Sins just stop it

peckked

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

Im pretty sure you are a sin player, or you just rerolled assassin... way too biased[/Q]

You're right.. I am biased. And I'm aware that I am. I can admit to it and consequently present information rationally with information to back it up. This is where you being correct ends. You on the other hand pull numbers out of the air and validate them by stomping your feet and saying "Nuh-uh." That sounds a lot more biased both in thought and presentation. It also shows a significant amount of ignorance.

So let's start the long road of ripping apart everything you said.

1. An endgame 3x105 sin has between 85 and 90% crit rate.

A 3x105 character has about 1015 stat points to play around with (from level, gear(R93/NV3), tome, weapon, engravings) between str and their main stat. A sin requires 105 str leaving 910 for dex, or 45 crit. Let's say they have 6 crit on their weapon, 6 from 2 NW rings, 3 from Emperor tome, 3 from NW neck, 8 from R93 armor. Let's not forget 10 from passives.

1+45+6+6+3+3+8+10 = 82

And while engravings and war avatars can still bring this up a little more, 90 is going to be far from the reality for most endgame 105 sins. As I said before you corrected me with magical made up numbers, maybe 85.

2. Any clever sin has lvl 10 WE for 30% more Crit damage

This is purely your opinion and cannot be substantiated one way or another.

3. Damage - Normal = 23.625k (16% chance) "more like 10-15%"

This "correction" has to be the most blatantly ignorant response. If GoF has a 20% chance to proc, and a player has 80% crit leaving 20% for normal hits, than of that 20%, on average 4% will zerk, and 16% won't - these 16% being normal, non-crit, non-zerk hits.

4. So while the wizard has 65% chance to deliver 28k, sin has 85% chance to deliver between 47k and 103k

This could be the poster child for a biased presentation. You compare a % of low end damage of wizzy to a % of high end damage on a sin. This is comparing apples and oranges as the % don't correlate. I could do the same. Watch!

"So while the sin has an 84% chance to deliver between 23-52k, wizzy has 35% chance to deliver 57k." <-- Biased

5. 35% of the times the wizard will crit for double damage while the rest 65% of the times he will deal base damage, an assassin will deal base damage only 10-15% of the times while the rest of the 85% of the times he will be dealing double to four times base damage

This is accurate, however the way you're pulling it apart does not represent all the facts, merely the ones that skew in favor of your bias. Again I could do the same saying something like "A wizzy's crit with a 35% chance has better damage than 65% of a sins attacks."

6. no it's not, my wizard with r9r3+12 and lvl80 S set has 50k peak on full buffs, while there are sins w\o my gears with 35k value

So I ran the numbers and seems you were about right about the wizzy if maybe a little low.. and we were both wrong about the sin. Endgame physical attack of a sin is 30k. That is with battle and destroyer S cards levelled to 80.

Because I know you'll toss random numbers out to refute this let me present it to you.

Wizzy
1015 stats; 55 in str, 960 in mag, 20% from mastery. This gives a total multiplier of 10.8.
Base weapon damage
- 2640 from +12 weapon
- 150 from shards
- 280 from maxed meridian
- 1014 from S battle/destroyer level 80
- 150 from nuema (dunno values past level 5 >.> so that's what I used)
- 376 from rings
- 125 from titles (just an estimate)
- 100 from helm engraving
Total Base weapon damage = 4835

10.8*4835 = 52218 Base Magic attack. Also I should mention I've a friend with 51.5k.

Sin
1015 stats; 105 in str, 910 in dex, 90% from mastery. This gives a multiplier of 8 after rounding up.
Base weapon damage:
- 1906 from +12 weapon
- 150 from shards
- 210 from maxed meridian
- 760 from S battle/destroyer level 80
- 150 from nuema (dunno values past level 5 >.> so that's what I used)
- 376 from rings
- 125 from titles (just an estimate)
- 100 from helm engraving
Total Base weapon damage = 3777

8*3777 = 30216 Base Physical Attack

7. let's not open a useless debuff debate, especially not after lvl 10 passive and sage tidal please

Strawman. But I agree it's a useless debate.

8. and here you can see how biased is your opinion, an undinesparked sin with 40k fire res will never suffer enough damage to get a bypass, admitted your debuffs will both go past tidal, while the sin can anytime purge or mire the wizard

A sin doesn't have 40k mdef. I'll save a bit of space and let you break it down for yourself if you want. I was also trying to be open to the fact that a wizzy or sin won't just be fighting the other class. But you seem focused on steering this discussion away from damage in general. Sin purge can't be randomly called upon and expected to work and Mire will only take about 1/3 of your Stone Barrier. Really surprised you bring up the purge bow as being a valid threat which has like 2-4% chance of working, meanwhile you consider the 33% chance to get past tidal an impossible hurdle to overcome, in the same sentence no less!

9. elimination it's not just the 120% last hit, it is 320% and adds 900% weapon damage aswell, also wizard weapon has the lowest weapon damage among Arcane Classes, do you actually realize how dangerious it is a base damage multiplier like that combined with a 3spark and granted crits + 40% passive amp + 30% passive amp + chance of 4 times the damage?

Let's break this down.
a) Sins have the lowest weapon damage period.. pointless point.
b) I happen to know exactly how effective a base multiplier of 320%. Unsparked, it's about the same as other fast skills a sin had even before the expansion. 3 sparked it is absolutely nuts... Though if this is to be considered it's ideal form, you might say that Elimination has a cost of 3 sparks and a channel/cast time of 5.6 seconds which can hardly be called no cost. Link.
c) 900% weapon damage as bleed... This isn't a factor since it's not possible to crit or GoF, and isn't affected by attack levels. How much damage do you take from one hit from a sin APSing you in APS gear if they don't crit/zerk? That's how much damage this does over 9s - 1 auto attack.

