crunch the numbers but I believe its fairly irrelevant to the point.

XXHotXx - Morai

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

0,01 / 1,20 > 0,01 / 2,20. One could crunch the numbers but I believe its fairly irrelevant to the point.

sorry i did not understand

is it a way to say josd delivers more damage than deity? xD

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

sorry i did not understand

is it a way to say josd delivers more damage than deity? xD

Shortly put, it proves diminishing returns of gaining more attack levels.

XXHotXx - Morai

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

Shortly put, it proves diminishing returns of gaining more attack levels.

i really didnt get the logic behind that 0,01/ xD whats that? thats nowhere to be found in the damage formula...

damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( attack level - defense level ) / 100 )

the only way i could thing about having diminishing returns from attack levels would be this:


attacker atk lvls = 120,
defender def lvls= 0


damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( 120 - 0 ) / 100 ) = damage * 2,20


attacker atk lvls = 220
defender def lvls = 0

damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( 220 - 0 ) / 100 ) = damage * 3,20


when a full deity attacks someone w\o def levels,

the damage increase respect an unsharded r9r3 would be just roughly 50% more

while if the full deity would attack a full josd, the damage increase would be roughly 100% more respect if the attacker would be an unsharded r9r3

but @ current endgame even unsharded r9r3s have something like 60 def levels... so all the debate falls down...

there are no diminishing returns from attack levels at endgame.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

i really didnt get the logic behind that 0,01/ xD whats that? thats nowhere to be found in the damage formula...

damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( attack level - defense level ) / 100 )

the only way i could thing about having diminishing returns from attack levels would be this:


attacker atk lvls = 120,
defender def lvls= 0


damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( 120 - 0 ) / 100 ) = damage * 2,20


attacker atk lvls = 220
defender def lvls = 0

damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( 220 - 0 ) / 100 ) = damage * 3,20


when a full deity attacks someone w\o def levels,

the damage increase respect an unsharded r9r3 would be just roughly 50% more

while if the full deity would attack a full josd, the damage increase would be roughly 100% more respect if the attacker would be an unsharded r9r3

but @ current endgame even unsharded r9r3s have something like 60 def levels... so all the debate falls down...

there are no diminishing returns from attack levels at endgame.

I am kinda missing the words for this as I thought it would be obvious to anybody quoting the formula.

0,01 / 1,20 is the % increase in damage one attack level does if you have 119 of them over targets defense levels. And 0,01 / 2,20 is the same thing for 219 attack levels. I used numbers you provided, though I didnt bother taking my time to account for defense levels, which are irrelevant to the point itself. There are diminishing returns as long as you have more attack levels than target has defense levels, granted early attack levels over defense levels arent "nerfed" too much.

opkossy

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

Shortly put, it proves diminishing returns of gaining more attack levels.

Attack levels do not get diminishing returns. You people are calling a consistent return as a diminishing one even though that's not how it works. At all.

If you deal 100k base damage, have zero attack levels, and add 100 attack levels, you deal 200k damage now. So the 100 attack levels added 100k damage.

If you deal 100k base damage and have 8792 attack levels, you deal 8892k damage. If you add 100 attack levels to that, you deal 8992k damage. So the 100 attack levels still added 100k damage.



For it to have been a diminishing return, you'd have to get less from the same attack levels. Which is something the vast majority here doesn't seem to get because they don't math or something. Like people who misused the word literally to the point where Oxford changed the definition of the word because of stupid people misusing it so much.

An example of diminishing returns? Defense levels as long as they're above attack levels. If you take 100k damage and then get 100 defense levels, you now take 45454 damage. So 100 defense levels removed 54546 damage.

If you take 100k base damage and have 100 defense levels, then add another 100 defense levels, you'd now be taking 29411 damage. So 100 more defense levels only removed 25135 damage instead of the 54546 damage it would have reduced if it were a constant return.


Even if we switched to percents, the first 100 defense levels reduced the damage you take by 54% based on your base damage taken. Were defense levels constant (unlike attack levels), the second 100 defense levels would have provided another 54% coverage of the base damage taken. It didn't. Hence, diminishing. Contrast attack levels where no matter how many of them you have, each new one will always add 1% of your, and I emphasize this part because people who argue attack levels are a diminishing return do not get this, BASE DAMAGE. Not your total damage. Not the damage after considering other factors. The BASE damage.

Want an out of game example? You get 500 cookies a day. On day 2, you have 500 cookies from day one and get 500 cookies. You now have 1000 cookies. On day 200, you have 99500 from days 1-199. You still get 500 cookies and are now at 100000 cookies. You may have way more cookies now than you had at day 1... but that doesn't change that you're still getting a constant 500 cookies daily. It hasn't changed, so it's not a diminishing return.

Quilue - Sanctuary

This thread is ****ing gold. I'll just leave this here.

[8/23/2014 10:16:57 AM] Qui: wat do u think about this
[8/23/2014 10:17:01 AM] Ast: hmm
[8/23/2014 10:17:01 AM] Qui: CoD 30% more damage? Hello diminishing returns?
[8/23/2014 10:17:07 AM] Qui: quote unquote
[8/23/2014 10:17:12 AM] Ast: who
[8/23/2014 10:17:15 AM] Qui: some ******
[8/23/2014 10:17:19 AM] Qui: on forams
[8/23/2014 10:17:20 AM] Ast: d***d*****?
[8/23/2014 10:17:22 AM] Qui: nah
[8/23/2014 10:17:31 AM] Ast: its 40% more
[8/23/2014 10:17:36 AM] Ast: with primal chill
[8/23/2014 10:17:39 AM] Qui: isn't that so stupid
[8/23/2014 10:17:46 AM] Qui: apparently atk levels get diminishing returns
[8/23/2014 10:17:48 AM] Qui: wat a bum
[8/23/2014 10:17:58 AM] Ast: mmm
[8/23/2014 10:18:04 AM] Ast: more like constant returns



Ast: d***d*****?




Names edited so we don't get morons ******** to us on Skype.

opkossy

Lol Q.

There's a reason I stopped bothering with the name you edited from your other post here a while back. b:chuckle

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

This thread is ****ing gold. I'll just leave this here.

[8/23/2014 10:16:57 AM] Qui: wat do u think about this
[8/23/2014 10:17:01 AM] Ast: hmm
[8/23/2014 10:17:01 AM] Qui: CoD 30% more damage? Hello diminishing returns?
[8/23/2014 10:17:07 AM] Qui: quote unquote
[8/23/2014 10:17:12 AM] Ast: who
[8/23/2014 10:17:15 AM] Qui: some ******
[8/23/2014 10:17:19 AM] Qui: on forams
[8/23/2014 10:17:20 AM] Ast: d***d*****?
[8/23/2014 10:17:22 AM] Qui: nah
[8/23/2014 10:17:31 AM] Ast: its 40% more
[8/23/2014 10:17:36 AM] Ast: with primal chill
[8/23/2014 10:17:39 AM] Qui: isn't that so stupid
[8/23/2014 10:17:46 AM] Qui: apparently atk levels get diminishing returns
[8/23/2014 10:17:48 AM] Qui: wat a bum
[8/23/2014 10:17:58 AM] Ast: mmm
[8/23/2014 10:18:04 AM] Ast: more like constant returns



Ast: d***d*****?




Names edited so we don't get morons ******** to us on Skype.

Ast, fix your thread in that case :-).

Attack level exactly cancels out defense level but attack level has diminishing returns while defense level has constant returns. The full sharding with DEF+1 stones isn't really more effective than Citrine gems or Vit stones for most classes unless they have high base HP. DEF+2 sharding is nice but when comparing them to Vit Gems keep in mind that Vit Gems add to both HP and defense.