10. spark has a thousand counters, assassin passive amps and tidal dont have any counters

More strawman. We were talking about elimination, which also has "a thousand counters." And as far as passive buffs go we could say the same for a wizzies' pdef buff, or seekers' def level buff, or psys' voodoo - the list goes on and with the possible exception of archers can be said of almost any class. Tidal has a few counters I can think of off the top of my head. 1) Kite and wait it out. 2) Overwhelming damage. 3) Spam debuffs for 1 in 3 chance to proc. More often than not 2 attempts at a spark combo will see one of them going through tidal.

11. cause to deploy elimination damage (320% base) a wizard has to 3spark blade tempest for 5 spark cost and minutes of cooldown on skills and apothecary? w\o considering the chann+cast times that are a huge giveaway
and elimination is pretty much spammable respect any other combo you listed over here

Actually, to get 320% base with no adds you need to use 2-3 damage skills. It's really that simple. You could use Frozen Flame and do more damage than Blade Tempest with half the channel time and no chi cost with ~20% chance to stun through tidal. Oh but 20% isn't worth it right, and the damage looks low on my log 'cause it's broken into 2 hits right? Sandfall also does more damage with no chi cost and has an 11% chance to stun through tidal. Actually, with Essential Sutra or with demon spark and ~30% -chan base you can get in the same 320% if not better in the same span of time (with a slower recovery due to cast times) - and it also scales with your 3 spark.

---

In the end, the only thing you said that was accurate was that I'm biased and I play a sin. It is true. But I can take a step back and look at things objectively with reason and logic, and every now and again think outside the box. Can you?

bloodedone87

peckked wrote: »

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

Im pretty sure you are a sin player, or you just rerolled assassin... way too biased[/Q]

You're right.. I am biased. And I'm aware that I am. I can admit to it and consequently present information rationally with information to back it up. This is where you being correct ends. You on the other hand pull numbers out of the air and validate them by stomping your feet and saying "Nuh-uh." That sounds a lot more biased both in thought and presentation. It also shows a significant amount of ignorance.

So let's start the long road of ripping apart everything you said.

1. An endgame 3x105 sin has between 85 and 90% crit rate.

A 3x105 character has about 1015 stat points to play around with (from level, gear(R93/NV3), tome, weapon, engravings) between str and their main stat. A sin requires 105 str leaving 910 for dex, or 45 crit. Let's say they have 6 crit on their weapon, 6 from 2 NW rings, 3 from Emperor tome, 3 from NW neck, 8 from R93 armor. Let's not forget 10 from passives.

1+45+6+6+3+3+8+10 = 82

And while engravings and war avatars can still bring this up a little more, 90 is going to be far from the reality for most endgame 105 sins. As I said before you corrected me with magical made up numbers, maybe 85.

2. Any clever sin has lvl 10 WE for 30% more Crit damage

This is purely your opinion and cannot be substantiated one way or another.

3. Damage - Normal = 23.625k (16% chance) "more like 10-15%"

This "correction" has to be the most blatantly ignorant response. If GoF has a 20% chance to proc, and a player has 80% crit leaving 20% for normal hits, than of that 20%, on average 4% will zerk, and 16% won't - these 16% being normal, non-crit, non-zerk hits.

4. So while the wizard has 65% chance to deliver 28k, sin has 85% chance to deliver between 47k and 103k

This could be the poster child for a biased presentation. You compare a % of low end damage of wizzy to a % of high end damage on a sin. This is comparing apples and oranges as the % don't correlate. I could do the same. Watch!

"So while the sin has an 84% chance to deliver between 23-52k, wizzy has 35% chance to deliver 57k." <-- Biased

5. 35% of the times the wizard will crit for double damage while the rest 65% of the times he will deal base damage, an assassin will deal base damage only 10-15% of the times while the rest of the 85% of the times he will be dealing double to four times base damage

This is accurate, however the way you're pulling it apart does not represent all the facts, merely the ones that skew in favor of your bias. Again I could do the same saying something like "A wizzy's crit with a 35% chance has better damage than 65% of a sins attacks."

6. no it's not, my wizard with r9r3+12 and lvl80 S set has 50k peak on full buffs, while there are sins w\o my gears with 35k value

So I ran the numbers and seems you were about right about the wizzy if maybe a little low.. and we were both wrong about the sin. Endgame physical attack of a sin is 30k. That is with battle and destroyer S cards levelled to 80.

Because I know you'll toss random numbers out to refute this let me present it to you.

Wizzy
1015 stats; 55 in str, 960 in mag, 20% from mastery. This gives a total multiplier of 10.8.
Base weapon damage
- 2640 from +12 weapon
- 150 from shards
- 280 from maxed meridian
- 1014 from S battle/destroyer level 80
- 150 from nuema (dunno values past level 5 >.> so that's what I used)
- 376 from rings
- 125 from titles (just an estimate)
- 100 from helm engraving
Total Base weapon damage = 4835

10.8*4835 = 52218 Base Magic attack. Also I should mention I've a friend with 51.5k.