Error in your writing since 2013, bravo.

And for a sidenote; funny how some posts get deleted even when names are obscured while others aren't.
But hey, let's not go there again, we know how the forums work by now.

XXHotXx - Morai

well you don't necessarly have to point out at a misspelling

just look at the damage formulas and what stated by Q or kossy becomes pretty obvious

you would see diminishing returns from attack and defense level factors only in a situation where defense levels exceed attacker attack levels,

and i should quote but i dont want to repeat what kossy said cause that's how it works,

and that's why you do not deal 0 damage to 200 def lvl seekers or psychics


(while instead i am pretty concerned about what happens if you exceed your target by 1000 spirit points)

primal CoD at endgame its free 40% more damage,
with assassin current crit rate its free 80% damage,
then you have 20% chance to zerk it for free 160%
you add lvl 10 wolf emblem and its free 210% damage

by numbers and comparison (not considering masteries):

i'm wizard, i have 50k base damage, my basic skill in pvp would deal more or less of 50k-75% = 12500 base damage (35% crit rate)

a sin has 35k base damage, his basic skill in pvp would deal 35k-75%= 8750 base damage

then you have cod= 12250
90% crit rate = 24500
lvl 10 wolf emblem = 31850

20% to zerk? = 63700


and all this amps are granted PASSIVELY

#balanced

peckked

While it isn't diminishing returns when compared to base damage, it is a case of diminishing returns when directly comparing 2 similar builds with differing attack levels in terms of damage potential. 40 Attack Levels might add 40% more damage compared to base, but base is seldom a reasonable point of comparison.

ie A sin not using CoD might have 130 Attack Levels, and with might have 170.

270/230 = 117.4% - In this situation, the sin sees an increase of 0.435% damage per additional attack level.

or

A sin using CoD might have 170 Attack Levels without Deities, and the same build fully Deity sharded would have 218.

318/270 = 117.8% - In this situation, the sin sees an increase of 0.371% damage per additional attack level.

So for this sin, sharding with full Deity would only see ~18% increase in damage vs without... Not 48%.

Consequently, statements such us these

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

primal CoD at endgame its free 40% more damage

are horribly misleading, resulting in really poor math like

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

35k-75%= 8750 base damage

then you have cod= 12250

For a more accurate comparison both classes being compared would need to have applied ALL attack levels, and not just what comes from CoD.

XXHotXx - Morai

peckked wrote: »

While it isn't diminishing returns when compared to base damage, it is a case of diminishing returns when directly comparing 2 similar builds with differing attack levels in terms of damage potential. 40 Attack Levels might add 40% more damage compared to base, but base is seldom a reasonable point of comparison.

ie A sin not using CoD might have 130 Attack Levels, and with might have 170.

270/230 = 117.4% - In this situation, the sin sees an increase of 0.435% damage per additional attack level.

or

A sin using CoD might have 170 Attack Levels without Deities, and the same build fully Deity sharded would have 218.

318/270 = 117.8% - In this situation, the sin sees an increase of 0.371% damage per additional attack level.

So for this sin, sharding with full Deity would only see ~18% increase in damage vs without... Not 48%.

Consequently, statements such us these

are horribly misleading, resulting in really poor math like


For a more accurate comparison both classes being compared would need to have applied ALL attack levels, and not just what comes from CoD.

well allright, lets consider r9r3 attack levels (120ish)

wizard = 12500 + its 120% = 27500

assassin = 8750 + its 160% = 22750 -> 90% crit = 45500 -> wolf 59150 -> zerk 118300

even more #balanced

then we can consider elimination last hit that is 120% base damage for a whole 141960, and maybe you 3sparked inner subsea it for a 50% more base damage and 50% more damage in total for 319410

and thats how i got a 27k with almost cap P.res (92%) 110 def lvls and 900 spirit

#balanceumad?

peckked

I'm not saying sins don't out DD wizzies. But it's not nearly as bad as you think.