Sin
1015 stats; 105 in str, 910 in dex, 90% from mastery. This gives a multiplier of 8 after rounding up.
Base weapon damage:
- 1906 from +12 weapon
- 150 from shards
- 210 from maxed meridian
- 760 from S battle/destroyer level 80
- 150 from nuema (dunno values past level 5 >.> so that's what I used)
- 376 from rings
- 125 from titles (just an estimate)
- 100 from helm engraving
Total Base weapon damage = 3777

8*3777 = 30216 Base Physical Attack

7. let's not open a useless debuff debate, especially not after lvl 10 passive and sage tidal please

Strawman. But I agree it's a useless debate.

8. and here you can see how biased is your opinion, an undinesparked sin with 40k fire res will never suffer enough damage to get a bypass, admitted your debuffs will both go past tidal, while the sin can anytime purge or mire the wizard

A sin doesn't have 40k mdef. I'll save a bit of space and let you break it down for yourself if you want. I was also trying to be open to the fact that a wizzy or sin won't just be fighting the other class. But you seem focused on steering this discussion away from damage in general. Sin purge can't be randomly called upon and expected to work and Mire will only take about 1/3 of your Stone Barrier. Really surprised you bring up the purge bow as being a valid threat which has like 2-4% chance of working, meanwhile you consider the 33% chance to get past tidal an impossible hurdle to overcome, in the same sentence no less!

9. elimination it's not just the 120% last hit, it is 320% and adds 900% weapon damage aswell, also wizard weapon has the lowest weapon damage among Arcane Classes, do you actually realize how dangerious it is a base damage multiplier like that combined with a 3spark and granted crits + 40% passive amp + 30% passive amp + chance of 4 times the damage?

Let's break this down.
a) Sins have the lowest weapon damage period.. pointless point.
b) I happen to know exactly how effective a base multiplier of 320%. Unsparked, it's about the same as other fast skills a sin had even before the expansion. 3 sparked it is absolutely nuts... Though if this is to be considered it's ideal form, you might say that Elimination has a cost of 3 sparks and a channel/cast time of 5.6 seconds which can hardly be called no cost. Link.
c) 900% weapon damage as bleed... This isn't a factor since it's not possible to crit or GoF, and isn't affected by attack levels. How much damage do you take from one hit from a sin APSing you in APS gear if they don't crit/zerk? That's how much damage this does over 9s - 1 auto attack.

10. spark has a thousand counters, assassin passive amps and tidal dont have any counters

More strawman. We were talking about elimination, which also has "a thousand counters." And as far as passive buffs go we could say the same for a wizzies' pdef buff, or seekers' def level buff, or psys' voodoo - the list goes on and with the possible exception of archers can be said of almost any class. Tidal has a few counters I can think of off the top of my head. 1) Kite and wait it out. 2) Overwhelming damage. 3) Spam debuffs for 1 in 3 chance to proc. More often than not 2 attempts at a spark combo will see one of them going through tidal.

11. cause to deploy elimination damage (320% base) a wizard has to 3spark blade tempest for 5 spark cost and minutes of cooldown on skills and apothecary? w\o considering the chann+cast times that are a huge giveaway
and elimination is pretty much spammable respect any other combo you listed over here

Actually, to get 320% base with no adds you need to use 2-3 damage skills. It's really that simple. You could use Frozen Flame and do more damage than Blade Tempest with half the channel time and no chi cost with ~20% chance to stun through tidal. Oh but 20% isn't worth it right, and the damage looks low on my log 'cause it's broken into 2 hits right? Sandfall also does more damage with no chi cost and has an 11% chance to stun through tidal. Actually, with Essential Sutra or with demon spark and ~30% -chan base you can get in the same 320% if not better in the same span of time (with a slower recovery due to cast times) - and it also scales with your 3 spark.

---

In the end, the only thing you said that was accurate was that I'm biased and I play a sin. It is true. But I can take a step back and look at things objectively with reason and logic, and every now and again think outside the box. Can you?

Did you really took time to write all of that?b:shutup I didnt took time to read itb:chuckle

XXHotXx - Morai

peckked wrote: »

This could be the poster child for a biased presentation. You compare a % of low end damage of wizzy to a % of high end damage on a sin. This is comparing apples and oranges as the % don't correlate. I could do the same. Watch!

"So while the sin has an 84% chance to deliver between 23-52k, wizzy has 35% chance to deliver 57k." <-- Biased

allright i dont want the damage discussion to derail so i will just reply to this point

you are wrong here, 23k damage is sin's base damage after 170atk levels and its 10% chance to happen, as well as zerk is less than 10% chance to happen,

actualy the sin has lets say has 80% chance to deliver from 44k to 57k,

while wizard has 35% chance to deliver 57k

and it wasnt a childish representation since i just showed the damage that is most likely to happen:

(28k in the 65% of the times for the wiz, and from 44k to 57k in the 80% of the times for the sin)



few more things

you cant really compare a spirit blackhole purge bow that has a % to purge close to 15% and can be combined with celestial sword situationally, to the usage of character skills and genie to pull spark... one its a free resource the other deplets genie

and you cant compare wizard using 3 skills being the same as using elimination rofl xD

3 wizard skills most likely will take the entire cooldown time of elimination, so while wizard dealt pyrogram gush stone rain for 300% base damage, sin used elimination, life hunter x 4 elimination for 320 + 800 + 320 = 1440%

currently sins with maxed cards have around 33k ele res with buffs, with lvl 10 passives they will touch 40k
when you will have lvl 10 passives ask a wizard to undine spark you on full buffs, if he will hit 5 digits i ll owe you a beer

frozen flame is not 200% base damage, blade tempest is.

if you 3spark frozen flame you will have less damage respect 3sparking blade tempest simply because bt calculates base damage twice, frozen flame doesnt

and this to reach base elimination damage value, not to reach 3sparked elimination damage value

assassin class is not balanced and outDDs any other class in game by both DPH and DPS
and all this
while keeping the broken sustain that tidal and deaden nerves PASSIVELY grant

ask yourself why the other LA class fell so behind, while your class are basically gods on earth

did you watch Rinc vids perhaps? Have you ever seen any other class do what Rinc does in his videos? I guess nope

every class can be efficiently purged and CCd, not only you cant do that efficiently on assassins but they also have the best damage in game

wait a second, they devved paralyze proc. to counter high mobility classes, but noooope instead they just did a favour to assassins once again since the proc doesnt go trough tidal,

And you know, just make a team composition of "paralyzer"+sin AA and you are imba in mass pvp

peckked

*sigh* good thing I'm bored at work.

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

you are wrong here, 23k damage is sin's base damage after 170atk levels and its 10% chance to happen, as well as zerk is less than 10% chance to happen,

I'm not sure I understand this broken mess.... But to clarify, 23k is actually too high as it's based on your assumption of 35k which is not the case. GoF is 20%. This has been tested ad nauseum. Dunno where you're going with it.

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

and it wasnt a childish representation since i just showed the damage that is most likely to happen:

Never said anything about being childish... I said it was a biased presentation of partial information.

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

you cant really compare a spirit blackhole purge bow that has a % to purge close to 15% and can be combined with celestial sword situationally, to the usage of character skills and genie to pull spark... one its a free resource the other deplets genie

Spirit Blackhole on an NV2 bow has a proc rate of 2-4%... nowhere near 15%. In order to use a purge bow a sin has to forgo all of their skills and often their damage (consequently the pressure they need to apply to avoid being set up), typically need to spend the time to drop CoD, and then have a dismal proc rate to purge with a meager 20m range. So I pull out my bow and cross my fingers that my 1 in 25 chance happens sooner rather than later or most of the time waiting for around 15-20 hits (which is like 30s without applying any real pressure on the target and just tanking everything that comes). In that same 30s you could pull off 2-3 spark combos depending on your genie build, the difference of course being that you never stop DDing whereas a sin slows to a crawl.

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

and you cant compare wizard using 3 skills being the same as using elimination rofl xD

3 wizard skills most likely will take the entire cooldown time of elimination, so while wizard dealt pyrogram gush stone rain for 300% base damage, sin used elimination, life hunter x 4 elimination for 320 + 800 + 320 = 1440%

This makes no sense.. your 1440% is supposed to be what? I think you're confusing base weapon damage with base physical damage. So let me fix this for you.

Elimination
2.6sec channel/cast
Does 320% base physical damage
Life Hunter
1.4sec cast (no channel)
Does 100% base physical damage + 200% base weapon damage + 11755
11755 damage for a sin is roughly equal to 300% base weapon damage so total of 500% base weapon damage/Life hunter

Time = 2.6sec + 4*1.4sec = 8.2sec
Damage
= (320% + 4x100%) base physical damage + (500%x4) base weapon damage
= 720% base physical damage + 2000% base weapon damage
100% base physical damage is roughly equal to 800% base weapon damage therefore
= (720% + 250%) base physical damage
= 970% base physical damage <--- This is what your 1440% should be.
Since Base Physical Damage is 30k
= 291k Damage

Now let's take a look at a wizzy... what can they do in 8.2sec without any chi and with 35% -chan.

Pyro>Gush>Will of the Phoenix>Pyro>Gush

I've applied the 35% -channeling to all the channel times.
Skill - Channel/Cast/Total - Damage
Pyrogram - 0.8/0.8/1.6 - 100% Base Magic Damage + 100% Base Weapon Damage + 3620
Gush - 0.7/1/1.7 - 100% Base Magic Damage + 100% Base Weapon Damage + 3390
Will of the Phoenix - 0.7/1/1.7 - 100% Base Magic Damage + 100% Base Weapon Damage +5395

Time = 1.6sec*2+1.7sec*3 = 8.3sec (close enough)
Damage
=5*100% Base Magic Attack + 5*100% Base Weapon Damage + 2*3620 + 2*3390 + 5395
=500% Base Magic Attack + 500% Base Weapon Damage + 19415
Since Base Weapon Damage is about 4835
=500% Base Magic Attack + 900% Base Weapon Damage
and since Base Magic Attack is 1080% Base Weapon Damage we get
=583% Base Magic Attack
Since Base Magic Attack is 50k we get
=291.5k <-- interesting how these are so close

Allow me to present another example, this time using 2 sparks. I'll skip all the math since you get the picture.

Essential Sutra>Undine Strike>Pyro>D.Pyro>Sandfall>Pyro>D.Pyro>Frozen Flame

This takes 7.1 seconds and produces 399k damage even if Undine doesn't get past tidal.

The sins 2 spark equivalent

Subsea>Elimination>Life Hunter>Life Hunter

This takes 7 seconds and produces 278k assuming Subsea applies to all damage after and isn't purified.

The point I'm making here, I guess, is that dwelling on any one skill is pointless. No one uses one skill and simply walks away from an equally geared endgame toon.