Some serious flaws in your math.

A couple points:

- 90% crit rate. This is unrealistic. The number you're looking for is 80%. Maybe 85... You also don't apply crit to your wizzy's damage.

- It's extremely rare to see lvl 10 WE on an endgame sin. Average over time is 20% for both sage and demon. Also WE is only applicable to the % of hits that actually crit.

So let's try this again shall we applying crit damage as an average and 130 Attack levels as a base.

Wizzy -

Base damage = 50k
After PVP Reduction = 12.5k
After 130 Attack levels = 28.75k
Average with crit% (35) = 37.375k

Damage without Crit = 28.75k (Happens 65% of the time)
Damage with Crit = 57.5k (Happens 35% of the time)

Sin

Base damage = 35k
After PVP Reduction = 8.75k
After 170 Attack levels = 23.625k
Average with crit% with WE (80) = 46.305k
After GoF = 55.56k

Damage - Normal = 23.625k (16% chance)
Damage - Crit = 51.975k (64% chance)
Damage - Zerk = 47.25 (4% chance)
Damage - Zerk Crit = 103.95k (16% chance)

So what does this all mean: 35% of the time wizzy's will do ~10-145% more damage. 65% of the time sins will do ~60-260% more damage.

I might also point out that 35k is typically the peak of a sins damage while 50k is the base for a wizzy... taking averages you're more likely to see averages of ~32k and ~55k respectively.

And since you're talking about debuffs... Even with the primal upgrade a spark combo effectively nullifies both bm and ep buffs. On a class with ~85% damage reduction or more buffed that results in ~200% damage, and you can always add extreme poison as well.

Taking debuffs into account you would probably see closer to 50% of hits a wizzy out-damaging a sin. Though in terms of peak damage a sin will still have much higher maximum damage due to GoF.

Talking about elimination's last hit of 120%... Are you aware that Pyrogram does about 115% base damage when taking adds into consideration? Or that D. Pyro does ~140% (with a long casting time admittedly). Were you aware that seekers basic skills do more than 120%? They have GoF too.. and a higher base weapon damage. Similar goes for some barb and bm skills.

Finally, the last hit of elimination has the same chance as any other hit to be a zerk crit therefore you're looking at about 1 in 7 times or in terms of time once every 1min45seconds 3 of which might be accompanied by 3 spark, 1 or 2 with subsea, during which you could have gotten off 3x spark combos with enough chi for a 3spark or 2 as well.

Forgive me if I don't feel upset that you now need to find a way to defend against a specific class *looks at Soul of Fire wasting a spot on my genie*

Seriously though, I don't see why elimination can't be treated just like other high damage/effect skill/combos which so many have gotten over. Countering arma, spark combo, qpq combos, purge... this concept shouldn't be new.

Joe - Morai

peckked wrote: »

I'm not saying sins don't out DD wizzies. But it's not nearly as bad as you think.

Some serious flaws in your math.

A couple points:

- 90% crit rate. This is unrealistic. The number you're looking for is 80%. Maybe 85... You also don't apply crit to your wizzy's damage.

- It's extremely rare to see lvl 10 WE on an endgame sin. Average over time is 20% for both sage and demon. Also WE is only applicable to the % of hits that actually crit.

So let's try this again shall we applying crit damage as an average and 130 Attack levels as a base.

Wizzy -

Base damage = 50k
After PVP Reduction = 12.5k
After 130 Attack levels = 28.75k
Average with crit% (35) = 37.375k

Damage without Crit = 28.75k (Happens 65% of the time)
Damage with Crit = 57.5k (Happens 35% of the time)

Sin

Base damage = 35k
After PVP Reduction = 8.75k
After 170 Attack levels = 23.625k
Average with crit% with WE (80) = 46.305k
After GoF = 55.56k

Damage - Normal = 23.625k (16% chance)
Damage - Crit = 51.975k (64% chance)
Damage - Zerk = 47.25 (4% chance)
Damage - Zerk Crit = 103.95k (16% chance)

So what does this all mean: 35% of the time wizzy's will do ~10-145% more damage. 65% of the time sins will do ~60-260% more damage.