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

currently sins with maxed cards have around 33k ele res with buffs, with lvl 10 passives they will touch 40k

Here is a sin with endgame gear. Link. I've only added the vit, mag, and mdef on the gear as they are the only contributing factors to mdef. I've added maxed meridian, level 80 durability, and a bit extra to account for nuema (500 - not sure max value) and titles (200). As you can see this sin has a base of just under 15k. With EP buffs this goes up to 22992. Adding 80% to account for passives brings this to 34955mdef or 89% damage reduction.

Undine removes 60% which essentially cancels out the EP buff resulting in 26917mdef or 87% damage reduction. This translates to about 18% increase in damage.

Level 10 Spark with 100 dex genie reduces fire def by 100%. From fully buffed with maxed passives this brings a sins fire resistance down to 20936 or 83% damage reduction. This translates to a 54% increase in damage. A 150 dex genie reduces fire def by 135% resulting in 15702 fire resistance or 79% which effectively increases the damage of your fire skills by 90%.

Just to finish off the rest of what you've said.

- If the other class is focusing on debuffs and damage then in terms of DPS then a sin will do about 10-20% more than other classes. In terms of DPH, a seeker wins that challenge hands down with their qpq combo.

- rinc's latest videos are now over 6 months old, and as I've said before he massively out carded/levelled every other player in attendance of the last couple TW videos. I know. I was there. Should I bring up the purify proc 1vs20 videos of days past as well so we can all get in on the QQ?

- yes we have the highest damage in the game, but we're, for the most part the squishiest (sins and archers share this) and fight within range of just about everyone. Consider the fact that a maxed sin has 89% damage reduction against magic, while you have 92% damage reduction vs physical. This results in 37% more magic damage going through to the sin than physical damage to the wizzy.

In the end, the metagame has changed significantly and those who can't adapt will continue to qq and find any reason to cry about it. Admittedly, sins have had the easiest time adapting this time around, but after 4 expansions that pushed sins to the edge of oblivion it's about damn time. You can continue to qq about it or you can figure out new ways to get around your problems as every class has had to do in the past as updates have changed the results of our actions.

XXHotXx - Morai

peckked wrote: »

*sigh* good thing I'm bored at work.



I'm not sure I understand this broken mess.... But to clarify, 23k is actually too high as it's based on your assumption of 35k which is not the case. GoF is 20%. This has been tested ad nauseum. Dunno where you're going with it.



Never said anything about being childish... I said it was a biased presentation of partial information.



Spirit Blackhole on an NV2 bow has a proc rate of 2-4%... nowhere near 15%. In order to use a purge bow a sin has to forgo all of their skills and often their damage (consequently the pressure they need to apply to avoid being set up), typically need to spend the time to drop CoD, and then have a dismal proc rate to purge with a meager 20m range. So I pull out my bow and cross my fingers that my 1 in 25 chance happens sooner rather than later or most of the time waiting for around 15-20 hits (which is like 30s without applying any real pressure on the target and just tanking everything that comes). In that same 30s you could pull off 2-3 spark combos depending on your genie build, the difference of course being that you never stop DDing whereas a sin slows to a crawl.

I am pretty sure you are confusing the proc chance for the barb r8r pole and g15 spirit blackhole, the chance to proc you wrote there is for soul shatter on a g15 bow, moreover you could spam celestial sword for a purge granted in a matter of seconds, sigh
yea sure 2-3 spark combos in 30 seconds when spark cooldown is 40 seconds


This makes no sense.. your 1440% is supposed to be what? I think you're confusing base weapon damage with base physical damage. So let me fix this for you.

Elimination
2.6sec channel/cast
Does 320% base physical damage
Life Hunter
1.4sec cast (no channel)
Does 100% base physical damage + 200% base weapon damage + 11755
11755 damage for a sin is roughly equal to 300% base weapon damage so total of 500% base weapon damage/Life hunter

Time = 2.6sec + 4*1.4sec = 8.2sec
Damage
= (320% + 4x100%) base physical damage + (500%x4) base weapon damage
= 720% base physical damage + 2000% base weapon damage
100% base physical damage is roughly equal to 800% base weapon damage therefore
= (720% + 250%) base physical damage
= 970% base physical damage <--- This is what your 1440% should be.
Since Base Physical Damage is 30k
= 291k Damage

Huge facepalm here, you don't even know that Life Hunter hits twice for the base damage for 200% base p damage total each time you use the skill, besides weapon damage you have 320%+ 4x (100%+100%) + 320%, re-do your maths please

Now let's take a look at a wizzy... what can they do in 8.2sec without any chi and with 35% -chan.
endgame wizards have 20ish% chann, unless you are facing a sin on mag ring and channelling cape + warsoul helmet lawl

Pyro>Gush>Will of the Phoenix>Pyro>Gush

that is 500% base magic damage

I've applied the 35% -channeling to all the channel times.
Skill - Channel/Cast/Total - Damage
Pyrogram - 0.8/0.8/1.6 - 100% Base Magic Damage + 100% Base Weapon Damage + 3620
Gush - 0.7/1/1.7 - 100% Base Magic Damage + 100% Base Weapon Damage + 3390
Will of the Phoenix - 0.7/1/1.7 - 100% Base Magic Damage + 100% Base Weapon Damage +5395

Time = 1.6sec*2+1.7sec*3 = 8.3sec (close enough)
Damage
=5*100% Base Magic Attack + 5*100% Base Weapon Damage + 2*3620 + 2*3390 + 5395
=500% Base Magic Attack + 500% Base Weapon Damage + 19415
Since Base Weapon Damage is about 4835
=500% Base Magic Attack + 900% Base Weapon Damage
and since Base Magic Attack is 1080% Base Weapon Damage we get
=583% Base Magic Attack
Since Base Magic Attack is 50k we get
=291.5k <-- interesting how these are so close

You know why your math is completely wrong?

Cause first you don't know that life hunter deals 2 times base p damage,

Second the sin wont deal just his base damage since it has 85% chance to at least crit for twice what you stated above + the missing 400% base damage from life hunter,

so lets combine the crit chances to our damages shall we?

85% of 1440% whats that? its a statistically 1220% more, that added to it makes a whole 2660% base damage
while the wiz crit rate is 35%, so statistically lets add to 500% base damage its 35% = 175% -> 675%

time to multiply those base damages sin 35k and wizard 50k shall we?

wizard = 337,5k
sin = 931k
are you seriously trying to compare assassin DPS with wizard DPS? cause this is getting ridicolous


...snip...



Here is a sin with endgame gear. Link. I've only added the vit, mag, and mdef on the gear as they are the only contributing factors to mdef. I've added maxed meridian, level 80 durability, and a bit extra to account for nuema (500 - not sure max value) and titles (200). As you can see this sin has a base of just under 15k. With EP buffs this goes up to 22992. Adding 80% to account for passives brings this to 34955mdef or 89% damage reduction.

oh please do not fool ourselves, endgame LAs currently have BASE 20000 phys and mag res, the value in that pwcalc is almost what i had on my sin before NH

Undine removes 60% which essentially cancels out the EP buff resulting in 26917mdef or 87% damage reduction. This translates to about 18% increase in damage.

Level 10 Spark with 100 dex genie reduces fire def by 100%. From fully buffed with maxed passives this brings a sins fire resistance down to 20936 or 83% damage reduction. This translates to a 54% increase in damage. A 150 dex genie reduces fire def by 135% resulting in 15702 fire resistance or 79% which effectively increases the damage of your fire skills by 90%.

Man pls what you wrote here is all wrong, i have several threads with maths and how debuffs work with full buffs+passives what you wrote there is completely wrong and i don't have the time atm to dig up all the tests that have been done with undine spark after def passives, undine strike on a full buffed endgame target with passives etch its not worth to be landed


Just to finish off the rest of what you've said.

- If the other class is focusing on debuffs and damage then in terms of DPS then a sin will do about 10-20% more than other classes. In terms of DPH, a seeker wins that challenge hands down with their qpq combo.

10-20% more lawl

- rinc's latest videos are now over 6 months old, and as I've said before he massively out carded/levelled every other player in attendance of the last couple TW videos. I know. I was there. Should I bring up the purify proc 1vs20 videos of days past as well so we can all get in on the QQ?

- yes we have the highest damage in the game, but we're, for the most part the squishiest (sins and archers share this) and fight within range of just about everyone. Consider the fact that a maxed sin has 89% damage reduction against magic, while you have 92% damage reduction vs physical. This results in 37% more magic damage going through to the sin than physical damage to the wizzy.

lawl squishiest, i cant purge or debuff your 89%, either i cant CC you, while you can tank my crappy DPS, purge me eventually and 123me down right after, but that's not even necessary if you are a deity one since you will be hitting 5digits like everytime

In the end, the metagame has changed significantly and those who can't adapt will continue to qq and find any reason to cry about it. Admittedly, sins have had the easiest time adapting this time around, but after 4 expansions that pushed sins to the edge of oblivion it's about damn time. You can continue to qq about it or you can figure out new ways to get around your problems as every class has had to do in the past as updates have changed the results of our actions.

Sage sins were already OP before this **** NH patch, fast channelling skills + all those amps, sage tidal and stealths were giving them the edge already, but w\o the defense passives my class could take his chances we were lets say 1:1, now with lvl 10 passives, the debuffs won't pretty much be significant anymore (except demon ironwood)

they would work if the gap in base damage between Debuff-based classes and Amp-based classes would be twice as much as what it is now
(and it would be like that if S+ cards were released, cause the increase in damage from S+ cards multiplied to our "better" attributes multiplier would improve the gap in base damage between Arcane and Melees classes, so that 1-2% less damage reduction you have from an undine strike will result in a significant damage improvement)

I'd say with S+ cards we would see Arcane classes close to 80k base damage and Melee close to 45k
so the gap in damage between sin and wiz won't be 50k-35k=15k but it would be 80k-45k=35k

and i believe that was the intention of the devs, have some kind of balance at very very very endgame

but current metagame, with even S sets being so rare, is completely broken

muchwordssowow

peckked

There's gotta be a language barrier or something 'cause you don't seem to understand anything I say clearly. Either that or... nvm.

I had meant to say spark/undine combo.

Well if you believe a sin can use elimination twice in 8 seconds then I dunno what I can possibly do to help you. Or that Life Hunter does 200% base physical damage.. it reads, "dealing base physical damage
plus 200% of weapon damage plus 11755 per hit"... See that! Different words O.O I highly recommend you learn to read.. then maybe read this. *Spoiler* Base Weapon Damage and Base Physical Attack are 2 different figures.

As far as a sins resistance goes, that's the best I can provide you with as evidence. It's not perfect but it's still better than the *nothing* you've shown. Back it up if you're so sure.

I just looked up Celestial Sword 'cause you had me confused as I didn't recall it being able to purge. Here's what it said:

Forms a magical blade out of pure Chi to attack the target.
Every 100 Energy causes 5.0 physical damage.
100 percent accuracy.

Strength: Every Genie Strength point doubles the damage.

I don't see purge here. Unless this is a glitch I'm unaware of it doesn't look like this purges.