I might also point out that 35k is typically the peak of a sins damage while 50k is the base for a wizzy... taking averages you're more likely to see averages of ~32k and ~55k respectively.

And since you're talking about debuffs... Even with the primal upgrade a spark combo effectively nullifies both bm and ep buffs. On a class with ~85% damage reduction or more buffed that results in ~200% damage, and you can always add extreme poison as well.

Taking debuffs into account you would probably see closer to 50% of hits a wizzy out-damaging a sin. Though in terms of peak damage a sin will still have much higher maximum damage due to GoF.

Talking about elimination's last hit of 120%... Are you aware that Pyrogram does about 115% base damage when taking adds into consideration? Or that D. Pyro does ~140% (with a long casting time admittedly). Were you aware that seekers basic skills do more than 120%? They have GoF too.. and a higher base weapon damage. Similar goes for some barb and bm skills.

Finally, the last hit of elimination has the same chance as any other hit to be a zerk crit therefore you're looking at about 1 in 7 times or in terms of time once every 1min45seconds 3 of which might be accompanied by 3 spark, 1 or 2 with subsea, during which you could have gotten off 3x spark combos with enough chi for a 3spark or 2 as well.

Forgive me if I don't feel upset that you now need to find a way to defend against a specific class *looks at Soul of Fire wasting a spot on my genie*

Seriously though, I don't see why elimination can't be treated just like other high damage/effect skill/combos which so many have gotten over. Countering arma, spark combo, qpq combos, purge... this concept shouldn't be new.

^This. Very well done.

XXHotXx - Morai

peckked wrote: »

I'm not saying sins don't out DD wizzies. But it's not nearly as bad as you think.

Some serious flaws in your math.

A couple points:

- 90% crit rate. This is unrealistic. The number you're looking for is 80%. Maybe 85... You also don't apply crit to your wizzy's damage.
An endgame 3x105 sin has between 85 and 90% crit rate

- It's extremely rare to see lvl 10 WE on an endgame sin. Average over time is 20% for both sage and demon. Also WE is only applicable to the % of hits that actually crit.
Any clever sin has lvl 10 WE for 30% more Crit damage

So let's try this again shall we applying crit damage as an average and 130 Attack levels as a base.

Wizzy -

Base damage = 50k
After PVP Reduction = 12.5k
After 130 Attack levels = 28.75k
Average with crit% (35) = 37.375k

Damage without Crit = 28.75k (Happens 65% of the time)
Damage with Crit = 57.5k (Happens 35% of the time)

Sin

Base damage = 35k
After PVP Reduction = 8.75k
After 170 Attack levels = 23.625k
Average with crit% with WE (80) = 46.305k
After GoF = 55.56k

Damage - Normal = 23.625k (16% chance) more like 10-15%
Damage - Crit = 51.975k (64% chance)
Damage - Zerk = 47.25 (4% chance)
Damage - Zerk Crit = 103.95k (16% chance)

So while the wizard has 65% chance to deliver 28k, sin has 85% chance to deliver between 47k and 103k
#balanced

So what does this all mean: 35% of the time wizzy's will do ~10-145% more damage. 65% of the time sins will do ~60-260% more damage.

wait what? 35% of the times the wizard will crit for double damage while the rest 65% of the times he will deal base damage,
an assassin will deal base damage only 10-15% of the times while the rest of the 85% of the times he will be dealing double to four times base damage

I might also point out that 35k is typically the peak of a sins damage while 50k is the base for a wizzy... taking averages you're more likely to see averages of ~32k and ~55k respectively.

no it's not, my wizard with r9r3+12 and lvl80 S set has 50k peak on full buffs, while there are sins w\o my gears with 35k value