I maintain that you are horribly wrong about purge proc on bows. Not that you'd actually look it up or ask around.

At first I was amused, and was genuinely trying to help you see outside the box, but this has just become sad. Keep feeling victimized. Keep doing what your doing and cry yourself to sleep at night because you're too blind or stubborn to adapt. It's healthy...

You spend all this time complaining and you don't know anything about what you're complaining about. That's no worries though. No one will hear you here that can change whatever it is that has your panties in a bunch. And if by chance someone did drop by you just demonstrated a severe lack of knowledge and hopefully it's recognized and you are consequently ignored.

I'll leave you to continue damaging the intelligence of anyone who cares to listen. I'm not interested in your other threads if this is how you think. I value my cognitive abilities far too much to subject myself to more of this mental torture.

XXHotXx - Morai

peckked wrote: »

There's gotta be a language barrier or something 'cause you don't seem to understand anything I say clearly. Either that or... nvm.

You are proving points based on wrong maths or facts

I had meant to say spark/undine combo.

Well if you believe a sin can use elimination twice in 8 seconds then I dunno what I can possibly do to help you.

aye my bad well we can calculate elimination, 12 seconds of life hunters, and elimination again compared to what a wizard can pull in terms of DPS, you won't like the maths

Or that Life Hunter does 200% base physical damage.. it reads, "dealing base physical damage
plus 200% of weapon damage plus 11755 per hit"... See that! Different words O.O I highly recommend you learn to read.. then maybe read this. *Spoiler* Base Weapon Damage and Base Physical Attack are 2 different figures.

Life hunter calculates two times the base damage for actually 200% base physical damage, not weapon damage, each strike of life hunter is base damage + 200% weapon damage + 11755, if you were not aware of that i suggest you to get to learn your class better before coming on forums and debate, when you calculated life hunter damage you wrote 4x100% , that's incorrect, it's 4x (100%+100%)

As far as a sins resistance goes, that's the best I can provide you with as evidence. It's not perfect but it's still better than the *nothing* you've shown. Back it up if you're so sure.

I just looked up Celestial Sword 'cause you had me confused as I didn't recall it being able to purge. Here's what it said:

Forms a magical blade out of pure Chi to attack the target.
Every 100 Energy causes 5.0 physical damage.
100 percent accuracy.

Strength: Every Genie Strength point doubles the damage.

I don't see purge here. Unless this is a glitch I'm unaware of it doesn't look like this purges.

I maintain that you are horribly wrong about purge proc on bows. Not that you'd actually look it up or ask around.

Celestial Sword is a 5 years old genie skill that procs weapon proc, if you have purge bow it will trigger purge, but ofc you are the guru, prove me wrong with more wrong facts


At first I was amused, and was genuinely trying to help you see outside the box, but this has just become sad. Keep feeling victimized. Keep doing what your doing and cry yourself to sleep at night because you're too blind or stubborn to adapt. It's healthy...

This is not thinking outside the box, you are just saying that assassin DPS is comparable to wizard DPS, which is total BS

You spend all this time complaining and you don't know anything about what you're complaining about. That's no worries though. No one will hear you here that can change whatever it is that has your panties in a bunch. And if by chance someone did drop by you just demonstrated a severe lack of knowledge and hopefully it's recognized and you are consequently ignored.

I believe you demonstrated so far sever lack of knowledge:

Not having cognition of:

Life hunter dealing twice the base physical damage
Spark genie skill having a 40 seconds cooldown
Celestial Sword procing weapon proc
Spirit blackhole with a chance to proc surely higher than the 4% you stated

Also you compared (with also bad maths):

An assassin that never crits or zerks, or zerkcrits elimination life hunter elimination,

which is a thing that statistically doesnt happen since for each strike the sin has:

just 12% not to crit or to zerk or to zerkcrit = 100% damage
68% chance to crit for double damage + WE = 230% damage
3% chance to zerk = 200% damage
17% to zerkcrit = 430% damage

to wizard damage


I'll leave you to continue damaging the intelligence of anyone who cares to listen. I'm not interested in your other threads if this is how you think. I value my cognitive abilities far too much to subject myself to more of this mental torture.

It's frustrating when you lose an argument isn't it?

kthxbye

peckked

I'll just leave you with this.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1687741

Smarten up.

XXHotXx - Morai

peckked wrote: »

I'll just leave you with this.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1687741

Smarten up.

lawl description error my ***, wonder why that thread didnt even get a single reply...

peckked

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

lawl description error my ***, wonder why that thread didnt even get a single reply...

You are absolutely hopeless.

XXHotXx - Morai

peckked wrote: »

You are absolutely hopeless.

as hopeless as "the assassin DPS is equal to wizard DPS" statement? b:laughb:cryb:laugh

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

lawl description error my ***, wonder why that thread didnt even get a single reply...

Except that he's right, the damage stated on the skill is the skills total damage, it doesnt hit twice for that damage.
Don't act so surprised over PWE's incompetence when it comes to translating the skills properly lol.

Fact remains that balance is a long way ahead, and it's unlikely to ever come into PWI.

Anyway regarding the skill, the description is misleading and when translating it from the chinese original description it should read something along the lines of:

Hit the enemy twice, resulting in a total of 200% weapon damage +11755

instead of saying it deals that per hit.

I do also remember that on the chinese forums a LOT of players actually complained about the sin skills...
But it were sins who were complaining that they regret getting the merger(s)...
I'm not entirely sure why though

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Except that he's right, the damage stated on the skill is the skills total damage, it doesnt hit twice for that damage.
Don't act so surprised over PWE's incompetence when it comes to translating the skills properly lol.

Fact remains that balance is a long way ahead, and it's unlikely to ever come into PWI.

Anyway regarding the skill, the description is misleading and when translating it from the chinese original description it should read something along the lines of:



instead of saying it deals that per hit.

I do also remember that on the chinese forums a LOT of players actually complained about the sin skills...
But it were sins who were complaining that they regret getting the merger(s)...
I'm not entirely sure why though

It has to do with cast/channel times. With the original skills you could react better to any change happening around you. With the new skills you are locked into cast animations which results in lowering the ability to react, and thus, making it harder to actually PvP.

You can see this with Cursed Jail vs Headhunt. Cursed Jail takes about .5 secs to activate the stun, while headhunt is instant, this results in people being able to AD before Cursed jail actually stuns your opponent, which locks you into a 2.5 sec cast animation. That will get you killed.

Quilue - Sanctuary

If you can force out AD that easily you've won.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you can force out AD that easily you've won.

Like i said. 2.5 secs is enough time for someone (mystics especially), to crit you for upteen numbers during that AD, and you can't do anything, because you are locked into a cast animation.

The point wasn't just forcing out the AD, it was during that time you can't cancel the skill. And you just wasted 2 sparks.

A mistake like that will cost you.

Suprprutty - Lost City

Just 2 spark eliminaton to kill everything. No need for cursed jail or other gimmicks. Sin PvP never been easier.

Zanryu - Lothranis

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Like i said. 2.5 secs is enough time for someone (mystics especially), to crit you for upteen numbers during that AD, and you can't do anything, because you are locked into a cast animation.

The point wasn't just forcing out the AD, it was during that time you can't cancel the skill. And you just wasted 2 sparks.

A mistake like that will cost you.

Kek.

I guess Deaden and Sins with genies aren't a thing

Dblazen - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Kek.

I guess Deaden and Sins with genies aren't a thing

Genies and apo are for casual plebs, step up or leave.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Dblazen - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Genies and apo are for casual plebs, step up or leave.

But but... okay

elvenkilleres

That's how u know a class is op when this old thread is still going lol.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Suprprutty - Lost City wrote: »

Just 2 spark eliminaton to kill everything. No need for cursed jail or other gimmicks. Sin PvP never been easier.

To be fair its even easier to kill on a seeker, archer, or ANY other caster class that has range... granted it has quite a bit to do with the gear gap/ability to just TAB > one shot > repeat. (Gear gaps will always be a part of the game. )

mihybrid

sontzu wrote: »

How nice to see such an original and unique post. Never have I seen anything like this before.
Never.
Ever.




Except every week since they put sins in the game


Please change the round flat black vinyl object, or at least post your qqing in the correct section (which would be the forums on a different website altogether). Seriously. Please.

Amazing; I come back to a game after an 18 month break to a game that Clerics Sleep you long enough to kill RRR9 jsod Barbs, characters that Reel you in, everybody has a Stun skill or some form of Shadow Step it seems, there are pills taken and skills learned to avoid stun for and by all and here we are. Whinning about how "OP" Sins are? The most OP Class in the game are Archers if you know how to play it and invest some coins. Heck I want them to give us Into. On our R9 gear so we can continue playing the character the way most of us learned to. Not other Character in the game has to relearn their toon when they spend 3 grand for R9, refining and Shards. So, get over it or learn to play your Character. God I'm glad they did away with that Zhen mess and hypering FC.

Auerlius - Archosaur

OPKossy wrote: »

You forgot to add, "And how many of the few mystics that are around have both the gear AND the skill required to put whatever OPness the class supposedly has to use?"

While an assassin is insanely powerful, a sin in APS setup isn't doing jack squat against any endgame player with two brain cells to rub together... and an endgame sin who doesn't have a clue what he's doing isn't going to be much of a problem to an endgame player who knows how to play. Same thing would apply to Mystics... except there's a lot less Mystics than there are assassins.

wow a few months ago i put all what people are saying now into play, and i was savagely attacked for it. ofc a skilled player beats a non skilled one. thing is, let's say there's a skill chart with 1 being a nab and 10 being a pro. someone with skill 3 can a sin can beat someone with a skill of 5 consistently on most classes except maybe a barb. it's w/e at this point since anything anyone says to extrapolate how horrendously unbalanced and underthought the game dynamics are here when it comes to 1v1 pvp is met with the callous disdain [that is mod supported most of the time].

SweetieBot - Lothranis

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

wow a few months ago i put all what people are saying now into play, and i was savagely attacked for it. ofc a skilled player beats a non skilled one. thing is, let's say there's a skill chart with 1 being a nab and 10 being a pro. someone with skill 3 can a sin can beat someone with a skill of 5 consistently on most classes except maybe a barb. it's w/e at this point since anything anyone says to extrapolate how horrendously unbalanced and underthought the game dynamics are here when it comes to 1v1 pvp is met with the callous disdain [that is mod supported most of the time].

This looks like a NECRO!

Auerlius - Archosaur replied to a message that was 2 months 6 days 20 hours 7 minutes old.

Any thread over one month (30 days) old is considered to be a dead thread and you're not supposed to post in them. The person you are replying to probably doesn't care any more or can no longer be found on the forums. The topic itself could be out of date. Next time just make a new thread.

Let's see how long it takes for a mod to close this

opkossy

Just couldn't let the dead thread stay dead could you?