And since you're talking about debuffs... Even with the primal upgrade a spark combo effectively nullifies both bm and ep buffs. On a class with ~85% damage reduction or more buffed that results in ~200% damage, and you can always add extreme poison as well.

let's not open a useless debuff debate, especially not after lvl 10 passive and sage tidal please

Taking debuffs into account you would probably see closer to 50% of hits a wizzy out-damaging a sin. Though in terms of peak damage a sin will still have much higher maximum damage due to GoF.

and here you can see how biased is your opinion, an undinesparked sin with 40k fire res will never suffer enough damage to get a bypass, admitted your debuffs will both go past tidal, while the sin can anytime purge or mire the wizard

Talking about elimination's last hit of 120%... Are you aware that Pyrogram does about 115% base damage when taking adds into consideration? Or that D. Pyro does ~140% (with a long casting time admittedly). Were you aware that seekers basic skills do more than 120%? They have GoF too.. and a higher base weapon damage. Similar goes for some barb and bm skills.

elimination it's not just the 120% last hit, it is 320% and adds 900% weapon damage aswell, also wizard weapon has the lowest weapon damage among Arcane Classes, do you actually realize how dangerious it is a base damage multiplier like that combined with a 3spark and granted crits + 40% passive amp + 30% passive amp + chance of 4 times the damage?

Finally, the last hit of elimination has the same chance as any other hit to be a zerk crit therefore you're looking at about 1 in 7 times or in terms of time once every 1min45seconds 3 of which might be accompanied by 3 spark, 1 or 2 with subsea, during which you could have gotten off 3x spark combos with enough chi for a 3spark or 2 as well.

again we talking about spark comboing on sage tidal and lvl 10 passives?

Forgive me if I don't feel upset that you now need to find a way to defend against a specific class *looks at Soul of Fire wasting a spot on my genie*

spark has a thousand counters, assassin passive amps and tidal dont have any counters

Seriously though, I don't see why elimination can't be treated just like other high damage/effect skill/combos which so many have gotten over. Countering arma, spark combo, qpq combos, purge... this concept shouldn't be new.

cause to deploy elimination damage (320% base) a wizard has to 3spark blade tempest for 5 spark cost and minutes of cooldown on skills and apothecary? w\o considering the chann+cast times that are a huge giveaway
and elimination is pretty much spammable respect any other combo you listed over here

Im pretty sure you are a sin player, or you just rerolled assassin... way too biased

Quilue - Sanctuary

Elimination cannot be treated like most combos because it has almost no cost...What sort of pill or spark move am I going to use to justify defending against...a move that costs no spark and comes back in 15s...

Damage-wise, I might compare that with the ZTP combo that I use, which incidentally costs 1.3 spark, a pill, and has a LOT more cd that also limits defensive options. Archers also lack the setup sins get to effectively use death combos like that.

Personally, my opinion of sins in the context of balance is that other classes are at least catching up, in mass PvP if not solo PvP.

Several classes have become big contenders, and I'm surprised no one has noticed the solo power of venos in all this.

Almost all classes, unless you are playing archer.

XXHotXx - Morai

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Elimination cannot be treated like most combos because it has almost no cost...What sort of pill or spark move am I going to use to justify defending against...a move that costs no spark and comes back in 15s...

Damage-wise, I might compare that with the ZTP combo that I use, which incidentally costs 1.3 spark, a pill, and has a LOT more cd that also limits defensive options. Archers also lack the setup sins get to effectively use death combos like that.

Personally, my opinion of sins in the context of balance is that other classes are at least catching up, in mass PvP if not solo PvP.

Several classes have become big contenders, and I'm surprised no one has noticed the solo power of venos in all this.

Almost all classes, unless you are playing archer.

Demon venos are ****ing scary xD especially if you dont have deaden nerves\cornered or tidal,

self buffs, full buffs, it wont matter if ironwood-antinomy goes in you take averagely 35k+ non crit whatever the class you are